ADRP: Thoughts on attribute scale

[finarvyn]

This sort of runs alongside the "Attribute Relativism" thread but I didn't want to derail it with my thoughts on an attribute scale so I started a new thread instead.

Before I start, I might comment that to me Amber characters aren't always supermen. They are exceptional but not godlike.

In many ways I believe that the ADRP attribute scale is supposed to parallel the "OD&D plus Greyhawk" scale. In OD&D you roll 3d6 to generate stats from 3 to 18, but in certain cases a character can go above 18. When this happens, the scale is subdivided into a percentile scale so that you might be 18(01) or 18(50) for example, and the maximum of 18(100) essentially becomes 19.

I might note along the way that OD&D provides "exceptional" (over 18) for Strength, but articles in Strategic Review and Dragon also give rules for Dexterity. I presume that the same basic idea could apply to any attribute.

What I see there is a case where you have gradual advancement from 16 to 17 to 18, but then essentially the scale hits a plateau and minor advancement occurs. The difference between an 18(15) and 18(46) would be minimal and in most cases could be ignored -- folks less than 18 would recognize that both are 18's and only in the rare head-to-head case might those tiny percentages really matter in the campaign.

Now consider the ADRP scale. We have human or shadow level, then a higher Chaos level, then a still higher Amber level. Human might represent a 10 on the 3-18 scale while Chaos might be 15-16 and Amber 18. Amber Ranked would then be a lot like 18(xx), where putting 6 points into the attribute might represent 18(06) or putting 86 points into the attribute could be 18(86).

So my scale could look something like this:
-25 ADRP points = 10 OD&D stat
-10 ADRP points = 15 OD&D stat
0 ADPR points = 18 OD&D stat
xx ADRP points = 18(xx) OD&D stat
100 ADRP points = 19 OD&D stat

What do you think?

[Doughdee222]

My thoughts:

I agree that Amberites "aren't always supermen. They are exceptional but not godlike." I think this is pretty clear from the books. Take for example the story Random tells of trying to rescue Brand in the tower. He carries an average sword and armor, loses the sword in the belly of the translucent worm creature and runs away from the pursuing guards (who are above average only in that they can travel across Shadow too and are particularly determined.) Later, Random, Corwin and Flora fight the last six of them in Flora's house and they still seemed nervous about the prospect (although granted Corwin was still amnesiac at this point.) So Random and Flora at least, despite their age and stats (in the game) are pretty weak in combat skills. (As far as we can tell, we never see Flora fight. Maybe she has crazy weapon-master skills that she just hides from everyone.)

As for the relation to OD&D stats...
Yeah, that sounds about right. I haven't played AD&D since the 80's but I do recall that having an 18 meant "among the best in the world" and Top Athlete. An 18(xx) were only for those "Mr. Universe" contenders. That's how I tend to see Amberites.

My preferred system is the Hero system. I have an old Champions 4th edition in front of me. Usually the best a normal human tops out at is around 20. (If you're unfamiliar: 10 is starting score and considered "average" human. Every 5 points is a doubling of quality, so at 15 you're twice as strong or smart or healthy as the average man. At 20 you are 4X, etc.) So the starting Amberite = 18 OD&D = 20 Hero (one could argue 21 or 23, it's all about the same.) I think if I was ever to run an Amber campaign using the Hero system I would start the characters off at 20 for the base stats and go from there.

I'm not sure about 100 ADRP points = 19 OD&D stat though. Seems a bit much. Maybe 50 ADRP points = +1 OD&D or Hero. Depends on how you want to view these things and how much research into animal and machine strengths you want to do. And then you can ask questions like "Is a pro athlete "just" 2X or 4X as strong or dextrous as a normal man? Aren't they more? How can we rate such things?

See, this handy Hero chart (on page 173 of this Champions book) is like the one I've been calling for in ADRP. I can easily reference the data I need for a stat: 20 Strength = can lift 400 Kg (about 880 pounds, roughly a motorcycle), punches for 4d6 damage, can jump 4 hexes. 30 Strength = can lift 1600 Kg (abut 3500 pounds, roughly a small car), punches for 6d6 damage, can jump 6 hexes. Etc.

Just my 2 cents.

[Panjumanju]

Finarvyn, I can understand what you mean with the comparison between OD&D exceptional statistics and the relative structure of Amber Diceless attributes. It's a good compromise of perspective between having a chart and not having a chart.

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

Of course the comparrison isn't perfect, as I could argue that Chaos level might be more "supernatural" and above 18 and that Amber level has to be higher than that.

It's mostly the pattern of numbers that I find interesting, that both have a scale which progresses normally and then suddenly flatten out to where you start to micromanage the numbers.

[Panjumanju]

It's mostly the pattern of numbers that I find interesting, that both have a scale which progresses normally and then suddenly flatten out to where you start to micromanage the numbers.

It is an interesting anomaly. I hesitate to say coincidence. Certainly I don't think the two games have anything to do with each other from a design perspective, but it's interesting how similar lines of thought can produce similar structures.

//Panjumanju

[Taewakan]

This is both the drawback and the strength of Amber as an RPG.
You see the Amberite Elders as being exceptional, but not god-like. Another reading the same books rates base (Pattern activated/initiated) Amberites as GODS. I mean, they can control multiple entire universes, right? Even the way time flows/passes in them!

I've done conversions from Amber to ADnD to Traveler to Marvel Superheroes to Champions (Hero System) and I find that Human compared to Lord of Chaos compared to Amberite is a pretty simple ranking system. I tend to use real life human maxes (found online with just a few keystrokes) to be useful when describing a character's abilities in terms of their attributes.
I also like to make charts for the abilities above base Amber level just for comparison, so, as a DM, my descriptions are more consistent.

I use the 16 point artifact creature and item scale to help with this consistency. A 2-4 point effect usually converts to base Amber Level while a 16 point effect converts to a 200 Point (Benedict/Fiona) Level. Gerard ranks out at 253 so when it comes to Strength and Unarmed Combat the scale is off a little (but this is personal preference not a hard and fast rule) and I've AMPed up Corwin so his Endurance is 200, rather than book scale.
Like I said, it helps me with consistency.
ttfn