Alternate Sorcery Systems

[RPGPundit]

There is a feeling, which may well be correct, that of all the ruleset of Amber Diceless, the rules on sorcery are the weakest in construction.

This leads me to think that no doubt a lot of people have probably tried alternate systems.  Has anyone here tried any they'd care to describe?

For my part, I've always pretty well used sorcery as-is, though I admit that at times I've dabbled with the thought of changing it.  Sometimes I've considered directly replacing it altogether, with some other kind of system, but I've never figured out which would quite fit what we see in Amber.  

Recently, I've thought a lot about doing something that didn't really fit the Amber setting at all, just for kicks, possibly based on WFRP's magic system.

Interestingly enough, a recent RPG I've received for review (Promised Sands) has a system of magic based on combining elemental "nouns" to create spells, that reminds me of the lynchpin system described vaguely in the novels.  This has got my wheels turning about trying to adapt this to Amber.

RPGPundit

[finarvyn]

I've talked with one of the early playtesters of ADRP and she told me about a pre-publication version of the Sorcery rules which were about 2 pages in length and were exceptionally freeform. Sadly, she no longer had a copy of these rules.

Apparently, the current Sorcery rules were created specifically for publication in the ADRP rulebook and aren't actually the same as the playtested version.

Erick confirmed this but didn't have any of his notes nearby, so he couldn't check to see if he had any more information at this time.

[Otha]

I agree that the Sorcery rules in ADRP don't fit in well with the rest of it, more complex by far.

I think just making a list of what sorcery can and cannot do, the way Pattern, Logrus, etc. are described, would be sufficient.

[finarvyn]

I always found the Lynchpin system of Sorcery to be interesting, yet quite limiting. The net effect seems to be that Sorcery becomes virtually worthless unless exacting conditions can be met, and a clever opponent can manage to maneuver around those conditions if he/she is aware of them in advance.

I know that this effect is intentional because the intent of the ADRP is to simulate somewhat Zelazny's books, and Sorcery is clearly inferior in the source material.

Still, where other powers appear to be useful in many circumstances, Sorcery appears to be useful in very few.

[Arref]

I always found the Lynchpin system of Sorcery to be interesting, yet quite limiting. The net effect seems to be that Sorcery becomes virtually worthless unless exacting conditions can be met, and a clever opponent can manage to maneuver around those conditions if he/she is aware of them in advance.

I know that this effect is intentional because the intent of the ADRP is to simulate somewhat Zelazny's books, and Sorcery is clearly inferior in the source material.

Still, where other powers appear to be useful in many circumstances, Sorcery appears to be useful in very few.

Intentional and desirable.

The canon obviously intends for this to be true. Or to put it another way, name a place in the canon where sorcery changes a scene or plot moment. There is drama and flash to sorcery (style points, if you will), but seldom a spot where blade and fist don't carry the day.

I agree that the whole needs to be streamlined to a set of simple rules for how it all works in relation to the greater powers in the game.

[Volkazz]

Ars Magica's verb & noun system, surely...

V.

[Otha]

That's a good one but probably even more complicated than the ADRP system.

I think just throwing out the lynchpin system, with its definitions of what lynchpins ARE and leave it as mere color would be sufficient.  A player just writes down what any racked spell DOES, and then have the GM make spells more likely to fail when the sorceror doesn't know the local magic.

[PhishStyx]

name a place in the canon where sorcery changes a scene or plot moment.

In fact, the duel between Merlin and Dara and Mandor is entirely sorcerous in nature. They throw lots of magic back and forth.

[Otha]

Aren't there also some sorcerous duels over the Keep of the Four Winds?

[Arref]

Let me preface by saying that Zelazny is my favorite writer.

In fact, the duel between Merlin and Dara and Mandor is entirely sorcerous in nature. They throw lots of magic back and forth.

That's a bad example (or a great one depending on what you think of the plot.)

While the narrative doesn't give us much insight into how Mandor and Dara have prepared for that fight, the battle of two experienced aggressive Chaos intriguers against Merlin is not really in doubt from the build-up. It's purpose in the plot is to chop the 'apron strings' that have been a subplot through Merlin's story.

