A few questions

[warp9]

One of my big questions round this point debate is the whole what do you get for free part.

I think the better question might be: what am I buying?

I mean, what are the Qualities & Powers listed in the Artifacts and Creatures building section of ADRPG really meant to represent?

If those Qualities and Powers were actually an attempt to allow players to stat out anything from infinite/unlimited shadow, I'd say it is a pretty poor set of rules.

Again this Is is why I say pay for it all (but maybe reduce the time to seek items or better run it factorially. 1 point powers take 4 hours , 2 point powers 16 hours, 4 point powers 64 hours, 8 point power 256 hours. So to find a creature with 3 1 point powers takes 12 hours, but to find a creture with an 8 point power takes nearly 11 days.) just so its consistent.

Lets say we take that "pay for it all" business literally, how long would it take for an Amberite to find a big whale?

I'd guess a big whale could easily be stronger than Gerard. Gerard Strength is 16 points. Assuming that we are looking for a 32 point ability using the method outlined above, it would take a long time to find a whale.

[jibbajibba]

I think the better question might be: what am I buying?

I mean, what are the Qualities & Powers listed in the Artifacts and Creatures building section of ADRPG really meant to represent?

If those Qualities and Powers were actually an attempt to allow players to stat out anything from infinite/unlimited shadow, I'd say it is a pretty poor set of rules.



Lets say we take that "pay for it all" business literally, how long would it take for an Amberite to find a big whale?

I'd guess a big whale could easily be stronger than Gerard. Gerard Strength is 16 points. Assuming that we are looking for a 32 point ability using the method outlined above, it would take a long time to find a whale.

Well they are heavily endangered and the Japanese and Norwegian perchant for eating them doesn't help

[Croaker]

Part of the problem with this perspective is that, from a pure "physical laws" argument, even things like normal horses should be limited. A horse depends on all sorts of complex bio-chemical reactions to keep functioning. And if those laws change too much, it should not work any better than a gun taken off into a distant shadow.

Of course, in the books, horses (and other living things) do keep functioning---but we are not told why. Do living creatures adapt to different physical laws as they travel between shadows? If so, why wouldn't this effect apply to more exotic creatures?

Maybe but, well, it doesn't work that way in Amber.

If I may, I'd remind you that neither Zelazny nor Erik were, AFAIK, scientists. Maybe that, in reality, you can't have physical laws that stop gunpowder explosion without having horses dying. But Zelazny wasn't writing a physics treatise. He was writing a book, while Erik was writing a game. So, if it felt right to have, say floating rocks but no guns, you'd have them, even if, in reality, such a thing would be impossible.

You can of course alter this to your whims.
I'm just giving you a solution to most GM problems that is mostly coherent with the books and keeps the "amber feel" jibba spoke about.

"All things are possible with in it" is a much heavier statement than saying it is infinite (for the reasons you have already pointed out).

Consider that:
- Corwin may have a limited imagination
- Corwin may be lying about his capacities to a potential ennemy
- Corwin may be boasting to his son
- Corwin may be wrong (he's been at times, and you can find conflicting statements in the books)
- Corwin may just use the words not litterarily, but as a writer and poet: This is much better that, say "most things are possible in shadow"
- There a difference between "everything is possible in shadow" and "everything exists in shadow". The first may mean that everything you want to do is possible in shadow.

But the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.

Disagreed.

You can reach them through pattern/logrus. In fact, you MUST reach them that way, through shadowalking. If they were in, say, undershadow, or utterly unreachable through this, I'd agree. Not there. If you're in shadow and search fro the pattern, you won't end up in Amber? Are you sure of this?

That god thing is surely possible. It just doesn't seem very right for this to be common: When you see how ghostwheel and corwin's pattern were assaulted, you'd think the Logrus and Pattern would have destroyed/enslaved most such powers.


But let me ask you a question here. 2, in fact.
What do YOU want? What is YOUR opinion on this?
Cause I'm having a hard time determining it. If you want armies of free Black Bolts under the tip of each prince, ready to attack Amber with their sonic scream... Well, do it! It's you game after all, and this may be fun. But then, why are you even asking, especially if it is to disagree with everything that's been said by everyone?

[jibbajibba]

Nice summary Coaker.

From my perspective what I want is a simple way to make looking for powerful beings possible but expensive in time terms so that you won't do it on a whim.

