TheRPGSite

Ok, magic is based on the joining of sorcerous words, the more advanced version of power words, essentially. Combining these words will launch a spell.  If you do not wish to launch the spell, you must hold out one or more "Lynchpins", blank spaces in the "sentence" you are casting, that will hold the spell from being cast until its filled in.

For each spell, it takes one round to add each word; you can leave as many lynchpins open as you like, which allows the spell to stay more adaptable, but adding each lynchpin in the moment to launch it will take one round per word.

Likewise, it is possible to take the spell you have "hung" at any moment, and replace one word for another. It takes ten minutes to "take back" a word, and another round to "add" the new one.

In cases where any effect could have one or the opposite effect (ie. healing or harming), the word must be directed toward one or the other in forming the spell, so unless it is kept as a lynchpin, you must decide whether the effect will be one or the other beforehand.

Here is the list of words:

1. Structural words:
Create: this spell structure opens a shadow gate through shadow to an area where the desired element is located, "shipping" it in. If you use an elemental word with your spell and do not use "create", then for the spell to work a sufficient quantity of said element would have to already be in the area.

Direction(x): where "x" is the direction or area of effect you wish; you can place this word in order to alter the direction of an existing phenomenon, or to direct the effect of your spell. most spells that involve summoning or manipulating elements will require a "direction" structural word to work.

Duration: If this word is not used, the duration of the magical effect will be instantaneous.  If you use this word, however, you can specify a longer duration, anything from one round, up to "permanent". In any case, the duration of any spell can be cut short by someone using pattern, logrus, shifting shadow, or casting a "snuff magic" spell.

Surge: A more powerful version of the process surge power word, it will have a more significant and longer effect.  If the spell is meant to "surge" a specific element, that element will be another word in the spell. If it is meant to surge any pre-existing process, then the Surge:Any counts as two words.

Snuff: The same, but will kill any process. In this case the specific process must be included in the spell, usually left open as a lynchpin.

Alter: This word will indicate that the spell is to transform one kind of shadow object into another. Usually both objects must be specified as words; but if you specify only one word it can be used to allow you to "shape" that kind of effect (ie. "alter rock" to allow you to easily dig or bore a hole into rock). This kind of power can not affect any objects or creatures of "reality" (from Amber, or Chaos, or containing "real" power within them).

Shadow: This is the lynchpin to specify the shadow in which you are casting.  The word is often left as a lynchpin unless you're very sure of where you are going to be casting.  Sometimes magic from one shadow will work in another shadow if the shadows are similar enough, but until you try it is never a guarantee.

Target: this is if the spell is intended to work upon a particular being or type of being. The Target can be as general as "orcs" or more specific. If the target is a being of "reality", it is necessary to specify the particular target (which, at the DM's option, might require knowing the target's "True Name").
This structural word is necessary only for spells that are meant to psychically contact or affect the particular mind or body of a living being; it is not necessary for general elemental spells.  The "target" in question can also be yourself.

2. Effects:

Attribute: this, combined with surge or snuff, will temporarily magically increase the power of any of the four attributes. It will usually raise these attributes by one full rank with a surge (making them slightly better than the true holder of that rank) or decrease the attribute one full rank with a snuff. Either of these effects will dissapear instantly through the touch of pattern or logrus, or very quickly if one shifts shadow.

Mind: when combined with target, this creates a spell that allows you to make psychic contact with an individual target.

Consciousness: when combined with target, this creates a spell that can either cause someone to fall into unconsciousness or a deep coma-like sleep, or it can wake someone up; the former requires that the caster's psyche be superior unless the target doesn't resist.

Life: Affects the life force of living beings. Used on a particular target it can be directed to help regenerate injuries, effectively doubling their healing rate; or it can be used to cause a drain of life-force. On anyone with a human level of endurance, it will kill them instantly. Someone with a chaos rank of endurance will suffer long-term helplessness requiring a week of bedrest to recover, and someone with amber or higher endurance will only suffer the equivalent of an immediate blackout lasting only a few rounds (or as little as one, if one's endurance is very high).

Time: as a directed spell this effect can alter the flow of time in an area, cast as a target spell on an object it can make an object age very quickly, becoming structurally weak, or age very slowly becoming resistant to wear and tear (effectively turning that object into an effect equivalent to the conjuration effect of "Invulnerable to Conventional Weapons"). As a target spell on a creature it can be used to enhance the velocity of a creature, essentially doubling its normal speed (but also its rate of aging), or to slow the creature in time to a crawl, or even turning them, effectively, into a statue.  Cast on an unwilling creature, this spell requires psyche advantage.
Combined with Target and Direction, "time" could be used to teleport a target to any other place in the same shadow (the direction would have to specify the desired teleport location)

Magic: this is the effect of raw magic itself; combined with snuff it can be used to cancel ongoing magical effects from previous spells cast on an area, object, or person; combined with surge and target it can be used to create a magical barrier around a person, which would provide extra magical protection against other magical effects (like "snuff" counterspells, or any Targeted spell on their person). Combined with alter and direction, it could create a magical barrier that would make it impossible for anyone of less than Amber rank Psyche to cross.

(elements): all of these elements are objects that can be used (in combination with create, direction, or alter; as well as snuff and surge) to create all kinds of effects in your environment. Used with create, the spell effectively "summons" this element into an area (if "create" is not used, then the element must already be present in an area); direction can be used to make the element in question into a kind of attack (with the caster choosing the particular aesthetic of the attack, ie. a "cloud of dust" or a "Lightning bolt"), with alter it can be used to transform one element into another, or to shape that element in the environment (it could also be combined with Alter and Target/duration to make an individual temporarily immune to attacks of that element type). Surge or snuff would enhance or kill any ongoing process related to the element (this works with certain volatile elements, but not others).  The following is not a complete list of possible elements, others may be thought up by the sorcerer, with GM approval:

Dust
Dirt
Rock
Metal
glass
plastic
rubber
water
rain
steam
smoke
sound
wind
plants
gravity
inertia
electro-magnetism
light
lightning
heat
fire
magma
cold

(note: the GM should encourage clever uses of spells; ie. constructing a spell with target(self)/light/snuff could be used to reduce the refraction of light in an individual making him very difficult to see, though this would also make it harder for him to see.  Using target(other)/light/surge/direction could allow a caster to create a spell where light is used to temporarily blind an individual (or do so more permanently combined with Duration(permanent)); whereas light/create(or surge)/direction/duration would essentially create a "light" spell illuminating an area.  Likewise, "electromagnetism" could be targeted on many technological objects with the effect of damaging circuitry)

Well.. what do you all think?

RPGPundit

I'm wondering what a "round" is, in Amber terms.  It's been a while since I was deep into the rules (and my rule-book is in a box right now, along with a lot of my other books) but I don't remember things playing out in rounds, per se.  Where would that stand, relative to (say) the time it takes an Amberite third-ranked in Warfare to draw and fire a handgun?

Well, I meant by that an "action"; as in a period of time of a few seconds.  While Amber doesn't really use a formalized timekeeping system (in the sense of "one round equals 6 seconds", or "1 turn equals 30 seconds", or whatever), in actual play it tends to be that the GM goes from player to player asking them what their "actions" are in turn.  So each "word" takes one "action" to use.  Thus, if a spell has two open lynchpins, a wizard trying to "complete" the spell would take two "actions", enough time for someone else to do two things.

RPGPundit

Interesting ... I've never seen Amber played in that way.  Mostly I see combats and other such conflicts played by people telling what general stance (full defensive, opportunistic and all-out attack, for instance, are offered as stances one could take in combat) their character is going to take, and then running time forward long enough to get some interesting information (whether that's five seconds or five minutes) then taking a new stance.

