I'm thinking of running an OSR game. It seems to me that selling magical loot is an expected part of it. How do you handle that in your OSR game? Do you have a "magic shop" that buys and sells magic items? Do merchants know if items are magical, or do they employ wizards? Do they buy at list price or half list price? Do they sell at list price, or sell at all? Do your players role-play it out, haggle?
Or is all of that thinking about it too much? Is it "We sell the thing; Done?"
--------------------
Rick: So what do you have here?
Berek: This is a +5 Holy Avenger. I'm looking to get 5,000 for it.
Rick: Hmm... you see these markings here? They look like Pelor's holy text, but they could be fake. Do you mind if I call in an expert?
Berek: Sure, go ahead.
Galen: Hey Rick, what do you have for me?
Rick: The gentleman says this is a +5 Holy Avenger. Wondering if you could verify it.
Galen: Hmm... it looks like a cheap knockoff from the post-Turakian era. Back then, a lot of people would take +1 swords and inscribe them with "holy words." See this? These letters are clearly not Pelorian, as you can see when I compare them to the original text from the Book of Pelor, right here.
Berek: I know this is a +5 Holy Avenger. It's even got a certificate!
Galen: Sorry to tell you this, but it's just a +1 sword. We see them come through here all of the time.
Rick: Thanks man, take care. (Galen leaves.) So, I can give you 50 gp for it.
Berek: 50? C'mon man!
Rick: I gotta go with my expert. 50 gp, take it or leave it.
Berek: Fine.
Rick: Great, see Chumlee to process the paperwork.
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, "magic shop" and "old school" anything aren't even in the same country, they are so far apart. If an item is sold (or bought), it's a one-off deal done by knowing the right people, calling in some favors, etc. Doesn't mean it happens only one time, but every time is different and peculiar to the item and circumstances.
However, usually a magic item is either kept (because you never know when you'll need it), used to gain a favor or other barter, or passed on to a henchman. Or left in the dungeon with the body that fell off the ledge while the party was escaping or caught in the path of a disintegrate or something similar. :)
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 10, 2022, 06:42:37 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, "magic shop" and "old school" anything aren't even in the same country, they are so far apart. If an item is sold (or bought), it's a one-off deal done by knowing the right people, calling in some favors, etc. Doesn't mean it happens only one time, but every time is different and peculiar to the item and circumstances.
However, usually a magic item is either kept (because you never know when you'll need it), used to gain a favor or other barter, or passed on to a henchman. Or left in the dungeon with the body that fell off the ledge while the party was escaping or caught in the path of a disintegrate or something similar. :)
This, I've NEVER sold a magic item, our current group even holds a cursed ring that drops your INT by a lot. Might come handy if we manage to trick a BBG to put it on.
As for a "magic shop" I could see it if it sells ingredients, paper, and other stuff the wizard needs, but I can only see it in a big city.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 10, 2022, 07:07:49 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 10, 2022, 06:42:37 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, "magic shop" and "old school" anything aren't even in the same country, they are so far apart. If an item is sold (or bought), it's a one-off deal done by knowing the right people, calling in some favors, etc. Doesn't mean it happens only one time, but every time is different and peculiar to the item and circumstances.
However, usually a magic item is either kept (because you never know when you'll need it), used to gain a favor or other barter, or passed on to a henchman. Or left in the dungeon with the body that fell off the ledge while the party was escaping or caught in the path of a disintegrate or something similar. :)
This, I've NEVER sold a magic item, our current group even holds a cursed ring that drops your INT by a lot. Might come handy if we manage to trick a BBG to put it on.
As for a "magic shop" I could see it if it sells ingredients, paper, and other stuff the wizard needs, but I can only see it in a big city.
This. *Maybe* there is a hedge wizard or wisewoman who can cast 0-level spells who might have some raw materials for sale or trade. You want access to higher level magic? You'd better be in a big city and a member of the mage's guild - even then you're not going to unload your +5-anything. Unless you're doing a high fantasy campaign, magic should be illegal, unsafe, and rare...
No, we do not have a labeled magic shop—that would not fit our theme.
