RPGPundit Reviews: Advanced Fighting Fantasy
This is a review of "Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone's Advanced Fighting Fantasy: The Roleplaying Game". Whew.
The version I'm reviewing is the new edition of said game, written by Graham Bottley, published by Arion Games in collaboration with Cubicle 7.
Many of us can remember with fondness from our youth those great Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, which were like Choose Your Own Adventure, but with balls. It had a combat system! It was just one step away from being an actual RPG. That step was, of course, Dungeoneer: Advanced Fighting Fantasy, the RPG based on the FF gamebooks that came out sometime in the 80s to some considerable success. For many people, Fighting Fantasy, even before D&D, was their "gateway drug", it was the first thing even vaguely like roleplaying that they ever did. And for more than a few, AFF (or "Dungeoneer") was their first actual RPG. I still have, somewhere deep in the recesses of my library, my old Dungeoneer book, as well as Titan and Port Blacksand (two of the sourcebooks).
Now, Arion Games (who had previously re-published the Maelstrom RPG and the new Maelstrom Companion) have re-published the Advanced Fighting Fantasy book, the "Out of The Pit" monster book, and the Titan fantasy setting book. I'll be reviewing those latter two books sometime very soon; from what I can see, those two have been kept exactly as they were back when first released (I'm not 100% sure about Out of The Pit, as I didn't own it). AFF, on the other hand, has been extensively remade by Graham Bottley to be more playable. The old Dungeoneer was pretty fun, but it was, frankly, seriously limited as an RPG. It was too easy to get too powerful. The rules were just a bit too simplistic. The magic system was seriously messed up.
This new edition of AFF is Mr.Bottley's attempt to resolve all that. Does he succeed? Let's take a look.
Starting with the outside, there's one serious change, which is that the old Dungeoneer was an "oversize pocketbook", the same kind of format as the old Fighting Fantasy books. The new AFF is a full-sized RPG softcover. It has a redone cover but with the same awesome illustration that the cover of the old Dungeoneer featured, and the interior art is basically the same. The book clocks in at 175 pages.
The introduction gets right to the heart of what AFF is supposed to be about: Fighting. It presents the basic combat system mechanic before any other rule. That's perfect, because it makes clear the tone of the kind of games you're going to want to play with this system, high adventure, high violence. The combat system continues to be the tried and true one from the old FF books: you roll 2d6, add your Skill attribute (plus any bonus from special skills or other mods), your opponent does likewise, whoever rolled higher does damage. Damage is rolled on a special table by weapon type. If a character has armor, they roll on a special table to see how much damage was absorbed by the armor. Shields can further reduce damage. If a character is unarmored he can used Dodge to try to reduce damage.
Next, still before anything like character creation, we get a sample adventure, "The Well". This is a totally new adventure, different from the ones that appeared in the old Dungeoneer book. Those were quite good, this one is... well, its a fine totally random dungeon. I mean for fuck's sake, there's a dwarven tavern right smack dab in the middle of the dungeon, surrounded on all sides by rooms filled with monster and traps! Seriously, that must have been the worst business decision in the world.
Anyways, it too definitely sets the tone: dungeon crawl and gonzo. But I wonder if it doesn't go a bit too far? I recall that the original adventure in Dungeoneer was mostly hack n' slash but with a plot of rescuing some kind of princess from an evil wizard, and I think that on the whole that had been the better adventure.
Character creation has been changed from the old game. You used to have three stats: Skill, Stamina, and Luck. Now you have a fourth stat, Magic, which mostly resolves the problems the old game used to have with spellcasters. It used to be that all attributes were rolled randomly; now the default game is a point-buy system where you divide points into the stats (and it does it kind of awkwardly). I have heard Mr.Bottley say this was absolutely necessary for the sake of balance, and he may have a point, but on the other hand, I don't think anyone is going to be playing Advanced Fighting Fantasy for the "balance". In any case, in the appendix at the back of the game an optional system of random character generation is provided, and its better-balanced than the old random system was.