Different strokes, I suppose.

Every time I've seen combat run, it was the exchange of action for action, strike for strike; except in cases where one opponent vastly outclassed the others (ie. Amberite vs. shadow humans).

RPGPundit

Interesting. I've never played "Promised Sands", but I do like the general concept of what you are describing here. Have you playtested this, or is it just theoretical?

Totally theoretical at the moment, but I'm strongly considering using this sorcery system for the next time I run Amber.

RPGPundit

Let us know how it turns out...

Bump, just because its been a while, and I'm going to be running Amber sometime soon.

RPGPundit

I'm glad you did, I had forgotten about this thread and I am likely to use these rules for my next Amber Campaign chapter (which we may start tonight). I hadn't put an emphasis on sorcery until now, and it's about time to do so.

I'm assuming that the power source for the spells is the sorcerer himself. Would using the Logrus as a power source and to store spells make them more powerful etc.?
What other powers could be used to power up spells?

Is there a limit on how many spells a Shadow sorcerer can make in a day? What about a Chaosian? An Amberite? Endurance could take care of that I'm sure, but have you thought of some kind of ratio?

When it comes to sorcery, I like to run it with three seperate levels: charms, spells and rituals.

Charms are quick and very simple (power words, basically, but the sorcerer is not limited to power words that are learned).

Spells are more complex, take more time, maybe some incantation, sigils, small sacrifice. Usually I like for spells to use a defined power source other than the character, but it can be done without with charges limited by the character's endurance. Spells can be stored.

Rituals are long, complex and very powerful. They cannot be stored and need to occur where its effects are needed. A power source is very important if lasting effects are required.

When it comes to a power source, local Shadow things can be used if the Shadow has the right properties, but won't be as powerful as something like the Logrus or a connection to the Fount of Power.
It's the way Spikards are described power source wise: a ring that pulls from many Shadow power sources to process semi-instantaneous spells.

What I like about what you've written in your first post is that it could be used for spells and rituals.

I like this system a lot oddly becuase it ties Power words in as well but also because it keeps the essence of the system that exists ie you can create your own spells and all spells are a unique working of each character (avoids tedious repetative spell lists).

I would go a step further and say power words are just singl word spells and you need to learn power words (the cantrips of the system) before you move onto spells.

Have you thought about using a basic and advanced sorcery option and perhaps allowing extra features at the advanced level ?

Lastly the round thing might be tricky in theory but I think woudl be okay in practise. I would also seem to me that you can speak whilst fighting have you considered that.

Sator arepo tenet opera rotas ....

This is interesting -- can you give a clear example of its usage?

Just to let people know, I've stickied this thread for completely selfish reasons. My next Amber campaign will begin in a question of weeks now, and I'm strongly leaning toward using this magic system.

RPGPundit

Still waiting for that clear example... :)

Well, let's say you wanted to cast a "lightning bolt".

You'd need the following lynchpins:
Create
Direction (bolt extending out from your fingertips)
Shadow (the Shadow you were casting it in)
Element: Lightning

To "hang" the spell for quicker casting later, you'd need to leave at least once of those three lynchpins open, probably "Shadow". Thus, when the moment of casting came you'd fill in the word taking up your action that "round" and the spell would be cast.

You could choose to leave two lynchpins open, for example "Shadow" and "Element"; this means that instead of a Lightning bolt the spell would become a generic attack spell, where you could fire a bolt of fire, or ice, or lightning, or magma, or whatever you wanted. However, with two lynchpins open, it would take you two rounds of action to activate the spell.

RPGPundit

Awesome. Thanks, Pundit.

The basic spells from amber in the new system:

1. Mind Touch: mind + target + direction + shadow
-direction can be "line of sight" or it can be specified as any place in the same shadow.

2. Quell: target + consciousness + snuff + shadow

3. Cardiac Arrest: target + life + snuff + shadow

4. Stone Binding: target + time + snuff + shadow

5. Invisibility: target + alter + element (light) + shadow

6. Attribute Drain: target + attribute + snuff + shadow

7. Magic armour: alter(clothes) + time + snuff + shadow
(this would let you change your clothes to be "invulnerable to normal weapons)

8. Defensive barrier: Create + element (inertia) + direction (radius around you) + shadow
(this could also have "target" added to create either a magical barrier to protect another, or have a second direction (inversed) to create a force field of entrapment)

9. Psyche ward: alter + magic + direction + shadow

10. lightning bolt: create + element (lightning) + direction + shadow
(replace element with "lava" to create a lava spell, or with any other element for a similar attack spell)

11. self- teleport: time + target + direction + shadow
-direction would be the desired location of the teleport. Target would be "self" or it could be another individual; if so you'd need a second "Direction" to indicate the person's current location.
-teleport would only work to transport you (or someone in the same shadow as you) to somewhere else in the same shadow.

RPGPundit

Sweet! Thanks for that!

I have a quick question about how you (and others) look at sorcery in Shadow. If one of the words pertains to the Shadow itself, is it sufficient to make your spell work in a Shadow not prone to magical effects to begin with?

Would it take a bit longer? End up with reduced effect? Force the sorcerer to use an Empower keyword?

There are certain shadows where Sorcery doesn't work. Someone with Sorcery can't really do anything about that; it would take someone with advanced pattern altering the fundamental laws of that shadow to change things. (that, or putting points into the shadow so you can control contents).

There are, of course, shadows where there's little or no magical tradition but sorcery still works (like our own earth).
The number of shadows where sorcery doesn't work at all are very few.

RPGPundit

Cool. That's pretty much how I run stuff too. For the most part, if a Shadow has low-magic, it simply takes much longer for spells to function, or finding a ley line or some sort of magic nexus (potentially these could link Shadows or have been Shadow paths or something of the sort). That's usually how I run things.

I like this combo system, it really meshes with how I run sorcery in my Amber games (more fluid, more intuitive, less time consuming depending on Shadow magic fields).

I think what I like a lot about it is the potential to make very complex spells with it and end up with the equivalent of rituals and such.

I made up an Amber CCg which ranked each shadow in terms of tech and Magic from 1 - 5. 1 Innert - technology in Amber, 5 uber - Magic in wonderland.

Amber came out as a T1 M3 Shadow and Chaos was a T2 M5 shadow. Earth was T3 M2 which meant that Cyberpunk would work on earth but not Star Wars (T4) or Transhuman (T5) and that there were magicians who would perform some limited Sorcery given extensive rituals and preparation.

You could easily take this and add it to Pundy's Sorcery system by modifying the ranks and using it as a multiplier to the casting time.

I made up an Amber CCg which ranked each shadow in terms of tech and Magic from 1 - 5. 1 Innert - technology in Amber, 5 uber - Magic in wonderland.

Amber came out as a T1 M3 Shadow and Chaos was a T2 M5 shadow. Earth was T3 M2 which meant that Cyberpunk would work on earth but not Star Wars (T4) or Transhuman (T5) and that there were magicians who would perform some limited Sorcery given extensive rituals and preparation.

You could easily take this and add it to Pundy's Sorcery system by modifying the ranks and using it as a multiplier to the casting time or even a minimum pyche level to cast in that environment or get a mulitiplier ... you get the idea

Thanks, JibbaJibba. That sounds really good, actually. Modifying casting time (additional words for example) to compensate for a magical level difference in Shadow.

Here's another cool bit for sorcery (obviously optional, but cool nonetheless):
In Otha's now defunct wiki game, the PCs were able to affect things that are real with sorcery by 'sacrificing' an item of substance. The power of the spell was determined by the PCs sorcery level and how much substance (how 'real') the item was. For instance, using a flower grown in Benedict's garden at Amber Castle will have more substance than one found in the realm of Amber (still real, but a bit less 'substance').
Same thing was used for conjuration: we would use items of substance to conjure things.