But you bet your sweet ass buying and selling magic items is part of it. We have a sage who can identify magic items for free. He then will generally make offers for the item. I play our most recent sage like Richard Rawlings. He will sell items as well. Only unused magic items grant experience.
I have found the trick to this comes from how you set up your world/economy. Question back to Aglondir—how have you set up healing potions in your campaign? Who makes them? How much do they cost?
Quote from: Aglondir on May 10, 2022, 05:33:43 PM
I'm thinking of running an OSR game. It seems to me that selling magical loot is an expected part of it. How do you handle that in your OSR game? Do you have a "magic shop" that buys and sells magic items? Do merchants know if items are magical, or do they employ wizards? Do they buy at list price or half list price? Do they sell at list price, or sell at all? Do your players role-play it out, haggle?
Or is all of that thinking about it too much? Is it "We sell the thing; Done?"
TBH, last time I ran an OSR Fantasy game, 2nd Edition was in circulation. However back then, a +5 Holy Avenger would be nothing but legend. Most magic items were rare so the party typically didn't part with them. In some larger cities the Mages Guild might be able to arrange a purchase, assuming they weren't aligned with a thieves guild who would attempt to steal the item. (I did that rarely, but the players were always paranoid after that.) The church would buy them at the lowest price they could (Usually 25-50% listed value), assuming it was an item aligned with their philosophy, and the seller was a member of the sect. Of course there was the obligatory 10% tithing taken at the end.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 10, 2022, 06:42:37 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, "magic shop" and "old school" anything aren't even in the same country, they are so far apart.
How can you say that when every early D&D campaign had magic shops? Even the very first dungeon expedition every made by anyone ended with a player selling the magic sword he found.
And even Gygax's books featured a magic shop where the dwarven proprietor could identify magic item just by their physical description.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 10, 2022, 05:33:43 PMHow do you handle that in your OSR game?
Just ask yourself how would a person go about buying an expensive piece of art or a rare antique in the real world. That's how magic item sales would work. Auction you need special invitations to, brokers, talking to other collectors, etc.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 10, 2022, 06:42:37 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, "magic shop" and "old school" anything aren't even in the same country, they are so far apart. If an item is sold (or bought), it's a one-off deal done by knowing the right people, calling in some favors, etc. Doesn't mean it happens only one time, but every time is different and peculiar to the item and circumstances.
However, usually a magic item is either kept (because you never know when you'll need it), used to gain a favor or other barter, or passed on to a henchman. Or left in the dungeon with the body that fell off the ledge while the party was escaping or caught in the path of a disintegrate or something similar. :)
Exactly. There is no price because there is no market. There is no market because magic items are rare and unique.
Magic that is common enough to be sold at a shoppe is not magic. It's a physics phenomenon that is understood to a degree that allows retail trade.
Magic items in old school games were so rare, practically all modules had them, many monsters (particularly high level ones) had at least a chance of having some in their possession, and one of the primary goals of the game was to raid dungeons for treasure in the hopes of finding them. Don't let prescriptive notions about how the game is "supposed" to be get in the way of what you want to do or what makes sense for your campaign.
If PCs have excess +1 swords nobody else in the group needs there's no logical reason you can't sell them off. And if there are enough magical items in your game for PCs not to need that extra +1 sword, the same will be true for other adventurers in the game world, considering that PCs will certainly not be the only ones. So there absolutely could be a market for them, even if they're limited in stock and relegated to obscure shop keepers and collectors, dedicated to a select clientele. And the idea that PCs are "supposed" to have henchmen and they're supposed to give it to them instead of selling them won't stop that from happening or produce these trusted henchmen out of the ether if the PCs don't have them.
Granted, magic items will probably still be uncommon and expensive enough that not every shop keeper in town will necessarily have them or be able to afford them. So it might be possible that PCs will need to travel and make connections to find people involved in the magical item trade. Which could be an adventure on itself, or alert thieves to the fact that PCs have excess treasure on them, opening up additional possiblities.
As I have commented before: it depends on the setting.