I want the rules on this to be consistent enough that a player can't game an advantage by selecting the correct 'base unit' for whom powers x through y are inherent.

So in the angel or black bolt (that example was mine as well ) case I don't want players to be able to get a shedload of stuff free that another guy paid for because he doesn't know the system. Likewise I want powerful uber beings to be theoretically possible but practically too much effort.

But going back to the OP . Opinions on some of this stuff differ

[warp9]

Well they are heavily endangered and the Japanese and Norwegian perchant for eating them doesn't help

I can't argue with that point.

Still, you can't have those pesky humans (whale-killers) in every version of Earth.

[warp9]

Maybe but, well, it doesn't work that way in Amber.

If I may, I'd remind you that neither Zelazny nor Erik were, AFAIK, scientists. Maybe that, in reality, you can't have physical laws that stop gunpowder explosion without having horses dying. But Zelazny wasn't writing a physics treatise. He was writing a book, while Erik was writing a game. So, if it felt right to have, say floating rocks but no guns, you'd have them, even if, in reality, such a thing would be impossible.

When I'm running a game, I may need to deal with issues which the characters in Zelazny's books never dealt with.

Corwin never asked why horses could survive when physical laws change. And when you are writing a book, your characters tend to stay with the script.

But player characters are a different matter. And that exact issue becomes very relevant if one is trying to import exotic creatures to Amber.

You can of course alter this to your whims.
I'm just giving you a solution to most GM problems that is mostly coherent with the books and keeps the "amber feel" jibba spoke about.

To my knowledge, the books never actually deal with the issue of taking super-exotic creatures across Shadows.

Would such creatures have the same problems as cars and guns, or would they, like horses, ignore those differences in physical laws?

Consider that:
- Corwin may have a limited imagination
- Corwin may be lying about his capacities to a potential ennemy
- Corwin may be boasting to his son
- Corwin may be wrong (he's been at times, and you can find conflicting statements in the books)
- Corwin may just use the words not litterarily, but as a writer and poet: This is much better that, say "most things are possible in shadow"

Maybe. But you can use these sorts of arguments to justify almost anything. Yes, Corwin could have been lying. And he could have been lying about a great many things.

- There a difference between "everything is possible in shadow" and "everything exists in shadow". The first may mean that everything you want to do is possible in shadow.

I'm not sure there is that much of a difference in those things; especially if one of those things I "want to do" involves the existence of some exotic object.

But the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.

Disagreed.

You can reach them through pattern/logrus. In fact, you MUST reach them that way, through shadowalking. If they were in, say, undershadow, or utterly unreachable through this, I'd agree. Not there. If you're in shadow and search fro the pattern, you won't end up in Amber? Are you sure of this?

It seems that it is possible to walk to Amber, or at least to the edge of it, in Shadow. But the books also make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Amber and Shadow. Corwin makes it very clear that "there is Shadow and there is Substance," and Amber is of Substance, which sets it apart from Shadow.

But let me ask you a question here. 2, in fact.
What do YOU want? What is YOUR opinion on this?
Cause I'm having a hard time determining it. If you want armies of free Black Bolts under the tip of each prince, ready to attack Amber with their sonic scream... Well, do it! It's you game after all, and this may be fun. But then, why are you even asking, especially if it is to disagree with everything that's been said by everyone?

What do I want?

What I'd like to see is a good solution to these issues. A solution that is consistent with the specific events of the books (both Corwin and Merlin series), and actually makes sense, in terms of the larger understanding of the universe we are given in the books (specifically the idea of un-limited Shadow).

Unfortunately, I am concerned that there are enough contradictions that no single perfect solution is possible (but since I haven't heard all the possible suggestions, I can't be sure about that).

   
(In the Past)

As a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution. And I'd like to see something better. . . .

So what are some of those better options?

Limiting Shadow is one option, but not one I'd really like as a player. I'd kind of resent having the GM going through the description of my personal shadows with a red pen, and marking out all the stuff which was "not-possible in Shadow."

Instead I'd go in other directions---I'd tend to either make Shadow very "un-real," or make it "all too real."

The "un-real" route means that what every toys or creatures that you find out in Shadow are insignificant compared to any real power (like an Amberite). But this state of affairs would contradict the books where things of Shadow could be dangerous to Amberites.

The "all too real" route is interesting, but would require more cunning from the GM. The idea here is that Amberites stay away from searching for anything too radical, because messing with that stuff is just too dangerous.

