Advice - Amber-ish board game

[jibbajibba]

I have a game.
It started as an Amber ccg. I made up the rules and all the card templates. my mates and I would then be allowed to create a deck of existing and 'new" cards were all cards were point bought from the template.
Anyway... it was pretty good but the end game was weak and there were too many powers at play. the reason for both of these two things was becuase I was trying to replicate Amber. So capturing Amber, either through politics or military force couldn't be the end of the game itself as in the books the forces capturing Amber didn't instantly win, and as it was Amber it needed to have shapeshift, logrus, pattern, will, trump, martial prowess, sorcery etc etc

In addition the ccg template didn't quite fit becuase some elements were common, such as the forces of Amber that defend the city or the city itself.

Therefore I have the bones of a decent game. I could port it over to a board game + card based expansions model very easily and it would be a better fit. I could strip out the Amber specifics and instead use a city/castle at the centre of a collection of worlds with a number of powerful beings vied to seize contol of the centre using politics or military force whilst traversing these varied worlds. I could then get a more manageable set of powers and a cleaner victory condition. In fact I have done all this in my head already.

So the questions are
i) Is there already a game where your heroes travel across different worlds and time periods recruiting a rag tag army of Hussars, elvish bowmen, visgoths, Commandos and Jedi, battling other such armies as you attempt to make it across the worlds to the central city of (I was thinking Avelina or Antiqua)
ii) is there any appitite for such a game that you would play in a base mode with a shared deck of cards but which you could expand to include customised decks of cards played in the same game space (I obviously think so though I am not sure how that customisation would run).
iii) would a kickstarter for this sort of thing be worth considering or is the market saturated and the need for publicity so great that its a non-starter

[Jason D]

At one point I spent a ridiculous amount of time putting together an Amber variant of Talisman. I drew hundreds of little cards, but the electronic colorized files got lost in some computer crash and all I've got left are the original drawings, which aren't spectacular.

It was pretty much Talisman, with the following features:

• The outer ring was Shadow, the middle ring was Amber's Golden Circle and some key locations, and the innermost ring was Amber, with the center spot being the Pattern.
• Instead of the Crown of Command, you got the Jewel of Judgement.
• Pretty much everything mentioned in the 10 novels and the short stories, as well as the apocryphal stuff from Zelazny's various intros and essays, was utilized.

It worked surprisingly well, but since Talisman works surprisingly well, there was no surprise there.

I never did get the board drawn... it remained just a rough on a sheet of poster-paper rolled up somewhere.

[finarvyn]

Your board game + CCG sounds fun, although I am never thrilled with any game where I have to keep buying decks of cards. I would be interested in playing a game like you describe, and I suspect there would be a decent market for such a game.

At one point I created an Amber boardgame based on Avalon Hill's wargame "Kingmaker." I'm not sure where my files are, and many of my older disks no longer read in my newer computer so I don't know how well I can retrieve them. I've never played Talisman, so I don't know how the two might compare.

[Doughdee222]

I agree with Jason and Fin. When I first read this idea I immediately thought of Kingmaker and Talisman. Both are fun games where you can move around and build your forces (although take caution with Kingmaker, it often hits a stalemate point that can last for hours during the mid-game.) I've only played Talisman a couple times at a convention so I can't testify too much about it.

Also look at the games Merchants of Venus (a sci-fi board game that plays like a train load delivery game) and even Titan (for the recruit-a-random-army mechanics.)

So I can envision a board, similar in appearance to Kingmaker's, with Amber at one end and the the Courts of Chaos at the other, in between are the Shadows. Different zones of the Shadows have different advantages where you can recruit certain troops and obtain certain goods. A zone where magic is dominant, another with medieval Earth Shadows, another with high tech and strong psychic powers, etc. As the characters move around they can recruit troops or learn secrets that add to their power. Sometimes goods can be carried from one place to another for some advantage.

Yeah, it could work.

You could also throw in some of the mechanics from the original Illuminati game: each character has different win conditions and there are cards that represent nations or power groups with different strengths that are "in play."

