A few questions

[warp9]

I can basically agree with this point, although it does sort of raise the question about how you know whether or not the "angel keeps his powers outside of his home shadow."

Default is: They don't.

To have them keep their powers (or at least some of it) outside means they're important enough so that, in fact, you searched not a fantastic shadow, but an army of angels that can work in shadow. THAT is rare. So, you determine their point cost "everywhere", and use normal guidelines to know how much time it takes to find them.
Pretty simple, actually

The issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

[warp9]

Now you seem to be saying you wouldn't impose any points unless they wanted to ride on that dragon out of its home shadow. I don't think this is consistent with the novels. If you find red dragons they can either move through shadow or not. Its not a cse of two versions of the thing depending on 'the journey'.

That's exactly what I'd do, and it seems entirely consistent with the novels. What I don't understand is why you seem to think that there is only one kind of red dragon in the universe. There are an infinite number of shadows with infinite variations of red dragons. Of course there are differences.

A dragon whose powers work further outside it's own shadow is going to be rarer, however, and therefore take more time to find. Hellriding 'the journey' doesn't somehow modify the same dragon that you would find if you rode to an ordinary D&D shadow, it takes you to an entirely different dragon. It's only natural that different journeys lead to different destinations.

Hellriding to an item of desires isn't simply a matter of distance. Remember, Corwin passed Yig in about 3 days of hellriding, yet finding even a 4 point sword would take 4 days but you'd still probably be on the near side of Yig. If it was a matter of distance, an 8 or 12 point item would put you past the Abyss.

In my games, hellriding to an item isn't primarily about distance, it's about searching for a sufficiently Real version of the item, needle-in-a-haystack style. Real things are, by definition, rarer than their shadow counterparts and therefore harder to find.
 

In theory Corwin didn't need to go to all that effort of getitg gunpower he could have just gone to a shadow where the general population were all clones of The Black Bolt, recruited an army of uber sonic weapon folk and brought them to Amber to lay waste.

Under my interpretation of the rules this is impossible, so I see no inconsistency between the rules and the tone of the books. The Black Bolt's powers don't work in Amber so a shadow full of him is useless.

I do agree with these points.

Although, I'd also say that I might like explore some other methods of doing things.

[Croaker]

The issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

[jibbajibba]

Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

the gunpowder thing is interesting when you analyse it. Corwin found it by accident. Refinding it was trivial. So that would imply once you have found a host of angels you can always find such angels very easily. It also fits with Corwin's reuse of the short furry guys.

With this being said one would have thought that every Amberite would have spent a year in a quiet spell finding a bunch of ultimate soldiers. Just in case they might be deeded later. How would you cost that ? make them pay with points but use some modifier on quantity ?

[Croaker]

the gunpowder thing is interesting when you analyse it. Corwin found it by accident. Refinding it was trivial. So that would imply once you have found a host of angels you can always find such angels very easily. It also fits with Corwin's reuse of the short furry guys.

With this being said one would have thought that every Amberite would have spent a year in a quiet spell finding a bunch of ultimate soldiers. Just in case they might be deeded later. How would you cost that ? make them pay with points but use some modifier on quantity ?

Corwin said he found it by accident

How I would rate such an army? Just use the rulebook, p67: Points*quantity => total points, which determines times spent searching it (like, a day of hellride per point).
And never forget that, unless paid with points, you can never be sure of your army's allegiance or behaviour

[Evermasterx]

Corwin said he found it by accident

How I would rate such an army? Just use the rulebook, p67: Points*quantity => total points, which determines times spent searching it (like, a day of hellride per point).
And never forget that, unless paid with points, you can never be sure of your army's allegiance or behaviour

I would do the same thing

[warp9]

The issue here is: how does my character actually know the difference between these types of angels?

Can he hell-ride to angels that can function in shadow, or can he say he is "hell-riding to gun-powder that works in Amber" ?

I can understand how he can find gun-powder out in some shadow, but I'm not sure he can specify gun-powder that works in specific other places.

Well, how does he knows the difference between, say, Corwin and his shadow?
Fact is, he doesn't.
Yet he can search Shadow for Corwin, and he'll find him, not a shadow.

By the same token, he can search for these angels.

