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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Zachary The First on September 24, 2008, 08:12:22 PM

Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Zachary The First on September 24, 2008, 08:12:22 PM
I cross-posted this from my blog (http://rpgblog2.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-top-10-d-adventures-of-all-time.html), because I thought it might make for a good topic.  I'm excited to see everyone's lists!:

I came across a post a while back over at Grognardia (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/) regarding the top 30 D&D modules/adventures of all time (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09/30-greatest-d-adventures-of-all-time.html). I've since then been struggling with my own list, but in the end, think it turned out pretty well. Check out my list, and then feel free to discuss, add your list, or reminisce about these picks!

Zachary's Top 10 List of D&D Modules

10.  White Plume Mountain (S2) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17064&it=1): James over at Grognardia said this was perhaps a bit too artificial a setup, but I've never had that problem with it in that sense. Perhaps just a little on the short side, but great puzzles to figure out.

9.  Dwellers of the Forbidden City (I1) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17046&it=1):  A nice, hefty virtual campaign unto itself.

8.  Dungeonland (EX1) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17039&it=1):  I don't hear this one bandied about much, but this is a great Gygaxian dungeon, if a little unreasonably for higher levels.

7.  Isle of Dread (X1) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17083&it=1):  Pulpy fun.  How fondly I still remember the maps!

6.  Bottle City (Pied Piper Publishing) (http://site.pied-piper-publishing.com/joomla/index2.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=5&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1):  An enjoyable piece of history from the original Lake Geneva campaign.

5.  The Village of Hommlet (T1) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17067&it=1):  I love Temple of Elemental Evil, but Hommlet remains my favorite part. Likely one of the best introductions to D&D one could ask for (see my #1 pick for my other choice).

4.  Against The Giants--Liberation of Geoff (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17288&it=1): I'm including the Silver Anniversary edition of this (yes, I know its 3 modules in 1), because that's the one I primarily played. This is a monster module collection, one that can give you months of adventures. This is a standard for any Greyhawk campaign I run.

3.  Tomb of Horrors (S1) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17063&it=1):  Your players will consider this cruel and unusual punishment. Then they'll come back asking for more.

2.  Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (S3) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17065&it=1):  Hardest. Damned. Module. Ever.  This is a damned abattoir, completely with gonzo sci-fi weaponry.

1.  Keep on the Borderlands (B2) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17158&it=1): A wonderful starter, and still likely the first module I'll run with my kids. As close to perfect as a D&D module can be. A no-brainer at the #1 spot.

Honorable Mention:  Palace of the Silver Princess (B3) (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17159&it=1): A very well-written beginner's module, this could on any given day squeeze into my top 10. There are a good half-dozen more that would warrant serious consideration, as well.


My worst?  Easily Castle Greyhawk (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17398&it=1) (WG7).  Some jokes just aren't funny.  And so it is with Castle Greyhawk.  Even some the really cruddy modules out there, like The Doomgrinder or Gargoyle, have a leg up on CG.

I'd love to hear everyone else's lists!
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: droog on September 24, 2008, 09:47:27 PM
I'm stuck in the early 80s, but out of the ones I played back then I'd say The Keep on the Borderlands, White Plume Mountain, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Castle Amber and the giant series were the most fun and most memorable.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: David R on September 24, 2008, 09:53:57 PM
My list would include adventures from the Al-Qadim setting.

Assassin Mountain
A Dozen and One Adventures
Secrets of the Lamp
Cities of Bone


All the above deserve a place on my list.