This might not be a perfect match for sorcery as described by the ADRP, but the concept itself seemed really cool to me. So, I could imagine that if you want to affect an amberite with a powerful spell, using a bit of their own blood or something dear to them would make the spell more likely to succeed. Perhaps it cannot be dispelled without a similar sacrifice on the end of the defending sorcerer, etc...

I had the opportunity to try the system in yesterday's game, and it worked quite well. My character used some old and brand new spells, which surprised the hell out of his opponent. Thumbs up!

Cool ideas here, also it seems like a good way to ramp of magical power with PCs only knowing a few words and then gradually increasing the number they know.

Also maybe limit the length (in words) that a spell can be in less magical Shadows.

Quote from: Daztur;255074Cool ideas here, also it seems like a good way to ramp of magical power with PCs only knowing a few words and then gradually increasing the number they know.

Also maybe limit the length (in words) that a spell can be in less magical Shadows.

Well, those are possible ideas, but not really necessary ideas.

The system limits itself, because the more words your spell has, the more time it will take to prepare and probably to cast, since if you have a lot of words, odds are you have a lot of lynchpins.

As for "less magical shadows", that's an interesting concept, but I don't know that limiting the number of words would be the way I'd go.  It might work, sure, but I might prefer to lengthen the amount of time it takes to activate each lynchpin.  So in a low-magic shadow just saying the word of power isn't enough, you have to recite this whole bullshit incantation for each part.

RPGPundit

I just thought I'd post a little update to this thread to comment that I've been using this magic system in my latest Amber campaign, several of my players have learned Sorcery, and the general opinion seems to be very favorable toward this system. In my own experience, I'd say its worked out much better than the system in the Amber book.

RPGPundit

Quoted for reference to the thrust of the question

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;180760When it comes to a power source, local Shadow things can be used if the Shadow has the right properties, but won't be as powerful as something like the Logrus or a connection to the Fount of Power.
It's the way Spikards are described power source wise: a ring that pulls from many Shadow power sources to process semi-instantaneous spells.
.

Looking at Sorcery.
I like Pundit's adapted model and am likely to use a tweaked version of it.
One thing I got from catching up on Knight of Chaos on hols was the importance of a power source for the spell.

It doesn't really appear in the ADRPG rules and even Pundy chooses not to include it.

Merlin often talks about a spell effect requiring a lot of energy. One of the real appeals of the Font is the huge amount of magical energy it offers (that and the wine cellar of course).

This would also have the effect of elminating the rather non-Amberite mass damage spells (500 feet cubed of molten lava being a good example :) )

So it seems then that another base requirement for a spell would be to name the energy source.

I get the impression that Logrus and Pattern mages can use the logrus and pattern as power sources and we can imply that the rate of access is determined by the usual  (proximity to the poles, level of skill etc etc). However, we could extend this to other primal planes (like the Font), The Abyss, Ygg, The Jewel of judgement etc etc ... You would obviously need an initiation to use a particular power source (especially if its sentient like the Pattern or Ygg)

It would be simple for the GM to rank power sources (say 1->X ) and to determine from that power score the ability to affect stuff say a 10 power source can create a 100 feet cube of Lava, for instance.

Crude magic use would require more power but you wouldn't really need to have much power to create more lightweight magics like a ward or a spell to enhance the beauty of a necklace.

I would lay down a marker for Pattern and Logrus of say 10 points each (nice round number) and say Logrus has a power level of 5 in Amber by means of getting an idea of scale.

Lastly I would score a shadow as having a base level of 'background' magical energy from 0-3 that could be used to power magics when no other source was available. With obviously highly magical shadows like wonderland coming in at the top level.

What do you think any comment?

That's a very interesting concept. I might try to make use of that in my next campaign.

RPGPundit

all that seems to be lacking there is 'personal' power. what do you think ranks in endurance are for?

how does this impact conjuring? power for points, or power for mass conjured? according to merlin, conjuring food to eat has a net positive benefit.

Quote from: Xenon;322201all that seems to be lacking there is 'personal' power. what do you think ranks in endurance are for?

how does this impact conjuring? power for points, or power for mass conjured? according to merlin, conjuring food to eat has a net positive benefit.

That's a fair point. I also noted that Merlin refers a lot to how fast stuf is summoned either via logrus or sorcery. He notes for example that Dworkin summons a meal far faster than he could and there is that meal between Jasra, Mandor and Merlin that is all about the style speed and subtly of summoning dinner.

However, I wouldn't use endurance as a power source I would use it as a limit for how long you could keep a power channel open and keeping a powerful 'pipe' open would be more draining than allowing a power source to trickle its power to you.

I had a system like that, a long time ago.

I allowed personnal power, the strength of which depended on Psyche and Strength (we're talking about raw energy there, and I figured this gave an added usefulness to it, but you could easily replace it by pure psyche, but this was draining (endurance).
Shadow power sources were limited in scope (say, Wolves, Fire, Sight) but could either provide a steady stream of magical energy, allowing an effect to theoretically last forever, or be drained dry to power a more powerfull spell or one who needed to carry its own energy supply. They also didn't require a special endurance feat, although some were harder to control than others, depending on psyche

Hum... An exemple:
I want a spell that transform someone into stone to last forever. If I find a powerful enough Shadow Magic source attuned to, say, stone or petrification, I can cast the spell on someone, linked to the source, that'll keep the effect going. If the target is moved to another shadow, the link is broken, and the spell quickly falls appart.
If the target is already in another shadow, I need a magical conduit, who'll need its own metamagic power source. This will also be very easy to spot throught shadow. Yet again, if the target is moved through shadow, the spell will fail, as the "conduit" will sooner or later be in a shadow with different magic rules, and fail => no energy => no petrification.
Or I can drain a power source to create an autonomous spell, wrapped up upon itself, which'll have a fixed duration (say, 10 years), but will be less affected by shadow shifting AND will be a lot more stealthy.

The question would be as to Pattern magic vs Logrus Magic. Would pattern magic be more powerful? It probably should be, right? Only sorcery seems to be something that is more natural to the Logrus.
How would we actually account for that in such a way that it prevented munchkin amberites from all taking "pattern sorcery" and going apeshit on the supposed chaos Arch-wizards?

RPGPundit

As a DM I would simply say that whilst you can 'theoretically' use the logrus or the pattern to power any form of magic, magic powered by pattern is going to excel at giving things a fixed form (basically fixing something to a pattern, such as petrification spells), whilst magic powered by logrus will excel at changing things or making them more chaotic (such as disguise spells). I would also allow shapeshifting or trump to power magic, and again the 'flavor' of the power source determines the type of magic which that source is best suited to.

Finally, regarding munchkin amberites taking pattern sorcery and going apeshit on the wizards of Chaos, well Logrus users have a decided advantage there (as per the rules) ... they can hang multiple spells on the logrus itself.

My 2c worth ;)

Quote from: RPGPundit;322665The question would be as to Pattern magic vs Logrus Magic. Would pattern magic be more powerful? It probably should be, right? Only sorcery seems to be something that is more natural to the Logrus.
How would we actually account for that in such a way that it prevented munchkin amberites from all taking "pattern sorcery" and going apeshit on the supposed chaos Arch-wizards?

I took a similar approach than Stormwind.