In the game, Skill handles your ability at any and all skills as well as hitting in combat. Stamina is your hit points, and Luck is basically your saving throws, though you can also use luck to try to help you in combat. Luck points decrease every time you use Luck, and replenish between games. Magic is the stat used for spellcasting, and its used in different ways in each of the three types of magic provided (more on that later). You also choose a race during character creation, the three provided as default races are human, elf and dwarf. Humans get a bonus to luck, elves to magic, and dwarves to stamina. Each race also gets differing special skills.
Special skills are what in any other RPG would just be called "skills". They are bonuses usually ranging from 1-4, and are added to one's Skill attribute or Magic attribute when checks are made in that relevant area. All skill checks are resolved with a 2d6 roll, where you have to get equal or less than the character's Skill (or Magic) attribute, modified by their special skill scores if any.
There are 48 special skills in all, divided into various categories. These include combat skills, which add bonuses to your Skill roll with specific weapons, and Magic skills which are required for the different kinds of magic available in the game. Knowledge special skills are rolled with EITHER your Skill or your Magic score, whichever is higher, allowing for Wizards to be learned in various lores without having to have a kickass combat score at the same time. In all, the system is quite well designed.
The special skills are a (modified) mechanic from the old Dungeoneer, but the Talents, which comes next, were not from that book. Each PC chooses a single talent, or special ability, for their character. These include such things as ambidexterity, Armour Training (which improves the benefits of wearing armour), Dark Seeing, Knighted (which starts you out at a high social class and with extra equipment), Silver Tongue (bonus to the social skills), and Trapmaster (a bonus to dealing with traps), plus plenty more.
Frankly, to me this section in particular should have been random selection. NOTHING will slow down character creation more than having to read players a list of 32 feats, explain what they are, and wait while they try to figure out which ONE of those will actually be the most useful for them. This step alone is likely to double character creation time, and that's a big mistake in a game where one of the great virtues is simplicity and ease of play.
Finally, you get a social status (which you can choose, or optionally is randomly rolled), and you get magic points if you're a spellcaster as well as choosing your initial spells. You start out the game with some pre-determined items rather than just having gold and then getting to buy what you want. The gamebook then provides you a set of archetypal PCs as examples and for instant play.
While the game system itself is quite simple, the game book provides a good deal of information about how to resolve a variety of issues in play. Rules are provided for movement, riding, climbing, falling, jumping, swimming (and drowning), dodging, encumbrance, social reactions, bribery, conning, disguise, trade, doors and locks, lighting conditions, fires, poison, disease, traps, awareness/perception, hiding, sleight of hand, and handling knowledge skills.
The combat system is expanded upon from the basic mechanic provided at the start of the book. Rules are provided for criticals and fumbles, multiple combat and attacks, missile combat, mounted combat, weapon descriptions, armour descriptions, surprise, unarmed combat, and special combat options; as well as injury, death, and healing.
So really, you get the best of both worlds with AFF; its a damned simple system, but most of the important situations that can arise in a typical adventure game are dealt with and options provided as to how to resolve them.
There are three magic systems in AFF; really four, if you count "minor magic" (which are like cantrips, and that anyone can have if they buy the skill in it, even characters who are otherwise non-spellcasters). The three major systems of magic are Wizardry, Sorcery, and Priestly power. Wizardry is like the basic spellcasting system brought over from the old Dungeoneer game; only now you use Magic and Magic points to resolve it rather than Skill and Stamina (this fixes the major problems of the old system).
Sorcery is the system from the old "Sorcery!" gamebooks (which were set in the fighting fantasy world of Titan, but on a different continent from the main setting of Allansia); and in this current book it takes the form of spells that are rolled with magic but cost Stamina rather than Spell points to use. Sorcery spells also often require material components to cast. While a Wizard starts with a limited number of spells, and must buy more with experience, the Sorcerer begins knowing all the Sorcery spells.
Wizards and Sorcerers are both only limited by their pool of either Magic Points or Stamina for casting spells; but they must make a successful magic check to cast a spell. If they fail, the points are spent but the spell doesn't go off. If they get double-sixes, they've had a magical fumble and must roll on the "oops" table, which has a variety of problematic effects (mostly non-lethal).