Regards,
David R
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on September 24, 2008, 11:00:15 PM
The only module I ever made a serious attempt to play was the RC-era one with the rakshasa who were in some sort of samurai pavilion set-up. No idea what the name of it was. It was OK, but not great.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Drew on September 25, 2008, 02:24:10 AM
My favourites divided between BD&D, US and UK AD&D:

B1: In Search of the Unknown

B2: The Keep on the Borderlands

B3: Palace of the Silver Princess

B4: The Lost City

B10: Night's Dark Terror

U1-3 : The Saltmarsh Trilogy

UK2: The Sentinel

UK3: The Gauntlet

UK4: When A Star Falls

T1: The Village of Hommlett

GDQ 1-7: The Lolth Series
(the individual modules, not the Queen of the Demonweb Pits anthology)


There's a crowd of what I consider to be second tier stuff that didin't quite make the list, including solid early AD&D entries (I1, N1) and well executed curios (O2: Blade of Vengeance).
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Jackalope on September 25, 2008, 02:34:58 AM
10. Palace of the Silver Princess (B3)

9. Sword of the Dales Trilogy

8. White Plume Mountain (S2)

7. Idylls of the Rat King (DCC#1)

6. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (S3)

5. Against The Iron Giant (WFF#2)

4. Scourge Of The Slave Lords (A1-4)

3. Through the Night (Dungeon #26)

2. Legacy of the Savage Kings (DCC #17)

1. Keep On The Borderlands (B2)
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Zachary The First on September 25, 2008, 07:03:00 PM
Good lists!  Look at Keep on the Borderlands get the love!
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Caesar Slaad on September 25, 2008, 08:25:22 PM
I actually was on the panel that contributed to the original article. Of course, there were lots of folks on the panel, so it's not quite all my handiwork. That said, at least is WAS a panel. As much as I respect James as an RPG writer, I don't take his declaration that oh so many adventures on the list weren't noteworthy.

I wish I could find my original list that I nominated in the article. However, lots of adventures have come out since then, and there was only one non-official adventure in the bunch, and lots of good third party adventures came out in the D20 era, a few of which I consider new jewels in my collection. (Not necessarily in order of preference)

1) GDQ1-7 - It's a cop out I took before, and I'm taking it again. :) Seriously, the giants series was great fun for my players, and the Vault of the Drow's "setting driven design" became a model that I would base my gaming on throughout my DMing "career". And yes, even the much-smack-talked-by-grognards Q1 I consider an imaginative foray with great extended campaign potential. It had 4 cool little mini-worlds in it!

2) Desert of Desolation - Yeah, cop out number 2. Another epic and imaginative series of adventures. Yeah, Martek was a dick.

3) Dwellers in the Forbidden City - another wide open "setting driven adventure" that is the bread and butter of my gaming.

4) Dead Gods - I help put that one on the list, and I'll repeat it. It's a nice epic adventure with cool mysteries, exploration, and a classic moody villain.

5) Ruins of Undermountain - caught me again. Another adventure that is more a setting than an adventure. This one had a nice packed book with lots of neat encounter areas, fantastic and memorable maps, and lots of room to weave my own plots and machinions in.

6) Hidden Shrine of Tamochan - a really cool little classic adventure, one that is more about exploration than bashing monsters. A lot of fun and very imaginative spin of ancient mesoamerican culture.

7) Rappan Athuk (Necromancer Games) - A mega-dungeon sprinked with Tomb of Horrors style fiendishness. A challenging adventure in the classic problem-solving adventuring style.

8) City of Brass (Necromancer Games) - One of the last third party adventures of the waning days of 3e, also one of the best. Words cannot describe how much I lurve this adventure. The downside is it's a high level adventure you can't launch right into. However, it blends in challenging dungeons and encounters with an epic plot and the exotic backdrop of the fabled city of the Efreet.

9) Empire of the Ghouls (Open Design) A great little follow up to Wolfgang Baur's Kingdom of Ghouls originally published in Dungeon magazine (note, I am deliberately skirting talking about dungeon magazine, as that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)

10) The Ghost Machine (Fiery Dragon) A sinister little concept adventure that permanently influenced the way my players approached undead.