The gunpowder poses an interesting problem, since it suggest that either:
- Some things just can't exist in shadow. Infinite doesn't mean all-encompassing (For exemple, the... ensemble of "whole numbers" is infinite, but doesn't, for exemple, contains 2,5).
- Some things are so improbable that they take a very long time to search. So much time in fact (months? Years? Decades? Centuries?) that everyone stopped before finding them.

I just don't think there is anything in the books that leads us to believe that a Shadow like Avalon (with Amber-functional gun powder) would take Years, Decades, or even Centuries, to find.

In fact, the whole argument of "reality" doesn't seem to apply anyway. The issue was not that Earth gunpowder wasn't "real enough" to function in Amber. Instead it is stated that Amber has different chemical laws so things that work in Amber don't work on Shadow Earth, and things that work on Shadow Earth don't work in Amber. The gunpowder that worked in Amber was inert on Shadow Earth, and that can't be because it "wasn't real enough" to work there.

[Croaker]

I just don't think there is anything in the books that leads us to believe that a Shadow like Avalon (with Amber-functional gun powder) would take Years, Decades, or even Centuries, to find.

In fact, the whole argument of "reality" doesn't seem to apply anyway. The issue was not that Earth gunpowder wasn't "real enough" to function in Amber. Instead it is stated that Amber has different chemical laws so things that work in Amber don't work on Shadow Earth, and things that work on Shadow Earth don't work in Amber. The gunpowder that worked in Amber was inert on Shadow Earth, and that can't be because it "wasn't real enough" to work there.

You're confusing 2 things IMO, even if sometimes they work under similar rules:

- The "reality" (for lack of a better term) of a shadow creature/artifact that enables it to function mostly as if anywhere in shadow. This also includes the scarcity of sheer natural talent (like artifact-level attributes for human). These are rare enough for Morgenstern to have taken julian effort to find/create (and he has ONE of these), for Corwin to impress bleys with his blue guys, and for the keep of the 4 worlds to be a single occurence in the series

- "Shadow" laws, which define how things work in that shadow. For exemple, the gunpowder isn't explosive in Avalon or everywhere in Shadow, only in Amber, under Amber particular physical laws (And, IIRC, The courts, which should indicate both share similar physical laws, at least on some aspects)

Note that, even if we believe Corwin, his brothers and him spend centuries searching for gunpowder that'd work in Amber, and had all but forsaken this research until corwin found it by sheer luck.
A shadow like Avalon, by itself, is nothing special. They spend all this time searching because they wanted "a shadow where I'll find gunpowder that works in Amber".

[warp9]

You're confusing 2 things IMO, even if sometimes they work under similar rules:

- The "reality" (for lack of a better term) of a shadow creature/artifact that enables it to function mostly as if anywhere in shadow. This also includes the scarcity of sheer natural talent (like artifact-level attributes for human). These are rare enough for Morgenstern to have taken julian effort to find/create (and he has ONE of these), for Corwin to impress bleys with his blue guys, and for the keep of the 4 worlds to be a single occurence in the series

- "Shadow" laws, which define how things work in that shadow. For exemple, the gunpowder isn't explosive in Avalon or everywhere in Shadow, only in Amber, under Amber particular physical laws (And, IIRC, The courts, which should indicate both share similar physical laws, at least on some aspects)

But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

Note that, even if we believe Corwin, his brothers and him spend centuries searching for gunpowder that'd work in Amber, and had all but forsaken this research until corwin found it by sheer luck.
A shadow like Avalon, by itself, is nothing special. They spend all this time searching because they wanted "a shadow where I'll find gunpowder that works in Amber".

Or maybe another answer is that they simply can't search for something which is that abstract.

[jibbajibba]

But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

I agree we never see this in the books. It's a game explanation for 'if the universe is infinite then I will get an army of supermen' . You have to have something in place that says all things are infinite but finding them takes time.
That is my driver for simply charging for all stuff that is 'exceptional' because then there is no difference between levels of reality.
My caveat being magic and tech and I think that changes between shadows although a sorcerer from one shadow could probably leran ho magic works in another shadow given time (this goes back to my shadow profiel idea where magic and tech are variables)

[warp9]

I agree we never see this in the books. It's a game explanation for 'if the universe is infinite then I will get an army of supermen' . You have to have something in place that says all things are infinite but finding them takes time.