[jibbajibba]

I agree with Jason and Fin. When I first read this idea I immediately thought of Kingmaker and Talisman. Both are fun games where you can move around and build your forces (although take caution with Kingmaker, it often hits a stalemate point that can last for hours during the mid-game.) I've only played Talisman a couple times at a convention so I can't testify too much about it.

Also look at the games Merchants of Venus (a sci-fi board game that plays like a train load delivery game) and even Titan (for the recruit-a-random-army mechanics.)

So I can envision a board, similar in appearance to Kingmaker's, with Amber at one end and the the Courts of Chaos at the other, in between are the Shadows. Different zones of the Shadows have different advantages where you can recruit certain troops and obtain certain goods. A zone where magic is dominant, another with medieval Earth Shadows, another with high tech and strong psychic powers, etc. As the characters move around they can recruit troops or learn secrets that add to their power. Sometimes goods can be carried from one place to another for some advantage.

Yeah, it could work.

You could also throw in some of the mechanics from the original Illuminati game: each character has different win conditions and there are cards that represent nations or power groups with different strengths that are "in play."

Well the "board" used to be shadows you played from your hand so you made a new universe every game. That made things confusing because shadows can change hands and also representing locations with cards etc wasn't ideal. Basically I had squeezed a board game into a CCG shaped template.
The new idea is to use a hex map with 61 3 inch hexes representing the "worlds" you either deal the hex map face down onto the board and then heros with the Opener power can move to a new hex and reveal it or you play hexes as you move. The latter I think will work better.
In any case a 61 Hex board makes it 4 hexes from the outside starting areas to the central hex.
You would use peices rather like Warrior Knights that represented heroes with their armies as they crossed the worlds.
Game play has army combat, individual combat and politics as the aim to seize can be done my amasing power in the city itself  until you reach a threshold or by seiging it.
The special mission win conditions idea already exists. Stolen from Risk rather than Illuminati stuff like Hold the Keep of the 4 Worlds for 6 rounds. Bring 30 points of troops to The Courts of Chaos to declare yourself Lord of the Fractal Throne and win the game. Etc etc  

Anyway I will get the set rejigged as pdfs and share it here and if anyone wants to try it I would welcome the feedback.

Of course any game for actual sale would need original artwork etc but looking at Gamecrafter I reckon they could make the parts easily enough for a print on demand game or I could source the components easily enough through a Chinese printer. I guess that is why people use kickstarters

anyway thanks for the feedback.

[Doughdee222]

Have you seen the old Magic Realm game from AH? It had a pile of large hex cardboard pieces with various terrains and path configurations on them. At the start of each game the boards are doled out to the players who then place them down wherever they wish to create a new land map each time.

I never played it but there is also a game called Source of the Nile. As I recall it had a blank white map of Africa and the explorer would roll randomly to see what each hex contained so it was always fresh. Of course that doesn't really fit with how Amberites can choose how shadows are next to each other (which we presume has a logical, natural set up.)

[jibbajibba]

Have you seen the old Magic Realm game from AH? It had a pile of large hex cardboard pieces with various terrains and path configurations on them. At the start of each game the boards are doled out to the players who then place them down wherever they wish to create a new land map each time.

I never played it but there is also a game called Source of the Nile. As I recall it had a blank white map of Africa and the explorer would roll randomly to see what each hex contained so it was always fresh. Of course that doesn't really fit with how Amberites can choose how shadows are next to each other (which we presume has a logical, natural set up.)

For my card game each location had a number from 9 Chaos to 1 amber and you could play adjacent shadows so you can move from Avernus (4) to Lorraine (3) and from their to a golden Circle state like Kashfa (2) and from there to Amber (1) you can even move tot eh Primal Pattern (0) or Tir (0).

All this is very logical but was a pain in the arse in play as you were waiting for the right shadows to come up. So I was thinking about hexes using a number from 5-1 or dropping the whole thing and just allowing movements between any world through a gate as I don't have the amber baggage to worry about

[finarvyn]

For my card game each location had a number from 9 Chaos to 1 amber and you could play adjacent shadows so you can move from Avernus (4) to Lorraine (3) and from their to a golden Circle state like Kashfa (2) and from there to Amber (1) you can even move tot eh Primal Pattern (0) or Tir (0).