[warp9]

From my perspective what I want is a simple way to make looking for powerful beings possible but expensive in time terms so that you won't do it on a whim.

I have a number of problems with this solution.

(A) That method of doing things doesn't explain why Oberon didn't already have an army of Black-Bolts guarding Amber. He clearly had all the time in the world to set that up.

(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

(C) As in the case of whales or elephants, strong doesn't always mean "ultra-rare."

(D) The artifact/creature system in the ADRPG books simply isn't up to creating stats for more radical artifacts/creatures---there are not even rules for things like flight.

[jibbajibba]

I have a number of problems with this solution.

(A) That method of doing things doesn't explain why Oberon didn't already have an army of Black-Bolts guarding Amber. He clearly had all the time in the world to set that up.

(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

(C) As in the case of whales or elephants, strong doesn't always mean "ultra-rare."

(D) The artifact/creature system in the ADRPG books simply isn't up to creating stats for more radical artifacts/creatures---there are not even rules for things like flight.

I agree with all that apart from D. I think the system is so simple and adaptable that you can slot in any specific power.

My problem with C is that whilst I agree whales or buldozers are common but I don't want someone saying I can find black bolt for free because his powers are innate to black bolt just as a whales strength in innate. So my compromise is any creature that is not mundane on earth (on the weak basis that earth is a shadow of amber) come with costs thus my costing for those angels.
So making people pay for all aditianl powers means they area ll real in amber as well and the questiosn about do dragons loose their powers goes away

As for the prevous stuff about Amber not being of Shadow in that case we learn that that that is a lack or Corwin's knowledge as later he learns that Amber itself is just the first amongst shadows.

[weilide]

A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

[Evermasterx]

A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

I agree totally. The items which are really important must be earned by a lot of roleplaying and a lot of points. And the more powerful the hardest to control.

[warp9]

I agree with all that apart from D. I think the system is so simple and adaptable that you can slot in any specific power.

The system is simple, but beyond that, I'm not sure that it is all that adaptable.

Even something as simple as strength is a problem. The basic scale in the front of the book only covers a few options, up to Amber level strength, and even the enhanced values later on in the book (which btw are supposed to be off limits to the PCs) only get to Gerard level strength .

Assuming that we reverse the "off limits to PCs" thing, and let the characters get artifacts with higher powers than those listed in the start of the book. . . .

How many points of strength for Godzilla?

How many points of strength to represent the tractor beam of the Star Trek Enterprise?

How many points of strength for Superman?

My problem with C is that whilst I agree whales or buldozers are common but I don't want someone saying I can find black bolt for free because his powers are innate to black bolt just as a whales strength in innate. So my compromise is any creature that is not mundane on earth (on the weak basis that earth is a shadow of amber) come with costs thus my costing for those angels.
So making people pay for all aditianl powers means they area ll real in amber as well and the questiosn about do dragons loose their powers goes away

I'm not all that happy with the argument that Earth should be used as some sort of standard. I'd prefer your "pay for everything" stance instead.

But the primary issue I have with your methodology is not so much the point cost specifically, but the conversion of points to time. It seems that you'd end up with something like the Star Trek Enterprise being rated at some vast number of points, meaning it might take months (or years) to find a Star Trek shadow.

In other words, I don't care if King Kong costs big points, but IMO it shouldn't take weeks, months, or years, to find him out in Shadow.

As for the prevous stuff about Amber not being of Shadow in that case we learn that that that is a lack or Corwin's knowledge as later he learns that Amber itself is just the first amongst shadows.

You are correct. However, in the context of the conversation at hand I'm not sure it matters.

The real question was about whether the Pattern or the Logrus were of shadow, or not.

Corwin does learn that there is a higher reality than Amber, but that is the Primal Pattern.

And the point still stands that the place of the Primal Pattern is not just "another shadow." To my understanding, the Primal Pattern is supposed to be "real" and not "of Shadow."

[warp9]

A few thoughts.

First, I think a lot of the nastier headaches in ADRPG stem from the (to my mind) somewhat unwarranted notion that shadow is "infinite" in the sense of serving up anything one can possibly think of, ready-made to order. As I think I argued somewhere else around here at some point, there may be infinite number values between zero and one (.1, .2, .3...; .01, .02.,.03...; .001. .002. .003...) but by definition this grouping will never reach three. Similarly, though shadow may be "limitless" in some respects, it may be well-bounded in others. It seems to me to be quite legitimate to argue that certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there.