HM's/Stuff that would make the top 10 on a different day:

Of Sound Mind (Fiery Dragon)
If Thoughts Could Kill (Malhavoc)
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Zachary The First on September 25, 2008, 08:32:51 PM
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;251390I actually was on the panel that contributed to the original article. Of course, there were lots of folks on the panel, so it's not quite all my handiwork. That said, at least is WAS a panel. As much as I respect James as an RPG writer, I don't take his declaration that oh so many adventures on the list weren't noteworthy.

Very cool.  And I think the disagreement and the like is what makes this so fun--I love hearing what other folks saw in modules I didn't think were such great shakes. I know I have a few extras on my list over at Noble Knight now. :)

Did ANYONE like Castle Greyhawk (WG7), btw?  Honestly?
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: droog on September 25, 2008, 08:54:42 PM
Quote from: Zachary The First;251370ook at Keep on the Borderlands get the love!

KotB is a solid module that presents an interesting situation with lots of replay value. It's an excellent training ground as well, and it actually was the training ground for millions. It's not surprising that it gets name-dropped so much.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Akrasia on September 26, 2008, 01:55:36 AM
My favourite Classic D&D modules:

B10 (the best D&D module ever IMO).
B2
X1
X4
X5
X8

The best AD&D modules:

UK4
UK2
UK3
UK6
L1
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Spazmodeus on September 26, 2008, 02:08:52 AM
My kind of topic.  My usual D&D campaign is made up of around 70 published adventures strung together into a monstrosity that takes about 3 years of weekly play to finish.  Here's my favorites (I tried not to spoilerize too much since many haven't read a lot of these):

10 Five Shall Be One/ Howl From The North - Fun couple of adventures brought down by a bad ending, which is easily changed to awesome.  The group tromps around the frozen wastes of the north on a quest for 5 legendary and mysterious swords.  The unexpected is a big part of my games and this one does it well as they don't know what's going on until the ending.  Some sweet adventure locales such as a huge orc city.

9 Queen of the Spiders - I jettison everything before the Vault and substitute some other underdark adventures on the way there.  The Giants series is cool, but a bit too hack & slash for my tastes.

8 The Assassin Within - Dungeon #47 - One of the only good murder mystery adventures I've read, this is set in Al-Qadim at the home of a professor.  When his servants and family start dying, the group has to figure out what the hell is going on.

7 Tome of Horrors - I always change the name and present it as just another deadly dungeon full of treasure.  Then the screaming begins.

6 Greyhawk Ruins - No, not that one. WGR1.  Enormous place begging for some development by the DM.  Lots of interesting combats and plot hooks to explore.  My groups explore this place on and off from about level 6-15 when they feel lucky and powerful enough.

5 Court of the Necromancers - Cities of Bone - Another Al-Qadim adventure with lots of interesting role-playing possibilities involving an ancient city deep in the jungle, a mysterious merchant who always wears a veil, and an odd married couple who have grown apart.

4 Vessicant - Dungeon #16 - The group travels to the Pomarj to eliminate a dragon that has been working with pirates.  The city of Scrape is an interesting place with 4 quarters for orcs, goblins, humans, and leaders.  The information gathering in Scrape tends to take up most of the playtime and can go down many different ways.  It's only a level 5 adventure so they have to be very careful.

3 A Wizard's Fate - Dungeon #37 - A 1st-3rd level adventure, the group is hired by a local sage to find out what happened to the evil wizard Elzid, whose tower exploded recently.  Great introduction to dungeon exploration and the clues to the mystery are well done, leading to a startling conclusion.  I always get a great reaction to this one.

2 Out of the Ashes - Dungeon #17 - A fun exploration of a most unusual dungeon: A huge crystal that looks like a giant diamond floating above a lake of lava.  The adventure hook and it's payoff at the end of the dungeon makes this one a devious and memorable adventure.  It ticks most groups off, but they still love it.