To me, the Pattern could power any sorcery giving way to control, be it mental control or telekinesis, whereas Logrus could power Transformative sorcery.
Thus, a Pattern-based spell could force someone to stay still, be it through a mental command or by physically blocking him, but could not change a staff into a sword. A logrus-based spell could petrify someone, but could not lift a sword (although you could use the tendrils, but this is another matter)

For those who know Ars Magica, I had something like this:
Pattern: Intellego + Rego
Logrus: Intellego + Muto
Abyss: Perdo
Trump: Creo
Shadow power sources: Any technique in a limited area (at most a form)

I found this system was very usefull in simulating the usefulness of the Keep of Four Worlds (Magic in 4 elements) and especially the spikards (a LOT of minor power sources, covering possibly any situation, like "blinding wolves", "creating light", "destroying undead"), while keeping the power of Pattern/Logrus/Abyss

Hmm... I will have to think. My initial reaction is that if you limited patterna nd Logrus like this then you would end up havign to limit every possible power source and crippling them as they would all need to be weaker than the poles. For example if you say a transformation spells are Chaos based and control spells are Pattern then if you are using a local power source can you use it to do both or does it need to be assigned to law/chaos what about if someone came up with a Ygg power could it do both? something else all togehter?
I think the confusion and paperwork might get real dragging (although it would make sorcery tedious enough to stop it being a go to power :) ) having to track each and all power sources and rank then in power on some sort of multi axes graph and every time you add a new primary power (trump? Abyss?) you would have to think does this require a new axes is x power unique?

I think I will settle for a simpler model where Logrus and Pattern have the same strength (as seems to be the case in the books) and are as effective at all versiosn of magic. The differential will be stuff that might limit the power in this shadow and the users score in the power (using a partial power system the total score in a power will liekly vary between characters) and their psyche.
I will probably have a profile for each shadow though that includes tech and magic.

I don't focus much on the details with regards to power sources for sorcery, I merely consider the 'flavor' of the power ...

... so for example, if a logrus sorcerer and a pattern sorcerer both try to cast a transformation power, then it would work for both but the logrus sorcerer would find it easier to cast or counter, whereas if they both tried to cast a control power, then again it would work for both but the pattern sorcerer would find it easier to cast or counter. Likewise other sorcerers would find spells that tied in to the 'flavor' of their power source easier to cast or counter.

Basically, one of the things I like best about the game is the freeform resolution and I try to do the same with sorcery, keeping it as simple as I can. For instance with the above example, either the pattern sorcerer or the logrus sorcerer might gain a small advantage depending on the spells they choose to use and how they choose to use them.

Quote from: jibbajibba;322867Hmm... I will have to think. My initial reaction is that if you limited patterna nd Logrus like this then you would end up havign to limit every possible power source and crippling them as they would all need to be weaker than the poles. For example if you say a transformation spells are Chaos based and control spells are Pattern then if you are using a local power source can you use it to do both or does it need to be assigned to law/chaos what about if someone came up with a Ygg power could it do both? something else all togehter?

Well, thing is, sometimes, shadow power sources can do thing that pattern or logrus can't, but in a limited area. You also need a link to them.

Say that there's this Powerful Shadow Source that gives you power over fire (like, for exemple, the keep of four worlds, which is presented in the series like something major). You can use it to create fire, something you can't do with either pattern or logrus. But you can't use it to control a corpse's movements (something Pattern would allow you to do) or transmute a wall into glass, something easily done with logrus.
Creation and control over fire may be usefull, but this makes you a one-trick pony, something easily circumvented.

And this is the upper best of Magic Sources. Most were a loooot more limited, like "create swords" (something that Pattern couldn't do, but still...), "control wolves" (something logrus couldn't do, yet...).
A more powerful Shadow Source would let you control and transform wolves, which would be Pattern and Logrus abilities... limited to wolves.
You could this have powerful shadow sorcerers, but they'd be limited in what they could do, although, the more they traveled through Shadow and took control of various power sources, the more dangerous they'd became.

Once again, this fits perfectly with the books depiction of Shadow power sources, be it the miriad of minor sources seen through the spikards to the surprising Keep of the Four Worlds, rare and powerful enough for Brand to look into it.
This also echoes merlin's words about Pattern Magic and Logrus Magic.

And look at pundit's question over there: If you don't give each power its own abilities, what's the difference of Pattern Magic vs Logrus Magic vs Shadow Magic? None, which can get boring. IMO, if you allow anything to do anything, you lose a lot of game flavor and lose also the "So, that's what the book talked about!" feel.
Stormwind's solution is, still IMO, better than yours, although a "small" difference will probably be always overlooked by players.

As per ygg, first, I'd ask this: Shoudl everything be a power or allow you to do something?
Still, if you wanted to do this, it's just like a new power creation: The GM would have to see. Me, I'd probably allow it to nullify Pattern and Logrus sorcery: These powers do not extand past ygg

In my humble opinion: K.I.S.S.

Quote from: Croaker;323031Well, thing is, sometimes, shadow power sources can do thing that pattern or logrus can't, but in a limited area. You also need a link to them.

Say that there's this Powerful Shadow Source that gives you power over fire (like, for exemple, the keep of four worlds, which is presented in the series like something major). You can use it to create fire, something you can't do with either pattern or logrus. But you can't use it to control a corpse's movements (something Pattern would allow you to do) or transmute a wall into glass, something easily done with logrus.
Creation and control over fire may be usefull, but this makes you a one-trick pony, something easily circumvented.

And this is the upper best of Magic Sources. Most were a loooot more limited, like "create swords" (something that Pattern couldn't do, but still...), "control wolves" (something logrus couldn't do, yet...).
A more powerful Shadow Source would let you control and transform wolves, which would be Pattern and Logrus abilities... limited to wolves.
You could this have powerful shadow sorcerers, but they'd be limited in what they could do, although, the more they traveled through Shadow and took control of various power sources, the more dangerous they'd became.

Once again, this fits perfectly with the books depiction of Shadow power sources, be it the miriad of minor sources seen through the spikards to the surprising Keep of the Four Worlds, rare and powerful enough for Brand to look into it.
This also echoes merlin's words about Pattern Magic and Logrus Magic.

And look at pundit's question over there: If you don't give each power its own abilities, what's the difference of Pattern Magic vs Logrus Magic vs Shadow Magic? None, which can get boring. IMO, if you allow anything to do anything, you lose a lot of game flavor and lose also the "So, that's what the book talked about!" feel.
Stormwind's solution is, still IMO, better than yours, although a "small" difference will probably be always overlooked by players.

As per ygg, first, I'd ask this: Shoudl everything be a power or allow you to do something?
Still, if you wanted to do this, it's just like a new power creation: The GM would have to see. Me, I'd probably allow it to nullify Pattern and Logrus sorcery: These powers do not extand past ygg

As noted I am drawn to the KISS option ... however... if we were to add a 'school' system to the magic (a bit like the ars magica example above) a power source could have a profile against these 'schools' and spells would be of a school could even work that into the lynchpins ....

I will see if I can come up with some thing tonight.

Quote from: Stormwind;322695As a DM I would simply say that whilst you can 'theoretically' use the logrus or the pattern to power any form of magic, magic powered by pattern is going to excel at giving things a fixed form (basically fixing something to a pattern, such as petrification spells), whilst magic powered by logrus will excel at changing things or making them more chaotic (such as disguise spells). I would also allow shapeshifting or trump to power magic, and again the 'flavor' of the power source determines the type of magic which that source is best suited to.

Finally, regarding munchkin amberites taking pattern sorcery and going apeshit on the wizards of Chaos, well Logrus users have a decided advantage there (as per the rules) ... they can hang multiple spells on the logrus itself.