I've heard numerous versions of this argument.

There seems start with the idea that Shadow is described as "infinite" in the books, and moves on from there to a somewhat nit-picky analysis of "infinite." It always seems to go with the idea that infinite does not really include all possibilities. The main problem with this view is that Corwin does not stop with the use of "infinite" to describe shadow.

In Nine Princes In Amber, Corwin says: "If one is a prince or princess of the blood, then one may walk, crossing through Shadows, forcing one's environment to change as one passes, until it is finally in precisely the shape one desires it, and there stop."

He also says, at numerous times that, from a practical standpoint, somebody with power over shadow could create his own universe. But if you go with your position: "certain things are simply not available in shadow or, at least, so hard to come by that they may as well be not there," then that means, rather than creating your own universe, you are essentially limited to the possibilities which exist in shadow. To some extent you could sort of combine these factors, but it seems to me that, if there are too many arbitrary limits on what can/cannot exist in Shadow, you really get to the point where it is very clear that you are not able to create your own universe.

In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

Second, there seems to be an argument to be made that shadow travel works something akin to evolution, which is to say by incremental steps. If there were something that requires large, discontinuous qualitative leaps it might be inaccessible to conventional shadow walking (although something like Pattern teleportation might work).

That is possible, but I'd need to hear more regarding this part of your argument.

Third, most of what we're shown of shadow travel, especially in the first series, seems to suggest it is an imperfect process and a lot of valuable shadow stuff seems to be gotten at simply by way meandering around awaiting serendipity. Corwin's "gunpowder" is a case in point. Evidently it doesn't work to simply walk toward "a shadow with gunpowder that ignites in Amber" or everyone would have done it long ago. Instead chance seems to play a major role. I like to think of this in terms of the Borges story "The Library of Babel," concerning an infinitely large library, filled with bound volumes containing ever possible configuration of letters. Among these, most are gibberish but a small portion are intelligible, and among them, an even tinier portion say something useful. The library is full of itinerant librarians who spend their lives seeking out those precious view volumes that actually say something useful. I sometimes think of the situation in Shadow as something analogous.

I think you are mixing two things here. The issue of whether shadow walking is an inherently imperfect process, and the issue of whether they can search for something as abstract as "gunpowder that ignites in Amber."

It seems to me that Corwin makes it pretty clear that they have quite a bit of control over what they can find in Shadow, and that they can find what they want. But it also seems to be a fairly visual process, rather than a totally abstract process. For example, you might walk toward Amber by shifting for the right color sky, and then begin adding the other details as you go along.

I would just argue that one can't search for something as abstract as "gunpowder that ignites in Amber."


IMO the description of the way shadow-walking works in the books doesn't  fit with the "The Library of Babel" concept. They seem to be able to really home in on what they visualize, rather than haphazardly going along, hoping that maybe they'll stumble upon the object of their desire.

Although I will add that the idea of a vast-deep unknown sea of Shadow, where one has to go out and randomly explore the unknown, is an interesting idea.

Fourth, and somewhat more practically, I think it makes sense for players to "pay for" powerful shadow creatures with a commensurate investment of roleplaying effort. That is to say, the more powerful a creature is, the less inclined it will be to have terms dictated to it; some groveling shadow weakling will be a pushover but some enormous dragon will be disinclined to help the PC without hours and hours of playtime spent persuading the creature, building a relationship, running tedious errands, etc., and even then they may remain rather mercurial. (Remember that Corwin states that the one thing he and his siblings cannot shift for is personality). In most cases, who has the time? Here the answer to why Oberon didn't populate Amber with a legions of Black Bolts would be that each recruitment would be a ridiculous nuisance and Oberon didn't care to bother, especially since Amber generally seems to get by well enough with conventional troops commanded by the princes.

I do agree that there is a big danger in working with flunkies which are so powerful that they pose a major threat to Amberites, but regarding the rest of your point, my response is that power is a relative thing. . . .

The lowliest groveling star-trek soldier has access to weapons that would lay waste to entire ancient armies.  And in a whole world full of Black Bolts, being Black Bolt is not that big a deal.

[jibbajibba]

The system is simple, but beyond that, I'm not sure that it is all that adaptable.

Even something as simple as strength is a problem. The basic scale in the front of the book only covers a few options, up to Amber level strength, and even the enhanced values later on in the book (which btw are supposed to be off limits to the PCs) only get to Gerard level strength .

