Quote from: Darrin Kelley on May 30, 2024, 09:18:47 PMNobody has seemed to have complained that there are male units in the Adepta Sororitas. The Preacher for example.

What's your point?

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 30, 2024, 06:15:03 PM

Quote from: tenbones on May 29, 2024, 03:09:21 PMBecause we're coming from a design philosophy that cleaves directly from the spirit, if not the system of B/X which birthed it all. And that has to be done with great intent.

What does it mean, in concrete terms, when you say that a system cleaves to the spirit of B/X or that it has old-school DNA?  You do some criteria but they are extremely broad.  Almost anything that is not explicitly a story game could fall under that category.  Vampire:the Masquerade and Requiem could arguably fall under that category.  It has stats.  There are no explicit narrative mechanics despite pretensions to being a storygame.  The default campaign style is a city sized sandbox.  Is such a broad category meaningful or useful?     

That you take the system (originally the whole game) and build upon it. Is the game you mention in any way shape or form based on the same system?

For starters it's more a LARPing game than an RPG, then it doesn't use the same underlaying game engine. If you can find a way to:

Avoid any lawsuit from the owners of VtM
Make it work with an engine that's "Classic D&Dish"
Make it so it plays close to "Classic D&Dish"

Then it would be OSR, if not then it's not.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

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Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

And a little over a century after 1920 how many gun manufacturers are in Africa? With ANY quality as to compete with the rest of the world?

Building a makeshift gun is relatively easy, manufacturing an AR-15 not quite.

How many of you Americans would buy guns made by the Mexican manufacturer?

Ours are obviously inferior, not because of our "race" but lack of competition and free market.

But lets say you're 100% correct on your lecture of an unfinished manuscript, so, whatever character a writer creates is nothing but the writer's self insert? Or is this reserved for those you want to tar with charges of istophobia?

So, REH, having written more than one female led story was really trans?

Therefore, Simon and Kirby by creating the Red Skull & Captain America were at the same time (Jewish) nazis and anti-nazis?

Ergo Garth Ennis & Darick Robertson by creating The Boys are a couple of sociopaths?

And YOU by creating whatever evil NPC AND roleplaying it are nothing but whatever type of evil said NPCs were, right?

ALSO:

QuoteAnd soon the Tolkienesque template of D&D began to chafe, as did the varied inheritors of Tolkien's literary imaginings. (The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.) As much as I loved Middle-earth, it was still a world where lordship was borne in the blood, where inheriting country gentry were served faithfully by loving and dutiful servants, of the uncertain triumph of "Western civilization" over the dark and fallen peoples who stood against it. And while Tolkien's orcs and their filmic, gaming, and media iterations have been shaped by and expanded on savagist anti-Black and anti-Asian stereotypes, they're also informed by stereotypical ideas about Indigenous primitivism (as are his Drúedain, the reclusive Woses who aid the Rohirrim on their way to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

Why you always lying?

Nobody has seemed to have complained that there are male units in the Adepta Sororitas. The Preacher for example.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 30, 2024, 03:11:09 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 02:10:12 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 30, 2024, 05:09:43 AMDisney got on one of the LARP forums and asked alot of questions about LARPing and we answered as best we could.

We called it that they were planning some manner of interactive park. And not long after the interview Disney filed a patent on some LARP-like tech. And sure enough a few years later and SW: Galaxies is announced.

I wanted to go see it and the starship but alas that was never to be.

Take note in the review how she had so many problems with things going awry.

They could have made it work. Star Tours ran as a semi-interactive ride for decades.

There's a huge difference between a single contained ride where all the employees had to do was load you into/out of theatre boxes where you watch one of a handful of slightly interactive films vs dozens of employees pulling off multiple lines of extended LARPing.

The hotel's adventure structure was not fully freeform. If you did not hit the cues at the right time you could easily miss out on things. Or even nigh everything.

The actors must have had alot of pressure on them as they had to both know their beats AND be able to improvise. Like LARP NPCs. Just more rigid it seems.

Quote from: Brad on May 30, 2024, 05:28:42 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 30, 2024, 05:23:11 PMYou are comparing Elmore and Easely to that cover?  You need an optometrist...

Haha, no way man. I was making a joke about how people complained about Elmore when you get THIS. It's like saying you can't believe someone got vanilla over chocolate ice cream then a dude shows up with dog shit flavor.

My bad!  I couldn't fathom that you were serious... and you weren't.  So that's me too quick on the trigger.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 02:10:12 PMThey could have made it work. Star Tours ran as a semi-interactive ride for decades.

Star Trek TNG had a thing in Vegas very similar but on a smaller scale. No game-like elements though.

And of course the failed plan to make a LARP style Dream Park experience. With game elements. There was an article in Scry on it back in the 90s.

It can be done. But according to someone who worked on construction of the project the Execs kept trying to push for a deadline without enough of a safety buffer. This is the end result.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

Then if the unfinished manuscript The Last White Man is not representative of your claimed racism of Robert E Howard, then why do you keep using it as proof? Why do you keep saying that his Conan stories are racist?

Why do you continue to be intellectually dishonest?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 30, 2024, 06:15:03 PMWhat does it mean, in concrete terms, when you say that a system cleaves to the spirit of B/X or that it has old-school DNA?  You do some criteria but they are extremely broad.  Almost anything that is not explicitly a story game could fall under that category.  Vampire:the Masquerade and Requiem could arguably fall under that category.  It has stats.  There are no explicit narrative mechanics despite pretensions to being a storygame.  The default campaign style is a city sized sandbox.  Is such a broad category meaningful or useful?     

When did anything creative ever work by checking off a list of bullet points?

Why two editions of Vampire wouldn't be considered OSR?

• They both use systems that are very different from D&D. They are different in terms of the design of the system and the level and type of detail the system goes into.
• Because they both focus on depicting vampires in modern times, mostly in a modern urban environment.
• And while Vampire is noted for their sandbox environments, they put the bulk of their focus on the dynamics of conflicts between factions and the interpersonal relationships of PCs and NPCs.

Even if we are talking about Vampire the Dark Ages and Constantinople by Night, many thematic and mechanical differences make the result very different from D&D. Moreso, even when they are similar, there are major differences in emphasis.

If you want this reduced to a bullet list, it will not work. What is classic D&Dish is a judgment call. Some would say what I did for Blackmarsh and the Majestic Fantasy RPG is not very classic D&Dish, while most seem to feel that my efforts are squarely in the category of classic D&Dish.

I emphasize conflicts between factions and the interpersonal relationships between PCs and NPCs. They are set in the context of a world of D&D-style dungeons and adventures. In short, these elements are "in addition to" not "in lieu of". The same applies to the mechanics I added to my Majestic Fantasy RPG.