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What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

Necessary. You can call it an actual shop, you can call it a commission based service... whatever flavor text you put on it, there needs to be a way to change useless money or items into useful items and while purchasing works best (due to barter being rather archaic) it at least works.

This is especially true if you use any form of random treasure tables as opposed to enemies having gear that is useful to them... at which point you can get useful gear by killing enemies with similar talent sets as yourself (such as swords, spellbooks, whatever you need).

If you're just stuck lugging junk around you can't do anything worthwhile with, so very many problems are created with the game. Conversely, being able to have the exact items desired... doesn't fix class balance problems, but it does blunt them a fair bit. A melee that can fly on their own power is significantly more likely to be relevant than one that cannot, and so forth.

This also directly plays into excitement. Finding a large amount of gold and knowing that translates into something useful? Exciting. Finding a large amount of gold and knowing it might as well be rocks for all the practical use you can put it to? Boring.

Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593134Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

I see what you did there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;593137I see what you did there.

Really? What did I do there? No really, I know what I did, but I have the feeling you're getting at something else.

I run a very low magic fantasy campaign, so no, the idea of a magic shop would be absurd. I have five core players and they have about 6 permanent magic items between them (not counting potions). In fact, when I publish adventures I find I have to add in magic items to the important NPCs because that's what's expected as the norm.

If I had a high fantasy game where even your local innkeeper knew a little cantrip to keep the beer cold, then yes, I would have "magic shops", likely run by a wizard's guild with all sorts of magical safeguards and protections in place.

Pete

The concept of a "magic shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "magic shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

Hate em. Too much like a FF videogame. They stop being "magical" and are just some mundane weapons for the players to collect like XP. If I put a magical item in the game it always has a history, a personality, and consequences as well as advantages in its use. (Unless its Call of Cthulhu, then 9 times out of 10 the players should run away from it as quick as possible).

QuoteIn your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Big Friendly Giants?

I let characters buy and sell magic equipment, but these days I try not to have shops that sell stuff. PCs who are looking for something, or who want to sell something, can search around (Gather Information checks or whatever) to track down buyers or sellers. The exception being potions and scrolls, which alchemists or temples will have stocks of.

Never use them, although I've got Ptolus in the queue and they exist in that setting. I generally prefer much lower magic worlds, and a bunch of expensive, potent items in one spot like that would be nothing but a giant bullseye painted on the back of the proprietor.

Isn't this another "it depends on the campaign" sort of thing? Certainly it has a profound effect on the culture of the world if stuff like that is available all that want it for mere money. It's impossible to simulate a medieval society with what is essentially modern technology.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

In our long running Top Secret campaign, one of the motivations the characters had for starting their own independent spy agency was that we'd be the ones telling others they couldn't have the high tech, expensive equipment, instead of others telling us.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593134Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

Out of curiosity, since I don't really bother with fantasy games, why would purchasing land be a liability?  That seems kind of back-asswards.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593139Really? What did I do there? No really, I know what I did, but I have the feeling you're getting at something else.

In earlier editions the concept of a magic shop really wasn't there, but the systems for purchasing land and building strongholds were pretty robust and were kind of an assumed part of the "endgame".

So basically, just taking a sideswipe at older editions looked like. :D

No magic shops.  Hate the idea, even if someone comes up with a reasonable rationale for one.

Magic items can be bought, sold and traded, but it's a shadowy, grey or black market type situation like antiquities or gun-running.

Quote from: CRKrueger;593156In earlier editions the concept of a magic shop really wasn't there, but the systems for purchasing land and building strongholds were pretty robust and were kind of an assumed part of the "endgame".

So basically, just taking a sideswipe at older editions looked like. :D

Actually, no.

I've talked about this in a PM with a user here, but it's worth mentioning out in the open. Attacker advantage is a real thing. Basically, whoever is attacking has the advantage because unlike the real world, things like "defensible positions" either don't mean anything against any threats that matter, or their effect is more than overshadowed by the sheer advantage that comes from being the aggressor. Namely, buffs.

The defender can only have passive buffs - anything they can maintain all day, or effectively all day.

Anyone aware that an attack will take place can have active buffs - stuff you cannot sustain constantly, and therefore you must know you need it to have it. The attacking side is of course aware of their intentions to attack. The defenders are not necessarily aware of this, and cannot maintain eternal vigilance (unless they're undead or something).

So, because the attacker can get ready, and attack at a time of their choosing, they have a massive advantage over the defending side, who is forced to either fight at a massive disadvantage, or spend time evening the odds while getting killed... which is also a massive disadvantage.

Ordinarily, attacker advantage typically goes to the party. Enemies that aren't aware of the party's existence have no reason to get proactive regarding them, and while reoccurring foes, or any foes of a famous party can and should take them into account, if not actively hunt down the party for the most part, the party goes to the adventure.

When you have a stronghold, or land, or whatever, it comes to you. And that means you get fucked over by being on the wrong side of the equation.

Buffs exist in all editions (older editions contain fewer, but more meaningful buffs) and strongholds/land being useless/liabilities was also true in all editions... but I was primarily focusing on modern D&D, namely 3.5.

It wasn't an attack on older editions, but it was an attack on the notion that money serves a purpose beyond magical item purchase past very low levels (when all you can afford is nonmagical utility gear, like weapons and armor, so magic items are outside your price range).

Edit: Several people have said things to the effect of "No, because he'd be easily robbed."

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8PycgAZB3cA/SYS7feX4EPI/AAAAAAAAAQk/T-1JEaHlHN4/s400/gun_pf.jpg)

You wanna mess with that guy? Now consider his guns turn you into toads. You still want some of that? Any sane person would find an easier mark.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593163Actually, no.

I've talked about this in a PM with a user here, but it's worth mentioning out in the open. Attacker advantage is a real thing. Basically, whoever is attacking has the advantage because unlike the real world, things like "defensible positions" either don't mean anything against any threats that matter, or their effect is more than overshadowed by the sheer advantage that comes from being the aggressor. Namely, buffs.

The defender can only have passive buffs - anything they can maintain all day, or effectively all day.

Anyone aware that an attack will take place can have active buffs - stuff you cannot sustain constantly, and therefore you must know you need it to have it. The attacking side is of course aware of their intentions to attack. The defenders are not necessarily aware of this, and cannot maintain eternal vigilance (unless they're undead or something).

So, because the attacker can get ready, and attack at a time of their choosing, they have a massive advantage over the defending side, who is forced to either fight at a massive disadvantage, or spend time evening the odds while getting killed... which is also a massive disadvantage.

Ordinarily, attacker advantage typically goes to the party. Enemies that aren't aware of the party's existence have no reason to get proactive regarding them, and while reoccurring foes, or any foes of a famous party can and should take them into account, if not actively hunt down the party for the most part, the party goes to the adventure.

When you have a stronghold, or land, or whatever, it comes to you. And that means you get fucked over by being on the wrong side of the equation.

Buffs exist in all editions (older editions contain fewer, but more meaningful buffs) and strongholds/land being useless/liabilities was also true in all editions... but I was primarily focusing on modern D&D, namely 3.5.

It wasn't an attack on older editions, but it was an attack on the notion that money serves a purpose beyond magical item purchase past very low levels (when all you can afford is nonmagical utility gear, like weapons and armor, so magic items are outside your price range).

Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

Step into the Sorcerer's Supply House on Regal Steet, City-State and browse our Price List

http://batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

Common Magic Items are luxury items affordable in small quantities by Adventurers

Uncommon Magic Items are sold on a auction circuit, bidders are nobles and the very wealthy.

Unique Magic Items are well unique each with their own history and methods of changing hands. Typically they are holy created by the gods or items with a fate.

Quote from: Internet Death;593168Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.

It certainly could be targeted. But much like the gun shop owner (with magic) it isn't really recommended. Also, as I said it need not be an actual shop. Any place you can exchange items or gold for items... even if they work off commissions, and therefore have little to nothing on hand to steal.

Remember, just to make magic items you have to be a spellcaster, typically a primary spellcaster. This makes you a badass by default. Not something some thieves, or especially Rogues should really mess with if they want to live.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593163Edit: Several people have said things to the effect of "No, because he'd be easily robbed."

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8PycgAZB3cA/SYS7feX4EPI/AAAAAAAAAQk/T-1JEaHlHN4/s400/gun_pf.jpg)

You wanna mess with that guy? Now consider his guns turn you into toads. You still want some of that? Any sane person would find an easier mark.

I feel compelled to point out that in a mugging, the victim is the defender, ergo, by your logic, he'd be at the disadvantage.

Quote from: taustin;593175I feel compelled to point out that in a mugging, the victim is the defender, ergo, by your logic, he'd be at the disadvantage.

If talking about an actual gunshop owner: In the real world the defender has the advantage because buffs, or magic does not exist and therefore it comes down to stuff like knowing your environment and weapons, both of which a gunshop owner in his shop has plenty of.

If talking about a "Mage Mart" owner: You are still attempting to rob someone with all manner of weapons at their disposal. Assuming you can even get to them, and they aren't being stored on another plane somewhere, or in a Bag of Holding that is then turned inside out and so appears to be a normal empty sack...

You're still attacking a primary spellcaster in their personal demense. And that's the sort of thing that tends to nullify attacker advantage, as even if you can get in there quickly, you likely cannot get where you need to quickly, and so you soon have to answer to an angry Cleric/Druid/Wizard/whatever that demands to know why you interrupted his sexy times with angels/demons/devils/fey/magical beasts/whatever he feels like tapping that night.

Quote from: Internet Death;593145The concept of a "magic shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "magic shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

So you're telling me there are these shops that sell food? And you need this stuff constantly in order to live? How is this not attacked constantly from all sides?


I tend to be fine with magical trinkets being bought and sold in marketplaces and caravans. Big stuff is more gun-runnery as others mentioned.

Quote from: Internet Death;593168Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.

It no different than any other high value luxury items. The basic restraint is social control. The fact if an individual is that skilled then he or she also has something to lose. If it is a foreigner then it would be likely considered an act of war with all that comes with that. Imagine what would happen if a group from Milan knocked over a porcelain and silk warehouse in Venice owned by one of the Doge's buddies.

In short it not hard to contrive a plausible situation where places you can buy magic item exist just as it is not hard to contrive a plausible situation where they don't exist. Neither possibility is a given with most Fantasy RPGs.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593176If talking about an actual gunshop owner: In the real world the defender has the advantage because buffs, or magic does not exist and therefore it comes down to stuff like knowing your environment and weapons, both of which a gunshop owner in his shop has plenty of.

Oh, but buffs do exist in the real world. They're just technological in nature, instead of magical. I wouldn't bet on the gun shop owner against a SWAT team armed with automatic weapons, body armor, tear gas and night vision gear. All things that the attacker knows when to kit up with, but doesn't walk around with all the time.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593176If talking about a "Mage Mart" owner: You are still attempting to rob someone with all manner of weapons at their disposal. Assuming you can even get to them, and they aren't being stored on another plane somewhere, or in a Bag of Holding that is then turned inside out and so appears to be a normal empty sack...

You're still attacking a primary spellcaster in their personal demense. And that's the sort of thing that tends to nullify attacker advantage, as even if you can get in there quickly, you likely cannot get where you need to quickly, and so you soon have to answer to an angry Cleric/Druid/Wizard/whatever that demands to know why you interrupted his sexy times with angels/demons/devils/fey/magical beasts/whatever he feels like tapping that night.

How does any of that not equally apply to any other defender? There are advantages in any situation for both attacker and defender, and the only advantage to usually matters is knowing more about the enemy than he knows about you.

Don't mind magic "curio" shops. Like any other item, if there are people willing to buy and people willing to sell, trade will happen.

What I don't like is magic wal-marts. In most settings that I care to run, magic is not mass produced and players cannot expect to get whatever item they want off the shelf.

In my game, buying magic is more like buying artwork before they time of printing. People might sell items, but they would be unique. If you wanted a specific item, you would have to have it made.

I run a high magic campaign, and I used to have a problem with players and magic shops. For one thing, when they got high enough level, they would teleport to all the ones they knew and just keep asking me if they had an item they were looking for.

Player: "Do you have a hammer of thunder bolts?"
GM: "Nope"
Player: "Dwarven thrower?"
GM: "Nope"
Player: "Hammer of throwing?"
GM: "Nope"
Player: "I just keep teleporting from place to place until I find a place that has one."
GM: "damn this sucks."

Not only did it not make sense that someone would actually SELL one of these powerful magical items, but it was sucking up a lot of time.

SO! I severely limited the number of magic shops in the game, making them sell mostly spell scrolls, potions and components.

Second, for the six KNOWN magic shops in Faerun, I would roll up the inventory of the shop. If the player would go to the shop, I would have a premade list of what was at the shop. If a powerful item was there, the player was told that there would be an action on a certain day if they wanted to participate.

I wrote an article for Hackjournal (a dragon magazine type publication for the Hackmaster Game published by Kenzer and Company). It has different types of magic shops.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_-Yz6gRJebBU61lkZ5lET-beKMp2RelTmcA5YDuGsHY/edit

Since Ive implemented these rules, I really haven't had a problem.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593191What I don't like is magic wal-marts. In most settings that I care to run, magic is not mass produced and players cannot expect to get whatever item they want off the shelf.

I literally DO have a wal-mart in my game called MAGE-MART. :) The magic items are cheaper and get negatives to saves and very low charges.

LIke I said, I have a high-magic campaign. :)

(http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg607/cyberspaceghost/magemartlogo_zps5dc3a085.jpg)

Scrolls and potions? Someone might be willing to make one, for the right kind of money. It's going to take at least a week. In a large city, there might be a "shop" with some already made. There might be a couple other things that might qualify, like elven cloaks or boots.

Anything else? There's not enough magic items in existence to justify even a magic item *broker*, let alone an actual shop. There were maybe 20 to 30 magic swords made, total. EVER. In the entire history of the world. Other stuff is even rarer. Just about every magical item in the known world is being discovered by adventurers RIGHT NOW.

It's like saying, in the 1700s, "I've just dug up an ancient transistor radio. Is there a radio or electronics store I could sell it to?"

I remember someone coming up with a "magic shop" that I actually like. It's a gate-hopping wagon driven by what is basically a 19th century huckster. He has potions and scrolls, and sometimes another type of magic item. He may accept coin, but prefers magic or being owed a favor for any item he sells.

Quote from: danbuter;593226I remember someone coming up with a "magic shop" that I actually like. It's a gate-hopping wagon driven by what is basically a 19th century huckster. He has potions and scrolls, and sometimes another type of magic item. He may accept coin, but prefers magic or being owed a favor for any item he sells.

This kind of thing is fine by me, but I don't like the "magic wal-mart" approach in settings, or rule-systems that presume such things are available. I ran a D&D 3e Ptolus campaign, and the presence of magic shops in that just made magic items feel completely pointless to me (and also exposed 3e's well-known issues with Wands).

In general I'm not interested in any setting which features things like "adventurer's guilds".

Huge thumbs down on magic shops.  Thumbs up for shops that would sell rare ingredience and other such oddities like material components and such.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593191Don't mind magic "curio" shops. Like any other item, if there are people willing to buy and people willing to sell, trade will happen.

What I don't like is magic wal-marts. In most settings that I care to run, magic is not mass produced and players cannot expect to get whatever item they want off the shelf.

In my game, buying magic is more like buying artwork before they time of printing. People might sell items, but they would be unique. If you wanted a specific item, you would have to have it made.

And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--
-- did you say special merchandise? Here is a pouchful of black lotus: harvested by blind slaves in the deepest jungles. That brass box was recovered from one of the ruined cities on the Plain of Glass, and five men have died to bring it here safely. What does it contain? A mystery; the seals are still unbroken. This here is a magical scimitar: it cuts through sinew and bone like butter. I would not brave the wilderness without it. And I also have a box with these three flasks - one of the drinks restores health and vigour; the second provides a tremendous boost of strength; and the third is an antidote to any poison or disease. Mind that statue, Sir: it kills without notice if bothered. Nasty thing, but useful against thieves. Very good. Which of the above interests you? Or do you wish to sell something? The usurers at the temple will pay within three days if we strike a bargain.

Nothing takes the 'magic' out of a campaign quicker than a magic shop. I dislike them as a DM and hate them as a player. It turns magic items into... equipment.

Edit: by magic shop I don't mean Melan's cool example I mean the magic Walmart.

I've expanded on the wandering magic item salesman and posted it on my blog for those interested:  http://sordnbord.blogspot.com/2012/10/wegmars-wondrous-wagon-of-wonders.html

Quote from: taustin;593190Oh, but buffs do exist in the real world. They're just technological in nature, instead of magical. I wouldn't bet on the gun shop owner against a SWAT team armed with automatic weapons, body armor, tear gas and night vision gear. All things that the attacker knows when to kit up with, but doesn't walk around with all the time.

I'm already assuming that a robber, who by definition is an armed thief is armed. As opposed to a burglar, who by definition is not armed.

There's also the small matter of why would you rob a gunshop owner if you already have bigger and better guns. Bigger fish, and all.

QuoteHow does any of that not equally apply to any other defender? There are advantages in any situation for both attacker and defender, and the only advantage to usually matters is knowing more about the enemy than he knows about you.

Because spells. Seriously. That's what it comes down to. Any petty, trivial advantage you can get from having the high ground or whatever, if it matters at all is more than overshadowed by the advantage given by a few, or even one short term buff.

Also, want to know about an enemy in advance? Spells is the only reliable way of doing it.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593147Big Friendly Giants?

Big fucking gun...

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

I don't like magic shops...I don't even like common "healing potions" or "light rocks".  As a rule, it tends to make magic feel less...magical.

Quote from: Melan;593278And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--
-- did you say special merchandise? Here is a pouchful of black lotus: harvested by blind slaves in the deepest jungles. That brass box was recovered from one of the ruined cities on the Plain of Glass, and five men have died to bring it here safely. What does it contain? A mystery; the seals are still unbroken. This here is a magical scimitar: it cuts through sinew and bone like butter. I would not brave the wilderness without it. And I also have a box with these three flasks - one of the drinks restores health and vigour; the second provides a tremendous boost of strength; and the third is an antidote to any poison or disease. Mind that statue, Sir: it kills without notice if bothered. Nasty thing, but useful against thieves. Very good. Which of the above interests you? Or do you wish to sell something? The usurers at the temple will pay within three days if we strike a bargain.

Yeah...ONE of these in a setting is really, really cool.

Quote from: Internet Death;593168Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.

Quote from: estar;593184It no different than any other high value luxury items. The basic restraint is social control. The fact if an individual is that skilled then he or she also has something to lose.

On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593349On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

I hinted at this already, but it's the bigger fish thing at work again. You need at least 5 levels to make a +1 weapon. So to get a basic +1 weapon, you're going after at least a level 5 Cleric, Druid, Wizard... whatever. If your goal is to kill things and take their stuff, targeting the end user of that sword would likely be a lot easier.

Sure you can eventually hit the point where you can take any given proprietor, no problem... but it isn't worth the risk for anyone that'd actually care about what they could steal from him.

And this is comparing best case to worst case: It's just one guy selling stuff, vs the harshest possible alternatives. If it's say... the Wizard's Guild, or a church of any deity, or a Druidic circle... you're not just messing with one guy. If you consider that people like having a source of tools of the trade, and would resent anyone attacking them... well, you're not just messing with one guy.

It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare. Maybe eevery magic item is inhabited by its own daemon, so it has its own personality, foibles, etc. So actually getting a hold of a sword or a plow that does what its supposed to all the time and doesnt talk back or throw tantrums is a relief.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593292Big fucking gun...

Ah. Assuming a modern setting, it would be really rare I'd allow players access to these. If the character had a military background, they still would need to go through a lot of legal loops to use any of the heavy artillery weapons, and law enforcement would be all over their backs, fast.

In a sci-fi setting I'm a bit more relaxed if its a grimdark over-the-top future like SLA Industries or Warhammer 40K, but if its space opera like star Wars or Buck Rogers, then they tend to be out-of-genre.

Quote from: talysman;593225Anything else? There's not enough magic items in existence to justify even a magic item *broker*, let alone an actual shop. There were maybe 20 to 30 magic swords made, total. EVER. In the entire history of the world. Other stuff is even rarer. Just about every magical item in the known world is being discovered by adventurers RIGHT NOW.

That may be true of your campaign's setting. In others Magic Items are another form of luxury item.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593349On the other side of the equation, the idea that a magic shop owner would be implicitly bad-ass has 2 problems, from my viewpoint:

1) It's enormously edition-dependent. In 0-2e, you had to be pretty high level and (further depending on edition) potentially give up a con point to make a lowly +1 sword. In 3e (and I trust 4e, though I don't play it enough to know), +1 swords can be made at pretty low levels.

Though I dislike the ubiquity of magic items this brings to the game, it does have the advantage that it puts making magic items on par with the levels where they are useful.  Even the 1e where magic items were hard to make, by the time you could make a +1 sword, it was considered pretty mundane.

2) Adventuring is an inherently risky process that the typical person wouldn't subject themselves to. A spellcasting NPC might be dangerous to tangle with (or they might not; all their spells and special abilities might be selected to be craftmen or salemen), but that doesn't mean they are half as risk tolerant as adventurers.

Bad-ass mechanically is not the same as bad-ass socially. The magic shop owner could be just a 3rd level magic-user capable of little more than properly detecting and identifying magic items. But socially... well lets just say he on a first name basis with the Overlord.

Or not... my point is that what ever you like as far as magic item rarity and its role in commerce can be plausible by putting some thought into the campaign background.

The reason it works for my Majestic Wilderlands is because over 30 years I created a plausible social context for a magic item economy to exist.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;593191Don't mind magic "curio" shops. Like any other item, if there are people willing to buy and people willing to sell, trade will happen.

What I don't like is magic wal-marts. In most settings that I care to run, magic is not mass produced and players cannot expect to get whatever item they want off the shelf.

In my game, buying magic is more like buying artwork before they time of printing. People might sell items, but they would be unique. If you wanted a specific item, you would have to have it made.

This is pretty much how I do things.  Except that items over a certain gp limit (15,000 gp in my case) are too valuable to be bought for things as vulgar as coin.  You find that kind of stuff by trading magic items of equivalent value, or adventuring.

Quote from: estar;593397That may be true of your campaign's setting. In others Magic Items are another form of luxury item.

You do realize that's what the OP asks for, right? Our opinions on magic shops, and what we would do in our campaign?

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

Magic is semi-common, but powerful magic is very rare.

Scrolls and potions are available, as are mundane items (Saucpan of better sauce, evercoal (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/33009368/Evercoal%20Against%20the%20Cold), etc.)

And that stuff can be bought and sold, Though the selling price is normally 1/4 the buying price.    Hello, mercantilism.  And these are guilds or churches selling it, not really stores.


However, Real charged item, no, no real stores, almost impossible to buy and actually often hard to sell.  In GS, magic items are almost all charged with spells 1-3 times per day, so the magic item is a spell infused item. And this means my older groups are still really thrilled with what would be considered a decent +2/+3 weapon in D&D with a 3 yr old character.  The curve really flattens.

And I place items based on logic andf not placed on player needs or wants.

I disagree with some of the opinions in this thread about magic shops. If nothing else, it gives me a wonderful excuse to grab The Bazaar of the Bizarre from Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser. A magic shop doesn't have to be a list of items for a set gold value. It could be a tricky devil who amassed all sorts of wonders, and willing to part for them for a steep price of gold and/or blood. :D And I see that similar things have been mentioned earlier as well.

That's not even getting into settings like Eberron, which really moved away from Medieval Europe and more Post World War I Europe. In this case, the magic itself is fairly mundane and monetized, where everyone has access to magical conveniences and magical flaming longswords are turned down an assembly line. I realize that this may not be to the liking of some, but I personally feel that it's a really interesting take on how magic can work in things like D&D. And, at least in comparison to games like Warhammer Fantasy or Call of Cthulu, magic in D&D was always much more safe and tame. I'd definitely look askance at a magic shop in Warhammer Fantasy, but then again, most likely you'd be looking askance at pretty much any magic item.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593360It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare. Maybe eevery magic item is inhabited by its own daemon, so it has its own personality, foibles, etc. So actually getting a hold of a sword or a plow that does what its supposed to all the time and doesnt talk back or throw tantrums is a relief.

Have you read the Discworld books? It's a running joke that one of the characters has a Perfectly Ordinary Sword, making it strange and exotic to everyone else.

Quote from: Melan;593278And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--
-- did you say special merchandise? Here is a pouchful of black lotus: harvested by blind slaves in the deepest jungles. That brass box was recovered from one of the ruined cities on the Plain of Glass, and five men have died to bring it here safely. What does it contain? A mystery; the seals are still unbroken. This here is a magical scimitar: it cuts through sinew and bone like butter. I would not brave the wilderness without it. And I also have a box with these three flasks - one of the drinks restores health and vigour; the second provides a tremendous boost of strength; and the third is an antidote to any poison or disease. Mind that statue, Sir: it kills without notice if bothered. Nasty thing, but useful against thieves. Very good. Which of the above interests you? Or do you wish to sell something? The usurers at the temple will pay within three days if we strike a bargain.

Perfect!

I view 'mundane' magic items like expensive camping gear from REI or something.  Expensive propane stove that fits in a pack, fancy GPS, camp tools from a German cutler that no one ever heard of...  But getting an H&K MP5?  Full SWAT armour? Mortars?  Not in this part of town.

It is my personal preference to never use them. I permit people to build their own devices, be they technology, mystic or psychic in nature, but there is no magical Wal-Mart in my stories, save for very powerful areas, such as the Empire of Sorcery, where it is possible to commission items for the right price (and that is never money).

What few items are available are very common and weak, such as basic elixirs of health, minor restorative items, and similar goods. Part of the wonder of the more powerful items is their rarity, and the story (and possibly curse) that follows them.

If you deprive your players of those aspects, then all mystical items slowly become cheap gimmicks; besides, finding such items, or questing after the materials with which to construct them is part of the adventure.

So, What do you guys who don't have magic shops do with items that are unwanted? Like, a +2 trident or gnomish platemail that you find and you have no gnomes? The stuff I have in my magic shops are never the prime items. If I roll a staff of the magi, a ring of regeneration or a vorpal sword, I'd never actually place it in there. Who the heck would actually sell that?

Quote from: Doctor Doom;593593So, What do you guys who don't have magic shops do with items that are unwanted? Like, a +2 trident or gnomish platemail that you find and you have no gnomes? The stuff I have in my magic shops are never the prime items. If I roll a staff of the magi, a ring of regeneration or a vorpal sword, I'd never actually place it in there. Who the heck would actually sell that?

If you're stingy enough, and I am, unwanted magic items aren't a thing.

Quote from: Doctor Doom;593593So, What do you guys who don't have magic shops do with items that are unwanted? Like, a +2 trident or gnomish platemail that you find and you have no gnomes? The stuff I have in my magic shops are never the prime items. If I roll a staff of the magi, a ring of regeneration or a vorpal sword, I'd never actually place it in there. Who the heck would actually sell that?

You hand it to your henchman. If you don't have a henchman, you hand it to the duke and explain how much you want to be his good friend, because sometimes you find marvelous things that really ought to go to a good friend's home. Hopefully he eventually gives you land and an estate somewhere, because there aren't a whole lot of banks in faux-feudal-Eurolandia, and coins are heavy. You either keep your stash in a well-guarded domicile or you simply cannot carry half the hoards you find. Gems and jewelry? Great. Just try to get them converted to and from cash without losing 50% of the value each time, since quick-selling enormously valuable objects always takes a loss even in the best cases.

For Spears of the Dawn (//www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637945166/spears-of-the-dawn-rpg), there are no magic shops. A particular crafter, whether a nganga, marabout, or superlatively skilled normal crafter, can only ever fashion five permanent magic items in their lifetime, and most of them never get good enough to even try. Moreover, every permanent magic item is that way by virtue of a spirit imbuing it, and those spirits expect to be treated respectfully. Buying one for a sack of gold is a great way to suddenly get a cursed weapon. They expect to be given as rewards to mighty heroes, gifted to loyal friends, offered as tribute to lords, used as tokens marking important alliances, or otherwise used as markers of significance

If you want to have one made to order, you need to find a nganga powerful enough to do it, willing to expend his limited spiritual energy, and provided with a heroic-enough reason for needing the object that the newly-fashioned item isn't going to become cursed the minute the nganga hands it over.

Limited-use magic items such as potions, spirit tokens, or fetish sticks can be made somewhat more freely, and every nganga worth his salt knows how to make a fairly large collection of subtly-effective amulets and extracts, but again, the people who can make anything but basic adventuring staples tend to avoid towns, dislike interruptions, and demand enormous amounts of cash to do anything at all.

A magic shop might make some sense in certain settings, but I tend to not use them. In a low magic setting I just let the roleplay determine what makes sense. An npc mage might be willing to barter or sell an item, or a shopkeeper might have a magic item he aqquired.

But I am not ovely fond of actual magic shops.

Quote from: Melan;593278And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--

I take it a step further. Magic shops, such as they are, are the kinds of places that you never noticed were there, and when you go back for a refund the entire premises is no longer at that address. They usually have a sinister subtext, and a lot of what you can pick up there has a double edge. The kinds of places that can't be found unless they want to be found. And the kinds of places you won't be able to loot without stepping outside to find you're actually in a hell dimension.

Alternatively I have secret magical auctions like on Angel or Supernatural, invitation only, it's possible that the PCs might never be invited, but rather buy and sell through trusted agents or fences. Security likewise would be very tight. Magical items are rare and valued, and so might "normally" only otherwise be found in a royal vault or similarly well protected area.

Quote from: Gib;593602If you're stingy enough, and I am, unwanted magic items aren't a thing.

Aye.

Quote from: Melan;593278And this is how I also handle it. A ''magic shop'' is a curio store: a place with a stuffed crocodile, a dusty crystal ball, herbs and spices, an ugly-looking idol, dusty books, old carpets with embroidered stars, and--
-- did you say special merchandise? Here is a pouchful of black lotus: harvested by blind slaves in the deepest jungles. That brass box was recovered from one of the ruined cities on the Plain of Glass, and five men have died to bring it here safely. What does it contain? A mystery; the seals are still unbroken. This here is a magical scimitar: it cuts through sinew and bone like butter. I would not brave the wilderness without it. And I also have a box with these three flasks - one of the drinks restores health and vigour; the second provides a tremendous boost of strength; and the third is an antidote to any poison or disease. Mind that statue, Sir: it kills without notice if bothered. Nasty thing, but useful against thieves. Very good. Which of the above interests you? Or do you wish to sell something? The usurers at the temple will pay within three days if we strike a bargain.

You have expressed the Platonic ideal of how magic shops should be handled. I can only quote you and say "I agree."