1 A Rose For Talakara - Dungeon #25 - There's just something elegant about this one.  It starts with the assassination of a high priest and a threat that the characters are next.  It ends with an unexpected ally and an enemy with some nasty tactics that are rarely used in published adventures.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Jackalope on September 26, 2008, 05:12:41 PM
I'm reposting with explanations for my choices.  I had a chance to read the Grognardia article, and I agree with that author that the Dragon list of best adventures was crap and clearly influenced by marketing decision.

All my choices are based on my subjective enjoyment having run them, so some classic adventures -- such as Ravenloft -- won't appear on this list, as I've never felt a desire to run them.

10. Palace of the Silver Princess (B3)
Palace of the Silver Princess comes in at #10 for one reason above all others:  The Decampus.  Quite simply one of my all time favorite creatures and my all time favorite combat set pieces.  There are many other fun elements to PSP: the blood roses, the many frozen statues of people, the force field.  But the Decampus has remained a permanent fixture of my nightmares since I fist read about him twenty years ago.

9. Sword of the Dales Trilogy
I've run this campaign twice now, for two different groups, and each time it has been a blast.  This is just a solid, light-hearted and fun adventure that came out in a period in which bleakness and darkness were all the rage.  When vampires and antiheroes were hot, the Sword of the Dales trilogy was offering a classic blend of Robin Hood, Black Arrow and King Arthur.

8. White Plume Mountain (S2)
This module -- with its carefully controlled routes, the blend of traps, puzzles, and combats, and special prizes -- defined what a proper dungeon is to me.  The first thirty dungeons I designed used White Plume Mountain as a template, and I have borrowed rooms from this thing far too many times.  I'll always pick WPM over Tomb of Horrors, simply because I think WPM is a lot wilder and wackier.

7. Idylls of the Rat King (DCC#1)
An instant classic, Idylls of the Rat King would be rated much higher if it just had a little more variety.  And didn't have a gnome necromancer (seriously, wtf?).  All in all, it's a brilliantly planned and laid out adventure that is both fun to run and play.

6. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (S3)
Dude, robots.  And lasers.  Nuff said.

5. Against The Iron Giant (WFF#2)
The entire dungeon takes place on and inside a giant robot marching towards your hometown with destruction on it's mind.  It's D&D at it's most cinematic, and it is freaking AWESOME.

4. Scourge Of The Slave Lords (A1-4)

This is a solid dungeon with many interesting elements, but it lands on this list because of Dungeons of the Slave Lords, and its rules for turning bras into slingshots.  Truly the best "Fuck you, you're a prisoner, eat it." adventure ever written.

3. Through the Night (Dungeon #26)
This Side Trek in Dungeon features an inn full of strangers who seem to be falling victim to a vampire, but it may be something much worse.  This paranoid and anxiety inducing adventure consists almost entirely of the players wandering around a single inn finding things.  Inevitably they split up to search, and then things go horribly astray as they realize someone at the inn is a doppleganger.  The only adventure I ever ran where two players actually got so immersed in character they got into a physical altercation.

2. Legacy of the Savage Kings (DCC #17)
A solid, well connected adventure that offers plenty of variety, a plot that doesn't railroad extensively, and a lightning bolt crapping dead lizardman.  It's neato!

1. Keep On The Borderlands (B2)
Needs no explanation.  It's the best adventure ever.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Haffrung on September 26, 2008, 05:15:21 PM
In Search of the Unknown - The prototype for early D&D dungeon exploration.  Detailed chambers with real backstory located in a complex that is almost a labyrinth. Some complain that you have to stock the rooms yourself, but leaving the dungeon un-stocked just showed how much of the fun of old-style D&D was about the map itself, along with tricks and traps.

White Plume Mountain - Whacky, clever, larger-than-life, and just plain fun. Has a half-dozen set-piece encounters that are better than the big final challenge in a lot of lesser dungeons.