Assuming that we reverse the "off limits to PCs" thing, and let the characters get artifacts with higher powers than those listed in the start of the book. . . .

How many points of strength for Godzilla?

How many points of strength to represent the tractor beam of the Star Trek Enterprise?

How many points of strength for Superman?




I'm not all that happy with the argument that Earth should be used as some sort of standard. I'd prefer your "pay for everything" stance instead.

But the primary issue I have with your methodology is not so much the point cost specifically, but the conversion of points to time. It seems that you'd end up with something like the Star Trek Enterprise being rated at some vast number of points, meaning it might take months (or years) to find a Star Trek shadow.

In other words, I don't care if King Kong costs big points, but IMO it shouldn't take weeks, months, or years, to find him out in Shadow.

Again I agree with you. finding a world of Dinosaurs should be easy and in all probability they should stay dinosaurs if you bring them to Amber. I agree there are holes but I am trying to work with the system and establish some ground rules. The only way I think you can do that is to charge points and therefore time for 'exceptional stuff' . Like I said before I am not very consistant and its a flaw. If a player said to be I will add a jet plume in the sky then I will add a jet and then I will add a shuttle and thicken the cloud and when it clears I want to see The Valiant (the bloody big skyship aircraft carrier out of Dr Who) I would let them. If they were looking for an army of Angels or velociraptors or black bolts i woul work out the time base don points and that is how long it would take. I agree the tiems per points doen; seem very much like the books but ther ehas to be a time spend and some roleplay.

[Croaker]

Lost AGAIN my post... AAAARGH!!!!

When I'm running a game, I may need to deal with issues which the characters in Zelazny's books never dealt with.

Corwin never asked why horses could survive when physical laws change. And when you are writing a book, your characters tend to stay with the script.

But player characters are a different matter. And that exact issue becomes very relevant if one is trying to import exotic creatures to Amber.

It seems you didn't understood my point.

This is not a scientific treatise of the practical implications of 10% more electrical charge on bronze atoms. This is a game, based on a book.

So, maybe that, in reality, you can't have living horses if, say, you can't have laser bolts.
But, unless you play with biologists or chemists who also happen to be unable to leave work at home, this'll never be a point. I mean, can you tell me if this is possible/impossible with 100% accuracy?

Authors and game designers often don't bother much with real-world science, especially as it has been proven before to be wrong (flat earth^^). They aim for a feeling and a theme, with that whole "shadow laws" being mostly fluff to explain it. That's what you should seek, a theme, and stick your "scientific explanations" around it, be it medieval amber or superpowered amber.

IMO, if your players are accepting magic and trumps without a question, but bothering you about their guns not working when their horses do, they're probably trying to munchkinise their way out. And if they question everything as not possible? Why are they even playing?

I mean, I find it pretty ludicrous that your players would question the whole "the physical laws of the shadows permit medieval-level tech but no more" and not superman's powers with their wacky scientific rationnale.  

So, tell them either:
- That this is a game, and that they should leave their science at home. If every GM/Author needed to be scientifically accurate, you'd have never read Amber, nor any sf for that matter.
- That this is strange only if their character has enough scientific knowledge, but that it works that way. Why? That's the question. Maybe their character's science is wrong (Do you recall the Ether? It was science.). Maybe there's something else.

To my knowledge, the books never actually deal with the issue of taking super-exotic creatures across Shadows.

Would such creatures have the same problems as cars and guns, or would they, like horses, ignore those differences in physical laws?

Well, it at least dealt with magic, dragons and gods. I can't see any reason why, say, Marvel Thor's powers shouldn't follow the same rules.

I'm not sure there is that much of a difference in those things; especially if one of those things I "want to do" involves the existence of some exotic object.

Well, maybe you're more the scientific than the writer, but the difference is rather clear to me, unless you begin to try to verbiose your way out like "I want to attack amber with archangels" :lol: in which case you're no longer dealing with what is possible to you, nor with shadow (unless you're attacking a Shadow Amber).
Sadly, I don't find words to explain it to you better

Maybe the reverse? The fact that everything exists in shadow doesn't mean you can do everything that you want.

