What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Personally, I try and customize my treasures to the party.  I wouldn't ever drop something as a Christmas present, but I try to get within a few degrees.  I'm not going to include Ogre Hooks, for example, unless I think they might actually get used.  When it comes time to sell the items, I'd only offer a portion of the value as cash, depending on where they were when they tried to sell it.  As for a shop where you can buy major magic items with cash?  No thanks.  Though I would include a means to commission such items being made.

Same with RIFTS, and black market weapons.  I did similar in Star Wars, too.  Storm Trooper blasters wouldn't resell very well.  I don't recall the exact amount, but I think it was something like 10% of the value.

Necessary. You can call it an actual shop, you can call it a commission based service... whatever flavor text you put on it, there needs to be a way to change useless money or items into useful items and while purchasing works best (due to barter being rather archaic) it at least works.

This is especially true if you use any form of random treasure tables as opposed to enemies having gear that is useful to them... at which point you can get useful gear by killing enemies with similar talent sets as yourself (such as swords, spellbooks, whatever you need).

If you're just stuck lugging junk around you can't do anything worthwhile with, so very many problems are created with the game. Conversely, being able to have the exact items desired... doesn't fix class balance problems, but it does blunt them a fair bit. A melee that can fly on their own power is significantly more likely to be relevant than one that cannot, and so forth.

This also directly plays into excitement. Finding a large amount of gold and knowing that translates into something useful? Exciting. Finding a large amount of gold and knowing it might as well be rocks for all the practical use you can put it to? Boring.

Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593134Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

I see what you did there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;593137I see what you did there.

Really? What did I do there? No really, I know what I did, but I have the feeling you're getting at something else.

I run a very low magic fantasy campaign, so no, the idea of a magic shop would be absurd. I have five core players and they have about 6 permanent magic items between them (not counting potions). In fact, when I publish adventures I find I have to add in magic items to the important NPCs because that's what's expected as the norm.

If I had a high fantasy game where even your local innkeeper knew a little cantrip to keep the beer cold, then yes, I would have "magic shops", likely run by a wizard's guild with all sorts of magical safeguards and protections in place.

Pete

The concept of a "magic shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "magic shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

In your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

Hate em. Too much like a FF videogame. They stop being "magical" and are just some mundane weapons for the players to collect like XP. If I put a magical item in the game it always has a history, a personality, and consequences as well as advantages in its use. (Unless its Call of Cthulhu, then 9 times out of 10 the players should run away from it as quick as possible).

QuoteIn your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Big Friendly Giants?

I let characters buy and sell magic equipment, but these days I try not to have shops that sell stuff. PCs who are looking for something, or who want to sell something, can search around (Gather Information checks or whatever) to track down buyers or sellers. The exception being potions and scrolls, which alchemists or temples will have stocks of.

Never use them, although I've got Ptolus in the queue and they exist in that setting. I generally prefer much lower magic worlds, and a bunch of expensive, potent items in one spot like that would be nothing but a giant bullseye painted on the back of the proprietor.

Isn't this another "it depends on the campaign" sort of thing? Certainly it has a profound effect on the culture of the world if stuff like that is available all that want it for mere money. It's impossible to simulate a medieval society with what is essentially modern technology.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126In your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

In our long running Top Secret campaign, one of the motivations the characters had for starting their own independent spy agency was that we'd be the ones telling others they couldn't have the high tech, expensive equipment, instead of others telling us.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593134Note that the keyword is practical use. Purchasing things that are not useful, such as strongholds is nothing to get excited about. Purchasing things that are actually liabilities, such as land even less so.

Out of curiosity, since I don't really bother with fantasy games, why would purchasing land be a liability?  That seems kind of back-asswards.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593139Really? What did I do there? No really, I know what I did, but I have the feeling you're getting at something else.

In earlier editions the concept of a magic shop really wasn't there, but the systems for purchasing land and building strongholds were pretty robust and were kind of an assumed part of the "endgame".

So basically, just taking a sideswipe at older editions looked like.

No magic shops.  Hate the idea, even if someone comes up with a reasonable rationale for one.

Magic items can be bought, sold and traded, but it's a shadowy, grey or black market type situation like antiquities or gun-running.