My 2c worth ;)

Yeah, but again really, so what? Any Amber PC who gets sorcery will get a 2pt item to rack 12 spells on, and bob's your uncle; we're right back at supposedly-less-sorcerous-Amberites wiping the floor with supposedly-sorcery-rich-Chaosians.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;323148Yeah, but again really, so what? Any Amber PC who gets sorcery will get a 2pt item to rack 12 spells on, and bob's your uncle; we're right back at supposedly-less-sorcerous-Amberites wiping the floor with supposedly-sorcery-rich-Chaosians.

RPGPundit

Rules, not novels.

Yes, that's right. What we're working on here is the rules. And how to make them actually work, not be rife for abuse that doesn't match the novels' emulation.

RPGPundit

I sliced it a dozen ways last night. Tried emulating micro spells, Pundy's list of spell elements, I even looked at he D&D spell schools (mainly because I wanted 8 different aspects for in game reasons) but I couldn't come up with a list of spell type i was confortable that really fittend into the Amberverse.

Lets say we went with

Evocation - direct damage stuff
Summoning - bringing things through shadow
Travel - moving things through shadow/space
Alteration - changing the form of things (akin to Shadow manaipulation as well)
Control - meaning a pychic control type spell


With this list of 5 I was unable to say which would be Logrus and which pattern.

Yes I could create a power source that had 30023 profile (or more amusingly for 90s tv fans 90210)
and i coudl see that that power source coudl produce spells of 3 'schools' which a degree of success. But I couldn't actually split Logrus and Pattern. Alternation you would guess is Chaos, yet Pattern is the go to Power for Shadow Manipulation. Control is Order, yet control spell int eh books are more the work of Chaosites binding demons, casting sleep spells etc.

So ... I am moving back to KISS  :(


(also considered the following magick types... Dreams, Mirrors, Time, Divination, Self, demonic, ...)

Quote from: RPGPundit;323394Yes, that's right. What we're working on here is the rules. And how to make them actually work, not be rife for abuse that doesn't match the novels' emulation.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I got that. I suppose my old line "people wouldn't abuse those rules because they want to play a nice game" won't be of use. Emulation shouldn't be the GM's or rulebook's problem only.

thought. the Jewel of judgment as a high-order power-source. pattern/logrus as medium-power, broken pattern as low power. and then you have shadow sources. But the spikards are super-strong, based on the pre-pattern shadow power sources.

could be that pattern actually reduced the amount of shadow-power when it came into existence. in part because of how the JoJ was used. maybe all that stolen power is now only availible from the Jewel, or the spikards- both of which have major problems for the user. logical conclusion, destruction of pattern(s) would increase magic sources in shadow.

trump as a possible power source? you would only get the source depicted in the trump, but that could be a significant power boost by removing the transport problem, making a nice synergy between magic and trump. heck, ghostwheel could probably do a lot to move power around, if he needed to.

i could actually see shadow sources being MORE powerful than logrus or pattern, but more specialized in use and stuck in one spot. so if you can access them you have an edge, and this is why shadow-sorcerers are so bloody dangerous. a prince walking shadow has access to less power on the spur of the moment in general.

we should also get some 'blood sacrifice' power source. kill an animal, cut yourself, or kill a person. inconvenient and messy, but it works.

i guess the short list would then be Constructs, Powers, Shadow, and Blood. probably should be something else, of the older/forgotten variety as well- the shroudling's mirror realm being a good example.

Quote from: SunBoy;323646Yeah, I got that. I suppose my old line "people wouldn't abuse those rules because they want to play a nice game" won't be of use. Emulation shouldn't be the GM's or rulebook's problem only.

Well, I think certain players wouldn't be too keen to accept that; they'd say "it doesn't make sense that amberites WOULDN'T do this", and they'd have a good point at that; if you want the game to emulate the setting, then you need to make sure the rules take these kinds of things into account.   There are moments where you can say "no, that's just not in the spirit of the rules", but with something as big as one of the most significant power systems, I don't think that's a good excuse, its just a cop-out for failing to design a magic system that is sufficiently emulative.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Xenon;323655thought. the Jewel of judgment as a high-order power-source. pattern/logrus as medium-power, broken pattern as low power. and then you have shadow sources. But the spikards are super-strong, based on the pre-pattern shadow power sources.

could be that pattern actually reduced the amount of shadow-power when it came into existence. in part because of how the JoJ was used. maybe all that stolen power is now only availible from the Jewel, or the spikards- both of which have major problems for the user. logical conclusion, destruction of pattern(s) would increase magic sources in shadow.

trump as a possible power source? you would only get the source depicted in the trump, but that could be a significant power boost by removing the transport problem, making a nice synergy between magic and trump. heck, ghostwheel could probably do a lot to move power around, if he needed to.

i could actually see shadow sources being MORE powerful than logrus or pattern, but more specialized in use and stuck in one spot. so if you can access them you have an edge, and this is why shadow-sorcerers are so bloody dangerous. a prince walking shadow has access to less power on the spur of the moment in general.

we should also get some 'blood sacrifice' power source. kill an animal, cut yourself, or kill a person. inconvenient and messy, but it works.

i guess the short list would then be Constructs, Powers, Shadow, and Blood. probably should be something else, of the older/forgotten variety as well- the shroudling's mirror realm being a good example.

You see if you split it this way it gets really dependent on setting. Supposing you wanted there to be a 'Power' behind Trump or supposing The Abyss was a Power in your game. I would prefer to have a generic way of describing a power then set Logrus and Pattern. I really like hte idea of differnt types of powers being good at different stuff I just can't make it elegant

What we would need to do is have someone collect absolutely every reference to magic/sorcery from the Books, and list them all out, so we could definitively answer "what do we KNOW about sorcery"?

RPGPundit

Quote from: JongWK;323064In my humble opinion: K.I.S.S.

I was made for loving you baby
You were made for loving meeeee

Quote from: jibbajibba;323453Alternation you would guess is Chaos, yet Pattern is the go to Power for Shadow Manipulation. Control is Order, yet control spell int eh books are more the work of Chaosites binding demons, casting sleep spells etc.

Chaos is unnatural alteration. Pattern is natural, possible alteration (the bit about what is possible can be made probable, what is probable can be made certain). Quite a distinction there ;)

You could use this to make a distinction like the one in Mage: Logrus spells would be impressive but dangerous. Pattern spells could be safer, but subtler.

And pundit raises a VERY valid point about logrus spell racks.
An option could be to have such spells be "hardwired" into the logrus, so long as you maintain them, allowing you to cast them multiple times.

Quote from: Croaker;323826Chaos is unnatural alteration. Pattern is natural, possible alteration (the bit about what is possible can be made probable, what is probable can be made certain). Quite a distinction there ;)

You could use this to make a distinction like the one in Mage: Logrus spells would be impressive but dangerous. Pattern spells could be safer, but subtler.

I agree ... I find it's best not to go into too much detail with sorcery and thus I simply stop at the 'flavor' stage. Croaker's description above is a good extrapolation of the differences of flavor between Logrus and Pattern.

Quote from: Croaker;323826And pundit raises a VERY valid point about logrus spell racks.
An option could be to have such spells be "hardwired" into the logrus, so long as you maintain them, allowing you to cast them multiple times.

True, true ... simply considering the rules, the spell rack ability of the Logrus can be a little too easily replicated. One approach is to 'improve' the Logrus benefits, another is to make it more expensive to replicate. I personally require both a good story, and a way for the character to have crafted the spell rack themselves (i.e. need to have both sorcery and conjuration). I suppose other approaches are possible too, but I've always found this to be sufficient with my players.

Quote from: Stormwind;323842I agree ... I find it's best not to go into too much detail with sorcery and thus I simply stop at the 'flavor' stage. Croaker's description above is a good extrapolation of the differences of flavor between Logrus and Pattern.