Dark Tower - Nasty, original, full of memorable NPCs and encounters, and harking back to old-school mayhem without crossing the line into gonzo. Defeating the bad guys is a true gaming achievement.

Keep on the Borderlands - The classic lair encounter ratcheted up to a mini-campaign.

Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan - Extremely detailed, atmospheric, and challenging. A model of how to give a dungeon a theme. A testament to the days when challenging players was as important as challenging PCs.

Caverns of Thracia - Wonderfully atmospheric and varied dungeon. Gotta love the ruins of ancient civilizations. Fidelity to its theme does not detract at all from the fun. Encounters range from level 1 to level 20, and it all hangs together perfectly. A masters thesis in dungeon design.

Dwellers of the Forbidden City - Awesome concept for a dungeon locale. Feels like a genuine pulp adventure. Gotta love mogrelmen.

Night Below - Now that's a campaign. An ambitious homage to the G/D series of yore, that beats its inspiration on variety and playability.  

Tomb of Abysthor - Worth running a 3E campaign for, even if you don't like 3E. A big, evil dungeon complex with an effective backstory and great maps.

Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia - Fantastic sword and sorcery setting and mini-campaign. If this had come out back when most RPGers read Robert E. Howard, it would be considered a classic.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Zachary The First on September 26, 2008, 07:22:56 PM
Quote from: Jackalope;2517723. Through the Night (Dungeon #26)
This Side Trek in Dungeon features an inn full of strangers who seem to be falling victim to a vampire, but it may be something much worse.  This paranoid and anxiety inducing adventure consists almost entirely of the players wandering around a single inn finding things.  Inevitably they split up to search, and then things go horribly astray as they realize someone at the inn is a doppleganger.  The only adventure I ever ran where two players actually got so immersed in character they got into a physical altercation.

I have to find and run this now.  This sounds AWESOME.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Nicephorus on September 26, 2008, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;251774Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia - Fantastic sword and sorcery setting and mini-campaign. If this had come out back when most RPGers read Robert E. Howard, it would be considered a classic.

I recently picked this up used but haven't played.  I think it might have suffered slightly from the name and cover presentation.  Until someone described it, I and several others assumed it was a historical fantasy about the actual Mesopotamia.  It's actually very much in the vein of Howard and his contemporaries.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: flyerfan1991 on September 28, 2008, 12:16:23 AM
Now this is a good topic, and it dredges up one of the reasons why I spent an inordinate amount of time tracking down the CD-ROM of Dragon mag.

10) The Ghost Tower of Inverness - The first tournament module that we ever ran, and when you think you're going into a creepy ghost infested place you're thrown off the track by all of the funky stuff in the tower itself.

9) The Isle of Dread - Jurassic Park meets D&D.  'nuff said.

8) White Plume Mountain - The promise of intelligent weapons leads many adventurers astray.  And whomever came up with that frictionless trap has my utmost respect.

7) Expedition to the Barrier Peaks - When my group started going through this module, things were normal at first.  Then things got weird real fast, until we finally realized this was Roswell meets D&D.

6) Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth - The scene of my group's first TPK, and it was due to the freaking landslide of all things.

5) Tomb of Horrors - To whomever implied that Gary Gygax didn't write difficult enough modules, I can only say, "Thanks a @#@$#@ lot for inspiring Gary to pen this."

4) Against the Giants - I honestly liked G1-G3 better than D1-3, because what became known as the Underdark didn't appeal to me as much.

3) Fedifensor - This adventure found in the old Dragon magazine not only introduced the Githyanki into the D&D universe, but dangled as the carrot that wondrous munchkin enabler, the +5 Holy Avenger.  Oh, and astral travel being built into the adventure was incredibly cool, too.

2) Queen of the Demonweb Pits - There weren't many early adventures that dealt with fighting a deity (outside of the homemade variety that allowed the players to fight Orcus or Demogorgon and then grab ALL THAT TREASURE!), and this certainly fit the bill.  This is the adventure where you had the opportunity to go after Lolth on her home plane.  At the same time, however, there was a nagging feeling that you're never going to make it out of here alive and back into a real happy peaceful place, much less your home plane.