Quote from: Paper Monkey;593538Have you read the Discworld books? It's a running joke that one of the characters has a Perfectly Ordinary Sword, making it strange and exotic to everyone else.

I've read some of them a while ago. I don't recall the POS, but I do recall at one point Rincewind coming across a "camera", and being rather excited that it was some form of advanced technology, but then opened it up to be rather disappointed to find that it was just a tiny imp with an easel and paintbrush inside.

I'm currently running a "semi-hard" science fiction campaign, with alien technology being the stand-in for magic. In the setting I've created, the Powers That Be have made most alien tech illegal (with good reason) with the result that Magic Shop = Black Market. Every piece of alien tech that falls into criminal hands requires a specialist to move safely and find the highest bidder without getting caught; it's extremely hazardous. And the government agencies charged with regulating the alien tech trade have almost cornered the market, working hand in glove with the aliens and a certain Terran shipping company.

My opinion? Magic should be rare, valuable, difficult to acquire, and make the one who possesses it a tempting target for thieves and tyrants. And it should be just powerful enough to make all this worth the trouble. This makes the owner of the "magic shop" a Major Player in the campaign world, and also an oddity. He's rich and powerful enough to acquire a lot of magic, but more interesting in buying and selling than using magic to advance his own agenda. (Or is he?)

Quote from: The Traveller;593650I take it a step further. Magic shops, such as they are, are the kinds of places that you never noticed were there, and when you go back for a refund the entire premises is no longer at that address. They usually have a sinister subtext, and a lot of what you can pick up there has a double edge. The kinds of places that can't be found unless they want to be found. And the kinds of places you won't be able to loot without stepping outside to find you're actually in a hell dimension.

Aka, The Little Shop That Wasn't There (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLittleShopThatWasntThereYesterday).

Aside from some alchemists and magical scribes dealing in potions and scrolls respectively and an occasional visit by a Little Shop that wasn't There, there are no 'magic shops' in my setting.

That's the one. Actually now I think of it, it could be a fun adventure for a group to try a Mission Impossible style raid on one of those, substituting arcane invocations, six dimensional maps, and eerie places for high tech CIA security.

Yes, something playing on the little store that wasn't there yesterday and the bazaar of the bizarre is what I'd go for, besides sages and alchemists, the local temple and the like.

When players in my game try to buy magic items I make a 2d6 CHA check, modified by "market modifier"

Usually they are offered bunk trash, i.e. balding/impotence "cures" and talismans and amulets with claims of puissant protective qualities that don't pan out.

On a good roll(12+), they might find something for sale at outrageous prices, atc which point I break out the Arduin/OSR/etc. and arbitrarily pick out something that's for sale. At an outrageous price. (I should look into Palladium stuff for this category).

When they complain to the merchants about the selection the merchants inform them that they are welcome to enter dungeons, recover magic items, and sell them to the merchants to correct this problem.

In practice, most of the time people will try to sell you crap, but sometimes you might find something expensive and weird.

I usually play 3.5, and in that edition, there were actual rules on magical item creation.  I just recently described a high level character that focuses on magical item creation.  He happens to be a vampire, and he doesn't really have a lot going on, but keeping a low profile is important to him.  

He wouldn't run a magic-shop, per se.  But he does have contact with a merchant with a reputation for 'being able to find what you need'.  

That type of character - one that can establish relationships with magical item makers (or hoarders) and help them find a buyer can be immensely useful.  If the party knows who he is, they tell him what they're looking for and he does some checking with his contacts.  Assuming that the item is available or can be made, he can set it up with the party (usually with half up front and the other half due on delivery).  

If magical item creation is done (ie, not all items are artifacts from a distant past when magic was stronger) there are some really good reasons for magical item exchanges (shops) to make sense.

1) Everyone has an interest in acquiring magical items for 'their side'.  I may not need a +1 longsword today, but I might need one tomorrow.  Keeping the shop open is in my best interest.

2) If I purchase magical items, I have a vested interest in keeping that shop accessible to myself.  That means that I'm inclined to defend the proprietor if he gets attacked.  If all the customers that have purchased magical items are of the same mind, that could be a lot of people you'd upset by going after the proprietor - even if he isn't a badass (see the guy who knows people).  

3) This one is a little harder to explain, but I'll try.  Let's say I'm a 20th level badass.  I have a +2 flaming longsword.  I really, really want to see someone use it to kill bad guys.  (I have a +5 holy avenger if you're wondering why I want to give this sword away).  Now, I could give it to the first Level 1 Fighter that looks like he's going to be using it to stab evil people in the face - but what if he dies and evil people get their hands on it?  That'd be bad.  A magic shop requires a major investment to ensure that people don't take the product lightly.  If I allow my Temple to 'sell' the item on my behalf, I know that someone was willing to trade 18,000 gp for that weapon, I first know that they're competent enough to have acquired that kind of money and that they're invested in getting a return out of it - the way that they might not if I just gave it away.  This is a little like why banks want you to put 20% down for a home.  On the surface, it doesn't make sense. I give you $20,000, and you give me $100,000?  That's like making $80,000 for nothing!  But that money goes to a third party and the only way to get my 'investment' back is to pay off the loan.  Putting an expensive price tag is similar to putting it at the center of a dungeon.

I don't personally like the idea of the "magic shop" at all, and wouldn't use it in all but the most unusual kind of campaign.  However, I don't buy the idea that it couldn't exist because "it'd be broken into".  By that logic, banks and jewelry stores and gun stores all wouldn't exist.

Rather, what this idea does mean is that if there were magic stores, they'd look in many ways like gun stores or banks: they'd have very high levels of security.

RPGPundit

This just seems so right to post here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html

Quote from: RPGPundit;594154I don't personally like the idea of the "magic shop" at all, and wouldn't use it in all but the most unusual kind of campaign.  However, I don't buy the idea that it couldn't exist because "it'd be broken into".  By that logic, banks and jewelry stores and gun stores all wouldn't exist.

Rather, what this idea does mean is that if there were magic stores, they'd look in many ways like gun stores or banks: they'd have very high levels of security.

RPGPundit

Hmmm, yes. Or it could be that the items were useless until they were "activated" with a magic word. Or the store could have a way of deactivating stolen items. Or sending a curse onto them....

Not all security involves obvious force or threat of simple violence, my friend. A clever (sadistic) GM could come up with a ton of fun ways to make players regret ever robbing Mr. Mage's Arcana Warehouse....

I think the problem with the magic shop is more the shop than the magic. The resemblance to any kind of modern store feels weird in a time period when people are more likely to buy and sell in open air markets, with caravans, or by interacting directly with people who make the items. And given the high cost, magic items might be more likely to be exchanged for the same reasons and under the same circumstances as land and such.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

I can understand the idea of a magic shop. I cannot imagine a shop for "powerful equipment".

If there is a shop for it that sells to customers passing by, then the items sold will be common in the place, not especially powerful. There might be a shop for flying brooms and one for crystall balls. But then you have thoroughly magical world like Harry Potter.

If you want a powerful item, like a fighter jet, you might be able to buy it. But authorities probably have the taps on it, producers will be rare, production will be expensive and it will take time.

Quote from: 1of3;594191I can understand the idea of a magic shop. I cannot imagine a shop for "powerful equipment".

If there is a shop for it that sells to customers passing by, then the items sold will be common in the place, not especially powerful. There might be a shop for flying brooms and one for crystall balls. But then you have thoroughly magical world like Harry Potter.

If you want a powerful item, like a fighter jet, you might be able to buy it. But authorities probably have the taps on it, producers will be rare, production will be expensive and it will take time.

If a campaign wanted a realistically emulated magic shop then they should look at how warhorses, plate armor, silk, jewelry, and other high value luxury good were created and sold.

Magic shops can be justified in any RPG system where it take a certain amount of time, resources, and skill to create magic items.

And for what it worth "shops" as we know it today did not exist in ancient or medieval times. Instead what you did is visit an individual who made or has access to various items and interacted with them personally. "The Magic Shop" is an individual or group of individuals who buy and sell magic items.

For common items you can walk into their establishment and barter a deal and get what you need the same day if you are looking for just limited quantities.

For uncommon items there is a chance they may have it. You can deposit a sum with them and have them reserve the item when they run across it. Or simply contract them to find the item and pay them a finder's fee plus the cost.

For rare items if you are a king or high noble you can do the above, otherwise you will have to wait for one of the periodic auction and bid for the item. The auctions are well-protected and in a secure location. Likely you have to secure some type of license to even bid for such an item or hire a qualified bidder to attend the auction for you.

The heart of the system will be control. Control to gain to gain economic power of a monopoly, control competition, for the state to isolate malevolent items, and for the state/wealthy to get the choice picks of items coming to sale.

In general the freebooters adventurers like the PCs won't get screwed over as it is not in the best interest of all concerned to mess around with people trying to sell to them. However the PCs will be at the bottom of the heap in trying to gain what they want. And if they try to buck the system then the consequences will be dire both immediate and in the future.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593360It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare. Maybe eevery magic item is inhabited by its own daemon, so it has its own personality, foibles, etc. So actually getting a hold of a sword or a plow that does what its supposed to all the time and doesnt talk back or throw tantrums is a relief.

This reminds me of a very interesting trap for magic-heavy characters. Surround them in a room, a cube, a sphere, a whatever. The walls are completely impervious to magic: So much so, that mystical weapons cannot mar them. Normal, simple, mundane tools on the other hand, can chew through them as normal.

This type of trick generally takes a great deal of time to solve, as characters will toss spells at it, smash at it with everything in their arsenal--except the pocketknife, or other goods they might still have from day-one.

When the players do resolve it, they are generally frustrated, and the intense shock and surprise at how easy it was in the end makes for a jolly good time. This is very appropriate for settings where mystical power is commonplace, and quite logical, as few would think that if their enchanted pickaxe couldn't break through, that an ordinary hammer would.

Quote from: Gib;593602If you're stingy enough, and I am, unwanted magic items aren't a thing.

Precisely: If the characters can actually state that they have too many mystical items and need to unload, then they will, if done by the book, be gaining too much money; if you are giving XP to match the value of found treasure, they are also advancing too rapidly.

How rapidly do you want them to unload their mystical items and raise an army and take over your world with it? I've shown Monty Hall DMs how easily this can be achieved, and made them sit up straight and wide-eyed when they wake-up to how my plans all fit together.

The other way to look it is this: If the item is the wrong shape, the reforge it or re-shape it to suit your needs. A +2 trident is useless? Why not reforge it into a +2 Mace? What part of the item is actually magical? If it is only a component of it, then is that component transferable to something else?

A creative player can find a way to do this. If it is something entirely useless, like a circlet of swimming on a desert planet, then why is it there at all? Perhaps it is time for an adventure hook to make use of it.

Perhaps someone out there wants it for a museum, or perhaps that trident is also a key to something, and not useless at all, at all.

The way to ensure that mystical items need not be unloaded, and thus never need 'magical stores' is to make them special in a manner other than just being rare. Give the item a story...

Even a simple +1 Longsword is special if it has a history, a purpose, and enriches the tale. The same is true of mundane items. The Fist of Saeros (an Adamantium mace, shaped as a fist with a spiked bracelet) from my own stories is non-magical, but it is possible to make it so by attaching a mystical enhancer to the threaded end; these can be made as a normal item, and then be interchanged as needed. Even as a mundane object, it is the ultimate symbol of authority in the Empire, and beyond that, because of the psychic imprint left on it over thousands of centuries, it enhances the wielder's ability to command or influence others, with no magic or psychic powers involved.

It also can be used to parry spells with no penalty, which is due to the history of the maker, not the item. The number of times it was used for that purpose made it supernaturally able to do so for anyone.

Again, this is a story detail. The last time it surfaced, a player discovered its properties accidentally, and never all of them. The item has no aura under any form of divination. This alone made the player stop and wonder about other 'mundane' items that the group uncovered in ancient places, and made some other interesting discoveries that tied into, and furthered the story.

I suppose it all comes down to a matter of whether you wish to make items special, and not just blocks of numbers on a piece of paper. Even giving an item a name leads the player, if they aren't a wet fish, to delve into its history. Perhaps that +2 trident has unusual marking on it in an unknown language--ensuring that divination spells do not instantly reveal the meaning--and that it has an unknown history.

That means that you can turn the item into a story of its own, and expand on whatever else is happening. naturally, if all you do is run a hack'n'slash game of kill the monster and steal the treasure, this won't work; I never run that sort of game, and they almost always turn out badly, or end abruptly when the characters can kill even the gods.

The end question is: What kind of game do you want to play? if you want a Monty Hall game, be ready to face the consequences, and be ready for your players overrule any story that you have in mind at any time, laughing all the way.

From my understanding, blacksmithing in the ancient and medieval worlds were not there to sell mass produced items.  I'm of a mind to treat a 'magic shop' as a place where someone can get consumable items (like potions, scrolls, etc) and to -sell- magic items.  If you want one commissioned, it's the same as getting a fine sword made.  It will take a lot of cash and many months. This has been one of the things which has made me keep D&D at arm's length for many years - the magic item economy implies mass production technologies.  While that may be fine in an MMO, for a table top RPG experience that sours the deal for me.

When I get back to running D&D style fantasy, that's probably the way I will handle it.  Magic items will be available, but it will be as rare and special as a getting a fine suit of armor or a sword made by a craftsman.

One way that I've heard of folks preserving the D&D style item economy while not having the items be overtly 'magic' is to say that the various plus items are simply very well crafted gear.  However, that doesn't survive into mid to high level play.

I like that 4E introduced inherent bonuses.  3.x and PF don't have anything similar, to my knowledge.

Quote from: Internet Death;593145The concept of a "magic shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "magic shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

Let's turn it this around

QuoteThe concept of a "jewelry shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "jewelry shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

QuoteThe concept of a "spice shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "spice shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

QuoteThe concept of a "goldsmith shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "goldsmith shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

What makes magic shops so different than any other luxury item shop?

"Magic shops" can plausibly exist in any setting where shops that deals in high value, compact, luxury items can exist. For that matter where merchants dealing in warhorses, fine weaponry and plate armor exist.

Reading the posts in the thread it seems to me that the dividing line is whether magic items are special or not. Or more specifically whether ALL magic items are special. Along with if not all Magic Items are special which are not and which ones are.

For some a +1 sword is special, for others +3 and up are special and +2 is just very valuable weaponry.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593360It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare.

Vaguely like Darksword? I always wondered if that system was any good.


As to the topic, it depends on the system and setting. For quick reference though, remember that in 3.5, a fifth level spell scroll costs less than a suit of full plate. You can buy four 1st level scrolls for the cost of one chaib shirt. If you're letting your players buy armor off the shelf but not scrolls, you're not really being honest about the relative values (YMMV with other editions, but the principle will hold true even if the break points are different). That's not universally true; FantasyCraft (for example) uses a separate resource for magic than for mundane. FC also makes magic-marts trivially easy to construct though, so it's not exactly a wild success.

I think I like the Exalted approach best (I know, I know), though you have to cobble it together out of the 2E rules and the (excellent) 1E splatbook those rules were simplified from: originally part of an item's "cost" was how central it is to your character. If you pay more xp, the expectation is that the GM doesn't screw with thieves taking it any more than he says "and while you're sleeping, a bear eats your arm". If you pay less, it's subject to getting broken, lost, etc. In 2E, the rules became "the GM makes up a price!" but it also suggested requiring characters who want to keep items to buy them as backgrounds. That makes a lot of sense: if you pay for the item, it becomes part of your story (King Arthur and Excalibur); if you don't pay, it's just a thing you have (King Arthur's armor). Unfortunately, Exalted segues nicely into another topic: item creation.

Item creation is a problem in every system. Generally, it allows you to turn downtime into mechanical advantage, and that's bad. With Dnd and friends, it also impacts magic shops. If magic items strongly affect the game (they do), and some classes, but not all, have the ability "get whatever item you want" (crafting), all the other classes need a way to get their hand on items too so they can keep playing the same game. The strain which item shops place on any game is less than the strain of one player having all the toys and another having none.

Finally, a point on what a "magic item shop" looks like. It's not a gun shop. It's definitely not a Walmart. Sure, there might be low level wands, scrolls, items sitting around in a storefront; maybe even one or two actually nice things under a glass counter. The real bones of the operation is going to look like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark though. Unless its a shoestring operation the only place you're going to find lots of items is a place which already deals in high values and has a lot of storage space. That means you're looking at import/export businesses. They already have guards, but your biggest obstacle is telling whether a given barrel is full of vorpal swords or exotic dye. Also, even if they have exactly what you want all the time, there's a good chance that it's somewhere else, i.e. not there to steal. It will likely get there fast though, because you're dealing with professional shippers.

Let it die. Let it die good and slow.

I'll read the thread later, promise.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594209This reminds me of a very interesting trap for magic-heavy characters. Surround them in a room, a cube, a sphere, a whatever. The walls are completely impervious to magic: So much so, that mystical weapons cannot mar them. Normal, simple, mundane tools on the other hand, can chew through them as normal.

A bit off topic, but I don't understand how this would make any sense logically.  Even if the magic item isn't 'magical' for these purposes, it is still an item...  A magical pickaxe (minus the magic) is no less hard or sharp than a pen-knife.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

First, I think if you're going to say "no magic shops" then you need to back that up with that rest of the game world. It means that magic needs to be really, really rare. And that means that if the PCs do decide to sell a magic item that's come into their possession, that they're going to be able to name their own price and make a small fortune on it.

Too often I see DMs get virulent about "no magic shops in my campaign!" and then every third bandit is carrying a +1 sword. Doesn't make any sense: If there are that many magic swords lying around, then somebody's going to get into the business of trading in them.

In my D&D campaigns, the situation tends to look something like this:

(1) It's pretty easy to get a bespoke item created of whatever you want, assuming you're in a place with spellcasters powerful enough to make it.

(2) Low-level potions and wands are ubiquitous. Alchemists brew 'em up; local churches sell them in exchange for tithes; mage guilds doing fundraisers; etc. Spellcasters from 1st to 5th level are pretty common in my urban areas, and it follows logically that they're going to be creating a supply of such items. Also in this category are "mage-touched" weapons and armor (basically anything with a +1 on it).

(3) Stuff more powerful or unique than that can also be found, but the availability is not guaranteed. It's a question of what people have been selling lately and what the local trader happens to be carrying at the moment.

(4) The really powerful stuff is almost never available for sale. It's like waiting for the "Mona Lisa" to come on the market. Items like that rarely come back on the market; and when they do, there's a lot of attention paid to them.

This might be of interest: The Local Magic Market (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/3339/roleplaying-games/untested-the-local-magic-market)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;594496First, I think if you're going to say "no magic shops" then you need to back that up with that rest of the game world. It means that magic needs to be really, really rare. And that means that if the PCs do decide to sell a magic item that's come into their possession, that they're going to be able to name their own price and make a small fortune on it.

Too often I see DMs get virulent about "no magic shops in my campaign!" and then every third bandit is carrying a +1 sword. Doesn't make any sense: If there are that many magic swords lying around, then somebody's going to get into the business of trading in them.

You bet. Of course getting that small fortune will be difficult. Its not easy to find a buyer that has that much ready cash. Finding someone with the money to afford your items could be an adventure in itself.

Another reason to hang onto spare items is for replacement due to the hazards of adventuring. So you have a +2 sword gathering dust in a treasure cache because you are using a +3 frost brand. What happens if it gets melted by dragon breath, turned to rust, or just lost in a nigh bottomless chasm? Shit happens and selling all your backup gear isn't the smartest option.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

No. Magic should be magical. Which means not mundane.

QuoteIn your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

Minor magic items, perhaps. Powerful items, no.

For example, in Hellfrost alchemical devices (one shot magic items) are relatively common (although certain items may be rare), but relics (permanent magic items) are extremely rare and never available on the open market, ever. Finding even one is significant.

QuoteIn your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Depends on the setting. Trying to buy a Northern Gun plasma ejector in Ishpeming is probably not hard. Trying to get a high tech sniper rifle in the modern world probably needs special contacts and a good deal of effort.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;594419A bit off topic, but I don't understand how this would make any sense logically.  Even if the magic item isn't 'magical' for these purposes, it is still an item...  A magical pickaxe (minus the magic) is no less hard or sharp than a pen-knife.

Simple: The walls are covered with a spell that deflects or repels all mystical objects and spells or powers. The barrier does not deflect matter, but the mystical field of an object is repelled by it, similar to a positive to positive magnetic charge.

I think this really should be determined by the setting. Personally I lean toward few to no magic shops (or at least not have them be like a corner store). But if the setting assumes widespread magic and they fit well, I have no issue with them being in a game. Where I think it becomes an issue in D&D is the books taking a one size fits all approach, where there is an expectation that they will be regularly available in towns of a certain size. What I would pike to see in the next DMG is a more involved discussion on the different approaches to magic shops and the logic behind them, then let the GM decide what fits his campaign best.

Quote from: estar;594277Let's turn it this around







What makes magic shops so different than any other luxury item shop?

"Magic shops" can plausibly exist in any setting where shops that deals in high value, compact, luxury items can exist. For that matter where merchants dealing in warhorses, fine weaponry and plate armor exist.

How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?

If you are going to make luxury item stores that sell objects that are intrinsically difficult to make, taking a great deal of time, skill and knowledge, then they would be sparse, or not seen at all.

The first question to ask yourself is: 'Who is crafting the items for this store" and 'What is the source of supply?'. If the owner is not making items, then someone is either making them for him, or finding them somewhere. If they are being made, the process is slow, tedious, and probably requires very rare materials.

Think about it this way: You do not pour gold coins into a machine that pops out magical hammers. The price affixed to items (the material cost) is far-higher than the materials they seem to use. A magical book is a good example. if you can buy a blank book for 1sp, then why is a magical tome 100,000gp in value? The spells used to enchant it cost nothing in and of themselves, so what is the material cost going toward?

Special materials, rare ingredients, alien matter, or whatever meet your fancy as a storyteller; that's what.

Therefore, where is a guy who sits at a workbench all day cranking out items getting their supply of these materials? Who is going out and killing Daleks to bring them Dalek-eyes by the hundreds?

Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

QuoteReading the posts in the thread it seems to me that the dividing line is whether magic items are special or not. Or more specifically whether ALL magic items are special. Along with if not all Magic Items are special which are not and which ones are.

For some a +1 sword is special, for others +3 and up are special and +2 is just very valuable weaponry.

This is true of any game. The only point of having a magic store that sells more than the most basic commodities is to allow players to be lazy in finding them, having them made, or making them on their own.

A church selling the mot simple healing elixir is not out of line, as the priests can make it, and can get materials for a simple item without great problem. Perhaps it is little more than a bit of mold from a local tree, or a kind of herb that is somewhat mystical that they grow and use to make it.

A mage selling simple scrolls, such as 'See Magic' might only need paper, some powdered quartz and the tools to make ink out of the crystals and some form of pigment and oils.

The more complex the item, the more intricate the parts needed to construct it may be, and the less likely anyone would just be making them for general sale.

Also ask yourself, 'how many people in this society can afford to contract for such an item to be made?', 'how many can afford the components used to make it?', or even 'how many can afford that item at all?'...

Nobody can run a successful business in a market where they can.t sell their wares due to not having a proper economy for it. You don't see people with stores selling (genuine) Diamond-encrusted gold lighters in the slums. That isn't just because of the risk of robbery, it is because nobody would be able to buy them, and they would soon go out of business.

If an item costs 25,000gp, which is more than most single kingdoms on Earth have ever had in history, then how can a store exist that sells the item?

That also boils down to the actual value of money. The horde of Smaug, collected by the folk of Durin over thousands of years, was valued as 'the wealth of many mortal kings'. Let's picture that as the contents of Fort Knox: About 650-million ounces troy. That is 650,000,000gp. The wealth in gold of a significant portion of then entire world, which has been accumulated over centuries from all-over the planet.

If you compare that to the population of the States, around 312-million, that divvies up to about 2-1/8gp per person. How can anyone justify even 5,000gp as pocket-change? Are GP the size of a fleck of dust?

If not, then how much of any single metal is in your setting? Having something cost as much of a planet makes sens3 if you have a Galactic Empire, but not if you have a one-world Middle-Ages setting where it was even harder to acquire.

I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?
<...snip....>.

I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

all good especially the last bit.

but the other side of the coin is how much treasure do PCs find and how common are "adventurers."
if you use D&D as written then a typical 10th level Lord Fighter has probably found 50 - 90 magic swords by that point in his career. Now that is a fuck load of magic swords where do they all end up? how many parties of that sort of level in the world? 1? 10? 100?
If your party sees lots of magic then the setting should reflect that logically

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?

I wouldn't say quite often but where they are is quite predictable. In higher population cities, or cities where trade routes converge for particular luxury items. For example Venice in the Renaissance as a trade route example, and Constantinople throughout the Middle Ages as a population example.

Since by mid level to upper levels PC are wealthy individuals, if everything goes right, they gravitate to high population locales to gain access to rare and hard to find items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If you are going to make luxury item stores that sell objects that are intrinsically difficult to make, taking a great deal of time, skill and knowledge, then they would be sparse, or not seen at all.

I never argue they wouldn't be, however when it is stated that a magic shop would never exist because of X then I will debate the point as historically there were places for the wealthy to purchase or commission high-value and rare items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835The first question to ask yourself is: 'Who is crafting the items for this store" and 'What is the source of supply?'. If the owner is not making items, then someone is either making them for him, or finding them somewhere. If they are being made, the process is slow, tedious, and probably requires very rare materials.

Yup and my price lists and frequency charts take that into account. If it takes finite resources, finite time, and a near certain chance of success to make an item then there will be a market for it. It what people do.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Therefore, where is a guy who sits at a workbench all day cranking out items getting their supply of these materials? Who is going out and killing Daleks to bring them Dalek-eyes by the hundreds?

The law of supply and demand. If only ten Dalek-eyes appear every year then the price of items made from Dalek-eyes will reflect that. Provided if there is a demand for the particular type of items made from Dalek-eyes.

If you are trying to construct a plausible scenario for why there are no magic item shops. One way is to require specific and rare components to create them. This esstentially makes each item a Mona Lisa or a Statue of David. The economy that deals with these types of items will be a privileged one that relies solely on auctions and private sales with items only being sold once per generation if even that.

Another way to make the process of making magic items unreliable or esstentially random. This also puts them into the category of a Mona Lisa or Statue of David.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

That how your campaign works and your opinion. Others, like myself, have a different opinion and our campaigns work differently in regards to magic-items. Both approaches can be made to work and be fun for the players.

The only problem comes when a referee sets up his campaign with the conditions that allows for magic shop but arbitrarily decides they don't exist. This occurs when the referee allows PCs to create magic items and the math works out that there ought to be more items available. Or that he uses a high restricted magic item creation system, yet every bandit is equipped with a +1 sword.

To that the fix is simple either change the premise of your campaign or change the rules to reflect the premise.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835This is true of any game. The only point of having a magic store that sells more than the most basic commodities is to allow players to be lazy in finding them, having them made, or making them on their own.

That is your judgment not mine. From my point of view there is little different in spending a 1,000 gp to buy a +1 sword or spending a 1,000 gp to outfit and pay a company of 20 fighters to work for you. In the hands of a ingenious player that 1,000 gp is going to translate into increased power no matter what you do as a referee. So you might as well learn to work with it and learn how to make the campaign work with the added power.

And the reason I have this point of view is that because I ran the Majestic Wilderlands for nearly 30 years now. I had campaigns where players started out impoverished and stayed that way, I had  campaigns where people started as rulers of realms, and everything in between. The challenge for me was to learn how all of these different types of campaigns fun and enjoyable for the players. And this included learning how to incorporate magic shops in a way that is fun for the players yet still kept the campaign a challenge.

So when I see these pronouncements that X is bad or X could never exist. I point out they are the result of how you spin the various dials for your setting and not a truism.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Also ask yourself, 'how many people in this society can afford to contract for such an item to be made?', 'how many can afford the components used to make it?', or even 'how many can afford that item at all?'...

Again the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply the price of the item will be high. All the things you mentioned are ways of ensuring a low supply by making the item difficult to make.  And with the high price comes the fact that only the wealthy will be able to afford them. And because magic items have a utility value and some are dangerous the powerful will seek to control access to them.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Nobody can run a successful business in a market where they can.t sell their wares due to not having a proper economy for it. You don't see people with stores selling (genuine) Diamond-encrusted gold lighters in the slums.

Again where did I say that? I pointed out specifically that in my campaigns  magic items are sold in one of several different ways depending on their pricing and rarity. Over the counter, over the counter but not available often, commissioned, and private auctions.

A slum magic item shop would likely only be selling minor potions and charms (like a +1 one time bonus to save), and maybe doing some commission work for the Thieves Guild.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835That isn't just because of the risk of robbery, it is because nobody would be able to buy them, and they would soon go out of business.

Supply and Demand, even if there is only 1 of something it will have a value. There are no true priceless items. Now the price may not be paid in coins. It may be only traded between kings, high nobles, and other people of great power and influence. For example the alliance between Dunador and Erewhon is sealed by the transfer of the legendary +3 sword Caladan from Erewhon to Dunador.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If an item costs 25,000gp, which is more than most single kingdoms on Earth have ever had in history, then how can a store exist that sells the item?

First off the gold piece in D&D is ahistorical. The medieval economy was based on the silver piece. There are various figures for medieval income for kings. For example in 1485 the King of England earned 29,000 pounds from their crown lands (personal property).  Since there are 240 silver pennies per pound that is 6,960,000 silver pieces from his lands along. Extrapolating D&D gold pieces from that at AD&D 1st's 20 sp to 1 gp we get
384,000 gp in revenue. This is not including scutage and customs duties. And this only the king's income, not the income of any of his subjects.

So I have to say that if a referee is trying to use realistic emulation for his setting that it is perfectly plausible to have some trade in unique high value items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835That also boils down to the actual value of money. The horde of Smaug, collected by the folk of Durin over thousands of years, was valued as 'the wealth of many mortal kings'. Let's picture that as the contents of Fort Knox: About 650-million ounces troy. That is 650,000,000gp. The wealth in gold of a significant portion of then entire world, which has been accumulated over centuries from all-over the planet.

Again the AD&D gold piece is ahistorical, you are correct in saying that many troy ounces of gold would not reasonably exist. But also understand that prices adjust to the available supply of money. So whatever you set the total amount of gold there will be a price that somebody will be willing to sell the most valuable item for given the right circumstances.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If you compare that to the population of the States, around 312-million, that divvies up to about 2-1/8gp per person. How can anyone justify even 5,000gp as pocket-change? Are GP the size of a fleck of dust?