True, true ... simply considering the rules, the spell rack ability of the Logrus can be a little too easily replicated. One approach is to 'improve' the Logrus benefits, another is to make it more expensive to replicate. I personally require both a good story, and a way for the character to have crafted the spell rack themselves (i.e. need to have both sorcery and conjuration). I suppose other approaches are possible too, but I've always found this to be sufficient with my players.

One interesting thing about spell racks is that they seem to be very much a game mechanic to magic accessible. The items int eh novels that can rack spells, the Spikards and Mandor's Balls (fnarr, fnarr) are deep. Merlin hints that Mandor's balls were enchanted when he assailed the Logrus.
As a game mechanic however they are invaluable :)

I think a good backstory or the ability to create the item are a nice way to cover it off.
I think in my game i will require spells to have a power source but will run the magic types as flavour. Its simple but has hte effect of curbing power hungry magic and makes Power Sources themselves critical to sorcerors.

I would suggest that whatever system one used, it should ultimately mean that Amberites could use sorcery as a source of "cheap tricks", ie. something non-essential and often tedious but occasionally useful, whereas Logrus sorcery would be something pretty much essential to their power-kit, something really worth getting for them.

RPGPundit

Problem is how to do that???

I've been trying to figure out Amber Sorcery in a way that makes sense to me, so I'm really enjoying this thread!  I think the system you've come up with, Pundit, looks pretty good so far, and I'm glad it's play-tested well for you.  Also glad you included this example so I can see how the pieces go together:

Quote from: RPGPundit;212171Well, let's say you wanted to cast a "lightning bolt".

You'd need the following lynchpins:
Create
Direction (bolt extending out from your fingertips)
Shadow (the Shadow you were casting it in)
Element: Lightning

To "hang" the spell for quicker casting later, you'd need to leave at least once of those three lynchpins open, probably "Shadow". Thus, when the moment of casting came you'd fill in the word taking up your action that "round" and the spell would be cast.

You could choose to leave two lynchpins open, for example "Shadow" and "Element"; this means that instead of a Lightning bolt the spell would become a generic attack spell, where you could fire a bolt of fire, or ice, or lightning, or magma, or whatever you wanted. However, with two lynchpins open, it would take you two rounds of action to activate the spell.

RPGPundit

I've got a couple questions to make sure I'm reading everything right.  Let me know where I've gone wrong...

I'm an Amber sorcerer and I want to lightning bolt some dude I'm going to fight in shadow Avernus tomorrow.  I could just cast the spell tomorrow in the heat of battle, but it'll take 4 rounds to do it, and he'll probably shoot me with his crossbow before I finish the spell.  So instead, I'm going to cast MOST of the spell right now, and save just one word to speak tomorrow.  In this case, I know all the details -- I know I want to create lightning (2 words), and I know I want it to come out of my finger (1 word), and I know we'll be in Avernus (1 word).  But since I don't want the spell to go off right now, I have to hold back at least ONE word for now, even though I don't need to leave any room for variables.

QUESTION #1.  So when my sorcerer casts the lightning bolt right now (the day before the fight) it takes me 3 rounds for the 3 words I speak, or does it take 4 rounds since it's a 4 word spell (with the idea that I'm taking time to leave the hole for the unspoken lynchpin)?

QUESTION #2:  When my sorcerer casts the initial spell (leaving out 1 lynchpin), are you still using the convention of needing to rack or hang the unfinished spell in a receptacle?  Are you doing anything different with racking or hanging in that regard?

QUESTION #3:  In this specific lightning bolt case, shouldn't I be defining the length of the bolt with an additional lynchpin word?  Otherwise, how is the magic going to know whether to make the bolt shoot ten feet in front of me, or up to the fifth floor window?  Or are we assuming it will go until it hits something and then stop?

QUESTION #4:  How are you judging the damage done by the lightning bolt?  Is it a function of my Psyche Attribute (matching my Psyche vs the other guy's Strength)?  Do you also factor in how strong magic works in the shadow (like others have suggested)?

Thanks for this new look at Sorcery, especially the way spells are "built" as opposed to the rulebook's microspell approach.

Quote from: RPGPundit;323803What we would need to do is have someone collect absolutely every reference to magic/sorcery from the Books, and list them all out, so we could definitively answer "what do we KNOW about sorcery"?

RPGPundit

I nominate RPGPundit for this invaluable and honored task.  Honored task, I say!  Highly, highly honored!

Quote from: Bird_of_Ill_Omen;359677I've got a couple questions to make sure I'm reading everything right.  Let me know where I've gone wrong...

I'm an Amber sorcerer and I want to lightning bolt some dude I'm going to fight in shadow Avernus tomorrow.  I could just cast the spell tomorrow in the heat of battle, but it'll take 4 rounds to do it, and he'll probably shoot me with his crossbow before I finish the spell.  So instead, I'm going to cast MOST of the spell right now, and save just one word to speak tomorrow.  In this case, I know all the details -- I know I want to create lightning (2 words), and I know I want it to come out of my finger (1 word), and I know we'll be in Avernus (1 word).  But since I don't want the spell to go off right now, I have to hold back at least ONE word for now, even though I don't need to leave any room for variables.

Yes.

QuoteQUESTION #1.  So when my sorcerer casts the lightning bolt right now (the day before the fight) it takes me 3 rounds for the 3 words I speak, or does it take 4 rounds since it's a 4 word spell (with the idea that I'm taking time to leave the hole for the unspoken lynchpin)?

Actually, its more complicated than that. Each word takes 10 minutes to prepare; if you have a 4-part spell it takes 40 minutes to memorize; you are essentially memorizing ("hanging") all of the spell except the last little word of the lynchpin you leave open.

QuoteQUESTION #2:  When my sorcerer casts the initial spell (leaving out 1 lynchpin), are you still using the convention of needing to rack or hang the unfinished spell in a receptacle?  Are you doing anything different with racking or hanging in that regard?

No difference. You can "hang" one spell in your own mind, if you want to have more than that, you need some kind of receptacle, either the Logrus or some item.

QuoteQUESTION #3:  In this specific lightning bolt case, shouldn't I be defining the length of the bolt with an additional lynchpin word?  Otherwise, how is the magic going to know whether to make the bolt shoot ten feet in front of me, or up to the fifth floor window?  Or are we assuming it will go until it hits something and then stop?

The spell should have a "direction" word, which you could specify as "a line in front of me", the length of the lightning bolt would vary based on your psyche, but if you wanted to be sure it was of a limited length, you could add a second direction (for a "stopping" point).

QuoteQUESTION #4:  How are you judging the damage done by the lightning bolt?  Is it a function of my Psyche Attribute (matching my Psyche vs the other guy's Strength)?  Do you also factor in how strong magic works in the shadow (like others have suggested)?

The strength of the lightning bolt would depend on how powerful lightning is in a given shadow. It doesn't depend on your Psyche in this case because the lightning bolt is meant to be electricity, and that's going to have some kind of fixed strength based on the shadow where it is summoned.

Of course, all of this is just my own interpretation, you could choose to do any of these things differently.

RPGPundit

Thanks for the clarifications.  I appreciate the time you're taking to flesh these details out for me, cause it feels a lot more like how sorcery is described in the books.  Looking at the one primary source example from pg 61 of the rulebook (excerpt from Blood of Chaos), Merlin describes:

"I lined up the spoken signatures and edited them into a spell."

"Spoken signatures" here equating to the Structural Words and Effects listed in your system, and "edited them into a spell" referring to putting those words into a proper order for the spell to take effect.

And then when Merlin says:

"Suhuy would have probably gotten it down shorter..."