1) Keep on the Borderlands - Going back to the old module all these years later, you can see all of the little side quests and adventures that allowed characters to get their feet wet before even going to the Caves of Chaos.  You can build a really good campaign off of that module, and it was always there for the taking.  (Of course, being 11 or so at the time, that aspect of it was completely lost on us, but I can appreciate that now.)  It was a great intro to D&D, and allowed fledgling DMs to stretch their wings.

--Mike L.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Zachary The First on September 28, 2008, 12:18:48 AM
Quote from: flyerfan1991;252107Now this is a good topic, and it dredges up one of the reasons why I spent an inordinate amount of time tracking down the CD-ROM of Dragon mag.

I'm still waiting for a copy that's even marginally affordable. :(
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: Jackalope on September 28, 2008, 03:33:36 AM
Quote from: flyerfan1991;252107Keep on the Borderlands - Going back to the old module all these years later, you can see all of the little side quests and adventures that allowed characters to get their feet wet before even going to the Caves of Chaos.  You can build a really good campaign off of that module, and it was always there for the taking.  (Of course, being 11 or so at the time, that aspect of it was completely lost on us, but I can appreciate that now.)  It was a great intro to D&D, and allowed fledgling DMs to stretch their wings.

This is what frequently gets lost in the discussion of Keep on the Borderland.  I've seen many people complain about the lack of detail in the adventure -- none of the NPCs are named, for example -- but rarely does anyone acknowledge that Keep provides all the game mechanics for a full Basic D&D campaign, and only requires the DM to create fluff (which, IMHO, is the easy part).

I ran a campaign using KotBL for a group of seasoned players a few years back.  I called the keep "Grenzlander Schloss" ("Borderland Castle" in German), gave everyone German names, and spread the Caves of Chaos over several hills (instead of one big clump).

I think we got through about eight full sessions before anyone realized I was running KotBL.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: flyerfan1991 on September 28, 2008, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: Zachary The First;252109I'm still waiting for a copy that's even marginally affordable. :(

The place I bought it from was still selling it for the regular asking price of $50 (or thereabouts).  What's it going for now?

::goes to eBay::

Holy crap; that's as much as my copy of AH's Civilization.

--Mike L.
Title: Your Top D&D Published Adventures of All Time
Post by: flyerfan1991 on September 28, 2008, 11:36:33 AM
Quote from: Jackalope;252144This is what frequently gets lost in the discussion of Keep on the Borderland.  I've seen many people complain about the lack of detail in the adventure -- none of the NPCs are named, for example -- but rarely does anyone acknowledge that Keep provides all the game mechanics for a full Basic D&D campaign, and only requires the DM to create fluff (which, IMHO, is the easy part).

I ran a campaign using KotBL for a group of seasoned players a few years back.  I called the keep "Grenzlander Schloss" ("Borderland Castle" in German), gave everyone German names, and spread the Caves of Chaos over several hills (instead of one big clump).

I think we got through about eight full sessions before anyone realized I was running KotBL.

I think that's the one thing I really like about the Nentir Vale campaign found in the 4e DMG and 4e's H1 and H2 (H3 is a bit more like old S2 or S3, where the module is only nominally attached to the Vale).  There's plenty of stuff to fill out a campaign in, and enough hints as to what lies beyond the Vale (which is what, the size of England or something?) to allow a clever DM to insert this wholesale into a home-brewed world.  Another nice thing is that a DM can make the campaign stretch out rather than rapidly go bang-bang-bang through the character levels by enabling the PCs to work to improve the long term security of the Vale as a whole.  Remember the old "advance high enough and you'll get a Lordship" routine?  You can have the PCs claim an abandoned keep somewhere and develop that themselves.

--Mike L.