Historically, silver pieces were the size of a dime, and gold pieces ranged from dime sized to quarter sized.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If not, then how much of any single metal is in your setting? Having something cost as much of a planet makes sens3 if you have a Galactic Empire, but not if you have a one-world Middle-Ages setting where it was even harder to acquire.

I use a silver based price system drawn from research done by myself and the Harn fanbase. I created my OD&D magic item price list by establishing a baseline for a +1 sword by comparing it to historical luxury items. Then I judged the value of other items in relation to the +1 sword. Then I took the prices and derived the cost of making them. Which also include the time it takes to make them.

And to make sure that the cost and time logically produces the prices for the items, I priced the items first and came up with the cost and creation time second.

Which btw is what I recommend for anybody wanting to do this. Make the price list first and then extrapolate the creation cost and time from that.

http://www.batintheattic.com/download/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

As do I. The main thing that you are missing is how economic rules apply to the creation of magic item creation. And that you can manipulate that to produce the type of economy (or lack of) you want for magic items.

@Mages Guild

You may want to take a look at Adventurer, Conqueror, King. There the designer took the time and effort to harmonize the treasure system, the magic item costs, and the trade system so that it all logically fits together.

One simple answer for the magic shop, which has been mostly pointed out so far, is just have one in a major city, located either in or right next to the wealthiest district. They have lots of potions and scrolls, and even some of the more powerful magic items. The cost for these items is anywhere from 3 to 20 times their price in the DMG.

Quote from: danbuter;594865One simple answer for the magic shop, which has been mostly pointed out so far, is just have one in a major city, located either in or right next to the wealthiest district. They have lots of potions and scrolls, and even some of the more powerful magic items. The cost for these items is anywhere from 3 to 20 times their price in the DMG.

and what do you do when the PCs start flogging their superfluous magic items for 10 times the price in the DMG?

Quote from: jibbajibba;594838if you use D&D as written then a typical 10th level Lord Fighter has probably found 50 - 90 magic swords by that point in his career.

Thats not true of all D&D. BECMI has no assumptions about magic items, for example, and the commonality of magic items in that version as written, while it gives some suggestions, is that it is up to DM discretion.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594871Thats not true of all D&D. BECMI has no assumptions about magic items, for example, and the commonality of magic items in that version as written, while it gives some suggestions, is that it is up to DM discretion.

Fair enough I was going from 1e & 2e

If you look at typical 1e/2e hordes or treasure and what you find at random compared to what you need to do to advance in levels then chances are using the RAW you will have found a fuck load of magic swords (even if 15% of them are cursed :) ).

My point is that in those versions of D&D PCs get a lot of magic items. I never really played 3e but from what I hear this is even more true with expectation and ability to procure at reasonable cost built into the rules and more so at 4e.
If you use those rules for the party then most parties do end up with a lot of excess stuff. Again if you ahve a game where 'adventurers' are common enough that when a PC dies another available replacement just happens to be wondering by on his pony, drinking in a nearby tavern, etc etc ...  then there will be a magic item economy of some type.
Now if you make magic rare and items each unique so a 10th level fighter has 3 or 4 magic items and has seen perhaps 2 dozen then that changes things but as we discussed at length recently in various threads it also changes the rest of the game.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Think about it this way: You do not pour gold coins into a machine that pops out magical hammers. The price affixed to items (the material cost) is far-higher than the materials they seem to use. A magical book is a good example. if you can buy a blank book for 1sp, then why is a magical tome 100,000gp in value? The spells used to enchant it cost nothing in and of themselves, so what is the material cost going toward?. . .  Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Consider this example.

Quote from: 1e AD&D DMG, p. 117An example of a formula for the ink required to scribe a protection from petrification spell is shown below:

1 oz. giant squid sepia
1 basilisk eye
3 cockatrice feathers
1 scruple of venom from a medusa‘s snakes
1 large peridot, powdered
1 medium topaz, powdered
2 drams holy water
6 pumpkin seeds

Harvest the pumpkin in the dark of the moon and dry the seeds over a slow fire of sandalwood and horse dung. Select three perfect ones and grind them into a coarse meal, husks and all. Boil the basilisk eye and cockatrice feathers for exactly 5 minutes in a saline solution, drain, and place in a jar. Add the medusa’s snake venom and gem powders. Allow to stand for 24 hours, stirring occasionally. Pour off liquid into bottle, add sepia and holy ,water, mixing contents with a silver rod, stirring widdershins. Makes ink sufficient for one scroll.

With this in mind, I once created a halfling character who's goal in life was to run a magical components supply business, which means he tended to scavenge all sorts of stuff on our adventures.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

Yes, it does.

That sounds like some classic Infinity Plus One sword fucking up right there.

If you can beat up a basilisk, a medusa, and a cocktrice and harvest body parts from them then why do you need protection from petrification again? Especially for one fight, when you had to go through at least three just to make the damn thing.

GP, and calculation thereof, is just an abstraction for GM, and sometimes player, convenience. It does not necessarily have bearing on the quantity of precious metal available, capacity for a powerful leader/group (i.e. a mortal king) to acquire or commission things, or fixity of exchange. That's all on the GM and setting. Force of arms commanding domain authority, such as in-kind contributions and corvée labor, were never "lynchpinned" to such things like the gold standard.

However economy of scale and exchange rate issues do become long-term issues with the prevalence of magic shops.

Quote from: Opaopajr;594896GP, and calculation thereof, is just an abstraction for GM, and sometimes player, convenience. It does not necessarily have bearing on the quantity of precious metal available, capacity for a powerful leader/group (i.e. a mortal king) to acquire or commission things, or fixity of exchange. That's all on the GM and setting. Force of arms commanding domain authority, such as in-kind contributions and corvée labor, were never "lynchpinned" to such things like the gold standard.

However economy of scale and exchange rate issues do become long-term issues with the prevalence of magic shops.

Actually, you will find that some systems, including D&D/AD&D described the size and composition of coinage; often in an unrealistic way. It doesn't need to make sense in very basic games, but it does once you have seasoned players that can rape your economic structure. One instance I know of that happened in a game in which a mate of mine was a player had the value of gold and copper swapped, when a payer decided to copper-clad palaces and his fleet of ships. The value of copper skyrocketed, and gold became worthless. Was gold rarer than it had been before? No.

Was the perception that it was? Possibly. I'm not sure what to think of this one, but the party accumulated so many magical goodies, that they sold them for massive amount of gold and then flooded the market with that gold to buy copper, depleting copper reserves from the nation. Then again, I see the main issue was allowing the player to accrue the wealth to afford an armada of several-hundred ironside, large-sized ships and several castles.

My main advice is to be cautious, reasonable (or unreasonable, or downright pigheaded if need be) and rational when giving out or selling items, and in allowing or using magical item stores.

Of the few that I implement, Techno-mystical items are the ones most commonly bought or sold, as they generally don't require questing for materials, and are made in high-tech civilizations that can mine mystic minerals and process them, and manufacture objects in quantity. these are then normally regulated, so that powerful Mystic-tech and Psy-tech is a black-market item.

Often these items use sorcery to enhance technology, not just replacing its function with spells.

Quote from: Mr. GC;594889That sounds like some classic Infinity Plus One sword fucking up right there.

If you can beat up a basilisk, a medusa, and a cocktrice and harvest body parts from them then why do you need protection from petrification again? Especially for one fight, when you had to go through at least three just to make the damn thing.

If we keep this under 1e standards, the wizard needing those items would hire people, possibly the PCs to get them for him. Not the other way around. The money he paid out would be about 1/4 to 9/10 the value of the item, per DMG pricing, based on haggling.His reasons for wanting it may even be devious, and perhaps he wishes to use the scroll to bypass an even more powerful guardian that can petrify with a glance somewhere else.

Keep in mind that even with that list, if you killed and kept the entire corpse of each creature, the only one that limits you is the Basilisk, and there is no requirement to use one that is full-grown. if you find a nest and kill the young, or take the eggs and use the unhatched critters for their eyes, you have the ingredients to make several items.

Quote from: estar;594862I wouldn't say quite often but where they are is quite predictable. In higher population cities, or cities where trade routes converge for particular luxury items. For example Venice in the Renaissance as a trade route example, and Constantinople throughout the Middle Ages as a population example.

Since by mid level to upper levels PC are wealthy individuals, if everything goes right, they gravitate to high population locales to gain access to rare and hard to find items.

I never argue they wouldn't be, however when it is stated that a magic shop would never exist because of X then I will debate the point as historically there were places for the wealthy to purchase or commission high-value and rare items.

Before we continue here, let me just state for the record that this thread requested opinions. We all have them, some more or less extreme than others. I found mine over many years of running and playing in games, and I find that when magical shoppes are commonplace, they seem to cheapen the idea, or the spirit, of finding items.

I am certainly not telling people how to run their own settings.

QuoteYup and my price lists and frequency charts take that into account. If it takes finite resources, finite time, and a near certain chance of success to make an item then there will be a market for it. It what people do.

The law of supply and demand. If only ten Dalek-eyes appear every year then the price of items made from Dalek-eyes will reflect that. Provided if there is a demand for the particular type of items made from Dalek-eyes.

If you are trying to construct a plausible scenario for why there are no magic item shops. One way is to require specific and rare components to create them. This esstentially makes each item a Mona Lisa or a Statue of David. The economy that deals with these types of items will be a privileged one that relies solely on auctions and private sales with items only being sold once per generation if even that.

I wouldn't say that it makes all items quite that level of value, but then again, in the time they were made, both The Mona Lisa and David were ordinary, commissioned works of art. it is only their history that makes them so valuable today, so perhaps I do look at many items that way. If it has an appropriate history, the excitement of finding it in the wild increases, and players don't want to part with them.

QuoteAnother way to make the process of making magic items unreliable or esstentially random. This also puts them into the category of a Mona Lisa or Statue of David.

I avoid this one. I dealt with it in a game, where every attempt of mine to make a 'rod of command' created a 'staff of wonder', and that was the last straw...

I have a mystical creation system for my RPG, but it is far more complex than those used by D&D. It suggests the use of unusual items, but it doesn't demand them, leaving this debate up to the storyteller to decide. One method requires MEA (a form of magical energy points) drained fro the creator, so there is a sacrifice, which is explained very clearly and logically in the system physics.

Other methods, such as finding mystical materials exist to avoid this issue. I actually avoid listing prices, and instead list item creation costs in the MEA to make them. I let the storyteller set his own prices and markets as he desires.

QuoteThat how your campaign works and your opinion. Others, like myself, have a different opinion and our campaigns work differently in regards to magic-items. Both approaches can be made to work and be fun for the players.

The only problem comes when a referee sets up his campaign with the conditions that allows for magic shop but arbitrarily decides they don't exist. This occurs when the referee allows PCs to create magic items and the math works out that there ought to be more items available. Or that he uses a high restricted magic item creation system, yet every bandit is equipped with a +1 sword.

As I said above, this thread is about opinions. You have found a way to present a logical market, but likewise, that works because you established a system for it. The problem I see is the willy-nilly magic shop, with all pricing based by the book, and no forethought on the ramifications of such 'resources' on the world and the story.

QuoteTo that the fix is simple either change the premise of your campaign or change the rules to reflect the premise.

That is your judgment not mine. From my point of view there is little different in spending a 1,000 gp to buy a +1 sword or spending a 1,000 gp to outfit and pay a company of 20 fighters to work for you. In the hands of a ingenious player that 1,000 gp is going to translate into increased power no matter what you do as a referee. So you might as well learn to work with it and learn how to make the campaign work with the added power.

There is one difference: You pay those men to work for you for a set duration, and then need to pay them again when the duration expires. they can also be killed, costing you to replace. Unless your sword is broken, in a fair-market economy, you can always sell it. The money you spend on those men is gone forever, and most mercenaries will also want a cut of your profits (in addition to base pay) out of any risky business.

The again, I tend to be a prick about these sorts of hirelings.

QuoteAnd the reason I have this point of view is that because I ran the Majestic Wilderlands for nearly 30 years now. I had campaigns where players started out impoverished and stayed that way, I had  campaigns where people started as rulers of realms, and everything in between. The challenge for me was to learn how all of these different types of campaigns fun and enjoyable for the players. And this included learning how to incorporate magic shops in a way that is fun for the players yet still kept the campaign a challenge.

So when I see these pronouncements that X is bad or X could never exist. I point out they are the result of how you spin the various dials for your setting and not a truism.

Nothing about this thread predicts or announces truisms. We are discussing the problems with certain situations, and the flaws inherent to each. Even my approach is not perfect for everyone. It does however, encourage exploration, risk-taking, adventuring and custom-creation, which my players over the years enjoy. Once in a while I encounter a munchkin-ish player who wants to have everything, and is dissatisfied with my story, but they'd be unhappy no-matter what I did, as they want more than every other player and I reward i/c action, not just loud-voiced o.o.c. whining.

QuoteAgain the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply the price of the item will be high. All the things you mentioned are ways of ensuring a low supply by making the item difficult to make.  And with the high price comes the fact that only the wealthy will be able to afford them. And because magic items have a utility value and some are dangerous the powerful will seek to control access to them.

Sure. As long as there is a demand, and people willing to pay the prices, and people willing to take the risks. That works for you, but it assumes that if a player wants to work for a craftsman, procuring what they need to make items, that they can be hired, and learn the trade in the context of your story. I presume that is all possible as well.

QuoteAgain where did I say that? I pointed out specifically that in my campaigns  magic items are sold in one of several different ways depending on their pricing and rarity. Over the counter, over the counter but not available often, commissioned, and private auctions.

A slum magic item shop would likely only be selling minor potions and charms (like a +1 one time bonus to save), and maybe doing some commission work for the Thieves Guild.

I would say that a slum-bought magic item is probably black-market goods, but hey-oh, that's just my opinion on the likely circumstances.

QuoteSupply and Demand, even if there is only 1 of something it will have a value. There are no true priceless items. Now the price may not be paid in coins. It may be only traded between kings, high nobles, and other people of great power and influence. For example the alliance between Dunador and Erewhon is sealed by the transfer of the legendary +3 sword Caladan from Erewhon to Dunador.

Actually, the definition of 'priceless' in trade context is an object for which no-one can set a value, because it is unique, and transaction of it happens against the nature of an economic structure, either by auction to set a temporary value (its current, highest trend), or by trade, or by theft.

Anything unique, aside from the natural atomic differences, or minor visual shifting from one made to the next, is by definition 'priceless', as no value can be established if only one can ever be sold at any one time.

Even non-unique items can be 'priceless'. Look at the 1933 Double-Eagle. Only one has ever been sold. The value affixed to it is entirely subjective, and will be different if it is ever auctioned again. Only one exists that is legal to sell. If someone wanted another, it would be sold illegally, and thus, no market value can be firmly established for it.

QuoteFirst off the gold piece in D&D is ahistorical. The medieval economy was based on the silver piece. There are various figures for medieval income for kings. For example in 1485 the King of England earned 29,000 pounds from their crown lands (personal property).  Since there are 240 silver pennies per pound that is 6,960,000 silver pieces from his lands along. Extrapolating D&D gold pieces from that at AD&D 1st's 20 sp to 1 gp we get
384,000 gp in revenue. This is not including scutage and customs duties. And this only the king's income, not the income of any of his subjects.

Agreed. Commoners did not carry gold and Lairds kept it in coffers in small quantities. Silver pence, and shillings were common, as were bronze coins, brass coins, and other silver coins of various weights.

Electrum is the oldest material used for minted coinage, and the early Celts, before Roman occupation used gold as a predominant coinage. It really depends on the region, their mineral resources, and the time-period. The Scandinavians used hack-silver, the Greeks used the Drachma, a silver coin that was about 1/2oz troy (I used to have a MS one from Athens) and the Romans commonly used the Sestertius (and other denominations) of different sizes in bronze and silver.

By the 16th century, gold coins were more common in England, and the Sovereign (also the Unite, or the Guinea for a while) was something that a wealthy person may have in his pocket. The value was too high for the lower-class, but even a commoner might he one as a savings, hidden-away somewhere. (Not all Sovereigns were worth 240-pence either..some were worth 360-pence.)

The main issue here is that people assume gold coins to be standard weights today, which makes them extremely unrealistic. I use a silver-based economy through all the time periods of the Saerosian Empire... You can see the chart here (http://www.zoriarpg.com/Saerosian_Coinage.pdf).

QuoteSo I have to say that if a referee is trying to use realistic emulation for his setting that it is perfectly plausible to have some trade in unique high value items.

Again the AD&D gold piece is ahistorical, you are correct in saying that many troy ounces of gold would not reasonably exist. But also understand that prices adjust to the available supply of money. So whatever you set the total amount of gold there will be a price that somebody will be willing to sell the most valuable item for given the right circumstances.

Historically, silver pieces were the size of a dime, and gold pieces ranged from dime sized to quarter sized.

I use a silver based price system drawn from research done by myself and the Harn fanbase. I created my OD&D magic item price list by establishing a baseline for a +1 sword by comparing it to historical luxury items. Then I judged the value of other items in relation to the +1 sword. Then I took the prices and derived the cost of making them. Which also include the time it takes to make them.

I have different currencies for each setting, and locations in those settings, and exchange-rates for them. The Saerosian Empire uses the Mark, and the Zorian Empire, the Dsari, as an example. They do not trade at a 1:1 ratio, as the value is not entirely based on the metal value. Larandran Marks, while still part of the Saerosian Empire, are in different denominations, as they use Base-8, not Base-10 mathematics.

Once more, the issue in question is the 'by-the-book syndrome'. If we use the terms and values associated in the book, the entire system is absolutely absurd.

QuoteAnd to make sure that the cost and time logically produces the prices for the items, I priced the items first and came up with the cost and creation time second.

Which btw is what I recommend for anybody wanting to do this. Make the price list first and then extrapolate the creation cost and time from that.

http://www.batintheattic.com/download/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

I would like to read your PDF, however I get a 404-Error both with spaces, and with %20 in their place. I suggest using underscores in your filenames, rather than spaces. I'll crawl your site to see if I can find the document, and look it over when I get a chance, or when you correct the link, whichever comes first.

What I do is assign value in any economy, in their local currency, to established amounts of MEA. The basic process, Dsari'evernon, is the trade value of Erevnotic matter (see my post about in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=594905#post594905) for more on that concept.

This then becomes the value of spellcasting services, and the base cost for enchanting something, calculating the required MEA, if you pay someone to do it for you, not inducing any weird materials that you need beyond mystical or E-D matter.

For example, one coin of Virilinium is worth 100,000Mk, because of the amount of mystical energy contained within it. This is the highest value expressed on the charts, but it is not the only value I have on paper. I keep weights for sch coins in grams, and he energy the contain, and the associated value of each based on this. Keep in mind that this is a trans-galactic star-empire, so having values this high does have a logical purpose, and 100,000Mk coins arr used for Imperial trade, at the government-level, and for treasury backing, not for ordinary transactions.

In fact, the Saerosian Empire requires a license (with an applicable fee and petition) to be able to carry gold. Woven-crystal-fibre 'paper money. is usually used for transactions in person, and coins are only for small business, except in specific periods before the Empire became so advanced (in terms of technology), or after the second temporal war, when a great deal of technology was displaced, along with much of the empire, in an alternate-dimension with a different time-flow.

After that, coins became a normal currency again, but gold is always highly regulated, partly for aristocratic reasons, and partly because it was needed for things other than money. (X|S)

Quote from: jibbajibba;594870and what do you do when the PCs start flogging their superfluous magic items for 10 times the price in the DMG?

You don't expect NPC's to actually give PC's the going price for an item, do you? That's just silly. Even the 1e DMG says don't do it.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919If we keep this under 1e standards, the wizard needing those items would hire people, possibly the PCs to get them for him. Not the other way around. The money he paid out would be about 1/4 to 9/10 the value of the item, per DMG pricing, based on haggling.His reasons for wanting it may even be devious, and perhaps he wishes to use the scroll to bypass an even more powerful guardian that can petrify with a glance somewhere else.

Translation: It's even more stupid, as you get even less benefit from doing so and if you have no problem with petrification... you have no problem with petrification. It isn't even like say modern D&D, where a "powerful guardian with a stone gaze" actually means something like "higher DCs or be stoned". Nope, flat saves. So anyone that can get the stuff for an anti petrification scroll did nothing but prove they don't need it.

QuoteKeep in mind that even with that list, if you killed and kept the entire corpse of each creature, the only one that limits you is the Basilisk, and there is no requirement to use one that is full-grown. if you find a nest and kill the young, or take the eggs and use the unhatched critters for their eyes, you have the ingredients to make several items.

So instead of just fighting one, you fight a protective mother. Yeah. Standard argument where just killing them is easier.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Before we continue here, let me just state for the record that this thread requested opinions. We all have them, some more or less extreme than others. I found mine over many years of running and playing in games, and I find that when magical shoppes are commonplace, they seem to cheapen the idea, or the spirit, of finding items.
I am certainly not telling people how to run their own settings.

I appreciate you being up front about that. I am not trying to tell people how to run setting either. I will however debate the point whenever somebody says that it is not plausible to have magic shops.

As for the commonplace magical shoppes, sure it can be an issue in lessening the impact of finding valuable items. But consider this, isn't the problem one of the players having the wealth to begin with rather than the fact they can buy magic items.  My experience there is no difference as far the impact on the campaign goes whether they can buy a +3 sword vs. an entire mercenary company. Either use of wealth is going to have repercussions on subsequent adventures and the fact the former is a "magic item", and the latter is a mundane use of wealth makes no difference in this regard.

Coupled with this what is commonplace is subjective. Not in terms of designing your campaign but rather in the lifestyles of the characters. At the beginning of the campaign they are poking around the boondocks, travelling in the wilderness, or staying in tavern dives. Later they migrate to a metropolis where they can spend their newly acquired wealth and deal with the movers and shakers of the setting, what was rare and awe inspiring becomes commonplace by virtue of familiarity.

The way I found to deal with this is to set it all up as naturally as I can, as if it was a real place given the premise of my setting. That way the players take same pride in shopping at a magic item shop as a young executive does at being able to buy his first Mercedes.  And like the real world there is a hierarchy of items that the wealthy can access. Which means there isn't just one place where you can stop if you desire more for your character.  If the player chooses too he could press on and try to be the Overlord or King.

Also the stuff they used to want becomes unimportant. Simply because it no longer matters in the scope of what they are dealing with later in the campaign. As their capabilities grow so do their goals.

And to bring it back to the commonplace magic shop, I feel it not the problem people make it out to be. A campaign can work with or without them. I think what important is making sure that your premise and implementation of how rare magic items are match up. I.e. no magic shops but every bandit has a +1 sword that some have mentioned.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I wouldn't say that it makes all items quite that level of value,

Sure, because Magic Items are objects that do useful things. If it doesn't do something that people perceive that is useful or isn't a work of art then it value is low regardless of how much it took to get the components.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I avoid this one. I dealt with it in a game, where every attempt of mine to make a 'rod of command' created a 'staff of wonder', and that was the last straw...

I basically agree. Part of the reason I have magic shops in my game is not being a dick when the PCs have wealth. So rather than getting bent out of shape, I learned how to incorporate it into my campaigns.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919As I said above, this thread is about opinions. You have found a way to present a logical market, but likewise, that works because you established a system for it. The problem I see is the willy-nilly magic shop, with all pricing based by the book, and no forethought on the ramifications of such 'resources' on the world and the story.

Agree, I didn't use the BECMI system or the AD&D system to make what I wound using either.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919There is one difference: You pay those men to work for you for a set duration, and then need to pay them again when the duration expires. they can also be killed, costing you to replace. Unless your sword is broken, in a fair-market economy, you can always sell it. The money you spend on those men is gone forever, and most mercenaries will also want a cut of your profits (in addition to base pay) out of any risky business.

Sure every expenditure of wealth comes with advantages AND complications. My point is that a resourceful players can wreck a campaign just as easily with mundane expenditures as with magical expenditures.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Nothing about this thread predicts or announces truisms. We are discussing the problems with certain situations, and the flaws inherent to each. Even my approach is not perfect for everyone. It does however, encourage exploration, risk-taking, adventuring and custom-creation, which my players over the years enjoy. Once in a while I encounter a munchkin-ish player who wants to have everything, and is dissatisfied with my story, but they'd be unhappy no-matter what I did, as they want more than every other player and I reward i/c action, not just loud-voiced o.o.c. whining.

Agreed, the only thing I would say I do differently is that I learned how to incorporate the munchkin (and other traditionally problem players) into the campaign while still keeping the game fun for players with other interested. So it doesn't bother me that they are munchkins because in my setting they are about as effective as real life munchkins.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I would say that a slum-bought magic item is probably black-market goods, but hey-oh, that's just my opinion on the likely circumstances.

In most Magic Item creation systems there are items that authorities will want to control. And one way the criminal element can get them is to make them themselves.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Even non-unique items can be 'priceless'. Look at the 1933 Double-Eagle. Only one has ever been sold. The value affixed to it is entirely subjective, and will be different if it is ever auctioned again. Only one exists that is legal to sell. If someone wanted another, it would be sold illegally, and thus, no market value can be firmly established for it.

To keep it gamable, I figure anything that potentially valuable will be auctioned or traded as part of politics.  Not entirely realistic but it works for most things.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I have different currencies for each setting, and locations in those settings, and exchange-rates for them. The Saerosian Empire uses the Mark, and the Zorian Empire, the Dsari, as an example. They do not trade at a 1:1 ratio, as the value is not entirely based on the metal value. Larandran Marks, while still part of the Saerosian Empire, are in different denominations, as they use Base-8, not Base-10 mathematics.

My experience with different currencies is that players get annoyed at it to the point that really doesn't add anything to my campaign. What I found effective to have one common coin (the silver penny 1/250th of a lb) and one really valuable coin (the 1oz gold crown worth 320 silver).  

I have several less commonly used coins (silver mark, copper farthings, gold pennies0 but those two are the ones that get used the most. And everything on my list is valued in silver so a player can just ignore even that system if they want.

The same reason why I no longer use components. Most players just get annoyed with it to the point where it distracts from the game. So I just have them keep track of total value of components they possess. And once in a while I will require something specific  when it make sense.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I would like to read your PDF, however I get a 404-Error both with spaces, and with %20 in their place. I suggest using underscores in your filenames, rather than spaces. I'll crawl your site to see if I can find the document, and look it over when I get a chance, or when you correct the link, whichever comes first.

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

This should work.

Quote from: estar;594957My experience with different currencies is that players get annoyed at it to the point that really doesn't add anything to my campaign. What I found effective to have one common coin (the silver penny 1/250th of a lb) and one really valuable coin (the 1oz gold crown worth 320 silver).  

I have several less commonly used coins (silver mark, copper farthings, gold pennies0 but those two are the ones that get used the most. And everything on my list is valued in silver so a player can just ignore even that system if they want.

The same reason why I no longer use components. Most players just get annoyed with it to the point where it distracts from the game. So I just have them keep track of total value of components they possess. And once in a while I will require something specific  when it make sense.



http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

This should work.

I've just had my nightcap and bedtime pipe, so I don't feel quite up to giving a full reply, but i wanted to respond to this point before it falls through my ears...

The reason I use multiple currencies and exchanges is almost the exact reason you outline, but it is a bit deeper than that. I run games that are extremely highly detailed. I vividly describe scents, sounds, textures, temperatures, colours, el. al.. When a character visits another planet, or another country, they are crossing over into an alien culture to their own. I want the player to feel and actually to experience what that is like, and to slowly adapt to it in one way or another, or get irritated. before the Euro, I had to know the exchange rates when going to Italy or Austria, and wherever. I needed to know some of the local language--yes, I use regional and planetary languages and dialects--and adjust tot he customs.

I feel it adds to the role-playing experience to 'live through that', in the meta-world.

In this setting, there are several star-empires. The setting uses technology, varying by Empire and planet, sorcery (also varying by local mEF), Psychic abilities and so on, but customs, culture and currency differ between them. Having a main base currency for any one Empire is logical, and essentially required to keep it from falling apart, but some deviations, such as the Base-8/10 shift can be expected. if the players can't figure it out, they can hire someone to handle transactions for them, at a cost, but refusing to work it out is a lazy step IMHO.

Now put yourself in a situation where you are going from wherever you are to Japan. you are going to have a culture-shock on your first visit, need to adapt to the currency, and their food, and their laws. I want people to feel that in-game, and I want the emotion to carry beyond the character to the player.

In a singlepworld setting, having currencies for different kingdoms makes perfect sense to me. That is how the world works, and people need to learn tbat they can be taken for a fool about the value of their money. Additionally, some currencies simply have no value in other areas. The Kingdom of Sodomar in the post-5th-Empire period (after the Second Temporal War ended up using hot-stamped (branded) wooden discs for coins. Why? They are a desert culture in a financial crisis, and wood, there, is a rare commodity.

The Imperial nation of Taranya uses Koji, which are ivory or jade placards etched with their value, based in weight of grain or rice. Saeroa and Larandra use silver coins, with Saeroa on base-10 and Larandra on Base-8, but Koaloba uses gold and bronze, based on mineral resources.

Each has their own language or dialect, and while people may slightly understand you there, your language skills will determine your ability to easily communicate. Keep in mid that this is the core-world of a trans-galactic empire that fell back into Renaissance-period technology after the war. Some leftover technology remains, but most is kept as curios, with the owners having no real idea on the actual use of their 'end-table' (Subwave-net InfoTerminal).

I don't mind the player annoyance: You can't please everyone all of the time; and once they get past the exchange systems, and get used to them, it ceases to bother them and can actually both be fun, and used to their advantage. If one currency is stronger you can do trade in that region and then exchange the stronger currency for your local one and use the margin to your benefit.

The Zorian Empire also preferred formed crystal discs in place of any form of 'paper money' for higher values. These are highly-secured, of course, but allowed for a valuable 'coin' that wasn't too much trouble to produce and is difficult to counterfeit. i think that the diversity of money adds to the flavour of my games.

I also run far more simple games for some events, and just use a basic 'word-economy' system for them, but these are not my staple stories, and are generally for new members to the Guild, giving them a teaser, while inviting them to other games.

Interestingly, because of the powers that allow matter transmutation and spontaneous creation, i have never has a character in Eric's games that needed money. He goes very overboard with  lot of things. One of my characters, who i call Super-Elf' was given so much power that I honestly have no idea how to play him anymore. 1000d6 laser-vision. Screw that.

I prefer running and playing in games that require a lot of thought, and reward exploration, research and curiosity. I also like making my own items, be they magical, scientific or pychic. This isn't to save money: It's to make unique,a nd new things that can be story items later for other games. I am giving them a history, that makes them some kind of relic later.

I also think that it is nice to have some kind of story or blurb for every item. TSR's 'Encyclopedia Magica' was great for this. I dot need people to chase down every creature in the universe to make things, but if it can add an adventure-hook, I will opt to offer it as a possibility.