The problem is that time is not that much of a barrier to Amberites: they have a lot of it. If time were the only issue, then every Amberite should have an army of supermen.

It seems to me that one of the following explanations might be better:

   (Option A) Maybe you can find your supermen, but due to the difference in physical laws, their powers would not work in a place like Amber.

(Option B) Maybe there are some things which you simply can't find out in Shadow, and kryptonians are among those things.

(Option C) Maybe some things are simply too dangerous to go looking for. If you search for beings of great power, you will often find more than you were looking for, and discover that you've opened a Pandora's box (or created a Frankenstein's Monster).

My caveat being magic and tech and I think that changes between shadows although a sorcerer from one shadow could probably leran ho magic works in another shadow given time (this goes back to my shadow profiel idea where magic and tech are variables)

I'm not sure how easily an AD&D wizard would adapt to other very different magic systems (examples that come to my mind are the Shadowrun magic system, or a magic system like that in Mage:the Ascension). In those cases, his previous knowledge would have so little validity that he wouldn't have much of an advantage on an average person. And, in fact, it might be even worse for the AD&D wizard; he'd have a whole set of pre-conceptions about how magic should work, which would probably just get in his way.

[Croaker]

But do we actually see this "reality" issue coming up in any of the series?

I used "reality" as a short hand, a rapid explanation. You can use "scarcity", "probability"... whatever.

The fact is, you're searching for "Shadowlings that fight as well as Amberites" (4-pts warfare). This is quite rare/improbable so it'll take time.
Now, if you search for "Shadowlings with superpowers that give them enhanced reflexes and predictive abilities that allow them to fight as well as Amberites in their home shadow (Say, the Midnighter), this is more probable, because you're searching local shadow laws instead of... something intrinsic to them, I guess: Outside this shadow, they have nothing special.

The problem is that time is not that much of a barrier to Amberites: they have a lot of it. If time were the only issue, then every Amberite should have an army of supermen.

It seems to me that one of the following explanations might be better:

   (Option A) Maybe you can find your supermen, but due to the difference in physical laws, their powers would not work in a place like Amber.

(Option B) Maybe there are some things which you simply can't find out in Shadow, and kryptonians are among those things.

(Option C) Maybe some things are simply too dangerous to go looking for. If you search for beings of great power, you will often find more than you were looking for, and discover that you've opened a Pandora's box (or created a Frankenstein's Monster).

First, an army of supermen that don't work outside their home shadow is of little use. I draw a clear distinction between "Works due to local physical laws" (can be anything, even a god. Why restrain yourself to supermen?) and "works everywhere" (Look to C&A for this)

But let's tackle this, and consider that an army of supermen is possible. What's the problem? This is just the kind of BIG menace Eric spoke about in the basic ADRPS. I mean, what's the more dangerous? That, or a Monster big enough to devour whole Shadows?

I'd treat it as a construct, I guess.

Of course, if you want a more "corwinesque" feel, you might ban constructs completely, restrain yourself to basic C&A, and say no to this. There's nothing wrong with this: As I said above, the fact that shadow in infinite doesn't mean it contains everything, or in unlimited quantity, or that'll obey you.
For exemple, take your average God. In a given shadow, it may have near-unlimited power. Are cross-shadow gods possible? Some would say no. I'd say there exist at least 2: The Pattern and the Logrus. Can you find an army of pattern/logrus? I'd say no.

I'm not sure how easily an AD&D wizard would adapt to other very different magic systems (examples that come to my mind are the Shadowrun magic system, or a magic system like that in Mage:the Ascension). In those cases, his previous knowledge would have so little validity that he wouldn't have much of an advantage on an average person. And, in fact, it might be even worse for the AD&D wizard; he'd have a whole set of pre-conceptions about how magic should work, which would probably just get in his way.

Well, if he was dumped into a shadow similar enough for some of his spells to work, others almost, thus requiring adaptation, and with repeating the process, he might do well, and manage to learn Sorcery.
Else, I think you may very well be right.