Let's try a simple exemple:
- You want to fly, to lift tanks, to see through things... It is possible in shadow, you just have to find a shadow where local laws allow it, or give everyone telekinesis, whatever, because everything you want to do is possible somewhere. But, still for exemple, archangels don't exist in shadow, because everything doesn't exist.
- You want to find archangels in shadow. They exist (everything exists). But it is not possible for you to fly, because, well, you're just a human, and everything's not possible).

I'm sorry, I just can't explain it better.

It seems that it is possible to walk to Amber, or at least to the edge of it, in Shadow. But the books also make it clear that there is a fundamental difference between Amber and Shadow. Corwin makes it very clear that "there is Shadow and there is Substance," and Amber is of Substance, which sets it apart from Shadow.

And he gets proved wrong later, when Oberon shift shadows in Amber, in order to bring him before the Primal Pattern.
You'll say "Ok, but then, the primal pattern is separate from shadow, Amber being a shadow"... Even agreeing with that, if Amber is part of shadow, then you can search Shadow for the pattern.

Note nonetheless that, if the primal pattern was separate from Shadow, it'd be unreachable through shadowalk. Yet, you actually need to shadowalk to reach it. It may be "real", but it changes nothing to the fact that, if you're in shadow and searching for the pattern, you'll end up in Amber, not the courts.

As a GM, it has always been my philosophy that guns, phasers, light-sabers, Stormbringer, jedi-kinghts, kryptonians, and Green-Lantern-Rings, all fit into one category of very powerful creatures/items which do not cost points, yet do not work far outside their home shadows. Whereas items made with those special Amber DRPG qualities, like Merlin's Frakir, cost points and will be reliable pretty much anywhere.

However, I do not think that the above is an ideal solution.

Why?
If it poses you no problem with magic and dragons, why would it be more difficult with phasers and kryptonians?

Especially with kryptonians, in fact: We already know that, under different light wavelength (red sun), they lose their powers. It is so difficult to imagine that the superman's earth sunlight is very specific? Or that their powers also require other home-related conditions (like a specific mass for carbon atoms, add 1/1000000 of that and it doesn't work)?

The "all too real" route is interesting, but would require more cunning from the GM. The idea here is that Amberites stay away from searching for anything too radical, because messing with that stuff is just too dangerous.

I've said it before: The fact that you may find anything in shadow doesn't mean that you can find it in unlimited quantities, and the more specific you get, the more time it takes. And yes, some things (a mobile and tame ygg, for exemple) might just be impossible to find.

So, your player may, for exemple, find Stormbringer. It doesn't mean he'll nescessarily find a thousand of it (he may, or not, it's your game). It doesn't mean it won't try to devour his sould.
It may even be initially well-disposed to him (just as he sought) but betray him later (maybe because it was subservient to someone else).

But whatever. Take your  ideas, however you want them to play out, and give them a try! Maybe it won't work, and maybe you'll get a blast out of it!

(B) We don't have any examples of ultra-long hell-rides in the books. The characters were able to get to even extremely different shadows fairly quickly. It is a big change to say: "if you want to find any place radical or intersing, it'll take you weeks or months."

Sigh...
Then again: finding a given shadow is fairly quick.

IIRC, corwin impresses bleys with his blue guys because he was quick to find them. And they're basically humans faithful to him. The more powerful creatures are inversely rarer, from the werewolves to the hellhounds to Morgenstern, probably due to this: At no moment do we see corwin search for something unknown and powerful.
A contrario, when merlin explains Ghostwheel, he talks of the time he spent finding the shadow he needed and designing it.

Another exemple? Magic swords and rings of powers abound in shadow. Yet, grayswandir and werewindle are rare enough to warrant a name, and we don't see anyone wearing spikards.

In fact, in game terms, this comes down to a pretty simple question: can I get what I want in my character's private shadow? Or do I need to GM to go over every bit of it to make sure that it is stuff which can "exist in shadow" ?

For the Nth time: YES, because your shadow local laws are tailored to suit it, whatever it is. Go outside and, deprived of your shadow's support, somethings won't work.

Although I will add that the idea of a vast-deep unknown sea of Shadow, where one has to go out and randomly explore the unknown, is an interesting idea.

The Abyss. The divers.


Tired, it's late, gonna get to slepp

[finarvyn]

And ultimately we know that superman, the starship Enterprise, Strombringer (and so on) are all items of shadow and not substance. So they may kick butt against other things of shadow, but they aren't "real" compared to Pattern or Logrus or whatever.

So that phaser can shoot through rock, but it can't punch a hole in a simple Pattern defensive shield.