Interestingly, no person in my regular game has a routine mystical weapon. One has an energy rifle that can leech psychic energy to add extra damage, and one has a mystically-enhanced e-rifle that deals half energy damage and half mystical energy. I believe that's all of the magical weapons they the group has, and nobody complains.

I run a fair story, and they don't run into a swarm of NPCs with +14 stazers or a vorpal-bunny-o'greatxes. That is another good point made in this thread, but it is less of a magical shop issue than a balancing / compensation problem at the fault of the GM. If you feel the group is too overpowered with too much stuff, then handing out powerful items to NPCs is just a way to worsen the core-problem. Why not provide challenges where brute force is not a viable answer?

I would rather design foes that outwit the PCs than outgun them, and I always leave leverage room for figuring our solutions, except in the case of riddles, which have a logical solution: it may require thought and cooperation, but the solution always makes sense, often to the traditional 'D'Oh' from one of more of them whey they finally puzzle through it.

I also enjoy incorporating a great deal of mystery (either present, or ancient) and intrigue (drama, political, or horror) into my tales. I definitelo don't run typical fantasy dungeon-crawls on a routine basis, although that doesn't preclude 'dungeons' in my games, although they may turn out to be an inter-dimensional spaceship in the end. (X|S)

The only magic shops i've ever used offer things that make peoples lives easier - comfort magic.

If there was a magic shop that only catered to adventurers it'd soon go out of business.

Quote from: MagesGuild;595014I've just had my nightcap and bedtime pipe, so I don't feel quite up to giving a full reply, but i wanted to respond to this point before it falls through my ears...

I started another thread for my reply.

Quote from: danbuter;594936You don't expect NPC's to actually give PC's the going price for an item, do you? That's just silly. Even the 1e DMG says don't do it.

if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595041if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

For what it worth the AD&D DMG specifically state that the price in the book is what the players can sell the item form. Nothing about how much they can buy it for. So it not out of line to say for your campaign they sell at 3 to 20 times the price in the DMG.

Quote from: estar;595049For what it worth the AD&D DMG specifically state that the price in the book is what the players can sell the item form. Nothing about how much they can buy it for. So it not out of line to say for your campaign they sell at 3 to 20 times the price in the DMG.

That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

It makes no sense for PCs to get less for the same product than an NPC becuase as far as the game world is concern they are the same. Just like it makes no sense that a PC can't set up a school training people of their class or that PCs can't train each other. All these rules are just crude ways 1e tried to control access to cash.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595081That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

Except that, as an adventurer, you're not a guy with a carpet shop. You're a guy trying to unload a tsotchke on eBay.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595041if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

Thank you for the welcome. Just so that you know, there will likely be several of us-on posting via this account, and each of us will have a signature (mine being '(X|S)', if you noticed). We're an association of writers and what-have-you, which you might find interesting, as we elaborated upon in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=595116).

Quote from: jibbajibba;595081That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

It makes no sense for PCs to get less for the same product than an NPC becuase as far as the game world is concern they are the same. Just like it makes no sense that a PC can't set up a school training people of their class or that PCs can't train each other. All these rules are just crude ways 1e tried to control access to cash.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595094Except that, as an adventurer, you're not a guy with a carpet shop. You're a guy trying to unload a tsotchke on eBay.

Let me put-aside the issue of whether such a shoppe is good or bad or suggested, and discuss the economics issue you raised...

There are two large factors in the market-value and the wholesale-value difference. One of them is typical margin, which varies wildly depending on the category of item. If you decide that mystical objects are luxury items, then you might find it interesting that many luxury items have a gigantic mark-up, between 500% and 1500% of wholesale cost.

Jewelry, at retail, has an average margin of 900%, meaning it sells for ten-times the price that the jeweler spent on it to place it in his showcase, and if you bring an item to a jeweler to sell it, you will usually be paid <10% of its retail value as a used piece.  I have a friend that runs a jewelry store, and another who runs a fobwatch shoppe, and learned a lot from both of them about the insane mark-ups, and where they make the most money.

On the wholesale end, Diamonds have by far the highest margin and mark-up of any commodity, and unwrought gold has the lowest. If you buy a diamond ring, expect that there is a 1500% mark-up on the stone, if not more, and an overall 1000% mark-up on the ring itself.

Import items in the old world were horribly expensive. They are less-so today, but the mark-up is still gigantic. To go along with your rug-store (I am assuming Persian rugs, as that makes the most sense), the guy selling pieces for from $100 to $1,000 probably has at least a 400% markup on them. If you start selling them for $75 to $750, and you have the same cost as he does, he might lower his prices to match, and compete by selection, assuming he can afford a wider variety. That is expansionary-competition, versus margin-cutting competition.

The latter, his first alternative, is to lower his prices below yours, and have a price war, hoping to drive you out of business, and then raise his prices slowly back up again if you close-up your doors.

If your cost is higher than his, he will be able to undercut even your cost, and you'll be very screwed. being in business longer, with more-and-better contacts, this is easily a possibility.

The third alternative for him is to try to buy you out. This may be for a percentage of your margin: Say, for example, he offers to buy all of your inventory, for that you have a 400% margin, at a fixed price offering you a 300% margin on the while shebang. He is cutting himself and you a deal at once, as although he can get the items for less than this, he can get rid of a competitor, and you will make a deal of money at one time. If your margin is much lower than his, say 200%, you are possibly best-off taking the offer, as he will drive you into the dirt with undercutting when you don't.

Now we'll compare the used item versus new item quandary. I prefer to buy antique jewelry and pipes and such, not new items. I actually like them far better, and they've been made with superior craftsmanship to items made today.

Would it shock you to know that when you walk into a jewelry store with vintage, 19th-Century mens' ring, you can halve them, with higher-quality stones and better gold than rings new out of the kiln? Why? because the jeweler doesn't even pay for the stone when you sell it to him. He pays for its weight. The same goes for a pawn-broker, who sells such items based on their weight, not the appeal , craftsmanship, or quality, because they're old.

The same goes for antique pipes. I picked up a CFP meershaum with 14K gold bands around the shank and the bowl in a leather, form-made, velvet-lined case about eight years back for $50. The gold itself was even then, worth that or more in melt. Just this week I snagged another WDC briar with 14K trim for about $100. If you bought any pipe with gold trim made today, you'd pay over $2,500 for it.

I buy Dunhill pieces from the 1930s though the 1950s for between $50 and $200 each. I paid $400 for a 1950s Dunhill ODB: That is a $4,000 pipe in the Dunhill store if you buy it new. I found a Dunhill-made Hardcastle Straight-grain / quasi flame-grain for around $40; try walking into the Dunhill store and buying a flame-grain or straight-grain for under $2,000.

My 1930s Dunhill Churchwarden set me back around $100. I think that the lowest-priced Dunhill today cots over $400, and their seconds lines (Parker/Hardcastle) start around $75 or so. New items simply cost more than used ones,a nd even unused pre-owned items. I bought a trio of three 1850s (yes, Eighteen-Fifties) WDCs, with amber stems, plus an assortment of extra horn and amber stems, for under $100.

If you have a single amber stem cut today, assuming you can find anyone to cut it, and drill it for you, and a bone tenon to match, it will cost more than $100. That's a custom-made item, and you need to pay for the time and craftsmanship, plus the markup on new materials, and their overhead.

Running a business costs a great deal of money. Rents, employees, contractors, legal fees, taxes, licenses--yes, they even has those in the 12th-Century, and more-so by the 16th and 17th--furnishings, cases, signage, advertising, and what-have-you to run a business.

When you are flogging a used item to a vendor, their offer to pay 1/2 of its retail cost is extremely generous, given that they will make very little on it at that price. Paying 1/8th the retail cost is more reasonable for them, and 1/10th or less the most likely.

If they have no other source for it, they will offer you more. That is, if items, like magical swords are no-longer being made anywhere local, they will give a higher price, as there is demand but no supply. if they can hire a smithy to make a blade, and a mage to enchant it, and have the contact, they will pay far less.

These are important factors to consider for pricing: If magical shoppe are not un-precidented, you might do better to sell items in a smaller city than a larger, as the shoppe owner has a smaller overhead--rents and costs increase in richer districts--and their availability of supply is smaller, or non-extant, or requires importing, which was and still is highly expensive.

As long as the item isn't too valuable for them to ever sell, or have a contact that might want it, then they will possibly be more open to giving you a higher price for it.

Then, we have black-market trade. For this, you need a fence with contacts to sell your item to the highest shadowy figure. This may net you the best deal, but get you on the wrong-side of the law.

Oh yes, and let's not forget one thing: Thieves pay attention. If you are carting around mystical goods and selling them, they will raise a brow nd set in motion people to watch you, or even infiltrate you, and try to steal from you the either the most-valuable, or least-valuable items. The most-valuable, if they want a quick hit, and the least, if they want thefts to go unnoticed, and for a prolonged time.

Even if you set up a shoppe, they may try to do this, by getting hired and waiting for a good opportunity to mill you dry, robbing your items, inventory, tills, vault, or all of the above. A businessman who has been around for a long time is seasoned, and knows how to look after himself, even so far as to paying off the Thief Guild (i.e.protection money) to avoid this, or will have contacts in law-enforcement who can check the background on his staff.

Do you have these benefits?

These are many good reasons that you will ever get full-market-value for your items, because that value is the retail cost from a veteran business owner with contacts and overhead.

I am actually working on classes for Zoria (http://www.zoriarpg.com) with these sorts of considerations (e.g. black market contacts, government contacts, etc.) as class-features, with the Miscreant being one of those.

In the long-run, I find that characters, in a setting with a real-world economy are best off finding and questing for items that they want, need or will use; in a broken-economy, you can gather items, sell them for 110% of market-value (yes, I have done this) and build their own empire.

In conclusion, the buyer will only pay you full-price if you stumble on them in public and there is no local source for what you are trying to sell, and they believe the item is exactly what you claim. Even then, if they are savvy, they will negotiate the price downward. I have had people flogging 'magical items' before that are fake, with false auras, or temporary powers, especially wands--this is covered under the section in 'Zoria' under 'Creating Wands'--for just this reason: Be careful who you trust. (X|S)

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110Thank you for the welcome. Just so that you know, there will likely be several of us-on posting via this account, and each of us will have a signature (mine being '(X|S)', if you noticed). We're an association of writers and what-have-you, which you might find interesting, as we elaborated upon in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=595116).

<...snip...>

another good post.
You and pundit should have a pipe off or whtever it might be called. It will be interesting talking to your various incarnations, a bit like inviting Sibyl round to tea.

I agree to a degree that the party that turns up with loot and wants it shifted quick will take a loss. However, I also think that there is a tendancy in RPGs and D&D in particular to play the NPC merchants as supra geniuses and the PCs as total chumps. There can certainly be reasons why I won't get the current market value from a horde especially if i am selling to a wholeseller. I also agree with the events that would happen if the PCs set up their own magic shop. However it might make for a great little adventure :)

I actually think that a PC with the right skills can easily talk up the value of an item the bard with the silver tongue can increase the value of a Frost Brand by spinning a tale about it.

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110*snipped*

That's a lot of words there that miss the point.

Adventurers trying to sell a few magic items aren't running a business - they're guys taking out an ad in the Recycler.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595155That's a lot of words there that miss the point.

Adventurers trying to sell a few magic items aren't running a business - they're guys taking out an ad in the Recycler.

Pun-tastically enough, we have the 'Magic Nickel' around here.  :)

Has anyone ever used magical currency for the buying and selling of magical items in games? I know in Wraith souls or materials formed of souls were used to form, well, everything including currency, but would a more effective method than coins be contracts or favours owed or something.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595094Except that, as an adventurer, you're not a guy with a carpet shop. You're a guy trying to unload a tsotchke on eBay.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595155That's a lot of words there that miss the point.

Adventurers trying to sell a few magic items aren't running a business - they're guys taking out an ad in the Recycler.

The thing about being a player and an adventurer is that you can pretty much do this type of thing if you like.  What's stopping you?  If you have some cash, you can open a shop.  You can hire clerks.  You can stock it with your adventuring treasures.  

You're the player, you make your choices.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595205The thing about being a player and an adventurer is that you can pretty much do this type of thing if you like.  What's stopping you?  If you have some cash, you can open a shop.  You can hire clerks.  You can stock it with your adventuring treasures.

What I have a hard time conceiving - and this is my own experience talking, of course - is having such a surfeit of magic items that one could even consider opening something like a shop in the first place.

In any game of D&D I ever played, most magic items not kept by the player characters were given to henchmen or offered as tribute or baksheesh to curry favor from non-player characters or monsters.

In different games I've played, I've seen lots of difference levels of magic items.  But I've seen lots of 'art' type treasures no matter what game I've played.  The idea of opening up a curio shop to sell a half-dozen jade chess pieces; two diamond-studded alabaster vases; a richly embroidered ottoman; a painting by an old-master depicting a red dragon razing a village; and a longsword that glows with magical energy hardly seems a stretch.

Point is - if that's what required to get a 'fair deal' on the treasure the party finds, some will do it.  Trying to ensure that players can't sell anything, but they can buy those same items at highly inflated prices isn't just unfair - it's stupid.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595213In different games I've played, I've seen lots of difference levels of magic items.  But I've seen lots of 'art' type treasures no matter what game I've played.  The idea of opening up a curio shop to sell a half-dozen jade chess pieces; two diamond-studded alabaster vases; a richly embroidered ottoman; a painting by an old-master depicting a red dragon razing a village; and a longsword that glows with magical energy hardly seems a stretch.

Better - and probably ultimately cheaper, considering commission versus overhead - to hire a broker to contact potential buyers. Again, my experience talking.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595213Trying to ensure that players can't sell anything, but they can buy those same items at highly inflated prices isn't just unfair - it's stupid.

Sure, which is one of the reasons 'ye olde magick shoppe' doesn't have a place in my campaign at all.

Quote from: The Traveller;595180Has anyone ever used magical currency for the buying and selling of magical items in games? I know in Wraith souls or materials formed of souls were used to form, well, everything including currency, but would a more effective method than coins be contracts or favours owed or something.

Yes, in Zoria one of these is called Dsari'ereva (pl. Dsari'erevnost). It is mystical matter in coin form, and its value is based on how much MEA it contains by mass. I don't regularly use it in my own game, but one of my playtest GMs built his entire empire around it, for the reason that mages and alchemists produced ways make synthetic mundane precious materials en mass, but mystical matter is almost impossible to reproduce, so it is the only remaining commodity that requires gathering with work.

In my game, you would use it to commission items of mystical nature, and the artificer would use some of it in the creation process of the desired object. It also has a monetary trade value, so it is used for high-denomination coinage, but not in any normal circumstances. (X|S)

On magic items as luxury goods and their markup...

If magic items are especially rare, they may be priced more like art. The primary determining factor of an art's value is how much it or something like it (say, something by the same artist) has sold for previously. Scarcity is not a factor here because each item is unique (and an artist's body of work actually increases the more of it there is).

___________________________

Of course, a lot of this discussion uses modern analogues, where:

1)There are shops.

2)People have enough cash on hand to purchase this stuff.

Even without scarcity and base price coming into play, 1 and 2 often aren't true in a fantasy setting. The common model for acquiring magic items in a fantasy setting (outside of adventuring) might more likely involve commissioned work or gifts of a similar nature to land grants.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595227Better - and probably ultimately cheaper, considering commission versus overhead - to hire a broker to contact potential buyers. Again, my experience talking.

I would definitely agree with the magic items as high art or grey market analogue.  Correlations with the cyberpunk 'fixer' abound.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If an item costs 25,000gp, which is more than most single kingdoms on Earth have ever had in history, then how can a store exist that sells the item?

If you follow this logic through to it conclusion, then every 3rd level PC is richer than the local king. The premise simply isn't tenable.

QuoteI prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

Which is why magic item stores need to exist in any D&D game that uses anything remotely resembling standard treasure distribution. Because otherwise the game turns into realms management right around the time they're hitting level 2.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594871Thats not true of all D&D. BECMI has no assumptions about magic items, for example...

Yes it does. It has random treasure tables. Any DM, of course, can ignore those guidelines. But to claim they don't exist is absurd.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595213In different games I've played, I've seen lots of difference levels of magic items.  But I've seen lots of 'art' type treasures no matter what game I've played.  The idea of opening up a curio shop to sell a half-dozen jade chess pieces; two diamond-studded alabaster vases; a richly embroidered ottoman; a painting by an old-master depicting a red dragon razing a village; and a longsword that glows with magical energy hardly seems a stretch.

Point is - if that's what required to get a 'fair deal' on the treasure the party finds, some will do it.  Trying to ensure that players can't sell anything, but they can buy those same items at highly inflated prices isn't just unfair - it's stupid.

Yup.
My PC is only an adventurer so long as he adventures nothing stopping him setting up a shop, a castle, a training academy, a pub or whatever. Nothing to prevent me staffing them with hirelings either.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;595332If you follow this logic through to it conclusion, then every 3rd level PC is richer than the local king. The premise simply isn't tenable.

Dear Saeros, someone has been terribly generous with you. I have never run a game (that I started) where a low-level character had access to that measure of wealth. Even those who come from important or noble families had limits, often needing to ask permission, or having a specific cap to their credit as authorized.

PCs that could amass such wealth would be doing so by stealing it from very rich, and probably extremely dangerous figures in my settings. That might be enough to buy your own (small) starship in the Empire, with your quoted value being around 2,500,000Mk, assuming you are using small gold coins. Think of this: If each of those coins was 1/2 oz troy (about the size of a quarter, as illustrated in 'the book'), that would be £26,541,250 or $42,777,500 right now, just for the metal. If coins are 1/4 oz, around what they were in the 12th-century, then halve that amount.

To each their own, but that is wealth far in excess of anything any book suggests for a character of that level. (X|S)

Quote from: jibbajibba;595338Yup.
My PC is only an adventurer so long as he adventures nothing stopping him setting up a shop, a castle, a training academy, a pub or whatever. Nothing to prevent me staffing them with hirelings either.

My exact words to any player that joins one of my games are You may do whatever you want; or rather, you may try to do it.

I, as a storyteller, would not simply state 'You cant do that.', without giving a logical reason, but I would require and expect them to role-play and act it out. I run an illegal electronics firm in a Cyberpunk game, so anything is possible, as long as 'tis in the context of the story.

On another note, I love the stat-block (specifically, I find the skill-selection quite amusing) in your signature: Very nice! (X|S)

(Crumbs, I meant to merge these two replies, and it slipped my memory banks.)

Adventurers are very wealthy, but until they reach high levels they are certainly not wealthier than kings or even dukes.

When creating ACKS I worked up the expected net worth and monthly income of different social ranks. Net worth includes value of land, tools, animals, clothing, etc. It's very useful for understanding where your PCs fit in their world.

Rank / Net Worth / Monthly Income
Peasant / 100gp / 3gp
Baron / 15,800gp / 481gp
Marquis / 70,000gp / 2,000gp
Count / 257,000gp / 7,800gp
Duke 505,500gp / 15,000gp
Prince 1,800,000gp / 54,000gp
King 4,500,000gp / 137,500gp
Emperor 13,000,000gp / 400,000gp

In ACKS, an Old Dragon's hoard will have about 45,000gp in coin plus substantial magic items. If sold, a sword +1  is worth 5,000gp while a ring of invisibility is worth 33,000gp.

An unstated point regarding the market for magic items is how difficult they are to appraise. In the real world, merchandise that can be easily appraised in value tends to be easy to buy and sell. Merchandise that cannot be easily appraised has considerably lower re-sale value when not brand new and coming from a reputable seller.

In ACKS, there is no "Identify" spell and, indeed, no reliable way to identify an item's properties at all. The best you can hope for is time-consuming and expensive magical research on the item, which requires a high-level mage and considerable expense. This makes selling items very challenging. "It's a ring of wishes!" "Sure it is, buddy." How do you prove it?

Thus we wrote "ACKS assumes that the market for magic items is illiquid and inefficient. Most magic items found by adventurers were created long ago, and are of dubious origin and uncertain ownership history, which drives their price down."

Using the Magic Item Transactions by Market Class table for a huge city, in a typical month you'd find 7 buyers for a potion or scroll, 2 buyers for a minor item, and have a 10% chance of finding someone willing to buy a 10,000gp+ item.

Pricing for Magic Item transactions:
Commission Specific Item: 3 x base cost + provide any necessary material components
Buy Existing Item: 2 x base cost to create item
Sell Item You've Made: 2 x base cost (known creator, known powers)
Sell Item You've Looted and [Claim to Have] Identified: 1 x base cost (dubious origin, unknown powers)

Quote from: StormBringer;595310I would definitely agree with the magic items as high art or grey market analogue.  Correlations with the cyberpunk 'fixer' abound.

yes, my main game is pretty guild intensive, so anyone selling or moving said stuff is involved with some organization or three.  And still, only the small stuff is available in any traditional mercantile sense, though scrolls (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955581/General%20Costing%20of%20Spells) are a bit of an exception in Celtricia.

Quote from: amacris;595389An unstated point regarding the market for magic items is how difficult they are to appraise. In the real world, merchandise that can be easily appraised in value tends to be easy to buy and sell. Merchandise that cannot be easily appraised has considerably lower re-sale value when not brand new and coming from a reputable seller.

In ACKS, there is no "Identify" spell and, indeed, no reliable way to identify an item's properties at all. The best you can hope for is time-consuming and expensive magical research on the item, which requires a high-level mage and considerable expense. This makes selling items very challenging. "It's a ring of wishes!" "Sure it is, buddy." How do you prove it?

Thus we wrote "ACKS assumes that the market for magic items is illiquid and inefficient. Most magic items found by adventurers were created long ago, and are of dubious origin and uncertain ownership history, which drives their price down."

Using the Magic Item Transactions by Market Class table for a huge city, in a typical month you'd find 7 buyers for a potion or scroll, 2 buyers for a minor item, and have a 10% chance of finding someone willing to buy a 10,000gp+ item.

Pricing for Magic Item transactions:
Commission Specific Item: 3 x base cost + provide any necessary material components
Buy Existing Item: 2 x base cost to create item
Sell Item You've Made: 2 x base cost (known creator, known powers)
Sell Item You've Looted and [Claim to Have] Identified: 1 x base cost (dubious origin, unknown powers)

How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

In the fiction it is normal for magic items in the hands of powerful or renown NPCs or characters to be well known so from The Song of Fire and Ice the Valerian steel blades are heirlooms handed down through familes, the Green Destiny in Crouching Tiger is a renown weapon of power, In the Heroes Whirrun of Bligh weilds the Father of Swords,  in Dying Earth a lot of the major Antagonists we meet have a powerful item but they are willing to show them off so they build up a reputation.
What do you do with items that have a reputation (and I personally think all items should have a rep even if the PCs don't know about it or the general population has forgotten)?

Quote from: jibbajibba;595398How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

In the fiction it is normal for magic items in the hands of powerful or renown NPCs or characters to be well known so from The Song of Fire and Ice the Valerian steel blades are heirlooms handed down through familes, the Green Destiny in Crouching Tiger is a renown weapon of power, In the Heroes Whirrun of Bligh weilds the Father of Swords,  in Dying Earth a lot of the major Antagonists we meet have a powerful item but they are willing to show them off so they build up a reputation.
What do you do with items that have a reputation (and I personally think all items should have a rep even if the PCs don't know about it or the general population has forgotten)?

Great point. When I run, items of +2 or higher bonus, major miscellaneous items, and powerful charged wands and staffs will have backstories. Lesser items, +1 items, potions, and scrolls tend not to get much (if any) backstory.

In ACKS, an item with a reputation/backstory has a chance to be identified by a bard, sage, or other character with Loremastery class power. Loremastery reveals the item's name, origin, and reputed powers, but not charges, magical bonuses, or game mechanics. E.g. "this the spear Feeder of Crows, wielded by Marcus Odysius from 325 BE to 335. The spear is said to pierce steel like cloth and have claimed the lives of a score of men".

Quote from: jibbajibba;595398How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

Fun mercantile fact: it is almost always cheaper to assassinate the shmucks in possession of such an artifact, or perhaps simply have it stolen from then, than to pay a halfway fair price. If you're in any position of local political power, having them thrown into the dungeons on trumped-up charges and confiscating their possessions is even cheaper and actually less risky, too. If you are any sort of of wizard, sorcerer, warlock, mage or cultist, a creature summoned from the Realms Beyond makes an ideal non-negotiated ownership transfer facilitator.

Quote from: Premier;595432Fun mercantile fact: it is almost always cheaper to assasinate the shmucks in possession of such an artifact, or perhaps simply have it stolen from then, than to pay a halfway fair price. If you're in any position of local political power, having them thrown into the dungeons on trumped-up charges and confiscating their possessions is even cheaper and actually less risky, too. If you are any sort of of wizard, sorcerer, warlock, mage or cultist, a creature summoned from the Realms Beyond makes an ideal non-negotiated ownership transfer facilitator.

Technically many of the most powerful magical items should be royal or noble heirlooms. If they aren't, the person that holds them often ends up becoming noble or royal. Governments don't tend to like random mercenaries wandering around with weapons powerful enough to give an edge to anyone who wants to overthrow them. Many a Roman general came to a bad end for being too successful.

Quote from: The Traveller;595439Technically many of the most powerful magical items should be royal or noble heirlooms. If they aren't, the person that holds them often ends up becoming noble or royal. Governments don't tend to like random mercenaries wandering around with weapons powerful enough to give an edge to anyone who wants to overthrow them. Many a Roman general came to a bad end for being too successful.

Quite true. Even in my space-empire setting, the relics, powerful items, and 'artefacts' are owned, controlled or in the possession of the Imperial family, or in the Great Archive, or in private museums of members of the Regal and Ancient Houses.

Few of these are ever used, but some were lost during the old wars, which could be uncovered. That doesn't mean that the finder will know what they do, if anything. If they can ind references to them somewhere, or images of them from the past, they can identify the item by name, and possibly gain clues to what it does.

If a PC is granted access to any such of these, other than by stealing it, then it is a very carefully controlled loan. Frankly, the player greed will usually punish them, as most of these have some sort of side-effect (often corruption) when using them, or when touching them, or having them in your possession. Some of the dangers are downright awful or terrifying.

A person who tries to use 'The Law of Saeros' (an object that banishes an entity by name into a dimensional prison, within a space between the realms of the living and the realm of the transition of death), without the authority or right may find themselves trapped within it themselves.

Anyone who wears Saerena's Crown that isn't either Saerena, or her legal heir, will find that it slowly, but physically, infiltrates your brain, filtering what you hear and see, and manipulating you; and draining your sanity at the same time. It will also reform reality and physical laws, but it does so with spoken word (even accidental), plus conscious and subconscious thought, so if you don't know how to control these aspects, you're in for a world of fun.

Have you ever used the words, in sarcasm 'I wish I was dead!'? Well, now you are! :D

Lesser items of antiquity are owned by families on noble houses as heirlooms. These might be given to characters by earning favour, especially loyal agents of that house.

I always allow characters can work to make their own items. It is important to note that Zoria is a skill-based game that uses classes, but places no restrictions on who can cast spells. Anyone can learn spells, or mystical theory, and other mystic skills. Non-mages have no MEA, but they can tap into external MEA sources, use mystical elements, or use their physical body or spirit as energy for spellcasting.

Additionally, items that grant a perpetual spell-effect are less-important in the system, as it is possible for some mages to make spells perpetual without an item. At 9th level, a Generalist Wizaed gains the feature 'Permanent Effect', which allows them to spend ten-times the normal MEA cost of a spell to make it permanent. The spell must have a duration longer than zero for this to work though; most damaging spells have a duration of 0 (e.g. Instantaneous).

'Buff' spells do not, so if you grant yourself 2d4 Reasoning, and make it permanent, it stays until dispelled or dismissed. (This is an example of why you would play a mage in a game that allows anyone can learn spells; only this class/profession gains that ability, and each profession has unique abilities).

Making magical items such as the classical Sword of Fire is another matter. Just making a +1-enhanced sword might work, but giving it special abilities would not, unless you create a spell that gives an item that ability. There are always methods to make items.

Of course, the same wizard could also make a spell that gives a blade the 'Vorpal' quality for a segment, and place it on a weapon, selling it; they could also ensure that if the weapon was ever used against them, it instantly killed the wielder instead.

Keep in mind that to do this, the wizard would need 50x10 (500) MEA. If he is gaining 5d6 MEA per level with a Reasoning score of 20, then he would only have around 158 MEA (on average) by level nine, and that is assuming he is extremely intelligent. As such, he would need mystical materials, or an MEA battery, which requires extremely rare materials, or some other means of amassing 500MEAt to cast the spell.

Someone might make such at item as a testament to their life by Soulstriking when they know they are about to, or soon to, die. That would add their Constitution score to their MEA pool, and then multiply it by their Soul statistic (not modifier). Assuming the same wizard with an MEA pool of 158, a Constitution of 12, and a Soul of 9, he would have 1,530 MEA to spend for one, final, devastating spell; no resurrection possible, and no afterlife. (Soulstrikes burn up your entire soul to empower magic.)

Anyhow, there really isn't a demand for this sort of item outside the black market. The Empire would frown on someone trying to openly sell weapons more powerful than those assigned to the militia.

If something like this happened, the emotions of the mage at the moment of his death will leave an imprint on the item that taints it somehow. Taint is not always bad: It depends on your perspective, as it can represent corruption, depravity, righteousness and purity. The item may also have a psychic imprint of sadness, joy, or drive you insane. It takes a very emotional or extreme mental reaction to perform a soulstrike.

This would work as a different dynamic for other systems using my setting, but the point remains that I don't usually use normal store-like settings for items, aside from trinkets, minor one-shots, elixirs, and luxury (hedonistic) objects; and objects that provide transcendental space, although this is also commonly available in late-era periods via technology as well.

There are businesses that will craft objects, often techno-mystical or techno-psychic for you, but they don't keep most on hand, except for very common things, such as psychic-link locks that only allow one person to fire an energy gun, or one person to use a specific computer. They are a circuit that is attuned to one mental imprint, and thereafter, a device to which they are attached will only work for the person that imprinted them.

You can also buy a fixed-genome coder and fixed-genome lock to do the same with genetics, and an aura-link lock (a techno-mystic item) that reads your unique spiritual aura.

The truly paranoid will use all three, in addition to whatever security measures they want to employ to protect their devices. (X|S)

Quote from: MagesGuild;595612If a PC is granted access to any such of these, other than by stealing it, then it is a very carefully controlled loan. Frankly, the player greed will usually punish them, as most of these have some sort of side-effect (often corruption) when using them, or when touching them, or having them in your possession. Some of the dangers are downright awful or terrifying.