I like thinking that a more experienced sorcerer like Suhuy can boil down the number of Structural Words by using more comprehensive concepts -- for instance, instead of using the two words "Create+Fire," he's figured out how to use one word like "Combust" in his sorcery to be more efficient.

Quote from: RPGPundit;360146Actually, its more complicated than that. Each word takes 10 minutes to prepare; if you have a 4-part spell it takes 40 minutes to memorize; you are essentially memorizing ("hanging") all of the spell except the last little word of the lynchpin you leave open.

This longer preparation time makes more sense to me than the few rounds I first thought.  I wanted to ask you about this in reference to this passage from the Blood of Amber excerpt, in the second paragraph Merlin describes:

"Then I spoke the spell, slowly and clearly, leaving out the four key words I had chosen to omit.  The woods grew absolutely still about me as the words rang out.  The spell hung before me like a crippled butterfly of sound and color..."

Zelazny isn't specific about how long Merlin takes when he "spoke the spell, slowly and clearly."  In your reading of the book, is Merlin taking 40 minutes or so to speak this spell in this scene?  He very well could be, since Zelazny doesn't say exactly.  Or is this an instance where you read the book and imagine Merlin taking 5 or 15 minutes, but you've made a decision about longer spell preparation time for the sake of game balance cause it works better your way in gameplay (so sorcery guys aren't going all spell crazy)?

Quote from: RPGPundit;360146The length of the lightning bolt would vary based on your psyche...[edit]... The strength of the lightning bolt would depend on how powerful lightning is in a given shadow. It doesn't depend on your Psyche in this case because the lightning bolt is meant to be electricity, and that's going to have some kind of fixed strength based on the shadow where it is summoned.

I'm glad to see that psyche has some effect on the potency of a spell (in this case, length of lightning bolt).  In play, do you have a formalized idea of the ways a stronger psyche effects spells, or do you let your common sense judge on a case by case basis depending on the spell in question?  Mainly I'm wondering about contests between two sorcerers...does the higher psyche sorcerer have a clear advantage in the way that a higher warfare soldier does against another soldier?  Or does it really depend more on the way they decide to use their spells against the other sorcerer, making psyche a more indirect factor to the outcome of the contest?  I can see how in the lightning bolt case, the higher psyche sorcerer should stay out of range of the lower psyche sorcerer and thereby win.

Quote from: RPGPundit;360146Of course, all of this is just my own interpretation, you could choose to do any of these things differently.

This is exactly what I hoped to find on this forum...new ideas for doing things which each GM can then take and play with in a way that works for their own campaign.

Regarding your questions, the length of time to memorize is mainly a balance issue. And from my experience in the campaign, yes, you do have to be VERY careful that your players don't go spell crazy.

As for Psyche, I see it as being the determinant factor in any spell that uses the "Target" keyword.

RPGPundit

The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

Quote from: Malleus Aforethought;360325The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

You're talking about Erick's sorcery system from the Amber rulebook?  What is the "old Spell Design Language" you're referencing?  I did a Google search for it, but nothing useful came up.  I'm interested in researching it a bit if you can give me some pointers on where to look.

Quote from: Malleus Aforethought;360325The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

What was this one?

RPGPundit

Probably won't fit, but here goes. The post is over 20 years old.

From rmr@inferno (Robert Reimann) Sun Jul  9 22:00:23 1989
From: rmr@inferno.wpd.sgi.com (Robert Reimann)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat System (SDL) Update
Message-ID: <37616@sgi.SGI.COM>
Date: 8 Jul 89 19:25:04 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 1458
Keywords: Revised, now includes illusions


Here is the latest draft of the Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat System,
the first (to my knowledge) system to make use of a comprehensive
magical language to tie together all aspects of magic in a gaming
environment.  Since my last posting of the system, I have made minor
syntax changes, added an operator (thanx to Brad Knowles), added a
new class of mages, and integrated demonology and illusionism into
the system.  Still coming are the much sought-after biological and
psychic set of effects.

If anyone has been using the system, I'd love any feedback you may
have.

            Robert.
            rmr@sgi.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Preface
-------

Presented here is the first draft of the Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat
System and Spell Description Language, that hopefully addresses the issues
raised in recent discussions of spell programming languages and mage-to-mage
combat, while remaining more general than previous offerings of this type.

Some spell construction systems attempt to provide all the functionality
of AD&D spells by enumerating hundreds of specialized primitives.
The high number of primitives present in the some systems
reflects AD&D's lack of a distinction between *effects*, the actual
physical, biological, or psychic manifestations of magical forces,
and *operators* which act to shape those forces into useful configurations.
Note that what most systems call "effects" are actually combinations
of effects and operators, as I've defined them above.

AD&D-style spells do not require much distinction between effects and
operators-- they seem to work better without it-- but an object-oriented,
constructive approach really needs to distinguish between objects (effects)
and predicates (operators) to be successful and at the same time remain simple.

The system presented here consists of 32 physical effects (an equal numbers
of biological and psychic effects are currently being developed) and 26
operators.  The effects presented here are part of a rationale for magic
that is built into the world; you are welcome to change them to better
fit your needs, but they were chosen with consistency in mind.  The operators
are the real heart of the system, you should modify them only with great care.
Too many non-general operators will spoil this system.

The Mage-to-Mage Spell Description Language (SDL) uses a straightforward
left-to-right, top-to-bottom, multi-line syntax. For the most part, each
line of spell description represents one spell (mana) point worth of
magical effect.  Mage-to-Mage uses a spell point system to determine the
spell cost; there is no distinction of "spell levels"; spells may be designed
with arbitrary complexity, the limiting factor is the number of spell points a
mage has available to expend casting it.  Spell points are assigned on the
basis of mage level, intelligence, and wisdom.

Mage-to-Mage also provides a painless and logical way of producing
magical items, while at the same time keeping their power limited
to reasonable levels.  Demonology illusion, necromancy, alchemy, and magical
medicine/healing can all be implemented within the same framework
(some of these are still under development).

Lastly, Mage-to-Mage has been designed to work within any combat system
that makes use of melee rounds as units of combat action.  

Enjoy, and feel free to write/post comments or suggestions.






          MAGE-TO-MAGE Magical Combat System
            and Spell Description Language

            Version 0.75

           Copyright 1989 Robert M. Reimann
             All rights reserved.


I.  The Nature of Magic and Spellcasting

"Magic" itself is not an energy source in any true sense.  It is rather an
ability of some entities to alter the fabric of reality in a way that
changes the "natural" balance of "elemental forces" in a localized area
and channel it in a useful fashion.  This ability is inate to some
creatures, but others (humans among them) must be trained.

"Spell" is the name given to the psycho-physical manipulations a mage or
magical creature must perform to produce a magical effect.  Spellcasting
can, therefore be thought of as a psionic skill, with an important exception.
Once a spell is cast, it's semi-physical nature gives it a certain "life
of it's own"; it does not *need* to be constantly maintained after it
has been cast, although it *may* be altered once it has been cast, by
the original caster, or by another mage of sufficient power.
The existence of any spell is, however, intimately bound to the existence
of the casting entity; if the caster is killed, the spell will cease
*unless* spell "ownership" has been transfered to another casting
entity before the original caster dies.  

Spells themselves cannot be written down, but "recipes" for spells
may be recorded using the spell description language described below.
Spell descriptions have no magical power themselves, they must be
interpreted by a spell caster.  Of course, true, active spells may
be bound to scraps of paper, thus filling the role of AD&D-style
magical scrolls.

As with any skill, magical ability improves with practice.  As mages
gain spell casting experience, the number of spells a mage can cast
and/or the complexity of his spells will increase.  Spell casting is an
exhaustive effort requiring intense powers of will.  Spell points are
an arbitrary method of measuring a spell's complexity.  A mage is, in
a sense, "rated for" a certain number of spell points per day, based on
his experience (level), and his mental prowess.  