Two advanced spellcasters against one savant with a spikard? I think Zelazny gives us plenty of foreshadow of how this fight is going to go. Sorcerors quickly run out of prepared material: Merlin makes this comment. Once the skillful preparations are exhausted, it is raw power being splashed around, and spikards win this kind of fight against a gaggle of opponents.

The sorcerous duel at the Keep of Four Worlds is a better example. What shifts that battle to resolution? Julia taking a dagger to the side and Jurt deciding to teleport out with her.

Magic against an unprepared opponent works fine.
Magic against a prepared opponent is largely flash.
IMHO

[Arref]

There is a feeling, which may well be correct, that of all the ruleset of Amber Diceless, the rules on sorcery are the weakest in construction.

This leads me to think that no doubt a lot of people have probably tried alternate systems.  Has anyone here tried any they'd care to describe?

What I've been doing is using magic as a tool for information. The best use of magic might be getting hidden info before a fight or discovering other magic so you can defend yourself.

I ask sorcerors to have spell lists, so I can anticipate functions/impacts desired. I treat most 'combat' spells as wounding attacks with special effects.

I base all magic damage on the same premise as tech damage or blade damage: that is each is designed to do enough hurt to lame/kill a mortal. This means magic has much less impact on a healthy amberite (roughly 25% the harmful force.)

With these assumptions, I've never had trouble getting sorcerors to understand the genre expectations.

[Otha]

Yes, a gun or a blade is designed to maim or kill a mortal, but a stick of dynamite or a tank gun isn't.

What if a spell is designed to flatten a castle?

[Arref]

What if a spell is designed to flatten a castle?

Which is the same question, I suppose, as "what if a megaton fusion bomb is used on a command post?"

In my genre game experience, if sorcerors create these mega-spells they rarely have any place to use them. That would change if you had a king/army you wanted removed in an impressive fashion.

And Eric did use nukes on Corwin/Bleys' army. Canon support and all that.

So my answer tries to define the 'backstory' to the spell/tech/weapon. Tech has its own style and manners. You can order a fanatic to use a fusion bomb on strangers. You can steal a fusion bomb. You can know enough tech to set one off, even if you didn't design it.

There is little point in telling a PC that s/he can't do this (or that it isn't canon). So as GM, I want the story behind the device. How did you corrupt the officials to get the bomb? How long did you search shadow?

This answer informs the answer about the spell for flattening castles. The difference (favorable, IMHO) is that sorcerors can steal spells, but still have to do the prep and carry around the racked energy. (Setting aside that you could just get a sorceror to do this for you.)

So again, I don't say "no"... I ask about style and process. In this, I use a rule of thumb pulled from the ADRPG ranks: ranking up is about 1.5x to 2x as good.

Castle flattening is killing something like 100 to 1000 people in one brute attack. That would be six to nine rank steps. Starting from the basic magic premise that 'wounding' magic levels are the starting point, the PC needs to show six to nine times the effort to create and maintain the 'flatten castle' spell.

If a basic spell takes two hours to rig: 'flatten castle' takes 18 hours. Time is a resource that is strictly monitored by the GM. Fast-time shadows work oddly and spells constructed in fast-time are less predicatable.

The spell still needs a lynchpin, local magic key and line of sight delivery. Basic rules of discovery, defense and dispell still apply. Discovery/attunement of magic spells to a strange shadow takes a couple hours.

Now if your question was more: "Can I kill a couple of amberites in yonder castle by spell from a nearby hill with my megaspell?"

The GM answer is maybe, but don't count them dead until you see the bodies.

[finarvyn]

This may be somewhat anti-ADRP in philosophy since it would add layers of complexity rather than strip them away, but I thought I would at least mention another Sorcery idea.

The idea is based on TSR's old SAGA system (and probably others), written for DragonLance and Marvel Supers. The way magic works is that a character gets a certain number of spell points and constructs a spell based on certain perameters:
* Time duration of the spell
* Area effect of the spell
* Range of the spell
and so on. A spell cost is based on adding together the sum of the points from a bunch of charts.

If this is interesting to anyone, I can track down my SAGA rules and post something more specific.

[Rel Fexive]

I like

Power Source + Casting Time + Focus = Effect + Duration + Range/Area

as a basic way of working it out.  It's essentially true for any magic system.