As for Priestly magic, in the old Dungeoneer there were no priest spells, but a list of priest spells were presented in the Port Blacksand sourcebook, that worked exactly the same as wizardry did, if I recall correctly. In the new AFF, priestly magic works very differently; you choose a deity, and each deity has a special unique power, plus three priest spells that this deity allows its priests to cast. Priests don't have to actually make any magic check at all to use their powers, their Magic score just becomes the measure of the level of power their spell has. Priests can only use each power once a day, but can spend a point of luck to cast a second spell in the same day.
One interesting detail about priestly powers is that only ONCE in their lifetime, a Priest can call on "Salvation", direct divine intervention to rescue themselves, and optionally their comrades from mortal peril. I thought that was a nice touch.
The book then gives a bit (about 6 pages worth) of setting material for the world of Titan, the famous setting of the FF books, focusing on the continent of Allansia, where most of those adventures took place. This is obviously very bare-bones setting info, meant to provide an extremely vague alternative to buying the Titan setting book. You get also a standard price list, with items priced according to their costs in cities, towns or villages.
After that we get a couple of pages of "Director" (GM) advice, and then a listing of some of the monsters of FF, in a big table with no thrills, again, this is a substitute to buying Out of the Pit. I notice that it gives some conversion notes for monsters from Out of The Pit, which seems to confirm that the latter book was reprinted straight without bothering to adapt it to the new system (for things like equivalent monster armor, monster weapon, and special abilities). This is interesting, was there some good reason why it wasn't done, or was it just author laziness? I guess the answer to that can wait until I review Out of the Pit in a short while. Some brief guidelines are provided in how to design other monsters, as well as NPC non-monster enemies.
Some guidance is provided in designing your adventures, for things like adventure location; plots, and there's an innovative though slightly gimmicky dungeon-design system provided. It starts by dropping a number of dice on a sheet of paper, noting where they fall and linking those spots (the rooms) with corridors, to create a dungeon. A set of simple random tables lets you fill in the dungeon, and a small sample dungeon ("agbar's retreat") is provided.
You also get treasure tables, which (like many details of this game) are closer in spirit to WFRP than D&D, you get (at most) hundreds rather than thousands or tens-of-thousands of GP, and magic items are quite rare; so that those items provided (and there's a decent list of magic items provided) tend toward what in D&D would be thought of as the lower end of the power spectrum. Of course, the way the system works, getting a magic sword that adds +1 to your damage or to your Skill is a pretty freaking huge help.
The last pages of the gamebook provide optional rules, including the aforementioned random character creation rules (which I for one certainly like more than point-buy), some guidelines to creating new character races, a few optional magic rules (including how to run "fallen priests" who have ended up on the outs with their deity), and an alternate method of skill resolution. A blank character sheet is provided, and then a reprinting of virtually all the important tables of the game right at the back for easy reference. You even get a couple of blank pages specifically noted for jotting down "house rules".
So the big question is how useful is this game as an actual RPG, and not just nostalgia? I played the crap out of dungeoneer when I was in my teens, and quite enjoyed it, but I know that I would not find it a really viable game to run today. Advanced Fighting Fantasy manages to fix up enough of the game that it suddenly becomes far more viable to consider running. Its style is very reminiscent of Warhammer, that thoroughly British sort of fantasy, and I do think that it would be kind of like WFRP's answer to Basic D&D; a faster lighter game compared to WFRP that I could play when I wanted the same kind of feel but didn't want to bother with the complexities of the former game. I have no plans right now to run AFF, but I can certainly see the possibility of it happening, particularly if I should ever need a game that is good for beginners, or that I want to be able start up quickly.
On the whole, I think that anyone who ever liked a fighting fantasy book will not be disappointed by this game.
The worst thing: The designer went too far in seeking to "balance" the system; Point buy sucks, and the list of Talents is a disaster waiting to happen. Fortunately, there's a random option for character creation, although unfortunately, that does not include a random table for talents (I mean seriously, would it have been so hard to include a table and then say "GMs have the option to require players to roll, or allow them to choose a talent"?).