[jibbajibba]

Well, if he was dumped into a shadow similar enough for some of his spells to work, others almost, thus requiring adaptation, and with repeating the process, he might do well, and manage to learn Sorcery.
Else, I think you may very well be right.

I would say that a DnD mage is merely wrapping ritual and classifiaction round Sorcery. His spells won't work but given time he can discover why they don't work and fix it.

In the same way a super techie might find his ray gun doesn't work but will in time learn the differences int eh laws of physica that prevent it and may get a different version working.

One of my big questions round this point debate is the whole what do you get for free part.

So in my army of angels example I made the player pay for all of it. but others have noted that a number of those features may be inherrent to the creature and should be free. What makes the free version limited to a shadow?
If I took the Free angel but added an additional point of something so my shadow wide army now cost 4 points but had the same stats as my previous version. Since I had paid for something does the rest work across shadow?

Again this Is is why I say pay for it all (but maybe reduce the time to seek items or better run it factorially. 1 point powers take 4 hours , 2 point powers 16 hours, 4 point powers 64 hours, 8 point power 256 hours. So to find a creature with 3 1 point powers takes 12 hours, but to find a creture with an 8 point power takes nearly 11 days.) just so its consistent.

[Croaker]

I'm not sure I understand you.

IIRC, you're asking "what if I want for free, say, a dragon, with basic dragon stats"?

As I told above, first, Amber is the basic of what you get for free and what should be. Everything else depends more or less on local shadow laws.
If something can't exist/keep its powers in Amber, it "costs" points (if only in term of search).

So, an elephant could exist in amber (I suppose), so, for 1-4 points, you can buy an intelligent elephant, who'll have an elephant's strength and stamina.
A cyborg, OTOH, couldn't, so you need to search for a basic human with point-based enhancement.

This is not perfect compared to the books, but mostly, it works and is coherent with the whole "shadow is Amber reflected" thing

Oh, and for the DnD mage, I disagree: Shadow magic isn't Amber magic. You can even know 20 different shadow magic without being able to use sorcery.

[warp9]

I used "reality" as a short hand, a rapid explanation. You can use "scarcity", "probability"... whatever.

The fact is, you're searching for "Shadowlings that fight as well as Amberites" (4-pts warfare). This is quite rare/improbable so it'll take time.
Now, if you search for "Shadowlings with superpowers that give them enhanced reflexes and predictive abilities that allow them to fight as well as Amberites in their home shadow (Say, the Midnighter), this is more probable, because you're searching local shadow laws instead of... something intrinsic to them, I guess: Outside this shadow, they have nothing special.

First, an army of supermen that don't work outside their home shadow is of little use. I draw a clear distinction between "Works due to local physical laws" (can be anything, even a god. Why restrain yourself to supermen?) and "works everywhere" (Look to C&A for this)

Part of the problem with this perspective is that, from a pure "physical laws" argument, even things like normal horses should be limited. A horse depends on all sorts of complex bio-chemical reactions to keep functioning. And if those laws change too much, it should not work any better than a gun taken off into a distant shadow.

Of course, in the books, horses (and other living things) do keep functioning---but we are not told why. Do living creatures adapt to different physical laws as they travel between shadows? If so, why wouldn't this effect apply to more exotic creatures?

As I said above, the fact that shadow in infinite doesn't mean it contains everything, or in unlimited quantity, or that'll obey you.

I agree that limiting Shadow is a tactic that some GMs might use. However, it is very important to understand one point: the books do not simply say that Shadow is infinite---they go much further. . . .

Consider Corwin's statement in Nine Princes In Amber:

   Shadow extends from Amber to Chaos, and all things are possible within it.

"All things are possible with in it" is a much heavier statement than saying it is infinite (for the reasons you have already pointed out).

For exemple, take your average God. In a given shadow, it may have near-unlimited power. Are cross-shadow gods possible? Some would say no. I'd say there exist at least 2: The Pattern and the Logrus. Can you find an army of pattern/logrus? I'd say no.

But the Pattern and the Logrus are not really "of Shadow." They are beyond Shadow, and that is different from searching within Shadow for "cross-shadow gods."

Although that doesn't prove that there cannot be god-like entities within Shadow, that have extreme powers which extend beyond their own Shadows.