Quote from: CRKrueger;593156In earlier editions the concept of a magic shop really wasn't there, but the systems for purchasing land and building strongholds were pretty robust and were kind of an assumed part of the "endgame".

So basically, just taking a sideswipe at older editions looked like.

Actually, no.

I've talked about this in a PM with a user here, but it's worth mentioning out in the open. Attacker advantage is a real thing. Basically, whoever is attacking has the advantage because unlike the real world, things like "defensible positions" either don't mean anything against any threats that matter, or their effect is more than overshadowed by the sheer advantage that comes from being the aggressor. Namely, buffs.

The defender can only have passive buffs - anything they can maintain all day, or effectively all day.

Anyone aware that an attack will take place can have active buffs - stuff you cannot sustain constantly, and therefore you must know you need it to have it. The attacking side is of course aware of their intentions to attack. The defenders are not necessarily aware of this, and cannot maintain eternal vigilance (unless they're undead or something).

So, because the attacker can get ready, and attack at a time of their choosing, they have a massive advantage over the defending side, who is forced to either fight at a massive disadvantage, or spend time evening the odds while getting killed... which is also a massive disadvantage.

Ordinarily, attacker advantage typically goes to the party. Enemies that aren't aware of the party's existence have no reason to get proactive regarding them, and while reoccurring foes, or any foes of a famous party can and should take them into account, if not actively hunt down the party for the most part, the party goes to the adventure.

When you have a stronghold, or land, or whatever, it comes to you. And that means you get fucked over by being on the wrong side of the equation.

Buffs exist in all editions (older editions contain fewer, but more meaningful buffs) and strongholds/land being useless/liabilities was also true in all editions... but I was primarily focusing on modern D&D, namely 3.5.

It wasn't an attack on older editions, but it was an attack on the notion that money serves a purpose beyond magical item purchase past very low levels (when all you can afford is nonmagical utility gear, like weapons and armor, so magic items are outside your price range).

Edit: Several people have said things to the effect of "No, because he'd be easily robbed."



You wanna mess with that guy? Now consider his guns turn you into toads. You still want some of that? Any sane person would find an easier mark.

Quote from: Mr. GC;593163Actually, no.

I've talked about this in a PM with a user here, but it's worth mentioning out in the open. Attacker advantage is a real thing. Basically, whoever is attacking has the advantage because unlike the real world, things like "defensible positions" either don't mean anything against any threats that matter, or their effect is more than overshadowed by the sheer advantage that comes from being the aggressor. Namely, buffs.

The defender can only have passive buffs - anything they can maintain all day, or effectively all day.

Anyone aware that an attack will take place can have active buffs - stuff you cannot sustain constantly, and therefore you must know you need it to have it. The attacking side is of course aware of their intentions to attack. The defenders are not necessarily aware of this, and cannot maintain eternal vigilance (unless they're undead or something).

So, because the attacker can get ready, and attack at a time of their choosing, they have a massive advantage over the defending side, who is forced to either fight at a massive disadvantage, or spend time evening the odds while getting killed... which is also a massive disadvantage.

Ordinarily, attacker advantage typically goes to the party. Enemies that aren't aware of the party's existence have no reason to get proactive regarding them, and while reoccurring foes, or any foes of a famous party can and should take them into account, if not actively hunt down the party for the most part, the party goes to the adventure.

When you have a stronghold, or land, or whatever, it comes to you. And that means you get fucked over by being on the wrong side of the equation.

Buffs exist in all editions (older editions contain fewer, but more meaningful buffs) and strongholds/land being useless/liabilities was also true in all editions... but I was primarily focusing on modern D&D, namely 3.5.

It wasn't an attack on older editions, but it was an attack on the notion that money serves a purpose beyond magical item purchase past very low levels (when all you can afford is nonmagical utility gear, like weapons and armor, so magic items are outside your price range).

Ah, that does make sense.  Though I have to say, any sort of conspicuous magic shop would end up being targeted by an intelligent enemy (with henchmen, of course).  If the magic shop "owner" was such a bad-ass, he wouldn't be working a magic shop, he'd be slaying dragons or whatever.