BORING!!!  

This is a type of behavior that I've seen in lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party, but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not a game.

If the item has serious drawbacks, most PCs would prefer not to use it.  If the PC must use the item to succeed, we're clearly on a railroad, even if it is well-intentioned.  It's different if the PCs decide that they'd prefer to use a dangerous item as a reliable way to accomplish their goal, but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

My opinion, anyways.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

Can't say I found the Lord of the Rings terribly boring. :p Its a useful enough tool as long as its not overused, preferably kept for the big stuff and with lots of routes to reach the one goal to rule them all.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649BORING!!!  

This is a type of behavior that I've seen in lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party, but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not a game.

If the item has serious drawbacks, most PCs would prefer not to use it.  If the PC must use the item to succeed, we're clearly on a railroad, even if it is well-intentioned.  It's different if the PCs decide that they'd prefer to use a dangerous item as a reliable way to accomplish their goal, but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

My opinion, anyways.

Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Quote from: The Traveller;595652Can't say I found the Lord of the Rings terribly boring. :p Its a useful enough tool as long as its not overused, preferably kept for the big stuff and with lots of routes to reach the one goal to rule them all.

That's my point.  It's fine for a novel, because the author is orchestrating both the actions of the protagonists and the actions of the antagonists, with the intended result of making a dramatic story.  It's possible for a dramatic story to emerge in a game, but choice needs to be more than an illusion.  Not every character in a novel needs to wrestle with what to do and how to do it, but that tends to be an important part of the game.

It starts with 'as a character, you don't have to go on an adventure you don't want to'.  Now, a bad DM will run a specific adventure regardless of whether the players want to play, and anyone that sits out sits out of the game.  But while the DM might be within his rights to decide what game he's going to run, it's still the sign of a bad DM.  Players should have choices.  

Giving them items that are crappy items or have terrible consequences either allows them to choose the item or requires it.  If it is a choice, smart players will choose not to use them.  If it's not a choice, it's bad adventure design.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;595655Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Yeah, cause we're playing a SEAL team that is expected to return to civilian life?  

No, we're playing as career adventurers.  They're 'on duty' all the time.  Whether they're relaxing at the King's Ball or delving into the dungeon, they're looking for something to happen.  And because it's a game, most of the time something will be happening.  

Now, I'm not saying that the PCs should always have access to particular items.  It's fine to have an item that is useful for a specific quest and then it ceases to be useful.  It's also okay for the PCs to get an item and then decide that it is better to destroy that item rather than allow it to fall into the wrong hands.  It's absolutely fine to give PCs a reason not to over-use a particular item without making it so that using it too much gives you testicular cancer.  But generally, when I see that type of behavior, I see it from DMs that don't trust their players.

Considering how much people here like to say 'show me where the bad DM touched you' or 'you just need to trust your DM', I'd say it goes both ways.  If the DM can't give the party a 'fun' item without worrying about the consequences all the time, that's a sign that the DM has problems, not that I can't think 'in-character'.  

Magic should be 'special'.  Not every game could support a 'shop', but most have magic common enough that it could, and logically should.  If every item is 'cursed', than nobody would be expected to use magical items to begin with.  I see that as throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595655Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Yes, and magical items or artefacts in myth and legend never had any drawbacks.  They worked exactly as they said on the tin every time, and no one was corrupted or suffered any kind of setback whatsoever using them.  Artefacts having deleterious effects on the user is wholly an invention of Vintage AD&D Gaming.

Just for reference I do not think all items shoudl have downsides in and of themselves.
I do think that powerful items should have a reputation and indeed much like amarcis says a lore check should reveal it's history and backstory with degrees of success giving more detail and hints about powers etc.

I do think that once a PC starts to demonstrate their ownership of the Green Destiny, One ring of Power, etc that they will attract the attention of NPCs of interest. So the downside of owning the Father of Swords isn't so much that it gives you testicular cancer so much as it attracts thieves, bravos and assasins which is an in game, in character downside as opposed to a meta downside.


Tieing this thread back to Traveller's thread on shoul low level magic items actually be 'magical at all'? I think there is possibly an ideal system where low level items like +1 or maybe +2 weapons, potions etc could be created using materials, so a certain sort of rare metal creates these arms and weapons valerian steel, adamantine, mithril. Or a certain mix of herbs and rare creature parts, creates potions. Bu thte more powerful items are created my mages with great skill and are unique.

So you have a market for lesser items which is really about quality production with skilled artisans searching for rare materials.

Then at the top end you get the power items whch you treat like aretfacts and each has a backstory etc.

At the end of the day, the only realistic answer is "it depends on the setting." Glorantha? Yeah, fits. A Viking campaign? Not so much. And so on.

DeadDM, it kind of depends on the specifics. Let's say you've got a highly lethal combat system. PCs die every other session or so, even with only one fight a week. And here's a magic item that more or less automatically wins fights but drags you down to hell after being used 3 times.

People will use that, even given a choice, because they can predict when the drawback of using it will occur, but not when the drawback of *not* using it will occur. Hell, they may even use it all three times if the third fight especially matters to their character. Maybe to avoid a TPK? Save a town the party likes? Point is stakes can be high without relating them to individual character death.

Quote from: StormBringer;595703Yes, and magical items or artefacts in myth and legend never had any drawbacks.  They worked exactly as they said on the tin every time, and no one was corrupted or suffered any kind of setback whatsoever using them.  Artefacts having deleterious effects on the user is wholly an invention of Vintage AD&D Gaming.

Is that what you think I said?  Stop being a dumbass.  

Rarely, it might make sense for an artifact to have some dolorous side effects, but usually it's used as gamist block to keep PCs from having fun.  Better not to include such artifacts.  It's 'fun' for the DM, not the players.  There are plenty of reasons why the PCs wouldn't want to abuse an artifact besides 'curse'.  If you can't think of any, than you're the ones that lack creativity.

As for artifacts from myth and legend that have intrinsic ill effects, I'd be curious to know which ones you mean.  In a general sense, the 'corruption' you associate with certain powerful items is allegorical for 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'.  The question becomes whether the item itself causes corruption, or just using the item.  Honestly, allowing a player to get 'corrupted' by overusing the item without any mechanical effects seems appropriate.  If you have a 'superweapon' that kills people outside of your intended area, dealing with the consequences of that 'in-game' could be fun.  Rolling a sanity check, no thank you.  That's boring.  

It's specifically a gamist curb on power when there are other ways to address it.  Other ways that are consistent with the game world.  

There is a place for 'cursed artifacts', but it should be rare, and it should have a very good reason for existing.  It should also be fun for the players, not just the DM.  

JibbaJibba has the right of it - in-game consequences are appropriate, but curses and sanity checks are meta-concepts.  They're a crutch, and a weak one.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649This is a type of behavior that I've seen in  lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party,  but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings  that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not  a game.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595749Is that what you think I said?  Stop being a dumbass.  

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595749Rarely, it might make sense for an artifact to have some dolorous side effects, but usually it's used as gamist block to keep PCs from having fun.  Better not to include such artifacts.  It's 'fun' for the DM, not the players.  There are plenty of reasons why the PCs wouldn't want to abuse an artifact besides 'curse'.  If you can't think of any, than you're the ones that lack creativity.

You might want to wait a post or two before directly contradicting yourself in the future.

QuoteIt's specifically a gamist curb on power when there are other ways to  address it.

Except that it isn't, because dabbling with powerful magic has always had unwanted side effects from antiquity to the modern day.

QuoteIn a general sense, the 'corruption' you associate with certain powerful  items is allegorical for 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts  absolutely'.

And holding off before posting the explanation for your own lack of insight would be advisable as well.

What do you suggest, ordering the player to act as though they are corrupted?  Tell them to use the item more?  Take over their PC and have them sit this one out?  Talk about being on the railroad of a failed novelist.  Much like level drain, the best way of simulating this is mechanically, and it gives an actual consequence to their decision to use an item anyway, unlike your notion of 'no discernible consequences'.  Yes, yes, people might be killed when the characters use the item.  Hey, guess what?  They were probably intending to kill some people using it anyway.

QuoteIf you have a 'superweapon' that kills people outside of your intended  area, dealing with the consequences of that 'in-game' could be fun.   Rolling a sanity check, no thank you.  That's boring.

In other words, dealing with a result that has no real enforceable bearing on play is fun, while the chance of not getting a ribbon just for showing up is boring.

deadDM: The poster you're arguing with is named after a cursed item out of an iconic bit of fantasy fiction.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Quote from: beejazz;595787deadDM: The poster you're arguing with is named after a cursed item out of an iconic bit of fantasy fiction.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

:hatsoff:
And the concept was hardly invented whole cloth in the 60s by Moorcock.  Although historically, magic weapons and armour always seemed to do what they were supposed to.

Quote from: StormBringer;595789:hatsoff:
And the concept was hardly invented whole cloth in the 60s by Moorcock.  Although historically, magic weapons and armour always seemed to do what they were supposed to.

I'm pretty sure my favorite implementation of the cursed item is in the bag of devouring category. It does something. It sucks if you try to use it not knowing what it does, but can become useful again once you know. Meshes well with finding random crap in the dungeon and poking stuff with sticks.

But that doesn't mesh as well with a magic shop, who would be interested in finding out what something actually does before selling it. Cursed items out of a shop should be more in the "costs and/or collateral damage" category.

Randomized failure and backfiring are mildly annoying to me (they seem a little more appropriate for a scifi than a fantasy MacGuffin) while a fixed cost, done well, feels more right.

Fixed failure is fine too. Thor's goats wouldn't get up when that peasant kid ate the marrow from their bones. I'm sure there are better examples not coming to me.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595735Tieing this thread back to Traveller's thread on shoul low level magic items actually be 'magical at all'? I think there is possibly an ideal system where low level items like +1 or maybe +2 weapons, potions etc could be created using materials, so a certain sort of rare metal creates these arms and weapons valerian steel, adamantine, mithril. Or a certain mix of herbs and rare creature parts, creates potions. Bu thte more powerful items are created my mages with great skill and are unique.

So you have a market for lesser items which is really about quality production with skilled artisans searching for rare materials.

Now we enter the interesting field of mastercrafted items, such as Damascus or folded steel. I see no qualm giving such a weapon an edge in play, be it an bonus to strike, additional damage, the ability to easily cleave, a greater hardness so that it damages defending/parrying weapons, and the like.

This is certainly a way to add another facet to objects: Mastercrafted items also don't cease to have their properties when dispelled or in a null-magical field. (X|S)

Quote from: beejazz;595792I'm pretty sure my favorite implementation of the cursed item is in the bag of devouring category. It does something. It sucks if you try to use it not knowing what it does, but can become useful again once you know. Meshes well with finding random crap in the dungeon and poking stuff with sticks.

Even the stuff that was supposed to be beneficial in the 1st Edition DMG was only undangerous about half the time.  :)

QuoteBut that doesn't mesh as well with a magic shop, who would be interested in finding out what something actually does before selling it. Cursed items out of a shop should be more in the "costs and/or collateral damage" category.

Yeah, a Warehouse 13 sort of storage facility would be more appropriate for most of those kinds of 'magic gone awry'.

QuoteRandomized failure and backfiring are mildly annoying to me (they seem a little more appropriate for a scifi than a fantasy MacGuffin) while a fixed cost, done well, feels more right.

Fixed failure is fine too. Thor's goats wouldn't get up when that peasant kid ate the marrow from their bones. I'm sure there are better examples not coming to me.

Agreed.  If the 'randomized' doesn't crop up at a crucial moment, and the 'backfire' is embarrassing or causes a small delay, it can provide a bit of comic relief.  And predictable failure has uses as well.  Something dangerously unpredictable is not terribly fun.

Quote from: StormBringer;595931Yeah, a Warehouse 13 sort of storage facility would be more appropriate for most of those kinds of 'magic gone awry'.

Depends on whether the shopkeeper is interested in profit or in something else. A sufficiently bored immortal might take an afternoon's entertainment from selling cursed items to hapless adventurers. Perhaps the shop is a means to collect souls for a Daemon Prince, and the curses inevitably lead to damnation of one form or another. When it comes to magic the motivations of merchants shouldn't be taken for granted I feel.

Quote from: The Traveller;595954Depends on whether the shopkeeper is interested in profit or in something else. A sufficiently bored immortal might take an afternoon's entertainment from selling cursed items to hapless adventurers. Perhaps the shop is a means to collect souls for a Daemon Prince, and the curses inevitably lead to damnation of one form or another. When it comes to magic the motivations of merchants shouldn't be taken for granted I feel.

Or it could be a mage's guild. They'd have reasons to keep both useful and dangerous items (the latter for research or just to keep out of the hands of the public). Now, they might not sell the really dangerous stuff, but the second the PCs get the idea to rob the place they may be in for a few surprises both good and bad.

Quote from: beejazz;594179I think the problem with the magic shop is more the shop than the magic. The resemblance to any kind of modern store feels weird in a time period when people are more likely to buy and sell in open air markets, with caravans, or by interacting directly with people who make the items. And given the high cost, magic items might be more likely to be exchanged for the same reasons and under the same circumstances as land and such.

There were "shops" in the middle ages, usually the front end of the house where a craftsman both lived and worked; that said, the format would usually only make sense if the person with the "shop" was actually making the magic items.  I do think it would be more logical that magic items, when they were available for sale, would end up being sold through contacts and private arrangements via fixers, rather than at a storefront.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;596341I do think it would be more logical that magic items, when they were available for sale, would end up being sold through contacts and private arrangements via fixers, rather than at a storefront.

This. I don't like to have *dingaling* "What can I do for you today, sir" magic shops in my campaigns. However, I'm okay with "a wand yer wanting, is it? Well I know where ye might get one. But it will cost dearly. And perhaps not in gold."

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110The same goes for antique pipes. I picked up a CFP meershaum with 14K gold bands around the shank and the bowl in a leather, form-made, velvet-lined case about eight years back for $50. The gold itself was even then, worth that or more in melt. Just this week I snagged another WDC briar with 14K trim for about $100. If you bought any pipe with gold trim made today, you'd pay over $2,500 for it.

I buy Dunhill pieces from the 1930s though the 1950s for between $50 and $200 each. I paid $400 for a 1950s Dunhill ODB: That is a $4,000 pipe in the Dunhill store if you buy it new. I found a Dunhill-made Hardcastle Straight-grain / quasi flame-grain for around $40; try walking into the Dunhill store and buying a flame-grain or straight-grain for under $2,000.

My 1930s Dunhill Churchwarden set me back around $100. I think that the lowest-priced Dunhill today cots over $400, and their seconds lines (Parker/Hardcastle) start around $75 or so. New items simply cost more than used ones,a nd even unused pre-owned items. I bought a trio of three 1850s (yes, Eighteen-Fifties) WDCs, with amber stems, plus an assortment of extra horn and amber stems, for under $100.

If you have a single amber stem cut today, assuming you can find anyone to cut it, and drill it for you, and a bone tenon to match, it will cost more than $100. That's a custom-made item, and you need to pay for the time and craftsmanship, plus the markup on new materials, and their overhead.

Interesting, a fellow pipe smoker!

I'll note a couple of things: first, Dunhills from the 1930s did not have the same quality control that later Dunhills did (the peak period for Dunhills was from about 1960-80; before or after that, the quality of the pipes is considerably inferior).  I had a personal chat about 10 years ago with the guy who was in charge of Dunhill's pipes and he pointed out to me that many of the antique dunhills he's seen are pipes that he would not have approved to get the "white spot" today.  Of course, that doesn't stop them from sometimes selling for stupidly high amounts, if they're in good condition.

Second, Dunhills are overpriced in general; particularly now that they aren't even made by Dunhill anymore. I say this as a Dunhill fan; I have a $1000 Amber Root Bulldog, and my first high-end pipe was  Dunhill Classic Series Rhodesian, which is still one of my favorites; but the plain fact is that with Dunhill, you're paying a considerable surcharge for the fucking white spot.  For many years, Ashton pipes in particular were at least as high quality as Dunhills and sold for much cheaper; not to mention the plethora of often-incredible Italian pipes.
Today, the NEW Ben Wade pipes being produced (note: I'm talking about the ones in production today, "ben wade" as a brand has had tremendous ups and downs in quality over the years) are literally made in the same factory as Dunhills and are of exactly the same quality; the only difference aside from the white spot is that Ben Wades tend to be slightly less pretty in their finish, but they smoke just as great as any dunhill, and the difference in price is astounding; I've been buying up Ben Wade Ruby pipes for $80 that smoke just as well as my $300-1000 dunhills!

RPGPundit

I don't have a problem, if your setting is one where magic is extremely rare, to have players choose to sell magic items for a very good haul of money.  Its a choice to be made.

The problem arises if magic items are extremely common in your setting AND somehow fetch a high price.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;596373The problem arises if magic items are extremely common in your setting AND somehow fetch a high price.

RPGPundit

This is where I think it gets interesting.  Most DMs are a little afraid of what players are going to do with 'stupid amounts of money'.  I think more DMs should try it a time or two.  As long as players can't buy 'awesome' magical items for 'mere gold', you can pretty much see where players will take it.  Once the high-end magic is off the table, gold becomes interesting again.  Spending thousands of gold on defenses, or building a 'tax-free town' and really interacting with the setting become possibilities.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;596387This is where I think it gets interesting.  Most DMs are a little afraid of what players are going to do with 'stupid amounts of money'.  I think more DMs should try it a time or two.  As long as players can't buy 'awesome' magical items for 'mere gold', you can pretty much see where players will take it.  Once the high-end magic is off the table, gold becomes interesting again.  Spending thousands of gold on defenses, or building a 'tax-free town' and really interacting with the setting become possibilities.

So, the campaign is better without magic item shops, or at least powerful magic item shops.

And spending thousands on defenses is already part of the game; viz. 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide

Quote from: StormBringer;596417So, the campaign is better without magic item shops, or at least powerful magic item shops.

You're a fucking dumbass.  The two statements are not mutually exclusive.  You can have magic item shops, and for most campaigns, that is absolutely logical.  Just because you have magic item shops doesn't mean that they need to have artifact level items - in part because someone has to be making those powerful items.  The most powerful wizards in the world usually won't have much incentive to make the most powerful items in the world without a good reason.  Since they can pretty much get as much gold as they want, say, by visiting the elemental plane of gold, money has no real meaning.  

Unfortunately, this is where Frank Trollman thinks things should be different.  You can use money to buy items of a certain value.  After that, you need to use things that have 'real value'.  Things like souls or other 'planar currency'.  These are things like the raw essence of chaos, and that you can really use to make purchases of ultra-powerful magical items.  

So campaigns are not better without magic item shops.  If you think so, ask yourself this - why would players want to be able to buy magic items?  If you spend enough time thinking about it, you'll understand why they can make the game better.  But of course they need to be done with some consideration.  Good DMs should be able to handle it.  Crappy DMs who are too afraid of 'powerful characters' probably can't.  

Quote from: StormBringer;596417And spending thousands on defenses is already part of the game; viz. 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide

Yes.  And being able to turn magic items directly into gold, say, instead of using to equip hirelings, can help you get to that part of the game faster.  Even before name level.  What's your point?  Dumb ass.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;596419You're a fucking dumbass.  The two statements are not mutually exclusive.  You can have magic item shops, and for most campaigns, that is absolutely logical.  Just because you have magic item shops doesn't mean that they need to have artifact level items - in part because someone has to be making those powerful items.  The most powerful wizards in the world usually won't have much incentive to make the most powerful items in the world without a good reason.  Since they can pretty much get as much gold as they want, say, by visiting the elemental plane of gold, money has no real meaning.  

So, powerful magic items shouldn't be readily available.

QuoteSo campaigns are not better without magic item shops.  If you think so, ask yourself this - why would players want to be able to buy magic items?

Because they are whiny entitled crybabies that want a ribbon just for showing up...?

QuoteIf you spend enough time thinking about it, you'll understand why they can make the game better.  But of course they need to be done with some consideration.  Good DMs should be able to handle it.  Crappy DMs who are too afraid of 'powerful characters' probably can't.

Or, you know, sometimes earning rewards makes them more treasured?

QuoteYes.  And being able to turn magic items directly into gold, say, instead of using to equip hirelings, can help you get to that part of the game faster.  Even before name level.  What's your point?  Dumb ass.

Except you can't really get to that point 'faster'.  That part of the game is what name level is for.  What were you saying about being a dumbass?  You might want to make sure you don't shit your pants before pointing out what you (always) erroneously consider a mistake.

How many times can you blurt out entirely stupid shit like 'get to the explicitly name level game before name level' without some measure of embarrassment?  Or is your ego so incredibly frail that you have a complete meltdown in the face of any contradiction, no matter how minor?

Quote from: MagesGuild;595353Dear Saeros, someone has been terribly generous with you. I have never run a game (that I started) where a low-level character had access to that measure of wealth.

Yeah. His name was Gary Gygax. He wrote the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide. You may have heard of him.

QuotePCs that could amass such wealth would be doing so by stealing it from very rich...

Or, ya know, owning a fucking bag of holding.

I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

Like I said before: If you want to have a logical setting that doesn't include magic item shops, it's not just a matter of "toning down" the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. It means radically slashing-and-burning the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. We're talking about 1/100th as many items. (Or, alternatively, accepting the fact that PCs will be richer than kings by roughly 3rd level and then following through on the consequences of that.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452Yeah. His name was Gary Gygax. He wrote the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide. You may have heard of him.



Or, ya know, owning a fucking bag of holding.

I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

Like I said before: If you want to have a logical setting that doesn't include magic item shops, it's not just a matter of "toning down" the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. It means radically slashing-and-burning the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. We're talking about 1/100th as many items. (Or, alternatively, accepting the fact that PCs will be richer than kings by roughly 3rd level and then following through on the consequences of that.)

Yup like i said in AD&D as written a 10th level figther has probably seen /found/sold/given away about 50 - 90 magical swords

One of the reasons why I like the idea that somehow a magic blade can grow with the PC. Although part of me hates that 9the games as a physics engine part of me)
I am trying to see if you can somehow make the sword make someone 15% better as opposed to just giveing them +15%

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

To quibble a bit, you're assuming that 100% of the treasure is found and retained: none consumed, none lost to destructive monster abilities, none lost to characters slain unrecoverably or leaving the party (covet the artifacts in the Chapel, anyone?), none traded away to NPCs in the Keep who might have favors to offer, none taken by fleeing tribes only half-wiped-out by initial incursions...

Most dungeon-building advice I've read urges DMs to assume the players will only recover a fraction of the treasure placed, and that's certainly the case with the players I've had.

It's a different argument, but I just want to throw in that in my games the 70kgp of treasure can only be sold for a fraction of that, and much of it can't be afforded by anybody anywhere near the Keep, so they aren't "richer than Kings" by a long shot.

I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Your mother is worthless flavor text.

Quote from: Gib;596510Your mother is worthless flavor text.

That isn't what your mother said last night.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596530That isn't what your mother said last night.

 I hope you pulled her back hair. She likes that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

In our long-running campaign playing mostly TSR modules, our PCs acquired vast quantities of magic items. The end of adventure magic item draft, even divided among 8 PCs, would typically see each PC acquire 6-10 items. When you consider that we played at a rate of about 3 adventures/ level, by 8th level we had far more magic items than could be transported, even with wagons. Storing and guarding treasure, and efforts by the DM to trim back the Christmas Tree effect, came to occupy a lot of play time.

Of course, we were young, and didn't think to simply cut back on the amount of treasure awarded in published adventures until the problem had gotten out of hand. It took playing with a different DM who ran only homebrew campaigns, until I saw the merits of a low-magic-treasure game.

Still, I'd rather magic only be available from monsters and dungeons than sold at a shop on high street. I know there's a logical hole there - what happens to all the items that PCs no longer need? - but I can live with that.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Well, in some editions of D&D, gold = XP. And then there's all of the other things you can do with gold besides buy magic items - pay taxes (involuntarily), bribe officials, buy off the thieves' guild, pay sages, hire henchmen and mercenaries, buy a ship, build a tower or castle. And in the absence of magic shops, you can convert gold to magic items by crafting magic items yourself. Which I find more palatable than WizardMart.

Quote from: Haffrung;596548Well, in some editions of D&D, gold = XP. And then there's all of the other things you can do with gold besides buy magic items - pay taxes (involuntarily), bribe officials, buy off the thieves' guild, pay sages, hire henchmen and mercenaries, buy a ship, build a tower or castle. And in the absence of magic shops, you can convert gold to magic items by crafting magic items yourself. Which I find more palatable than WizardMart.

Generally, when someone says that "gold becomes useless flavor text to be ignored because you can no longer purchase magic items with it" that means that that is the only useful thing you can do with gold.

And so listing useless things you can do with gold is quite irrelevant.

The only one that is notable is the last one. Lack of magic item shops just means Wizard and Cleric shrug, craft their standard stat and save boosters etc themselves and the Fighter goes and cries in the corner. But hey, at least he has beer right? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

So, you have never played a tabletop game, and only know RPGs via Diablo.

Quote from: Haffrung;596546In our long-running campaign playing mostly TSR modules, our PCs acquired vast quantities of magic items. The end of adventure magic item draft, even divided among 8 PCs, would typically see each PC acquire 6-10 items. When you consider that we played at a rate of about 3 adventures/ level, by 8th level we had far more magic items than could be transported, even with wagons. Storing and guarding treasure, and efforts by the DM to trim back the Christmas Tree effect, came to occupy a lot of play time.

TSR era modules were notorious for being way, way, way overstuffed with treasure and goodies.  Part of it was as Naburimannu mentioned earlier; no one was intended to make it out with everything.  Still, the loot was usually piled so high, even a moderate fraction was far and away more than a party probably should have.  It was kind of ironic reading the admonitions against 'Monty Haul' play in light of their Monty Haul squared modules.

QuoteOf course, we were young, and didn't think to simply cut back on the amount of treasure awarded in published adventures until the problem had gotten out of hand. It took playing with a different DM who ran only homebrew campaigns, until I saw the merits of a low-magic-treasure game.

I think everyone has to go through that phase first.  Crawl before walking and all that.

QuoteStill, I'd rather magic only be available from monsters and dungeons than sold at a shop on high street. I know there's a logical hole there - what happens to all the items that PCs no longer need? - but I can live with that.

I don't find that so illogical.  Let's say you grab a 40ft yacht at a estate sale for cheap or whatever, and now you want to offload it.  Generally speaking, the yacht store isn't going to just name a price and clear out some storage space.  The lament of game show contestants since the beginning of television.  Massive tax liens on luxury items, no place to really offload them easily or quickly...  these things end up being more of an albatross around the neck than an item to be enjoyed.  Especially if more or less strict encumbrance is followed.  Sure, Jibba's fighter might own four dozen swords, but where does he store them?  Obtaining them is very different than keeping them.

Quote from: StormBringer;596589So, you have never played a tabletop game, and only know RPGs via Diablo.

Lmfao.

You haven't been able to feasibly convert gold into magic items in Diablo since the original game. In the second gold is useless flavor text to be ignored, and in the third hyper inflation and various other factors make it so that you're more indirectly trading items for items than directly purchasing anything even though gold is technically the currency.

So Stormbringer fails again. The world is unsurprised.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596580Lack of magic item shops just means Wizard and Cleric shrug, craft their standard stat and save boosters etc themselves and the Fighter goes and cries in the corner.

I ran this through babelfish and I still don't understand it.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596621Lmfao.

You haven't been able to feasibly convert gold into magic items in Diablo since the original game. In the second gold is useless flavor text to be ignored, and in the third hyper inflation and various other factors make it so that you're more indirectly trading items for items than directly purchasing anything even though gold is technically the currency.

So Stormbringer fails again. The world is unsurprised.

Wow, you know more about Diablo than D&D.  I wasn't expecting that at all.

Quote from: Naburimannu;596489It's a different argument, but I just want to throw in that in my games the 70kgp of treasure can only be sold for a fraction of that...

Except you have to remember that the argument is that magic items can't be sold because nobody except the king can afford them.

So if you're arguing that magic items aren't actually worth that much because they can only be sold at a fraction of their value... well, you've just said that magic items actually sell for a lot less and, therefore, magic item shops can exist.

Let me put it this way:

(1) If magic items are so expensive that only kings can afford them AND the PCs have lots of magic items, then the PCs are richer than kings.

(2) If you make magic items less expensive, then the PCs aren't richer than kings. But magic item shops are then possible.

(3) If you radically reduce the number of magic items PCs get (to 1/100th their former rate of occurrence), then the PCs aren't richer than kings and magic item shops are also impossible.

But what can never be true is a scenario in which magic items are so ludicrously expensive that only the richest of the rich can afford them, the PCs have lots of them, but for some reason the PCs aren't richer than kings.

(In a real market, of course, this would fall out naturally: The price for magic items would fall until demand equaled supply. If the supply is high enough, the prices will be low enough that lots of people can afford them and magic item shops will be possible. If the supply is low enough, the prices will be high and magic item shops won't be likely.)

Quote from: Haffrung;596630I ran this through babelfish and I still don't understand it.

Yes, that tends not to help with such things as actually understanding the game. For that you need to actually play it.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596645Yes, that tends not to help with such things as actually understanding the game. For that you need to actually play it.

Says the moron who has no experience of tabletop games and mistakenly infers everything from TGD and Diablo.

it might be interesting to revieew what happens inpseudo real magic economies such as you find in MMOs .

From what I recall shopkeepers are either insanely tough or scenery andd have infinite wealth so ignore them but P to P sales and auctions might give us some indication ?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596640Except you have to remember that the argument is that magic items can't be sold because nobody except the king can afford them.

So if you're arguing that magic items aren't actually worth that much because they can only be sold at a fraction of their value... well, you've just said that magic items actually sell for a lot less and, therefore, magic item shops can exist.

Let me put it this way:

(1) If magic items are so expensive that only kings can afford them AND the PCs have lots of magic items, then the PCs are richer than kings.

(2) If you make magic items less expensive, then the PCs aren't richer than kings. But magic item shops are then possible.

(3) If you radically reduce the number of magic items PCs get (to 1/100th their former rate of occurrence), then the PCs aren't richer than kings and magic item shops are also impossible.

I don't think we're quite arguing past each other yet, but it's getting close.

In my world:

• If the players could find people who actually want to use the magic items the players found, they could get something close to book value.


• But if they're trying to sell to a middleman, they're facing a really steep markdown.


• Also, neither middlemen nor end-users are likely to have the free cash to afford large numbers of high-priced items. Non-cash valuables aren't necessarily things that the players want, either - unless they've already gotten into the domain game or merchanting.

I believe that this is not inconsistent with real-world economics. What am I missing?