The best thing: Pretty much everything. This book takes a classic and beloved game and remakes it into something totally playable and usable for relatively easy adventuring.
RPGPundit
Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti half-volcano + Gawith's Perfection
Quote from: RPGPundit;470874That step was, of course, Dungeoneer: Advanced Fighting Fantasy, the RPG based on the FF gamebooks that came out sometime in the 80s to some considerable success.
There was actually another one (Well, two) books before
Dungeoneer, called
Fighting Fantasy: The introductory role-playing game and
The Riddling Reaver.
FF was, essentially, the rules chapter from the solo books, but expanded and with two GM adventures (Which, iirc, have been combined and adjusted to become AFF2's mystic well). A lot of the rules came down to "roll against SKILL", ultimately, and it didn't have special skills.
TRR was basically a campaign book, but it did have rules for mages (Strongly based on those of
Citadel of Chaos), and introduced the variable weapon damage
AFF later used.
The new
Out of the Pit and
Titan are apparently just straight reprints, hence the updated monster stats in
AFF2.
I really enjoyed the playtest / convention game of AFF2 I was in, ran by Graham himself, and I'd utterly recommend it for anyone interested in old-school games. It's been updated but it still feels exactly like it should do, you can teach someone to play as they create their character (And that will only take a few minutes at most!), and it's simple enough to hack if you need to.
I think you're over-worried about the talents, though; in practice, they're not as important as, say, D20 feats, and simply asking "so what type of character do you want to play" would drastically cut down the amount of likely talents for a character. But bumping the list to 36 and making a D66 table would definitely have been neat for random-generation purists!
Coincidentally, we have just finished a session in a sporadic but very satisfying Titan campaign - although we were using my OGL variant, not the AFF rules. Titan is one of the better world books out there. Written for newbies, but it is completely suitable for anyone looking for an adventuresome fantasy setting.
I posted at the Xanga site as well, but here wer emy thoughts on the review:
Thanks for reviewing the book so comprehensively!
I will just comment on a couple of points. The point buy may not be to everyones tastes, but 95% of people i spoke to about the original identified the randomness as one reason why they wouldn't play it now. A 2D6 probability curve has little room for variability without making characters wildly disparate. Thus the point buy, which is fast, and allows all players to feel roughly equal.
As for the talents, i don't think there are that many, and they are quite obviously named, that they would cause much delay at char creation. The problem with random here is that you might end up with a warrior with "Natural mage", a thief with "armour training" etc. Their purpose is to further define a character from his otherwise similar colleagues, and each "type" has several talents, with others hat cross type boundaries.
Lastly, on the subject of Out of the Pit and the updated stats. The license for OotP was for a straight reprint only, so we had to put the new stats into the core book. They are fairly intuitive anyway.
Although rules-lite, the game does have a certain flavour and there is a lot of subtleties in there, and we have quite a few more books planned.
incidentally, 5 min before reading the review i was reading a thread at the purple one where the OP was saying he hates random Char creation and will never play a game if he is forced to randomly create anything about his character!
Different strokes and all that
Yes, it is always different strokes and whatnot; I will always personally advocate in favour of old-school randomization. Anyways, I'll reprint my response to your comment here too from the blog, just for completion's sake:
Thank you very much for your reply, Graham! That clarifies things about OOTP. Regarding the random character generation, I agree that the method shown in the old Dungeoneer game was one of its major flaws, but I think you address this quite nicely in the new random character generation option you include in the appendix of the new edition. I personally like that method far more than point-buy, and really appreciate you having put it in there.
I can see your point about randomizing the talents, but that might have been solved by having a player roll two (or three) times and getting to choose ONE talent out of the options rolled.
Anyways, I'm very glad to hear you have new books planned, care to give us any hints as to what they'll be about?
RPGPundit
Ladybird, I remember the original FF book fondly, though of course it was VERY basic. I also remember the Riddling Reaver, and what a totally excellent adventure it was.
RPGPundit
The next book out will be the Crown of Kings campaign, but we also have a Titan II and Out of the Pit II planned for soonish as well. We would also like to do The Riddling Reaver, A rules companion (with tha mass battle rules etc) and a Blacksand book.
