I played Burning Wheel for a while, but never used the non-human races. It had some great design ideas, but both character generation and game play was really involved. There was a steep learning curve.

More broadly, I think that's the problem with making elves and dwarves as more fundamentally non-human. If successful, it makes it hard for players who want to role-play a dwarf or elf, because they have to operate very differently than if they're role-playing a human.

Any ideas for incorporating this concept into osr, classic and non d20 games like savage worlds? I used to think race as class was the answer now I'm not so much anymore

Race as class works well for making non-humans less human, however, there's no reason some games or campaigns could not have racial only classes.

Race based versions of classes is fun way to thread the needle where players get more choices (not a good or bad thing in itself), but the race remains unique vs. others.

AKA, a human warrior and a dwarf war-smith might both be fighting men, but how they approach battle could be wildly different so in actual play, the differences are stark and showcased at the table.

Quote from: jhkim on December 29, 2021, 05:09:31 PM
I played Burning Wheel for a while, but never used the non-human races. It had some great design ideas, but both character generation and game play was really involved. There was a steep learning curve.

More broadly, I think that's the problem with making elves and dwarves as more fundamentally non-human. If successful, it makes it hard for players who want to role-play a dwarf or elf, because they have to operate very differently than if they're role-playing a human.

yes, that's the challenge. If your game makes the psychology of the different type of creature very different then, shocker, many players don't want to play it anymore.

Well, if you like race as class, ACKS has interesting takes on that, wherein the non -human races have distinct classes.  Some are basically multi-classes, but others are culturally specific and pretty cool.

And in my opinion, most systems could do it better than the atrocious rules provided by The One Ring rpg.  But everyone has different tastes.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 28, 2021, 02:50:29 AM
You're Either an Elf or a Point-Eared Cosplayer

Its the same picture.

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 29, 2021, 06:31:44 PM
Race as class works well for making non-humans less human, however, there's no reason some games or campaigns could not have racial only classes.

Race based versions of classes is fun way to thread the needle where players get more choices (not a good or bad thing in itself), but the race remains unique vs. others.

AKA, a human warrior and a dwarf war-smith might both be fighting men, but how they approach battle could be wildly different so in actual play, the differences are stark and showcased at the table.

Race based versions of classes is how my system does it. It works well imo.

Quote from: Spinachcat on December 29, 2021, 06:31:44 PM
Race as class works well for making non-humans less human, however, there's no reason some games or campaigns could not have racial only classes..

Meh.  Race as class merely forces Demi-humans to all be the same multi-class hybrid in most instances.  This in no way makes them unique from humans.

Races need something different to enforce a difference.  Modern players will simply bitch about the bio essentialism this necessitates.

Only stupid players will bitch about bioessentialism as the whole point of the exercise is not to clandestinely encode the mentality of future society but to have fun playing a game that is about fanciful bullshit.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM
Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

Or Melniboneans.

ToMAYto / ToMAHto

What's funny to me is we had this exact issue back in the 80s with D&D elves...but NOT with any of the races in Star Frontiers.

Even among the same players.
No idea why.

Maybe because scifi aliens are supposed to be...alien?

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

I refuse to play Talislanta.

(Remember those old print ads? 'No elves'?)

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

I think I'll keep doing my thing and ignore your advice on this. Thanks anyway.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

I think I'll keep doing my thing and ignore your advice on this. Thanks anyway.

Agreed and seconded.

For someone who claims to be more open minded than the average SJW, Pundit sure CS likes to channel his brand of onetruewayism. It stopped being cute, funny and more importantly interesting a nano second ago.

Quote from: Abraxus on December 30, 2021, 10:06:55 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2021, 01:33:06 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 28, 2021, 08:05:33 PM
The last thing I need at my table is some pretentious twat pretending that they're oh-so-inscrutable when trying to role-play something like an elf.

Then you shouldn't let people play elves.

I think I'll keep doing my thing and ignore your advice on this. Thanks anyway.

Agreed and seconded.

For someone who claims to be more open minded than the average SJW, Pundit sure CS likes to channel his brand of onetruewayism. It stopped being cute, funny and more importantly interesting a nano second ago.

I mean there is some truth to the idea of wanting to play Demi humans and non human races as more alien, otherwise why not just run a human only game.

I'd have liked to see more ideas on homebrew and houserule ideas on making elves either more like Tolkien's version or more like myth while still keeping them playable. At least even just roleplaying tips.

So far from this thread alone I've seen
Unique classes or feats for non humans.
Race locked classes, like maybe only elves can dual class with magic users
Try to lean into the idea of being immortal, I'd suggest having a very unpunctual character who has a hard time actually giving a shit about things that are temporary problems.
Consider as a race various taboos or mannerisms they might have that would be nonsensical to humans. Elves having extreme etiquette or dwarven greed or compulsion to create

I'd personally love to hear specifics on how to enforce non human concepts mechanically. Alien enough to not be human but not so alien they're unplayable