Per the Internet, the first British "pound" coin was minted in 1583; before that the pound was just an accounting concept. Royalty may have had hundreds of thousands of pounds in income, but that doesn't mean hundreds of thousands of gp - it means, say, thousands of tons of produce, thousands of yards of fabric, ...


Although all that evolved in other systems, I'll throw in the argument from ACKS because I'm currently trying to shift in that direction: a liquid, classical-economics market in magic items depends on the easy availability of Identify. Without cheap and reliable and broadly accessible identification, who's going to trust a scruffy adventurer enough to pay them for an allegedly-magical item?

Well being a Fantasy Craft and Mage the Awakening girl ...no magic shops everything is quid pro quo.:)

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508. . . {I}f you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

And there's the answer to the question, 'what is munchkin?'

Quote from: Black Vulmea;596832And there's the answer to the question, 'what is munchkin?'

Yes, because having something that is useless except for one thing and that cannot be used for that one thing is cheating.

Or you could just be a retard. Again.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;596387This is where I think it gets interesting.  Most DMs are a little afraid of what players are going to do with 'stupid amounts of money'.  I think more DMs should try it a time or two.  As long as players can't buy 'awesome' magical items for 'mere gold', you can pretty much see where players will take it.  Once the high-end magic is off the table, gold becomes interesting again.  Spending thousands of gold on defenses, or building a 'tax-free town' and really interacting with the setting become possibilities.

Agreed; what my players have done with money in the Albion games has been quite interesting.  Several have become real estate magnates.

RPGPundit

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

They are one of the aspects I hate most about the standard tropes of D&D. Magic items aren't magical at all when you can pop round a store in any reasonable-sized settlement and exchange them.

Not only that, they perpetuate a much higher level of magic and gear-dependence than I favour in a setting. Any setting where "this sword my Dad used in the last war" is a laughable sentiment because you've just looted something much better off an opponent isn't one I'm particularly interested in.

Quote from: RPGPundit;597124Agreed; what my players have done with money in the Albion games has been quite interesting.  Several have become real estate magnates.

RPGPundit

And this is what happen when you have a realized setting that allows the players to adventure to further other, in-setting goals.  Bravo.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596839Yes, because having something that is useless except for one thing and that cannot be used for that one thing is cheating.

Anyone have a 'slobbering Diablo playing idiot-to-English' translator handy?

Quote from: Kiero;597143They are one of the aspects I hate most about the standard tropes of D&D. Magic items aren't magical at all when you can pop round a store in any reasonable-sized settlement and exchange them.

Not only that, they perpetuate a much higher level of magic and gear-dependence than I favour in a setting. Any setting where "this sword my Dad used in the last war" is a laughable sentiment because you've just looted something much better off an opponent isn't one I'm particularly interested in.

Exactly.  Kiero speaks for me in these matters.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597151And this is what happen when you have a realized setting that allows the players to adventure to further other, in-setting goals.  Bravo.

The same reason why having magic item shops isn't a big deal in the Majestic Wilderlands. They make sense given my premises, they are just one of many things a wealthy player can spend money on, and finally owning the biggest plus sword doesn't solve every problem that wealthy character face or even a majority of them. In some circumstance getting what the player wants involves acquiring a lot real estate. For others being able to build a big damn castle will help achieve their goal. For others still being able to outfit caravans to all points of the compass is the pathway to what they want to achieve.

I think that if I were to have a lot of magic items in my setting I'd institute a custom such as that that was wide spread in pre Roman Europe, wherein people just through valuable shit into lakes. this custom actually survives today in the form of the wishing well. According to some book or other I have laying about the house J. Caesar financed his exploits in Gaul by dredging up such deposits.

Quote from: estar;597180The same reason why having magic item shops isn't a big deal in the Majestic Wilderlands. They make sense given my premises, they are just one of many things a wealthy player can spend money on, and finally owning the biggest plus sword doesn't solve every problem that wealthy character face or even a majority of them. In some circumstance getting what the player wants involves acquiring a lot real estate. For others being able to build a big damn castle will help achieve their goal. For others still being able to outfit caravans to all points of the compass is the pathway to what they want to achieve.

what kind of item power to frequency distribution does the MW have?  I find that one of the issues I run into is merchants having access to powerful magic items.

Quote from: Kiero;597143They are one of the aspects I hate most about the standard tropes of D&D. Magic items aren't magical at all when you can pop round a store in any reasonable-sized settlement and exchange them.

Not only that, they perpetuate a much higher level of magic and gear-dependence than I favour in a setting. Any setting where "this sword my Dad used in the last war" is a laughable sentiment because you've just looted something much better off an opponent isn't one I'm particularly interested in.

Agreed. I only quibble with one thing: it's perhaps a standard trope of post-TSR D&D.

TSR D&D DMGs explicitly recommends against magic shops, especially for beginner GMs. They also note the drawbacks about Monty Haul campaigns and being quite generous with magical items.

Quote from: Opaopajr;597229Agreed. I only quibble with one thing: it's perhaps a standard trope of post-TSR D&D.

TSR D&D DMGs explicitly recommends against magic shops, especially for beginner GMs. They also note the drawbacks about Monty Haul campaigns and being quite generous with magical items.

My anecdotal experience would agree with you; it certainly never occurred to my group playing AD&D2e in the mid-nineties that you could have magic-marts for these things. Indeed no one ever deviated from random treasure, meaning you could end up with absolutely anything. Rather than the expectation that you'd be kitted out with appropriate gear.

As another anecdotal data point, in our 4e game there's no magic item exchange either, indeed we used the Inherent Bonuses rule to remove all the +n items altogether. Every character had three signature items, and that was it. There's no loot in the game either.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597191what kind of item power to frequency distribution does the MW have?  I find that one of the issues I run into is merchants having access to powerful magic items.

In the Majestic Wilderlands, Magic items are a luxury item similar to silk, cinnamon, and porcelain in our own history. The cost of a item is dominated by how long it takes the magic-user to create it. Which usually overwhelms the material cost. The more powerful effects take longer to enchant and you can't enchant additional effects in parallel only in series. So more powerful items naturally take more time.

The economy of selling magic item is basically four tiers.

Common which are nearly always avaliable as a luxury good. Like a +1 sword or a healing potion. You can by these from merchants specializing in magic items which are found in major cities. About as often you find a silk merchant.

Uncommon which are sold by merchants but quantities are limited. More often these items are commissioned to be picked up later. +2 swords are in this category as well as bags of holding.

Rare items can only be commissioned or bought on the auction circuit. And to access this you need to know the right people.

Unique items are not sold or auctioned as either they are holy artifacts or arcane items with a doom on it. In short,they can only be used if the person is the one to use them. This has nothing to do with power level.

The net effect is that by midlevel players can buy a low level suite of magic items like +1 gear. By name level player would bought up to +2 gear and maybe have something made that +3 or better. But this usually sucks up nearly all their silver.

Among merchant it is a luxury item and to be honest it is not that big of an advantage when trying to go up against a mid or high level character.

In my campaigns, there are a lot of things that player want to spend coin on. Most chose to use their small hoard to build something rather than go on a magic item buying spree. Largely because by name level the scope of their challenges have broadened so much that bring able to kill most everything doesn't solve their problems.

And it been this way since the first campaigns I ran using the Wilderlands 30 years ago.

Just to further clarify my point: I am not opposed to the buying and selling of magic items.

I am opposed to the idea of a magic item merchant or bazaar in which PCs can walk in and go "how much for the +3 frostbrand over there?"

I like to keep my magic items rare, and transactions involving them even rarer.

Quote from: The Butcher;597343Just to further clarify my point: I am not opposed to the buying and selling of magic items.

I am opposed to the idea of a magic item merchant or bazaar in which PCs can walk in and go "how much for the +3 frostbrand over there?"

I like to keep my magic items rare, and transactions involving them even rarer.

Agree,  the only issue I ever see is when the magic item creation system and treasure distribution doesn't reflect the rarity of a +3 frostbrand. Or whatever the cutoff the referee wants to set. If it takes a year to make a healing potion and there is only a 1% of rolling one for treasure then it makes sense that even the least magic item is rare and valuable.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Sure, ecause why would a character ever need to eat, pay for a room at an inn, hire assistants, bribe someone for information, pay for transportation, or buy clothes?

It's really annoying when all that roleplaying crap gets in the way of figuring out to-hit bonuses huh?

Quote from: TristramEvans;597386Sure, ecause why would a character ever need to eat, pay for a room at an inn, hire assistants, bribe someone for information, pay for transportation, or buy clothes?

It's really annoying when all that roleplaying crap gets in the way of figuring out to-hit bonuses huh?

Let's ignore that any player of any decent level does not need any of those things at all.

You're talking about things that cost a few silvers. You have thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of gold. You spend more on rounding errors than that.

Which you'd know if you were not a moron.

But of course you do not.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597387Let's ignore that any player of any decent level does not need any of those things at all.

You're talking about things that cost a few silvers. You have thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of gold. You spend more on rounding errors than that.

Uh-um. Sure. In a world where the cost of a day's food might be 1 gold piece, bribing people for information is going to be no more than maybe half that. Especially when you're trying to bribe a high-ranking official, a guard stationed at an important location, a presitigious member of the Wizard's Guild or someone else of the sort (a.k.a. the sort of people who are worth bribing in the first place). I guess that's completely realistic, if I wanted to bribe a real-life police chief, I certainly wouldn't expect it to cost me more than 3 dollars or so.

I guess I see why you're so quick and casual at calling others a morons. Takes one to know one, as they say.

Quote from: Premier;597390Uh-um. Sure. In a world where the cost of a day's food might be 1 gold piece, bribing people for information is going to be no more than maybe half that. Especially when you're trying to bribe a high-ranking official, a guard stationed at an important location, a presitigious member of the Wizard's Guild or someone else of the sort (a.k.a. the sort of people who are worth bribing in the first place). I guess that's completely realistic, if I wanted to bribe a real-life police chief, I certainly wouldn't expect it to cost me more than 3 dollars or so.

I guess I see why you're so quick and casual at calling others a morons. Takes one to know one, as they say.

If it does have any significant cost, then you don't do it at all because there are better and more reliable ways of getting that information. A COP runs 1,125. If some guy wants more than 100 per thing, he damn well better be better than direct dialing a greater fucking god (protip: He's not, like at fucking all).

And once you hit double digit numbers you're already paying more than the guy is worth.

Lol at failed real world analogies. In the real world you don't have people getting paid much better than everyone else just running around and if you did, you would pay that police chief the equivalent of 3 dollars for you.

Quote from: estar;597344Agree,  the only issue I ever see is when the magic item creation system and treasure distribution doesn't reflect the rarity of a +3 frostbrand. Or whatever the cutoff the referee wants to set. If it takes a year to make a healing potion and there is only a 1% of rolling one for treasure then it makes sense that even the least magic item is rare and valuable.

Pretty much where i was going.
Though it is more like a frequency distribution than a stright cut off.
I ran a few very low magic campaigns (my bronze age d20 is still very low magic) and high magic back in HS, but currently I run one where lower power magic is somewhat common, but higher level stuff is very. very rare, and since item creation is high-level artificer work (in a city of 40k, 2k are void-sensitive, but there may be 80 who can write magic into books (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14956725/Write%20Magic%2C%20Book), 40-ish who can make scrolls (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14956731/Write-Create%20Scroll), 10 who can make potions (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955459/Create%20a%20Potion), and 0-2 who can artifice items (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955522/Enchant-Artifice%20an%20Item), if they hardcast them.
Now, this amount is actually off, since some 15% of casters but 40% of artificers learn the Ritual Casting (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14956030/Ritual%20Magic) skill, which can allow a caster to use more time and reagents to cast at a slightly higher power level.

All of this just means that potions and scrolls are pretty readily available, as our items with material advantages, but even the equiv of a +1 sword is rare, and that frostbrand is the equiv of the most powerful weapon found in the current players in a decade.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597151And this is what happen when you have a realized setting that allows the players to adventure to further other, in-setting goals.  Bravo.

More than just that; one of them built a Guildhall and is now the head of the Worshipful Company of Physicians. Another is a tavern owner, a third has invested a sizeable fortune into controlling a huge chunk of London's underworld. Several have invested in trading companies for goods from the continent.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mr. GC;597387Let's ignore that any player of any decent level does not need any of those things at all.

What level do you have to be to no longer need food?

Quote from: TristramEvans;597727What level do you have to be to no longer need food?

3rd?  I really like the ring of sustenance.  Besides eliminating the need to eat, it makes your sleep more restful so you need less of it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;5977313rd?  I really like the ring of sustenance.  Besides eliminating the need to eat, it makes your sleep more restful so you need less of it.

Bleah!   No wonder I avoid magic shops ( and a normal frequency distribution)

Quote from: StormBringer;597178Anyone have a 'slobbering Diablo playing idiot-to-English' translator handy?

I believe what he's saying is that money is useless to a farmer at a grocery store.

Apparently understanding how currency works can be added to the long list of things Mr. GC doesn't understand. At this point, frankly, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he's an autistic 10 year old.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;597782I believe what he's saying is that money is useless to a farmer at a grocery store.

Apparently understanding how currency works can be added to the long list of things Mr. GC doesn't understand. At this point, frankly, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he's an autistic 10 year old.

Nah, real (not self-diagnosed online) autistics are generally very intelligent and exceptionally polite. Mr. GC is closer to the kid featured on the Real Ultimate Power website.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;5977313rd?  I really like the ring of sustenance.  Besides eliminating the need to eat, it makes your sleep more restful so you need less of it.

More like 5. You can get it at 3, but then you have nothing with any practical value. There is an alternate method you can easily do it at 3 though, and it also shuts down anti gimp nonsense like "spies" and "poison".

Also lol at the autists throwing around autism accusations. Seriously, one of the key tells is being unable to grasp subtlety and taking everything literally. This describes Justin and Tristam perfectly. I, meanwhile have run circles around them and make them Duck Season repeatedly with the same.

Back on subject... You beat your dragon, you get your bread box sized pile of gold. Now what?

Well, you can buy a few magic items with it... or you can just leave it there for all the good it will do you because if you can't buy magic items with it it's not doing much but taking up space in your bags that might or might not be extradimensional.

Replace the breadbox sized pile of coins with an actual horde and the only thing that changes is if the game breaks by giving people far more useful items than they should have (like acid without the +1 weapons and Monk's Belts at level 3 *trollface*) or if the game breaks because the players realize you've just given them a few tons of junk, and then they extrapolate from that and realize they no longer have any incentive for adventuring as it is just more of the same.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597880More like 5. You can get it at 3, but then you have nothing with any practical value. There is an alternate method you can easily do it at 3 though, and it also shuts down anti gimp nonsense like "spies" and "poison".

Also lol at the autists throwing around autism accusations. Seriously, one of the key tells is being unable to grasp subtlety and taking everything literally. This describes Justin and Tristam perfectly. I, meanwhile have run circles around them and make them Duck Season repeatedly with the same.

Back on subject... You beat your dragon, you get your bread box sized pile of gold. Now what?

Well, you can buy a few magic items with it... or you can just leave it there for all the good it will do you because if you can't buy magic items with it it's not doing much but taking up space in your bags that might or might not be extradimensional.

Replace the breadbox sized pile of coins with an actual horde and the only thing that changes is if the game breaks by giving people far more useful items than they should have (like acid without the +1 weapons and Monk's Belts at level 3 *trollface*) or if the game breaks because the players realize you've just given them a few tons of junk, and then they extrapolate from that and realize they no longer have any incentive for adventuring as it is just more of the same.

Or perhaps you can allow other to play the game the way they want to and not have to be subjected to your snorts of disgust?

Quote from: estar;597344Agree,  the only issue I ever see is when the magic item creation system and treasure distribution doesn't reflect the rarity of a +3 frostbrand. Or whatever the cutoff the referee wants to set. If it takes a year to make a healing potion and there is only a 1% of rolling one for treasure then it makes sense that even the least magic item is rare and valuable.

One of the major issues that I have always had with D&D is the disconnect of magic from the world.

They tried to ham-hock medieval society then tacked on magic and never thought about the ramifications of magic on the society.

The level someone has to be in order to create magic items and scrolls(especially in type I and II D&D) does not equate to the amount of magic/scrolls that is in treasure.  The severe lack of comfort magic items(waterproof boots, warm cloaks, a 'lighter', 'air conditioning', etc.) is not there.

Quote from: Sommerjon;597898One of the major issues that I have always had with D&D is the disconnect of magic from the world.

They tried to ham-hock medieval society then tacked on magic and never thought about the ramifications of magic on the society.

The level someone has to be in order to create magic items and scrolls(especially in type I and II D&D) does not equate to the amount of magic/scrolls that is in treasure.  The severe lack of comfort magic items(waterproof boots, warm cloaks, a 'lighter', 'air conditioning', etc.) is not there.

Right, some people just handwave it, not understanding the intellectual disconnect and the extra mental work they cause the players to connect.
 Evercoal (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/33009368/Evercoal%20Against%20the%20Cold).  your example, sir.

Quote from: Sommerjon;597897Or perhaps you can allow other to play the game the way they want to and not have to be subjected to your snorts of disgust?

Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

Fact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

It also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

Quote from: LordVreeg;597907Right, some people just handwave it, not understanding the intellectual disconnect and the extra mental work they cause the players to connect.
 Evercoal (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/33009368/Evercoal%20Against%20the%20Cold).  your example, sir.

My point.

'Evercoal'
Evercoal must have a small layer of ruby dust painted over it when it is created (normally 20-50GP worth), and this dust takes 2 hours to prepare.

The Electrum Standard
100 Copper Strips=
10 Silver Children=
1 Electrum Goodwife=
1/2 Gold Horn=
1/10 Platinum Unicorn.

The Scarlet Pilum's Militia pay their beginning recruits 13 silver children a day, and a buck seargent makes 3-5 Goodwives a day.

So for these recruits to just cover the average GP(35) of the ruby dust takes 700 silver, they make 65 silver a week so that means almost 11 weeks just for the material cost of the evercoal

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

Fact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

It also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

The point you are missing is that PCs are supposed to be emulating real characters in a real world. If you personally won $100,000 in a sweep stake what would you do with it?

Would you horde it all and then use it to purchase the latest high tech device to help you with your job (major magic items)? Would you blow it on fun tech trinkets that do useful things (minor magic items) ? Or wouil dyou blow it on coke and hookers? Maybe you buy a small business?

PCs are just like that. If you can't by the latest high tech garget cos only the government makes them then you find other uses for your cash.
I mean in Vegas a couple of months back I blew what $5K on stuff I didn't really need but fuck me it was fun.

In the words of George Best 'I made a fourtune playing football, half I blew on Women, fast cars and drink, the rest I wasted'.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

And your continued prodding had absolutely nothing to with this, right?

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Fact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

Depends completely upon which game system you use and your specific playstyle.  No matter how many times you use 'basket weaver' it means nothing to anyone here.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914It also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

Balance and type III D&D?  And you accuse us of herpaderp comments.

Quote from: jibbajibba;597918The point you are missing is that PCs are supposed to be emulating real characters in a real world. If you personally won $100,000 in a sweep stake what would you do with it?

Would you horde it all and then use it to purchase the latest high tech device to help you with your job (major magic items)? Would you blow it on fun tech trinkets that do useful things (minor magic items) ? Or wouil dyou blow it on coke and hookers? Maybe you buy a small business?

PCs are just like that. If you can't by the latest high tech garget cos only the government makes them then you find other uses for your cash.
I mean in Vegas a couple of months back I blew what $5K on stuff I didn't really need but fuck me it was fun.

In the words of George Best 'I made a fourtune playing football, half I blew on Women, fast cars and drink, the rest I wasted'.

No, PCs are not just like that. Last I checked, the only massive monsters I deal with are idiot Internet trolls. And those pose no actual threat to my person. So ultimately, I'd spend that 100k on whatever the fuck I wanted, but if I were working a dangerous profession of a kind akin to adventuring then damn straight I'd turn around and invest it in survival (alternately, I'd buy the other stuff and then retire, but at that point the game stops being about me and starts being about whatever other guy is doing my job next).

Since the game is about adventurers that go adventuring...

Quote from: Mr. GC;597952No, PCs are not just like that. Last I checked, the only massive monsters I deal with are idiot Internet trolls. And those pose no actual threat to my person. So ultimately, I'd spend that 100k on whatever the fuck I wanted, but if I were working a dangerous profession of a kind akin to adventuring then damn straight I'd turn around and invest it in survival (alternately, I'd buy the other stuff and then retire, but at that point the game stops being about me and starts being about whatever other guy is doing my job next).

Since the game is about adventurers that go adventuring...

No your playstyle is about adventurers that go adventuring.

Your standard basket weaver dismissal is duly noted and disregarded. Have something new to add, or are you done?

Dont make this into another basket weaver thread. Subject is magic shops.

Quote from: Sommerjon;597915My point.

'Evercoal'
Evercoal must have a small layer of ruby dust painted over it when it is created (normally 20-50GP worth), and this dust takes 2 hours to prepare.

The Electrum Standard
100 Copper Strips=
10 Silver Children=
1 Electrum Goodwife=
1/2 Gold Horn=
1/10 Platinum Unicorn.

The Scarlet Pilum's Militia pay their beginning recruits 13 silver children a day, and a buck seargent makes 3-5 Goodwives a day.

So for these recruits to just cover the average GP(35) of the ruby dust takes 700 silver, they make 65 silver a week so that means almost 11 weeks just for the material cost of the evercoal

Dude, you make me very, very happy.

yes, this is the truth, and the normal cost is 160 goodwives to buy some that is made, so it is the kind of thing that is normally bought by the upper classes or guilds.  It is, like silk or the ruby, a luxury item.  The availability of magic and spellcasting, as well as the rarity of some reagents, is part of the economy.  The Scarlet Pilums are not going to be buying luxury items.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597958Your standard basket weaver dismissal is duly noted and disregarded. Have something new to add, or are you done?

What have you added since you came here?  Basket weaver and herpaderp?

You haven't shown a single thing that makes any of us swoon with your 'helpful' insights.  You trumpet the most fundamentally flawed edition of D&D, yet your self worth is so flaccid that you need to go on the internet to proclaim your 'expertise' in order to get a bump.   It's not our fault your id is so wrapped up in your supposed 'dominance' of D&D.  

Congratulations you break an already broken game.  Wow what an accomplishment.
This is how much we care
(http://files.myopera.com/saysame/albums/361896/thumbs/2toilet.jpg_thumb.jpg)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;597965Dont make this into another basket weaver thread. Subject is magic shops.

Quote from: Mr. GC*stopped talking after demonstrating that that guy had nothing new to add*

Quote from: SommerjonMore herpaderp.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

Fact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

It also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

See what I mean?

Now if someone has something new to add when it comes to magic items are the only useful things you can buy ok, we can talk about that. If not though then I'm done.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597966Dude, you make me very, very happy.

yes, this is the truth, and the normal cost is 160 goodwives to buy some that is made, so it is the kind of thing that is normally bought by the upper classes or guilds.  It is, like silk or the ruby, a luxury item.  The availability of magic and spellcasting, as well as the rarity of some reagents, is part of the economy.  The Scarlet Pilums are not going to be buying luxury items.

My point is (quoting you) "Magic is a cornerstone of a fantasy world."  
Simple magic items would be all around a fantasy setting.  But it isn't in D&D(and most older RPGs)  That will always bug me.

Quote from: Sommerjon;597976My point is (quoting you) "Magic is a cornerstone of a fantasy world."  
Simple magic items would be all around a fantasy setting.  But it isn't in D&D(and most older RPGs)  That will always bug me.

Well, no, the frequency distribution of magic items is still going to be part of supply and demand and availability.
What bugs me is when the mechanics and/or the setting does not take these into account.  When artificing items is a difficult magic, with major expenditures of cash, it will be rare.  The availability of magic items is not directly related to the commonality of magic as a whole, in other words.

Most of the cradlelands of Celtricia have a huge striation of wealth, without a large middle class, and with much of the wealth tied up in guild/organizations.  Wood, peat, etc are still used as the primary heat sources for most of the population, evercoal is found in many organizations, high end businesses, and wealthy families.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597880Also lol at the autists throwing around autism accusations. Seriously, one of the key tells is being unable to grasp subtlety and taking everything literally. This describes Justin and Tristam perfectly. I, meanwhile have run circles around them and make them Duck Season repeatedly with the same.

subtelty? you?
LOL, you have absolutely no self awareness at all do you? It's like talking to a comedy idiot savant. You should write fanfic.

You are trying to explain human behavior to a robot. From other planet. From Bizarro dimension.

Good luck with that.

Quote from: LordVreeg;597983Well, no, the frequency distribution of magic items is still going to be part of supply and demand and availability.
What bugs me is when the mechanics and/or the setting does not take these into account.  When artificing items is a difficult magic, with major expenditures of cash, it will be rare.  The availability of magic items is not directly related to the commonality of magic as a whole, in other words.

The artificial attempt in making magic item creation difficult is rather irksome to me.  The practical applications for the tactical gear that PCs come across is mind boggling, yet these things are never used in that capacity?  Why?

Quote from: Sommerjon;598052The artificial attempt in making magic item creation difficult is rather irksome to me.  The practical applications for the tactical gear that PCs come across is mind boggling, yet these things are never used in that capacity?  Why?

Because they're rare, and the PCs are neither the standard, nor the center of the world?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;597782I believe what he's saying is that money is useless to a farmer at a grocery store.

Apparently understanding how currency works can be added to the long list of things Mr. GC doesn't understand. At this point, frankly, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he's an autistic 10 year old.

Probably be easier to start keeping track of the things he does understand.  Less wear and tear on the keyboard.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914It also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

Only number-twat tabletop Diablo games based on constantly getting the DMs approval with the biggest scores on the bestest character sheet revolve around that, because there is no way in hell you would survive playing an actual RPG with people.  'Using 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective' is exclusively a conceit from Diablo (WoW, GuildWars, whatever) style play; ie, someone who has never played D&D or any RPG with paper and dice.

Quote from: Benoist;598063Because they're rare, and the PCs are neither the standard, nor the center of the world?

They are artificially rare.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598096They are artificially rare.

I don't quite understand this; everything in the game is artificial.

Quote from: StormBringer;598113I don't quite understand this; everything in the game is artificial.

1e dmg pg116
"a player character must be at least an 11th level high priest, an archdruid, a 12th level wizard or an 11th level illusionist in order to manufacture magic items...."

Even as a 14yr old kid this made no sense.
Where are the items that make life easier?  Like plows that move through the earth easily?  Or saws that cut stone as easily as wood?  Or containers that keep food fresh as the day they were picked?  Or wheel-barrels that hold more than they should.   Or baskets that weigh next to nothing even when loaded with heavy items? And on and on.  These things are not there.  Because magic in D&D is 90% combat related only.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597952No, PCs are not just like that. Last I checked, the only massive monsters I deal with are idiot Internet trolls. And those pose no actual threat to my person. So ultimately, I'd spend that 100k on whatever the fuck I wanted, but if I were working a dangerous profession of a kind akin to adventuring then damn straight I'd turn around and invest it in survival (alternately, I'd buy the other stuff and then retire, but at that point the game stops being about me and starts being about whatever other guy is doing my job next).

Since the game is about adventurers that go adventuring...

See no.

PCs are people that live in a make believe world constructed by the GM and the players working together. They inhabit this space and when in it are free to make any decisions they sit. They can choose to go adventuring if they like but that is just one option presented to them. Sure enough if they choose not to take it chances ar ethat adventure will come and find them after all that is the nature of the flow of the game.
Have you really never played a character that decided to lay down his sword/wand/spell book and reture but then found his life filled with the complexity of old friends, enemies and local incursions all settign out to ruin his day and force him to take up arems once more.
You have never played a PC who's main concern was something other than killing things and taking their stuff?
Have you ever had an in character conversation with a stable hand or fallen in love with an imaginary woman?

And here was you labling yourself a great player and yet you have never even played at all ...

Quote from: StormBringer;598082Only number-twat tabletop Diablo games based on constantly getting the DMs approval with the biggest scores on the bestest character sheet revolve around that, because there is no way in hell you would survive playing an actual RPG with people.  'Using 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective' is exclusively a conceit from Diablo (WoW, GuildWars, whatever) style play; ie, someone who has never played D&D or any RPG with paper and dice.

1: Hi Welcome
2: For all your sperging about Diablo it has more of a story than your "storygames" despite having almost no story whatsoever. This is because stories need conflict to exist, and conflict will result in them gimps getting swept so either you have a story that ends halfway through the prologue or that never even begins. Meanwhile the minimalistic, bad story of Diablo is at least complete.
3: I was talking about D&D. In D&D you are expected to spend your resources on character effectiveness because that is what matters, not your goddamned magical tea. So while you're busy getting slaughtered repeatedly, I'm still playing the same character 10 minutes in and actually getting to ya know, roleplay and stuff. Because see, when your job demands competence you step it up or step on out.

Numbers twat? You see numbers and pussy the fuck out, because you know you auto lose the instant you cannot bribe/bully/bullshit the DM for victory.

You have almost 9,000 posts and every single one of them are completely useless.

Show me one time, one post where you have made a statement of value. I'll wait, but not hold my breath.

Now blow on out of this thread.

Quote from: Sommerjon;5981471e dmg pg116
"a player character must be at least an 11th level high priest, an archdruid, a 12th level wizard or an 11th level illusionist in order to manufacture magic items...."

Even as a 14yr old kid this made no sense.
Where are the items that make life easier?  Like plows that move through the earth easily?  Or saws that cut stone as easily as wood?  Or containers that keep food fresh as the day they were picked?  Or wheel-barrels that hold more than they should.   Or baskets that weigh next to nothing even when loaded with heavy items? And on and on.  These things are not there.  Because magic in D&D is 90% combat related only.

well, no.
Yes, D&D magic is 80-90% combat related.  But that is not what makes magic item creation hard or easy.

That is up to the determination of the GM as to the type of game and setting they want to create.  Pure and simple.
D&D, like any game, and like mine, detemined what type of rarity and magic system they wanted.   Just because something has utility does not make it easy to do or create.  
If a GM wants to create a world where magic items are readily available and easy to make and common, that is still a GM choice and pretty easy to implement, though it might lose some of the thrill of discovery.

Now, as to your unrelated point, I agree that it is ridiculous in many games or settings that the spells and the items are purely combat related, and when a GM handwaves and says that he just assumes they exist, he is taking the easy way out.  I pretty much aim for a 33/33/34% distribution of spells and items that are mundane/social/combat.

Quote from: Sommerjon;5981471e dmg pg116
"a player character must be at least an 11th level high priest, an archdruid, a 12th level wizard or an 11th level illusionist in order to manufacture magic items...."

Ah, I see what you mean now.