He can't exceed this rating, not because he would do himself harm, but rather,
because it is simply beyond his current level of capability.  As in AD&D,
an appropriate amount of rest will restore a mage's spell point "rating" to
full.

Spells need not be written or memorized, they may be cast "on the fly".
In fact, this is quite common in magical combat.  Spells are, in general,
non-permanent for reasons outlined above.

III.  Elemental Forces, Matter, and Effects

The structure of all matter is created by the flow of elemental forces through
the material plane.  Were there no flow of these energies, the material plane
would consist of formless chaos.  The world in which magic exists is entirely
shaped by an intricate flow of elemental energies that yields land, oceans, air,
living things, etc.  All living things possess the ability to alter the flow of
elemental forces to a certain degree by physically interacting with them.
Sentient beings further posess the ability to alter the flow of these forces,
and hence the world around them, purely by using their mind, i.e., by magic.

There are four primary elemental forces, each residing on a separate plane:

EARTH
AIR
FIRE
WATER

However, each of these planes overlaps, to a certain extent, the other three
planes, yielding a total of 16 subplanes.

Earthy Earth      Airy Air   Fiery Fire   Watery Water
Airy Earth      Earthy Air   Earthy Fire   Earthy Water
Fiery Earth      Fiery Air   Airy Fire   Airy Water
Watery Earth      Watery Air   Watery Fire   Fiery Water

Lastly, there are two states for each of these 16 forces, a high energy
state and a low energy state. These two states are called "Light" and
"Dark" respectively.  Each of the 16 permuted forces above can be
manipulated in either the Light or Dark form, yielding a total of 32
different elemental flows.  Each type of flow generates a unique set
of EFFECTs.

There are three manifestations of an effect; physical, biological, and psychic.
Each manifestation is separate and independent of the other two.  Physical
effects are primarily for combat.  Biological effects can be used to
cure and cause illnesses, and to bestow qualities of living creatures
on inanimate objects.  Psychic effects can be used to cure and cause
mental disorders, to bestow qualities of sentient creatures on
non-sentient things, and to deal with spirits, which have no physical
characteristics.  Biological and psychic effects are more complex,
and may not be used until the mage has gained higher levels:

Level      Manifestations Usable
-----      ---------------------

1+      Physical
5+      Physical, Biological
9+      Physical, Biological, Psychic

Currently, the system covers only physical effects; biological and psychic
effects will be added in future versions.

One final characteristic of some importance is that dissimilar effects
may not occupy the same physical space in the Material Plane.  Thus,
when two different effect types come together, one must give way.  This
quality can be used to a mage's defensive advantage.  If he casts a barrier
of dissimilar effect in the path of another, oncoming force, and his force
is as potent or more so than the oncoming force, it will be blocked.
Note that this only works for effects that are manifested in the same way;
e.g., a physical effect will not block a psychic effect, for instance.


III.  Magical Training and Aptitude

Unlike AD&D, this system offers mages the opportunity to specialize in
areas of expertise, giving them greater control over more limited resources.

Initial training of a mage lasts a maximum of 12 years.  In that time, the
mage may divide his studies among one or more elemental forces, such as
Fiery Air.

Each force studied includes both Light and Dark effects, as well as all
three manifestations (physical, biological, psychic).  When a mage learns
a force, he generally learns both the Light and Dark versions (exception:
Elemental Mages, below).

The following table shows how studies may be divided, how much time they
take, and what abilities each term of study confers on the mage.


Study Time   Skill Class   Potency     Range      Know/Use   Resist
----------   -----------   -------     -----      --------   ------
12 years   Elemental*   d8/lev     80'+8'/lev   40%+4%/lev      20%+2%/lev
10 years   Singular**   d12/lev     120'+12'/lev   60%+6%/lev   30%+3%/lev
 6 years   Major      d8/lev     80'+8'/lev   40%+4%/lev   20%+2%/lev
 4 years   Minor      d6/lev     60'+6'/lev   30%+3%/lev   15%+2%/lev
 2 years   Minimal    d4/lev     40'+4'/lev   20%+2%/lev   10%+1%/lev

* Elemental Mages learn all four Light or Dark effects (not both) of an element;
  thus a Mage of Light Air would learn Light Airy Air, Light Watery Air,
  Light Fiery Air, and Light Earthy Air.

** Singular Mages may not learn any other force beyond their singular
   specialty; their minds are too "coloured" by their magic to permit
   learning a new kind.

So, Medwyn the Mage could spend his 12 years of study becoming an
Elemental Mage of Light Water or a Singular Mage in Fiery Air, or
he could spend 6 getting a Major in Fiery Air, and 6 more getting
another Major in, say, Earthy Water.

Or he could get two Minors and and two Minimals, etc.

Spending more time learning a particular force allows the mage to use
it more effectively; a singular mage gets d12 per level damage from his
effects, twice the damage of a mage with a similar Minor.  Similarly, his
casting range is larger, his ability to recognize (Know) magic of his
specialty and make use of it (Use) is better as well.  Finally, he is
also able to better Resist magic of the type in which he received the
training.

Spell points are assigned to Mages according to the following formula:

      Spell Points = (INT+WILL)*level/4

This is the same for all mages regardless of training.  All fractional
points should be rounded up.

As a mage casts spells, his spell points are depleted.  They are regained
with sleep; 1/10 of a mage's total points are replenished per hour of rest.
There is one important exception to this rule: if a spell is still operating,
the spell points used to create it *cannot* be replenished until the spell
has been stopped.  Once it has stopped, the points may be replenished as
described above.  This effectively limits the number of semi-permanent spells
that a mage is able to cast.

IV. Physical Effects

The following is a complete list of physical effect.

EARTH

LEE:  Crystal/Glass   DEE:  Stone
LAE:  Sand      DAE:  Dust
LWE:  Loam      DWE:  Mud/Quicksand
LFE:  Lava      DFE:  Metal


WATER

LWW:  Water      DWW:  Ice
LAW:  Foam      DAW:  Erosion
LEW:  Glue      DEW:  Liquid [Poison]
LFW:  Steam      DFW:  Oil


FIRE

LFF:  Fire      DFF:  Shadow Fire [Cold]
LAF:  Plasma      DAF:  Ash
LEF:  Heat      DEF:  Alkali
LWF:  Electricity   DWF:  Acid


AIR

LAA:  Air/Wind         DFF:  Shadow/Darkness
LWA:  Ambient Light      DWA:  Fog/Cloud/Mist
LEA:  Illusion         DEA:  Gas [Poison]
LFA:  Radiant Light      DFA:  Smoke


V.  Operators

Operators are the core of the Mage-to-Mage SDL, providing the syntax
for spell description and execution.  This section gives a summary of all
SDL operators. followed by complete descriptions of the syntax and semantics
of each operator.  Examples are included.

V.1  Operator Summary

Basic (Effect) Operators
------------------------
create      create a new effect
destroy      destroy a previously created effect
move         move an effect to a new location
rotate      rotate an effect around any axis
scale         resize a previously created effect
shape         form an effect into a desired shape


Path (Shape) Operators
----------------------

fill         fill a closed polygonal (2D) area
lineto         extrude an effect along a given line
surface      mold an effect along a given surface
volume      form an effect to fit a specified volume


Flow Operators
--------------

halt         stop a spell
if...then...else   conditional determined by input events
repeat...until   loop until event
wait until      pause spell until event


Event Operators
---------------

and                |
or                | boolean operators for combining events
not                |
interrupted             signals a spell has been interrupted