Reminds me a little of dominoes. Not a bad concept for a "board."

Along the same lines, have you seen Twilight Creation's Zombies!!! board game? I ask because they have geomorphic tiles that form the board. You flip a tile, then place it onto other tiles in play so that the "board" is different each time. Not quite the same as your shadow concept, but maybe similar enough to invoke inspiration of some sort.

Hope you PDF your rules, etc, soon. This sounds like a lot of fun and I'd love to try it out.

[jibbajibba]

Reminds me a little of dominoes. Not a bad concept for a "board."

Along the same lines, have you seen Twilight Creation's Zombies!!! board game? I ask because they have geomorphic tiles that form the board. You flip a tile, then place it onto other tiles in play so that the "board" is different each time. Not quite the same as your shadow concept, but maybe similar enough to invoke inspiration of some sort.

Hope you PDF your rules, etc, soon. This sounds like a lot of fun and I'd love to try it out.

I think have I have allt eh rules sorted. On the ride in to work this morning I fixed man to man combat and the concept of ally loyalty.
I will post a link to an alpha print yourself version once I have ported the key cards over from the onld Amber version and tweaked them.

Looking at cards we just robbed art of tyhe internet as it was just playing at home so that will become the high cost item as I reckon I will need about 400 images for everything.
I am thinking for an alpha set I will just used perloined artwork for illustrative purposes.
For anything more than that I need to secure some Art. I don't actually need the art to specifically of anything as I can tweak the descriptors to match the art easily. What do artists typically charge "for a you can use my art in your game upt to a few dozen copies but if it goes into production we need to have another talk"  type agreements on stuff they already have in their portfolios? I have only worked the other way with here is the physical art but I (the artist) keep copyright and can reuse.

In any case shouldn't stop me getting a playable alpha demo out there.

[yabaziou]

I know it is not the proper thread to post this, but I have recently buy the French edition of Amber Diceless RPG (the 2 books + a Tarot game) and I want to share this pic with you !

[finarvyn]

I know it is not the proper thread to post this, but I have recently buy the French edition of Amber Diceless RPG (the 2 books + a Tarot game) and I want to share this pic with you !

Just curious:
(1) Where did you find these?
(2) How much did they cost?
(3) Do they have more?

[Croaker]

Nice!

I have both Amber and Shadow Knight, but not the tarot. Where/how did you manage this? It's becoming quite rare.

[yabaziou]

Just curious:
(1) Where did you find these?
(2) How much did they cost?
(3) Do they have more?

1 - I found this on a French rpg forum website. It was on a I sell thread ;

2 - 140 € for the whole deal (but I see on amazon for more than 100 €each !) ;

3 - I don't think so, sorry ! It was a individual RPGer who sold his books. The publisher is long gone and those books are totaly out of print.

[Evermasterx]

I know it is not the proper thread to post this, but I have recently buy the French edition of Amber Diceless RPG (the 2 books + a Tarot game) and I want to share this pic with you !

Beautiful!

[jibbajibba]

I have finished this game now.

I eventually dumped the Amber direct model and went with an alternative universe (but it still feels pretty Amberish)

You have 36 Worlds + Avelina (the city at the middle of it all)

I simplified the powers (a problem was Amber has too many and they do similar things)
Shifter - can move between worlds
Shaper - can modify places and creatures
Sorcerer - modify energy into spells (usually offensive type)

There is a politics phase then players move their Lord (there are 9 Lords to choose from) between worlds recruiting allies, searching for Artifacts and hiring armies.

1st play-test was good for an alpha I learn some stuff and most of the players spent the game grabbing really cool stuff cos it was really cool.

Need to iron out a couple of rules and tweak a couple of broken cards (there are nearly 300 cards so the fact that 4 seemed overpowered wasn't too bad )

If anyone wants a copy of the JPGS and the rules to print out their own copy let me now on PM