QuoteEven as a 14yr old kid this made no sense.
Where are the items that make life easier?  Like plows that move through the earth easily?  Or saws that cut stone as easily as wood?  Or containers that keep food fresh as the day they were picked?  Or wheel-barrels that hold more than they should.   Or baskets that weigh next to nothing even when loaded with heavy items? And on and on.  These things are not there.  Because magic in D&D is 90% combat related only.

It's a fair point; I would say in 3.x magic is 90% combat related, but certainly 1st and 2nd edition weren't overflowing with the quotidian magic.  I would say rather 90% of the magic in AD&D was adventuring related, but in the final analysis, that obviously doesn't contradict your point.

I would probably point to the same reason that modern working class folks don't have budget priced BMW vehicles to drive and Rollex doesn't have a 'value-priced' line of watches.  Only moreso, as peasants in a pseudo-medieval society would be considered 2nd class citizens at best, and so wouldn't even be remotely considered for ease of labour devices.  Most of these fantasy campaigns are socially on the cusp of the Renaissance, which means there is usually a thriving merchant/middle class, who probably could afford some similar items.  Now you have to draw another artificial line; why can clerics and magic users crank out dozens of cloths of cleanliness or baskets of holding per month but only one or two +2 swords in a year?  What makes that magic so much more difficult to imbue than a strip of linen or crudely formed stick-basket?

It could very well be that the artificial rarity you cite is partially to avoid having a 'magic item factory' of the more mundane items, which would only lead to that same factory cranking out more powerful items as well, once the players got wind of it.

Quote from: Mr. GC;5981941: Hi Welcome

The predictable opening when you have shit yourself and don't have an actual response to make.

Quote2: For all your sperging about Diablo it has more of a story than your "storygames" despite having almost no story whatsoever. This is because stories need conflict to exist, and conflict will result in them gimps getting swept so either you have a story that ends halfway through the prologue or that never even begins. Meanwhile the minimalistic, bad story of Diablo is at least complete.

Protip:  I'm not particularly fond of "storygames".

But clearly we have discovered why you hide your shitty understanding of table top games behind whiny number-twatting; you only play computer RPGs, and somehow think table top games adhere to the same play style.

The 'bad story of Diablo is at least complete'?  You are a gold mine of utterly moronic posts that just keeps on giving.

Quote3: I was talking about D&D. In D&D you are expected to spend your resources on character effectiveness because that is what matters, not your goddamned magical tea.

We have already established that you shouldn't be talking about D&D, because you haven't the faintest notion of what it entails or how it is played, having never done so yourself.  The posts you have on this thread alone show you are unaware of how or why magic shops should exist or not or what 'currency' is and how it is used, let alone the larger economy that would support the existence of a magic item shop.

QuoteBecause see, when your job demands competence you step it up or step on out.

I can state with a high degree of certainty that you are unfamiliar with both a job and any degree of competence in any endeavours.

QuoteNumbers twat? You see numbers and pussy the fuck out, because you know you auto lose the instant you cannot bribe/bully/bullshit the DM for victory.

And hoping the DM likes you as a person because of how you arrange numbers on your character sheet isn't a kind of bribe.  :rolleyes:   "Please say I am one of the cool kids, DM!  I put all my skill points in the ones you think are awesome!"  Perhaps one day you will learn how to play RPGs at a real table, instead of just playing Diablo on God mode and faking it.

QuoteYou have almost 9,000 posts and every single one of them are completely useless.

You haven't read 9,000 pages in your entire life, let alone a substantial number of my posts.  Everything you say is demonstrably wrong, because just in the last couple of months, pretty much everyone here and at TGD have actually demonstrated how you are almost always hilariously and diametrically wrong; those few occasions where someone didn't is because of Wolfgang Paulli's assessment:  you aren't even wrong.

QuoteShow me one time, one post where you have made a statement of value. I'll wait, but not hold my breath.

No, please, do hold your breath, it would do us all a favour.

QuoteNow blow on out of this thread.

Guess what, internet tough guy?  You don't get to make that call.  You just get to sit there streaming tears of impotent rage because everyone here makes you feel small in the pants all the time, unlike the junior high kids that hang on every moronic syllable that dribbles from your shit-stained lips because they are about the only people with less life experience than you.

Go back to Diablo, number-twat, you can't possibly enjoy being made the laughingstock on every forum you visit.

Quote from: StormBringer;598293Protip:  I'm not particularly fond of "storygames".

So you fail at numbers and fail at stories... is there anything you do not fail at? Actually nevermind, I already know the answer.

QuoteBut clearly we have discovered why you hide your shitty understanding of table top games behind whiny number-twatting; you only play computer RPGs, and somehow think table top games adhere to the same play style.

Show us on the doll where the optimizers ball busted you. Oh wait, you don't have any.

QuoteThe 'bad story of Diablo is at least complete'?  You are a gold mine of utterly moronic posts that just keeps on giving.

Is a story in which your gimps get facerolled on page 3 complete? Only in the technical sense.

But then, am I really surprised a RPGSiter fails at reading comprehension?

QuoteAnd hoping the DM likes you as a person because of how you arrange numbers on your character sheet isn't a kind of bribe.  :rolleyes:   "Please say I am one of the cool kids, DM!  I put all my skill points in the ones you think are awesome!"  Perhaps one day you will learn how to play RPGs at a real table, instead of just playing Diablo on God mode and faking it.

Or ya know, you could survive 5 minutes without a DM cock down your throat. Put down the barrel.

QuoteYou haven't read 9,000 pages in your entire life, let alone a substantial number of my posts.  Everything you say is demonstrably wrong, because just in the last couple of months, pretty much everyone here and at TGD have actually demonstrated how you are almost always hilariously and diametrically wrong; those few occasions where someone didn't is because of Wolfgang Paulli's assessment:  you aren't even wrong.

Only in your delusional mind.

What actually happened was I bitch slapped those basket weavers every time they mouthed off... and as for TGD, they got very boring and repetitive so I just suicided my account because I didn't give a fuck.

QuoteGuess what, internet tough guy?  You don't get to make that call.  You just get to sit there streaming tears of impotent rage because everyone here makes you feel small in the pants all the time, unlike the junior high kids that hang on every moronic syllable that dribbles from your shit-stained lips because they are about the only people with less life experience than you.

Go back to Diablo, number-twat, you can't possibly enjoy being made the laughingstock on every forum you visit.

If by that you mean having many lulz at all the fuckwits, and sharing the laughs with various others, yeah I'll keep doing that. I'll keep kicking you basket weaver bitches all over the field like I'm in a World Cup soccer match and the fans will literally kill me if I don't score this fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But when you're done being a soccer ball and are ready to be an actual person, do let me know. I prefer intelligent conversations to beating on idiots.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598297If by that you mean having many lulz at all the fuckwits, and sharing the laughs with various others, yeah I'll keep doing that. I'll keep kicking you basket weaver bitches all over the field like I'm in a World Cup soccer match and the fans will literally kill me if I don't score this fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's mildly amusing when you lose your shit and pretend to wear big boy pants, but you are just boring overall anymore, and that is unacceptable in a junior high troll.  As I mentioned before, you haven't the vaguest concept of 'competent'.  It's pretty clear you can only switch numbers around on a character sheet until the DM pats you on the head and you wet yourself.  You can barely string a coherent sentence together without peppering 'lulz' 'lol at' and other pre-adolescent texting phrases throughout, then trip all over yourself with the internet tough guy routine while everyone points and laughs.

You can't possibly have even one iota of dignity when all you can manage is shitting yourself and screaming "Look at me!" while everyone tries to avert their eyes out of embarrassment for your condition.

Jesus, go read a book or something.

Quote from: StormBringer;598310Herpaderp.

Translated. Trollface.gif

Quote from: StormBringer;598310It's mildly amusing when you lose your shit and pretend to wear big boy pants, but you are just boring overall anymore, and that is unacceptable in a junior high troll.  As I mentioned before, you haven't the vaguest concept of 'competent'.  It's pretty clear you can only switch numbers around on a character sheet until the DM pats you on the head and you wet yourself.  You can barely string a coherent sentence together without peppering 'lulz' 'lol at' and other pre-adolescent texting phrases throughout, then trip all over yourself with the internet tough guy routine while everyone points and laughs.

You can't possibly have even one iota of dignity when all you can manage is shitting yourself and screaming "Look at me!" while everyone tries to avert their eyes out of embarrassment for your condition.

Jesus, go read a book or something.

If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598327If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Good idea, I should have followed this advice earlier.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598327If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Yeah, got it on IL too and you are spoiling it! :D

Quote from: Imperator;598370Yeah, got it on IL too and you are spoiling it! :D

Alright, alright!  I get the damn point!

:)

EDIT:  RationalWiki to the rescue!  I discovered the major problem:  Those rejects are fractally wrong (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fractal_wrongness) about everything.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

Can you please point to specific posts on this thread where you can show that the "basketweavers" started this debate again on this thread? Because otherwise, it seems to be YOU who are doing the thread derailing.

QuoteFact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

My posts about my Albion game pretty much disprove that.

QuoteIt also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

WTF game are you talking about that? This is certainly not the case in my Albion game (run with LotFP), nor with my Arrows of Indra game. Its not the case with AD&D 1e, RC D&D, 2e, or OD&D, as well as most OSR games.

Your very limited understanding of what can be played as "D&D" is showing again.

Oh, and I wasn't kidding about those examples from the thread; its very much in your best interest to back up the argument that you've somehow been "baited" into coming on here and trying to make this into yet another "basketweavers vs. denners" thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598416Can you please point to specific posts on this thread where you can show that the "basketweavers" started this debate again on this thread? Because otherwise, it seems to be YOU who are doing the thread derailing.

Sure. I said something, people were content to ignore it, which was fine since I didn't care all that much. Then this clown shows back up and starts it up again:

Quote from: TristramEvans;597386Sure, ecause why would a character ever need to eat, pay for a room at an inn, hire assistants, bribe someone for information, pay for transportation, or buy clothes?

It's really annoying when all that roleplaying crap gets in the way of figuring out to-hit bonuses huh?

His post, in addition to starting up this bullshit again was entirely irrelevant because it's like expecting the cost of vending machines to put a significant dent in a working professional's paycheck.

QuoteWTF game are you talking about that? This is certainly not the case in my Albion game (run with LotFP), nor with my Arrows of Indra game. Its not the case with AD&D 1e, RC D&D, 2e, or OD&D, as well as most OSR games.

Your very limited understanding of what can be played as "D&D" is showing again.

Oh, and I wasn't kidding about those examples from the thread; its very much in your best interest to back up the argument that you've somehow been "baited" into coming on here and trying to make this into yet another "basketweavers vs. denners" thread.

RPGPundit

It's true of all editions of D&D, which is the only game that actually matters seeing as it's the only one with any decent player base.

In 3.5 it is very explicit. In earlier editions it doesn't spell it out for you, but at the same time it puts enemies that are completely invulnerable to your weapons if they are not tall enough to hit them, and also sets up accuracy such that you need magic armor, etc just to not get hit all the time. I wasn't especially concerned about older editions either, I mention this only for completeness.

And lol basketweavers vs denners. It's never been about that. Because see, the denners are basketweavers, and if you are labeling me in the same category as them you're doing it wrong.

It has however been basket weavers vs me.

That being said, just because you can point to some systems with no depth and say they aren't magic item based doesn't mean... anything really.

Sort of on this topic is how often PCs commision items to be made for them?  Magical ones, obviously.

I had one of those, "I am doing it right" moments when my PCs started commisioning magical items more. This goes back some 10 years ago, maybe 11.   It was important to me for a few reasons.

First off, I mentined earlier that the frequency distribution was supposed to set up so that guilds and schools might have potions and scrolls and lesser misc. items available, but due to the way that magic and society mix, weapons and combat magic items are a bit more rare and people tend to keep them.  And even medium power stuff is very, very rare.  

Secondly, the magic and item creation systems, at least the basics, are pretty well established and known by the players.  Having the right raw materials helps, and pouring magic into an item often makes it better, but any really good stuff is the spell charges put into an item.
Crystal Decanter of Air (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/54401469/Crystal%20Decanter%20of%20Air)...an example.

Thirdly, magic items are actually difficult to sell directly for money, even to those guilds and organizations with the wherewithal to purchase them.  (A notable exception is the Collegium Arcana (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/51990358/Collegium%20Arcana-Guild%20History), who most of the PCs don't get along with).  So when the group finds an item they want to sell, 75% of the time or more they end up bartering, at least to some level.

So right now, my Igbarians are all in an adventure, but 75% of them have artificed items being made for them in Igbar right now.

So, in comparison to the 'the Magic Shop' in the OP, how often do your PCs  actually commision items to be made?  How does it fit, and if you don't use it a lot, is there a reason you don't or do you think you should use it more?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261well, no.
Yes, D&D magic is 80-90% combat related.  But that is not what makes magic item creation hard or easy.

That is up to the determination of the GM as to the type of game and setting they want to create.  Pure and simple.

Perhaps.   I wonder how many people were influenced by the exampl of old school games?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261D&D, like any game, and like mine, determined what type of rarity and magic system they wanted.   Just because something has utility does not make it easy to do or create.  If a GM wants to create a world where magic items are readily available and easy to make and common, that is still a GM choice and pretty easy to implement, though it might lose some of the thrill of discovery.

Why would it lose some of the thrill?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261Now, as to your unrelated point, I agree that it is ridiculous in many games or settings that the spells and the items are purely combat related, and when a GM handwaves and says that he just assumes they exist, he is taking the easy way out.  I pretty much aim for a 33/33/34% distribution of spells and items that are mundane/social/combat.

No this a related point.

Quote from: StormBringer;598289Ah, I see what you mean now.


It's a fair point; I would say in 3.x magic is 90% combat related, but certainly 1st and 2nd edition weren't overflowing with the quotidian magic.  I would say rather 90% of the magic in AD&D was adventuring related, but in the final analysis, that obviously doesn't contradict your point.

I would probably point to the same reason that modern working class folks don't have budget priced BMW vehicles to drive and Rollex doesn't have a 'value-priced' line of watches.  Only moreso, as peasants in a pseudo-medieval society would be considered 2nd class citizens at best, and so wouldn't even be remotely considered for ease of labour devices.  Most of these fantasy campaigns are socially on the cusp of the Renaissance, which means there is usually a thriving merchant/middle class, who probably could afford some similar items.  Now you have to draw another artificial line; why can clerics and magic users crank out dozens of cloths of cleanliness or baskets of holding per month but only one or two +2 swords in a year?  What makes that magic so much more difficult to imbue than a strip of linen or crudely formed stick-basket?

It could very well be that the artificial rarity you cite is partially to avoid having a 'magic item factory' of the more mundane items, which would only lead to that same factory cranking out more powerful items as well, once the players got wind of it.

Common magic items are common because of the 'power' needed to create them isn't very high.  The rarity of items is still there, because PCs want specific items that take more 'power' to create.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598462Sure. I said something, people were content to ignore it, which was fine since I didn't care all that much. Then this clown shows back up and starts it up again:

Sorry, no, you started it up again with your post here:

QuoteI'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

This is blatant baiting for a "denners vs. basketweavers" fight, and thread disruption.  That you then turn around and claim that people responding to your absurd statements are somehow attacks on your person is absolute bullshit.

QuoteIt's true of all editions of D&D, which is the only game that actually matters seeing as it's the only one with any decent player base.

You clearly have no idea what any editions of D&D before 3rd are like. You don't get to have a magic shop in any pre-3e game as default.

QuoteIn 3.5 it is very explicit. In earlier editions it doesn't spell it out for you, but at the same time it puts enemies that are completely invulnerable to your weapons if they are not tall enough to hit them, and also sets up accuracy such that you need magic armor, etc just to not get hit all the time.

That's true. But you're not expected to go buy these with gold; you're expected to GO ADVENTURING FOR THEM.

QuoteI wasn't especially concerned about older editions either, I mention this only for completeness.

If you were, you might be less of a complete twat.

QuoteAnd lol basketweavers vs denners. It's never been about that. Because see, the denners are basketweavers, and if you are labeling me in the same category as them you're doing it wrong.

It has however been basket weavers vs me.

Right. Well, that perspective, that apparently its you alone and everyone else in the world is wrong, makes this all much clearer.
You are disrupting this forum. I made sure to hold back and give you ample time to either disprove the people who wanted you banned (including some of my own mods) or to hang yourself with.
Here, you've clearly chosen to hang yourself. You have no interest in doing anything on this forum other than going into threads to intentionally derail them toward a fight with the people you disagree with, which is apparently every other gamer on earth.
So this is nothing against you specifically, you don't matter to me enough. Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598496So this is nothing against you specifically, you don't matter to me enough. Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit

:hatsoff:

After all, the guy didn't play roleplaying games. This is not the forum for him.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598479So, in comparison to the 'the Magic Shop' in the OP, how often do your PCs  actually commision items to be made?  How does it fit, and if you don't use it a lot, is there a reason you don't or do you think you should use it more?

Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

Quote from: The Traveller;598505Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

That last one is a strange and quirky take.  Not bad, just very different.

And the term 'Keeping magic magical' is possibly a keeper.

Not much has been made in this thread about the differences between new and old school

Older D&D assumes an essentially post-apocalyptic world; whatever previous cultures existed, magic was more common, and these things show up in hoards under ground with quite a bit of frequency.  But they're a bitch to make in the modern day.

It reinforces the viewpoint of some of the posters, Melan and Amacris come to mind, that adventurers "*might* sell their surplus, but the items would be auctioned, found in curio shops or collector's halls, or become property of the local nobility - all the kinds of things that might happen to relics or art pieces.  They wouldn't end up in the local pawn shop.

This problem of buying, selling, crafting, and commoditizing magic items only seems like an artifact of recent editions, where the world is much more 'high fantasy' and 'high magic' and the ability to craft items is ubiquitous in the setting.

I tend to be partial to the ACKS approach, and also like the analogy to reselling jewelry and the huge mark ups.  If the players were committed to running a magic business and thought that was more fun than actual adventures, I'd probably hand in my DMing card.

Quote from: The Traveller;598505Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

Isn't that for the players and not the PCs?  Would magic to the denizens really be all that magical?

Quote from: The Traveller;598505More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

Earthdawn does this and it's one of the things I like most about the game.  There are also downsides to letting that sword that killed X  become magical.  That sword is now part of that person and if that person is still around and has lost that sword, that sword can be used against him.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598522Isn't that for the players and not the PCs?  Would magic to the denizens really be all that magical?

It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2557/roleplaying-games/putting-the-magic-in-magic-items) -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

Will there be cake?

This is a joyous day!

Quote from: Beedo;598519Older D&D assumes an essentially post-apocalyptic world; whatever previous cultures existed, magic was more common, and these things show up in hoards under ground with quite a bit of frequency.  But they're a bitch to make in the modern day.

So, older D&D is...Adventure Time?

Quote from: TristramEvans;598569So, older D&D is...Adventure Time?

Pfffttt!  Youngster with your newfangled cartoon reference.


More like Thundarr the Barbarian   ;)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;598562It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2557/roleplaying-games/putting-the-magic-in-magic-items) -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

Yes, that is the point I have been trying to make.    The frequency distribution of magic on a graph with the power level of said magic can actually ber plotted on a graph, and is in the hands of the GM.  If the GM sets up a situation (especially set up with the right mechanics to match the setting) where magic is somewhat rare and wonderful, it will be rare and wonderful to the PCs as well as the other denizens in the world.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;598562It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2557/roleplaying-games/putting-the-magic-in-magic-items) -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

D&D implied setting has magic as common.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598496Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit

Damn dude, took you long enough.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598487Common magic items are common because of the 'power' needed to create them isn't very high.  The rarity of items is still there, because PCs want specific items that take more 'power' to create.

No, I get that.  I am just seeing the table dynamic that some percentage of gamers will get fussy because they have packs full of firetwigs and lightstones for convenience of plot or whatever, but a +1 sword is a borderline artefact.  Is it a large percentage?  I dunno, it could be high enough to be a fairly common nuisance complaint, but I certainly don't think it will approach 100% or anything.  A firm hand and non-negotiable explanation at the start will be critical.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598615D&D implied setting has magic as common.

Depends on which version.  The earlier versions were actually pretty slim on the magic items, regardless of what the modules had in them.  Proper treasure placement using guidelines in the DMG and MM would lead to magic being on the rare side more than abundant.

Quote from: Beedo;598519Not much has been made in this thread about the differences between new and old school

Challenge accepted.

Quote from: Bill;598566Will there be cake?

The cake is a lie.

Quote from: StormBringer;598765No, I get that.  I am just seeing the table dynamic that some percentage of gamers will get fussy because they have packs full of firetwigs and lightstones for convenience of plot or whatever, but a +1 sword is a borderline artefact.  Is it a large percentage?  I dunno, it could be high enough to be a fairly common nuisance complaint, but I certainly don't think it will approach 100% or anything.  A firm hand and non-negotiable explanation at the start will be critical.

That's a problem with random treasure tables.

Quote from: StormBringer;598765Depends on which version.  The earlier versions were actually pretty slim on the magic items, regardless of what the modules had in them.  Proper treasure placement using guidelines in the DMG and MM would lead to magic being on the rare side more than abundant.

They were?
Treasure chart for magic items in MM1
A. Any 3: 30%
B. Sword, armor, or misc. weapon: 10%
C. Any 2: 10%
D. Any 2 plus 1 potion: 15%
E. Any 3 plus I scroll: 25%
F. Any 3 except swords or misc. weapons, plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 30%
G. Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%
H. Any 4 plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 15%
I.  Any 1: 15%
S. 2-8 potions: 40%
T. 1-4 scrolls: 50%
U. 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%
V. 2 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 85%
W. 1 map: 55%
X. 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%
Y. nil
Z. Any 3 magic: 50%

You add that up and it's around 36% on average.  I don't see how that makes magic items rare.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598771That's a problem with random treasure tables.


They were?
Treasure chart for magic items in MM1
A. Any 3: 30%
B. Sword, armor, or misc. weapon: 10%
C. Any 2: 10%
D. Any 2 plus 1 potion: 15%
E. Any 3 plus I scroll: 25%
F. Any 3 except swords or misc. weapons, plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 30%
G. Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%
H. Any 4 plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 15%
I.  Any 1: 15%
S. 2-8 potions: 40%
T. 1-4 scrolls: 50%
U. 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%
V. 2 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 85%
W. 1 map: 55%
X. 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%
Y. nil
Z. Any 3 magic: 50%

You add that up and it's around 36% on average.  I don't see how that makes magic items rare.

You forgot to add in all the 0% for Types J, K, L, M, N, O, P and Q.  It is closer to 25% on average to find a single magic item.  Every four adventures, then, the entire party can be expected to find one magic item.  Hardly overwhelming, and that assumes the party defeats one creature with each Treasure Type in those four adventures.  The vast majority of creatures encountered will have Treasure Types J-Q, and another percentage in addition will have Treasure Type Nil.  At 1st through maybe 4th or 5th level, you will be generally fighting humanoid/goblinoid types, where your odds for getting magical treasure are 0%.

If you want to say that the odds for getting a magic item from creatures that actually have magic items averages 36%, that is somewhat more accurate, but those creatures will generally fall in the 'uncommon' or 'rare' encounter frequencies; you will only see them 5% or 10% of the time.  Roughly, you might average a single magic item 10% of the time.

Hardly an overburdened, Monty Haul level of magic items.

Ehhh also most of the big treasure types (A-H) are found in big wilderness lairs or are held by especially dangerous monsters. H is nearly exclusive to dragons if I've got my head on straight at the moment.

Then, there's the skew towards expendable items in the tables once you do determine an item is present.

Quote from: Imp;598788Ehhh also most of the big treasure types (A-H) are found in big wilderness lairs or are held by especially dangerous monsters. H is nearly exclusive to dragons if I've got my head on straight at the moment.

Then, there's the skew towards expendable items in the tables once you do determine an item is present.

Exactly.  It's a bit late for me to get into all the numbers, but I may still tomorrow.  It's essentially like Uncle Gary explains in the DMG:  fair odds of getting armour or a weapon, decent odds of getting something miscellaneous, and pretty good odds of getting potions, scrolls or wands.

Where I think D&D really could do better with magic items is with 'attunement' or 'activation'.  

Right now, the assumption is you kill someone, you take their stuff, you use it.  If you get lots of stuff, you end up with 'extras' and you have to find something to do with them.  Either sell them off to buy what you really want, or equip hundreds of followers; what have you.  

But imagine if you could give someone an Excalibur type weapon and the PC could choose to use it, but only by activating it first.

Similarly to the way that an artifact has a 'destruction condition', each magic item could have an 'attunement condition'.  So, for example, you find a ring of invisibility and to activate it, you have to wear the ring during the rising of the next new moon.  Suddenly you don't have people playing 'magic-item-swap'...  Some items could have some pretty unpleasant conditions.  The BBEG is using a +4 sword?  Sure, you can take it and use it, but first you have to wield it to slay 12 innocent virgins.  Your PCs still want to use it?

Hoards, also...

75% of the time when my PCs find something magic, it is being used by the owner, and used against them first.

Quote from: LordVreeg;59882275% of the time when my PCs find something magic, it is being used by the owner, and used against them first.

Yup.

It's why my groups very rarely get their hands on potions or scrolls...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;598817Where I think D&D really could do better with magic items is with 'attunement' or 'activation'.  

Right now, the assumption is you kill someone, you take their stuff, you use it.  If you get lots of stuff, you end up with 'extras' and you have to find something to do with them.  Either sell them off to buy what you really want, or equip hundreds of followers; what have you.  

But imagine if you could give someone an Excalibur type weapon and the PC could choose to use it, but only by activating it first.

Similarly to the way that an artifact has a 'destruction condition', each magic item could have an 'attunement condition'.  So, for example, you find a ring of invisibility and to activate it, you have to wear the ring during the rising of the next new moon.  Suddenly you don't have people playing 'magic-item-swap'...  Some items could have some pretty unpleasant conditions.  The BBEG is using a +4 sword?  Sure, you can take it and use it, but first you have to wield it to slay 12 innocent virgins.  Your PCs still want to use it?

Activation, like learning magic words and such, is underutilized in games. Even outside of any potential magical effects, it's in-genre. You don't know if your oil lamp has a genie until you do something with it (rub the lamp, say a command word, or whatever).

The other thing I'd like to see used more often is intelligent and/or willful magic items. If more items had something in common with Stormbringer or the one ring, I think that would bring a bit of the sense of wonder back. Even before accounting for the nature of their power or whether they were common.

There's rules for this stuff, but for whatever reason they don't get used much IME. I'm sort of wondering why that is now.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;598562More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort.

Oddly enough, players in my experience seem to place more value on non-magical +1, +2 and +3 swords than on minor magical gewgaws. Everyone appreciates a quality tool. 19 of them aren't a burden, they are an arsenal. Your notes on enhancing the flavour of arcana are along the right lines, but I wouldn't make every mechanical advantage magical in nature.

I am a sucker for magical trinkets. The more unpredictable the result the more they interest me.

I thought D&D was the place the weird and wild magic went on.  Magic shops?  Common as hell on Oerth.  In game terms, in some places they are absolutely essential.

Most D&D realms are like this, but there are plenty of other settings where this woudn't be right, such as Warhammer's Old World.

Hey!  I just thought up a new TV series!  Hell on Oerth!  It's about the building of a railway from Greyhawk to Dyvers, and the Suel immigrants the Circle of Eight pay a crap wage to build it and freed slaves from the Pomarj.

Quote from: TristramEvans;598569So, older D&D is...Adventure Time?

From what I've heard, that show was influenced by D&D games.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;598744Damn dude, took you long enough.

Silly me, I want to promote free speech.  I didn't ban the guy for what he thinks about RPGs; I banned him because it was pretty clear he didn't give a fuck about disrupting the site in order to push forward a conflict based on what he thinks.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598962From what I've heard, that show was influenced by D&D games.

RPGPundit

It very much is, and has D&D references in it all over the place.


"I cast my magic missiles!"

"The Flame Princess really isn't all that bad."
"So you mean, like Chaotic-neutral?"

Quote from: RPGPundit;598963Silly me, I want to promote free speech.  I didn't ban the guy for what he thinks about RPGs; I banned him because it was pretty clear he didn't give a fuck about disrupting the site in order to push forward a conflict based on what he thinks.

RPGPundit

Anyone I have placed on Ignore, you eventually Ban, as I am sure you can see.  You did very well, in my eyes, to try to allow as much rope as possible here.  I sometimes see that the only real sin here is lack of appreciation of the other posters time and legitimacy.

Quote from: beejazz;598901Activation, like learning magic words and such, is underutilized in games. Even outside of any potential magical effects, it's in-genre. You don't know if your oil lamp has a genie until you do something with it (rub the lamp, say a command word, or whatever).

The other thing I'd like to see used more often is intelligent and/or willful magic items. If more items had something in common with Stormbringer or the one ring, I think that would bring a bit of the sense of wonder back. Even before accounting for the nature of their power or whether they were common.

There's rules for this stuff, but for whatever reason they don't get used much IME. I'm sort of wondering why that is now.

I do have a number of items that are special when a PC gets them, but can be 'attuned' for better effect.  Took my PCs a while to learn and realize....

Quote from: Blackhand;598958I thought D&D was the place the weird and wild magic went on.  Magic shops?  Common as hell on Oerth.  In game terms, in some places they are absolutely essential.

Most D&D realms are like this, but there are plenty of other settings where this woudn't be right, such as Warhammer's Old World.

Magic shops are a 3E thing. Here's a quote from Carl Sargent from the introduction to Night Below (a very underrated adventure campaign, btw):

"PCs should never be allowed to buy magical items (who's going to sell them? You think that wizard spent months enchanting a wand of frost just so he could sell it?). There are times, however, when a little trading between PCs and NPCs may be appropriate."

This wasn't in 1979; Sargent wrote this in 1995. And he wasn't some freelancer with a peculiar take on magic in D&D; Sargent was a TSR employee and the principal author of Greyhawk material at the time.

Quote from: Haffrung;599186Magic shops are a 3E thing. Here's a quote from Carl Sargent from the introduction to Night Below (a very underrated adventure campaign, btw):

"PCs should never be allowed to buy magical items (who's going to sell them? You think that wizard spent months enchanting a wand of frost just so he could sell it?). There are times, however, when a little trading between PCs and NPCs may be appropriate."

This wasn't in 1979; Sargent wrote this in 1995. And he wasn't some freelancer with a peculiar take on magic in D&D; Sargent was a TSR employee and the principal author of Greyhawk material at the time.

He might have said that, but that was after the torch was passed.

There's all sorts of magic shops in D&D 1e.  People buy and sell magic items all the time.  In fact, buying and selling magic items are referenced multiple times in the main rulebooks in petty manner that leads one to believe it's pretty much par for course.  There are provisions for this in several published adventures.  At least on Oerth.  