Nice and thorough review, Pundit, as usual.
I recently rekindled with Fighting Fantasy, when I found a stack of the gamebooks dirt cheap in a used bookstore. Later I got the Titan, Dungeoneer and Port Blacksand (based on your recomendations) books on Ebay/Amazon and now hope run a campaign in the world of Titan.
Don't think I'll buy the new versions though, as I plan to use another system (LotFP), but it seems like it's nicely updated.
A note, if I remember correctly the "The Well" scenario was in Fighting Fantasy: The introductory role-playing game - I have memories of the crazy dwarf tavern in the middle of the dungeon, one of their dishes potentially made you attack the dwarf, didn't it?
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;470980A note, if I remember correctly the "The Well" scenario was in Fighting Fantasy: The introductory role-playing game - I have memories of the crazy dwarf tavern in the middle of the dungeon, one of their dishes potentially made you attack the dwarf, didn't it?
Pookies eating house it was. The Orc ale could make you attack anyone!
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;470980Nice and thorough review, Pundit, as usual.
I recently rekindled with Fighting Fantasy, when I found a stack of the gamebooks dirt cheap in a used bookstore. Later I got the Titan, Dungeoneer and Port Blacksand (based on your recomendations) books on Ebay/Amazon and now hope run a campaign in the world of Titan.
Don't think I'll buy the new versions though, as I plan to use another system (LotFP), but it seems like it's nicely updated.
A note, if I remember correctly the "The Well" scenario was in Fighting Fantasy: The introductory role-playing game - I have memories of the crazy dwarf tavern in the middle of the dungeon, one of their dishes potentially made you attack the dwarf, didn't it?
Huh, I didn't remember that. I only played FF for a very short while before getting Dungeoneer.
Quote from: bottg;470968The next book out will be the Crown of Kings campaign, but we also have a Titan II and Out of the Pit II planned for soonish as well. We would also like to do The Riddling Reaver, A rules companion (with tha mass battle rules etc) and a Blacksand book.
Sounds awesome! I look forward to reading it.
RPGPundit
I've been reading AFF recently, and I'm surprised by how much I like it. It has a lot more depth than I previously suspected (perhaps because my previous exposure to FF was primarily the original 'basic' game).
The power scale is appealing, with PCs starting out competent and improving incrementally thereafter.
I wonder how easy it would be to convert some of the classic FF solo books into AFF adventures?
Its a good question, I don't know the answer but I imagine that someone who wanted to put in the time could do it well enough...
So i just recently have been getting my group into AFF2, and i must say, the company decided to not go the PDF route (my opinion bad move but that is a different rant) however if they decide to do that they REALLY should add descriptive Spell Lists, or spell cards. to their Download page. with 7 people sharing one set of rulebooks passing the book and then looking up the spell description/ limitations take too much out of the game flo. i am surprised that no one has done this yet. but i been searching the internets for days now and not a single home made spell lists/ description chart. so i guess ill make one. (making one would be a heck easier if i had a PDF i could copy paste from) but this kinda thing should really be in the list of the official downloads nxt to the dm chart lists and character sheets.
Quote from: sehmerus;731501So i just recently have been getting my group into AFF2, and i must say, the company decided to not go the PDF route (my opinion bad move but that is a different rant) however if they decide to do that they REALLY should add descriptive Spell Lists, or spell cards. to their Download page. with 7 people sharing one set of rulebooks passing the book and then looking up the spell description/ limitations take too much out of the game flo. i am surprised that no one has done this yet. but i been searching the internets for days now and not a single home made spell lists/ description chart. so i guess ill make one. (making one would be a heck easier if i had a PDF i could copy paste from) but this kinda thing should really be in the list of the official downloads nxt to the dm chart lists and character sheets.
Unfortunately the pdf route was out of my hands as a condition of the license, but i am speaking to someone at the moment about producing a pack of wizard spell cards and some minor magic spell cards. For the sorcery spells we of course released a revised version of the Sorcery Spell book with all of the descriptions in.
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