Now, I have read Sargent's opinions on the matter.  I'm fairly certain that was just for the "Night Below" campaign, since there's plenty going around on the surface.  

In either case, magic shops are definitely not a 3e thing.

Maybe after the Greyhawk Wars, there wasn't as much to go around?  Also, the game changed gears.

And anyway...isn't Night Below on Faerun???

Some of us still award Experience Points based on the Gold Piece value of the treasure recovered.  Some of us also still require that Player-Characters seek out training when they level up, which requires paying the trainer a fee usually measured in Gold Pieces.  Fees are also levied for services that cannot done by one's Player-Character, or by members of their party.  For all of these things, as well as some others not mentioned here, coin is convenient and others are not- and that justifies the existence of currency.

1,500 x Current Level per week of training, for AD&D.

That can add up.

Quote from: Blackhand;5992111,500 x Current Level per week of training, for AD&D.

That can add up.

That ain't anything.

Imgaine having to learn dozens of skills and more...
with layers between them... (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955580/General%20Costing%20of%20Skill%20Kits)

Quote from: Blackhand;599200There's all sorts of magic shops in D&D 1e.  People buy and sell magic items all the time.  In fact, buying and selling magic items are referenced multiple times in the main rulebooks in petty manner that leads one to believe it's pretty much par for course.  There are provisions for this in several published adventures.  At least on Oerth.

On what pages are all these things described?

Quote from: StormBringer;599215On what pages are all these things described?

Unsuccessful bait.

There's numerous references in both books in the sections on experience including conversion rules for sold magic items.  Also, Hirelings and NPCs, for buying spells and enchantment services...  Also...whatever.  Do it yourself if you're gonna be snarky.

Opinion on the Magic Shop?

 It was an alright idea when Giles took it over and opened it.

Not sure if he really should've handed it off to Anya or not.

You meant in an RPG setting?


Oops.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Blackhand;599223Unsuccessful bait.

There's numerous references in both books in the sections on experience including conversion rules for sold magic items.  Also, Hirelings and NPCs, for buying spells and enchantment services...  Also...whatever.  Do it yourself if you're gonna be snarky.

Ummmm... No.  I have had to mention this about a billion times recently, but if you want to make a claim, then you are responsible for providing the evidence to support it.

There is approximately one reference for converting gold to xp in regards to the sale of magic items.  That does not imply there are magic shops in any way, shape or form.  If the sale of such items is deemed necessary or desirable, it could very well be that the characters' only recourse is to offer them for sale to a local member of royalty (who may pay well below 'market value' or even confiscate the items!), as no common citizen is permitted to buy or own such things.  The magic item is still sold and the proceeds converted to xp, but not even the hint of a magic item shop is required.

Hirelings and NPCs in particular do not suggest the presence of magic item shops.  Clerics would be associated with a particular faith and assigned to whatever church or temple is in the area.  Magic Users would typically work out of a keep or tower that serves as home, library and research facility.  Neither of these implies spell-casters spend all day casting spells or cranking out magic items to sell at mark up in a retail magic shop.

QuoteThere's all sorts of magic shops in D&D 1e.

AD&D is a set of rules, not a specific campaign setting.  Somewhere in that set of rules there has to be a page where this sort of statement could be supported, otherwise you are making false claims.  For example: "In a typical campaign, there will be several stores principally in the domain of purchasing or selling magic items in any reasonably sized town or city" or words substantially to that effect.  Anyone is free to interpret gold piece values for magic items as justification for a magic item shop or a whole franchise of same at their own table.  What you can't do is then go on to cite that as irrefutable evidence that the rules themselves demand the existence of magic item shops.

So, what page in which AD&D 1st edition book says magic item shops unreservedly exist, and they have a high degree of ubiquity?

Quote from: StormBringer;599227DERP

Damn you sure know how to twist words around to make it something you can be mad about.  Just like a woman.

I believe that the rules actually assume the players will be able to buy a lot of magic items and casting of spells that they will need.  Perhaps nothing earth-shattering, but definitely some healing potions and maybe a few +1's.  Later on, +2's.   DMG 103 - 104 gives the hired spellcaster parameter.

I think it's entirely implied by the sections of the main rules I have given you.  Unless you disagree that it stands to reason that when players sell magic items, someone else is also going to do that.  Unless your players live in a total vacuum, it's complete fallacy to say no one else is doing this.  

I believe one magic SHOP is described in the City of Greyhawk (Maldin & Elenderi's).  

Now I'm not saying the DMG should be used as Ye Olde Wizzerdz Magickal Shoppe, ALL THE FUCKING TIME.

Yet this is more of a meta, and though there might be suggestions in passing (like all the other stuff in those 1e books) there is no argument for us to have here.

For me, this time, this game, AD&D 1e Greyhawk is gonna be shitting +1 swords and magic scrolls, with a premium on Raise Dead.

Just look at this analysis on the Temple (http://www.totalbullgrit.com/treasure-and-experience-in-classic-dd-adventures/), in terms of magic items that are gained from it.  

At the top, you'll see the entries for the Moathouse.  This is an insignificant dungeon in the larger scheme of things.  Yet, there's more magic here in this one dungeon than I handed out in the entire WFRP2e game, and a lot of D&D games I've run over the years.

You think your players will just sit on that shit?  What about when it becomes obsolete?

I'd take that shit to a wizzerd.

Quote from: Blackhand;599232Damn you sure know how to twist words around to make it something you can be mad about.  Just like a woman.

And you sure know how to make utterly unsupported claims then shit yourself when pressed for evidence, so shut your fucking cakehole with the bullshit 'the rules assume' and cite some page numbers or stop fucking posting.  

QuoteI think it's entirely implied by the sections of the main rules I have given you.  

No one gives a shit what you think is implied.  You are a complete fucking moron.

One shop in the City of Greyhawk isn't even remotely the same as:

Quote from: Blackhand;599200There's all sorts of magic shops in D&D 1e.  People buy and sell magic items all the time.

Are you going to cite page numbers or put on your big boy pants and admit you totally pooched it on the AD&D magic shop claims?

How many of your posts do you plan on going back and editing, by the way?

Quote from: StormBringer;599235How many of your posts do you plan on going back and editing, by the way?

All of them.

I hate double posting.

You know I keep checking my pants, but I don't seem to have shit myself.  First you wanted an example, now what?  Every single one cited and referenced?

Fuck you.  

Also, you should calm down before your fucking head asplode.

Quote from: Blackhand;599232I believe that the rules actually assume the players will be able to buy a lot of magic items and casting of spells that they will need

Belief belongs in the church. In an argument, if you make a claim you have to support it with actual evidence. "I strongly believe it" is not evidence.

QuoteUnless you disagree that it stands to reason that when players sell magic items, someone else is also going to do that.  Unless your players live in a total vacuum, it's complete fallacy to say no one else is doing this.

Actually, you're wrong. The whole "dungeon economy" is constructed to mimic the local economies of the historic Gold Rushes, only with loot (including magic items) instead of gold. Historically, a prospector would sell the nuggets he finds, and a trader would be buying them; but the reverse did not happen. The trader did not sell other nuggets back to the prospector, but transport them back to civilisation (which, in the original paradigm of D&D's dungeon crawling, is analogous to "outside the area of your adventures"). Same deal with diamond mining these days.

"You can sell it" does NOT necessarily imply "you can also buy it".

I'd like to kinda-sorta side with Blackhand again.

If you have spells for sale, I don't think it's right not to have magic items for sale, too.

I mean, it's like the stupid old joke:

Quote from: stupid old jokeMan: "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

Woman: "Sure."

Man: "What about for one dollar? Would you do it?"

Woman: "A dollar? What sort of woman do you think I am???"

Man: "We've already established you're a whore. Now we're just haggling over price."

Which is to say, if the arcane arts are accessible enough that you can buy a teleport to a distant place, or a finger of death for your business rivals, it seems silly to assume that the same sort of wizard who casts these spells for gold, wouldn't spend his precious time crafting magic items for even more gold.

Which of course brings up another point: magic item prices have to be consistent with spellcasting prices, to justify turning a profit after the time and effort (to say nothing of materials) spent on the item. I suspect the 3e+ by-the-book prices wouldn't cut it, but I'd love to see someone else (since I don't run these sort of magic-heavy games) doing the math.

Quote from: The Butcher;599286I'd like to kinda-sorta side with Blackhand again.

If you have spells for sale, I don't think it's right not to have magic items for sale, too.

I mean, it's like the stupid old joke:



Which is to say, if the arcane arts are accessible enough that you can buy a teleport to a distant place, or a finger of death for your business rivals, it seems silly to assume that the same sort of wizard who casts these spells for gold, wouldn't spend his precious time crafting magic items for even more gold.

Which of course brings up another point: magic item prices have to be consistent with spellcasting prices, to justify turning a profit after the time and effort (to say nothing of materials) spent on the item. I suspect the 3e+ by-the-book prices wouldn't cut it, but I'd love to see someone else (since I don't run these sort of magic-heavy games) doing the math.

It goes back to making sure the rules match the game and setting you want to play.

So part of this conversation deals with the ruleset, and what you've done with it.

I know that back in the day, many games had some version of magic shops.  Almost all the ones I played in did have some version of it back in the T&T and D&D games I played in.  So whether it was inferred in the rules or spread through Osmosis, it was in a great many games I played in and read about.  

Now, I also believe and believed it was a mistake for most games.  There are a few threads about that speak to this, but one of them is a thread about high level and highly lethal.   I remember clearly running my first games (in a galaxy far, far away...) and already dumping the magic shop ideal then. I think I was very tolkien and Moorcock influenced, since even my early games had rare magic, and about 3 times the amount of scrolls, potions, and weaker misc items than any of the random systems produced. And 30-odd years later, this is still the way I set things up.  Creating a potion or a scroll is much easier in my settings, which now is part of the underpinnings of why they are a lot more common.

all I am doing here, to put this in context with the Butcher's comments are that I am haggling over the whore's price.

Quote from: LordVreeg;599297It goes back to making sure the rules match the game and setting you want to play.

So part of this conversation deals with the ruleset, and what you've done with it.

Spot on, as usual. And I think a huge part of becoming a better GM is to read a ruleset and map the consequences of certain rules to the game world, and decide whether you'll like it or whether a houserule is called for.

Quote from: LordVreeg;599297I know that back in the day, many games had some version of magic shops.  Almost all the ones I played in did have some version of it back in the T&T and D&D games I played in.  So whether it was inferred in the rules or spread through Osmosis, it was in a great many games I played in and read about.  

Now, I also believe and believed it was a mistake for most games.  There are a few threads about that speak to this, but one of them is a thread about high level and highly lethal.   I remember clearly running my first games (in a galaxy far, far away...) and already dumping the magic shop ideal then. I think I was very tolkien and Moorcock influenced, since even my early games had rare magic, and about 3 times the amount of scrolls, potions, and weaker misc items than any of the random systems produced. And 30-odd years later, this is still the way I set things up.  Creating a potion or a scroll is much easier in my settings, which now is part of the underpinnings of why they are a lot more common.

all I am doing here, to put this in context with the Butcher's comments are that I am haggling over the whore's price.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "mistake", but this order of prevalence of magic and magic items -- of the sort the engenders wizards-for-sale and magic item department stores -- definitely does come across to me as something that originated in tabletop RPGs and is, as far as I know, absent from the source fic (if anyone knows of pre-D&D fantasy litearture examples, I'd love to know).

Regardless of the existence or absence of a literary precedent, I usually prefer magic to be rare and memorable, with spells gleaned from aging scrolls in a tomb sealed away ages ago under the city, and magic swords sitting on some abomination's hoard in the depths of the earth, or at the hands of a humanoid cheiftain heading a mighty horde on the warpath.

In my D&D games, spellcasting classes can create magic items but it ain't cheap; even equipping half a dozen retainers with a sword +1 is going to be prohibitive, in terms of time and monetary cost. If you want a decent magic sword, you either become BFFs with a really powerful wizard, or you go the usual route of raiding ancient ruins and hoping you'll find one before the monstruous denizens find you.

But as usual, that's just my preferred approach and I'm sure a lot of people are having a blast with magic item stores.

Quote from: StormBringer;599235And you sure know how to make utterly unsupported claims then shit yourself when pressed for evidence, so shut your fucking cakehole with the bullshit 'the rules assume' and cite some page numbers or stop fucking posting.  


No one gives a shit what you think is implied.  You are a complete fucking moron.

I think I'll keep this handy reminder the next time implied comes a calling and you don't have a meltdown.

Quote from: Sommerjon;599316I think I'll keep this handy reminder the next time implied comes a calling and you don't have a meltdown.

Go ahead, if you think you have some kinda 'gotcha' brewing.  Saving for the future to look like an idiot is always a good idea.  Mostly because 'implied' has a context.  You know, not an absolute usage?

AD&D 2e DMG, p.83

Buying Magical Items

"As player characters earn more money and begin facing greater dangers, some of them will begin wondering where they can buy magical items. Using 20th-century, real-world economics, they will figure there must be stores that buy and sell such goods. Naturally they will want to find and patronize such stores. However, no magical stores exist.

Before the DM goes rushing off to create magical item shops, consider the player characters and their behavior. Just how often do player characters sell those potions and scrolls they find? Cash in a sword +1? Unload a horn of blasting or a ring of free action?

More often than not, player characters save such items. Certainly they don't give away one-use items. One can never have too many potions of healing or scrolls with extra spells. Sooner or later the character might run out. Already have a sword +1? Maybe a henchman or hireling could use such a weapon (and develop a greater respect for his master). Give up the only horn of blasting the party has? Not very likely at all.

It is reasonable to assume that if the player characters aren't giving up their goods neither are any non-player characters. And if adventurers aren't selling their finds, then there isn't enough trade in magical items to sustain such a business.

Even if the characters do occasionally sell a magical item, setting up a magic shop is not a good idea. Where is the sense of adventure in going into a store and buying a sword +1? Haggling over the price of a want? Player characters should feel like adventurers, not merchants or greengrocers.

Consider this as well: If a wizard of priest can buy any item he needs, why should he waste time attempting to make the item himself? Magical item research is an important role-playing element in the game, and opening a magic emporium kills it. There is a far different sense of pride on the player's part when using a wand his character has made, or found after perilous adventure, as opposed to one he just bought.

Finally, buying and trading magic presumes a large number of magical items in society. This lessens the DM's control over the whole business. Logically-minded players will point out the inconsistency of a well-stocked magic shop in a campaign otherwise sparse in such rewards."


A pretty strong recommendation to "just say no" to magic shops.
Reasons:
1) NPC behavior would be so strikingly different, and therefore hard to believe, if it behaved so contrarily to PC behavior regarding magic.
1 a) Expectations about PC relationship to henchmen and hirelings appear.
2) Changes game from "adventure!" to "commerce!"
3) Removes impetus for Create Item adventures.
4) DM loses setting control. Also makes adventuring less attractive.

Depending on my setting I agree or disagree with these arguments. However on the whole I find myself not using them because of especially argument #4. Power creep is a dangerous thing to verisimilitude and immersion as events rapidly spiral out of a logical sense of space. And since most players I've met have no interest role-playing in a world so fantastic as to be hallucinatory -- because people need relatable base points to make sense of their surroundings -- I don't usually find "JRPG magic shops in each town!" (and living with its ramifications) a fruitful inclusion.

Blackhand, I'm pretty sure the explicit references to Magic Shops are in Chainmail...

Quote from: Opaopajr;599358AD&D 2e DMG, p.83

Buying Magical Items

"2e Stuff"

Second Edition non-setting specific.  Just sayin'.

Quote from: Opaopajr;599358Reasons:
1) NPC behavior would be so strikingly different, and therefore hard to believe, if it behaved so contrarily to PC behavior regarding magic.
1 a) Expectations about PC relationship to henchmen and hirelings appear.
2) Changes game from "adventure!" to "commerce!"
3) Removes impetus for Create Item adventures.
4) DM loses setting control. Also makes adventuring less attractive.

1) PC behavior would be contrary to NPC behavior only if NPC's wouldn't sell magic.
2) So give them a sword.
3) Only if you can buy everything in the DMG.
4) Refer to 3.
5) Refer to 3.

Also, it should be noted that random treasure also takes setting control away from the DM.

If you have the money to buy ANY magic items at all, you obviously have experience and have been adventuring - and since it costs an arm and a leg, and none of the good stuff is really available unless it's a special deal (usually, if we use the shop in Greyhawk as a yardstick for top of the line magic shops), it puts great impetus on adventuring.

He's got a Staff of the Magi for sale, but wants 800,000 GP for it.  Better get busy.

Quote from: StormBringer;598765Depends on which version.  The earlier versions were actually pretty slim on the magic items, regardless of what the modules had in them.  Proper treasure placement using guidelines in the DMG and MM would lead to magic being on the rare side more than abundant.

Oh, man. The "Placement of Magic Items" section of the 1E DMG is one of the greatest middle-fingers ever given to a fanbase in the history of anything, ever: "Some of you made the mistake of using what I wrote in D&D. You stupid, stupid fuckers. Your campaigns are little more than a joke, something that better DMs jape and ridicule. You should know better than to actually use anything I wrote. I barely even know how to design a game. I'm probably drunk as I'm writing this now."

And he writes that in a system for which the treasure types received, at most, a -5% adjustment for the occurrence of magic items. And the treasure for common monsters like goblins was actually bumped up to include magic items whereas it hadn't included magic items in OD&D.

Quote from: StormBringer;598784You forgot to add in all the 0% for Types J, K, L, M, N, O, P and Q.  It is closer to 25% on average to find a single magic item.  Every four adventures, then, the entire party can be expected to find one magic item.  Hardly overwhelming, and that assumes the party defeats one creature with each Treasure Type in those four adventures.

Wow. That is possibly one of the worst butcherings of statistics I have ever seen. If we rule out the 10% chance for a treasure map instead of a magic item (although the average magic item return from a treasure map is generally high using the tables in the DMG) and the PCs actually did receive one treasure of each type, their expected treasure haul would be:

30% chance of 3 = 0.9 items
10% chance of 1 = 0.1 items
10% chance of 2 = 0.2 items
15% chance of 3 = 0.45 items
25% chance of 4 = 1 item
30% chance of 5 = 1.5 items
35% chance of 5 = 1.75 items
15% chance of 6 = 0.9 items
15% chance of 1 = .15
40% chance of 2d4 = 2 items
50% chance of 1d4 = 1.25 items
70% chance of 6 = 4.2 items
85% chance of 12 = 10.2 items
60% chance of 2 = 1.2 items
50% chance of 3 = 1.5 items

Which would be a grand total of 27.3 items on average, not a 25% chance of 1 item as you claim.

Of course, this entire analysis is facile because the treasure system in AD&D isn't designed to work around the ridiculous distribution of treasure you suggest. It isn't even designed to work with the "kill 1 monster of this type and get its treasure type" in many cases.

QuoteThe vast majority of creatures encountered will have Treasure Types J-Q, and another percentage in addition will have Treasure Type Nil.

This doesn't appear to be true. Here's a breakdown of AD&D monsters by treasure type. (http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2012/08/delving-into-ad-treasure-types-part-ii.html) Although you'll find many of the most common foes in the J-R* treasure range, you'll notice that most of those also appear in other treasure types which yield magic items.

(*R also has a nil chance for magical treasure.)

QuoteAt 1st through maybe 4th or 5th level, you will be generally fighting humanoid/goblinoid types...

Unless you pursue them into a lair. Which, of course, is the focus of most low level adventures. In which case you'll find that most of them are treasure type A, B, C, or D. The expected return, therefore, is at least 26 times higher than the "1 item every 4 adventures" that you claim.

If you use the Random Dungeon Generator from the DMG, on the other hand, magic becomes even more frequent: 2% chance per empty treasure room of 1 item; in rooms with monsters and treasure you get 22.5% chance of 1 item and a 1.5% chance of 2 items. The empty room stuff is mostly irrelevant in terms of statistical occurrence, but you would expect to find 1 magic item every 4 encounters, not once per every 4 adventures.

Quote from: Haffrung;599186This wasn't in 1979; Sargent wrote this in 1995. And he wasn't some freelancer with a peculiar take on magic in D&D; Sargent was a TSR employee and the principal author of Greyhawk material at the time.

This is unsurprising. 2E is actually the one edition of the game which specifically sought to eliminate the magic item shop: Every other edition of the game has listed GP values for the items. And only 2E has a section explicitly telling the DM not to have magic item shops.

Um, the random dungeon generator gives a 3/1300 chance of finding a magic item in an empty room.

EDIT: Sorry Justin, I didn't see "empty treasure room", which would be 5% of the rooms, with a 3% chance of magic items per empty treasure room. So 3/2000 rooms in a random dungeon are empty but have magic items.


With a monster the chance is 3/5 x ( two chances of 3/100) of finding a magic item. I'm going to bed so I'm not going to work out the probability of that occurring.

Regardless, random treasure does include a fair amount of magic items. But with my randomly generated by the book treasure hordes in my D&D megadungeon game, the players tended to have a few magic items but weren't dripping with them.

Although that may be partially due to:
A) PCs with magic items being killed and lost in the dungeon
B) Magic item rich hordes being protected by BAD ASS TPK monsters.

Quote from: Planet Algol;599425EDIT: Sorry Justin, I didn't see "empty treasure room", which would be 5% of the rooms, with a 3% chance of magic items per empty treasure room. So 3/2000 rooms in a random dungeon are empty but have magic items.

No problem. I almost made the opposite mistake when trying to calculate treasure-per-room. And then realized, as you did, that the odds of finding a magic item in an empty room is small enough that it's not really worth worrying about.

QuoteWith a monster the chance is 3/5 x ( two chances of 3/100) of finding a magic item. I'm going to bed so I'm not going to work out the probability of that occurring.

I almost made this mistake, too. The second column of table V.G actually says "Take two rolls on the 'Without Monster' Table, add 10% to the total of each roll" (emphasis added).

So you'd actually get a magic item on a roll of 88-00 (not 98-00).

Which I just realized means I did make a mistake because I calculated the odds as being 12% per roll when it's actually 13% per roll. Doh.

So it's actually a 24.3% of finding one magic item and a 1.7% chance of finding two magic items. Still works out to roughly one magic item for every four encounters. And about 1 in 5 will have a non-consumable magic item.

Given typical play at my OD&D table, I'd be expecting a group to find 1-2 non-consumable magic items per session if I used these stocking guidelines.

Quote from: Blackhand;599390Second Edition non-setting specific.  Just sayin'.

It's also just a recommendation, not holy writ.

Thus the point of me putting it up. It's asking of the GM to think critically about their setting. Some things that seem small end up having critical ramifications. And that's why there's caution being advised.

Quote from: Blackhand;5993901) PC behavior would be contrary to NPC behavior only if NPC's wouldn't sell magic.
2) So give them a sword.
3) Only if you can buy everything in the DMG.
4) Refer to 3.
5) Refer to 3.

A rather circular answer.

To justify this perception you must establish that "people's behavior" would find magic items so plentiful as to find selling them not a big decision. This is determined by GM setting, which explicitly goes back to "setting decisions have consequences." Most people might think "simple problem, simple solution," however these recommendations are asking one to think through these supposedly simple solutions.

Second edition DMG notes that you'd need to have excess supply to warrant such easy commerce. Otherwise a tighter supply would leave people behaving quite reservedly about their magic items, and thus obviate easy commerce. Further, to accept high supply for easy commerce thus means you are now playing an entire setting closer to a Monty Haul style. And as Monty Haul style magic items distribution deal with power issues later -- thus warranting a cautionary section in the DMG as well -- the DMG asks the GM to think very carefully about the magic shop decision.

Because to add a magic shop invites these questions of setting consistency and potential challenges to its control.

Quote from: Blackhand;599390Also, it should be noted that random treasure also takes setting control away from the DM.

That comment sounds to me that you are unfamiliar with how treasure tables work in practice. You are free to take upon the ratios the DMG provides wholesale. But the GM makes the judgment call every step of the way. Yes, even accepting unchanged those ratios wholesale is a GM setting decision.

Besides the GM altering the treasure classes themselves, monsters generally have more than one treasure class in the MM, which in turn can be randomly selected or further tailored to a GM's current need in a locale. This means a GM is responsible for distribution of quality, quantity, and kind of treasures beforehand. A treasure table at the end is merely a stochastic decision tool after the GM has determined the setting relevant treasures.

You can only say you are giving treasure tables setting control if you as a GM deliberate abdicate your job here. It's a valid choice as any, but still is a GM choice. i.e. Perhaps you receive a module and decide to run it cold and unaltered, but be aware incongruent things will happen.

However, just like not all temperate forests will have ALL temperate forest creatures in the MM, as too would any creature or lair have any or all treasure listed on tables. What goes into the Random Table is in complete GM setting control. To say otherwise seems to miss the point of what sort of tool the Random Table is, and I'm going to assume you don't really mean that.

Quote from: Blackhand;599390If you have the money to buy ANY magic items at all, you obviously have experience and have been adventuring - and since it costs an arm and a leg, and none of the good stuff is really available unless it's a special deal (usually, if we use the shop in Greyhawk as a yardstick for top of the line magic shops), it puts great impetus on adventuring.

He's got a Staff of the Magi for sale, but wants 800,000 GP for it.  Better get busy.

I don't know how this is relevant to anything, as there are people who are born or fall into wealth and power all the time. Our world is not some utopian meritocracy, and it'd be laughably alien to my players if I ran any setting as one. Sometimes there will be people who just are given fortune and can end up buying their problems away.

In fact, that's one of the other 2e DMG recommendations: to pay attention to the potential of abuse inherent in great wealth or noble privilege.

Would you like me to put that one up as well? :)

Quote from: Opaopajr;599455To justify this perception you must establish that "people's behavior" would find magic items so plentiful as to find selling them not a big decision. This is determined by GM setting, which explicitly goes back to "setting decisions have consequences."

Yeah, and I'm using the City of Greyhawk and The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Quote from: Opaopajr;599455Second edition DMG notes that you'd need to have excess supply to warrant such easy commerce. Otherwise a tighter supply would leave people behaving quite reservedly about their magic items, and thus obviate easy commerce. Further, to accept high supply for easy commerce thus means you are now playing an entire setting closer to a Monty Haul style. And as Monty Haul style magic items distribution deal with power issues later -- thus warranting a cautionary section in the DMG as well -- the DMG asks the GM to think very carefully about the magic shop decision.

Because to add a magic shop invites these questions of setting consistency and potential challenges to its control.

Except when there is excess supply, and setting specific examples of such commerce.  Perhaps "basic" Greyhawk is what you'd consider "Monty Haul"?

Quote from: Opaopajr;599455That comment sounds to me that you are unfamiliar with how treasure tables work in practice.

You can only say you are giving treasure tables setting control if you as a GM deliberate abdicate your job here. It's a valid choice as any, but still is a GM choice. i.e. Perhaps you receive a module and decide to run it cold and unaltered, but be aware incongruent things will happen.

I've rolled my fair share of them, thanks.  Perhaps more than you, as I seem to regard them as less powerful than you.

So if you roll a great item, you basically don't give it to your players since that might do something to destabilize your game?  I've found that there's no item I can't give them that some other creature can't take away.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction?  How bout that?

You go on to talk about things I'm not sure are connected.  Forests and such.

Quote from: Opaopajr;599455In fact, that's one of the other 2e DMG recommendations: to pay attention to the potential of abuse inherent in great wealth or noble privilege.

Would you like me to put that one up as well? :)

Did you look at the stats on the temple that I linked to?

26,000+ GP in the first adventure.  +1 Plate Mail, buncha other stuff.  Is that Monty Haul?

I don't fucking think so.  

DM's who are really shitty would do well to curb their player's resources until they get a better grasp of what high level play should be.  Hell, until they realize what low level play should be, they should limit what their players have access to.

Yet that is the mark of novice or shitty DM's.

Quote from: StormBringer;599322Go ahead, if you think you have some kinda 'gotcha' brewing.  Saving for the future to look like an idiot is always a good idea.  Mostly because 'implied' has a context.  You know, not an absolute usage?

So you're saying implied is fine as long as you agree with the 'usage', otherwise it's meltdown time.
Good to know.

Quote from: Blackhand;599535Mordenkainen's Disjunction?  How bout that?

MD is not available in the core rules for all editions (it is definitely not in the PHB for either 1st or 4th edition).  It's also a terrible balancing mechanism in 3rd edition as it requires a will save.  Fighters and Rogues (who often rely on magic items to a fairly high degree) are likely to fail will saves that are easy for clerics (and, to a lesser extent, wizards).  So the characters who cast spells and can try and work around the suddent loss of magic items (magic vestment, greater magic weapon, casting fly directly) are the most likely to save.

It is also a ninth level spell.  It requires either a 17th level caster, one heck of an expensive trap or a scroll with a fairly low DC plus decent failure chances.  

Finally, by the time it comes into play (say levels 14+) the characters have already seen an awful lot of magic wealth.  If you put it into the game at lower levels, you really have to explain why it wasn't "Wail of the Bansee" instead (as dead characters yield all sorts of nifty loot).

Mage's Disjunction is actually on my list of poorly thought out spells, but that is another story.

Quote from: Sommerjon;599695So you're saying implied is fine as long as you agree with the 'usage', otherwise it's meltdown time.
Good to know.

Congratulations, you managed to almost exactly define 'context' and explain 'human nature' at the same time.  You have a keen grasp of the obvious.

Just because someone says something is 'implied', that doesn't mean everyone in the universe is required to agree with that.  It doesn't make it irrefutable fact just because someone uttered it, unless you are one of those 'opinions are inviolable' people.

'Implied' isn't some magic word that auto-wins every discussion.  It's just another form of argumentation.  I have a hard time believing you really needed this explained.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;599406Oh, man. The "Placement of Magic Items" section of the 1E DMG is one of the greatest middle-fingers ever given to a fanbase in the history of anything, ever...

I am not ignoring this nor conceding, just a bit busy lately to address the points.  A day or two and I should have something put together.

GC is correct.

In settings where magic (or ultra-technology) is widespread, there should be some way to purchase it. I don't generally like my "shops" to stock items though, much preferring if custom items are made to order. In these, the "shop" tends to have a very small "storefront" (often more of an office to meet and discuss with the item makers) while most of it is more of a lab/workshop.

Quote from: Domina on April 24, 2024, 10:37:41 AMGC is correct.

Who is GC?
Why is he correct?

Quote from: Aglondir on April 24, 2024, 10:40:12 PM

Quote from: Domina on April 24, 2024, 10:37:41 AMGC is correct.

Who is GC?
Why is he correct?

Or, more importantly, why is someone  necro-ing a 12 year-old thread?