In a middle to high magic setting, a la Eberron for example (or even FR), sure, a 'magic shop' could be feasible. A less adventurous wizard could make a decent living cranking out potions and scrolls.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 11, 2022, 09:25:22 AM
Magic items in old school games were so rare, practically all modules had them, many monsters (particularly high level ones) had at least a chance of having some in their possession, and one of the primary goals of the game was to raid dungeons for treasure in the hopes of finding them. Don't let prescriptive notions about how the game is "supposed" to be get in the way of what you want to do or what makes sense for your campaign.
There's a difference between prescription and strong opinion. A lot of things did not make sense in old modules. Why do monsters hoard currency? Are they saving up for a better lair? If adventuring is so common that there are clearinghouses for magical items, why can items still be found lying around in dungeons? There must be a distribution mechanism. Perhaps reverse adventurers who go around hiding magical items and giving them to monsters to guard. Who's funding this and where are the insurance companies? Why risk your life to obtain a commodity item?
I've played in games where much time was spent in the shopping simulator and frankly it's boring (IMO). "Don't you want to haggle? No!" Besides, adventures around the magical item trade can be had whether you've got a wagon load of Acme brand +1 short swords or a single unique and powerful artifact.
Well, not that I'm fully in the old school mode any more, but when I ran AD&D, I used the rules that equipment had to make saving throws in some situations, plus all the other crazy monster rust, acid, etc. problems. So yeah, the party was finding a fair amount of magic in the modules, but it was a little bit "easy come, easy go". Not exactly "easy", but you get the idea. I have fond memories of a near TPK because the party did not consider what a fireball might do to a magic carpet. Shame to make your save against fireball and then take all that falling damage on top of it. :D
Now in fairness, I'm cheating on this question a little, with my current campaign and own system. Quasi old school in some ways. As Ghostmaker says, it's a setting conceit, albeit built into the implied setting of the system. The system/setting assumes that between "mundane" equipment and "real magic" equipment, there is a middle ground of equipment that is better than normal, made via magical processes, but not otherwise magical thereafter. The classic +1 sword is in this system just high quality equipment that gets that +1 to hit and damage, but isn't otherwise capable of, say, bypassing certain monster defense anymore than a mundane sword is. It radiates a faint magic signature from a sufficiently advanced detect magic effect. I've also got a few "high tech" items that fit in the category even though they have no extra properties. Plate armor is an example--not something that can be made in this setting without magic, even if its technically +0 Plate.
Which means that:
- Basic mundane is bought and sold as expected.
- Middle made by magic stuff is in the "art auction, rare goods" category often, though can also be found in the proper shops. There's no "magic shop" as such, but you can buy a +1 sword from a master smith directly.
- Real magic is the stuff of legend, and fits my attitude on old school outlined above. Every buy/sell is a one-off, and thus rare, even when you can find the item.
Theoretically, you could have a metropolis that might edge into "magic shop" given that--except my setting caps out at moderate cities for other unrelated setting reasons.
Also, I think sometimes people confuse cause and effect on this question when discussing it, i.e. lost in translation. I get that others reason from "D&D rules work this way, ergo in my setting there would be magic shops." I dislike magic shops aesthetically, "therefore, the rules are adapted to make them not happen." Plus, I wanted to back away a little from the common conceit of a world in decline/recovering from apocalypse to explain all the equipment available even when no one is making it, but without playing into the "magic as high science" gambit.
That is, the first question on the presence of magic shops is, "Does the GM want magic shops?" Then make your rules fit that decision. It's not rocket science.
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 11, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 11, 2022, 09:25:22 AM
Magic items in old school games were so rare, practically all modules had them, many monsters (particularly high level ones) had at least a chance of having some in their possession, and one of the primary goals of the game was to raid dungeons for treasure in the hopes of finding them. Don't let prescriptive notions about how the game is "supposed" to be get in the way of what you want to do or what makes sense for your campaign.
There's a difference between prescription and strong opinion. A lot of things did not make sense in old modules. Why do monsters hoard currency? Are they saving up for a better lair? If adventuring is so common that there are clearinghouses for magical items, why can items still be found lying around in dungeons? There must be a distribution mechanism. Perhaps reverse adventurers who go around hiding magical items and giving them to monsters to guard. Who's funding this and where are the insurance companies? Why risk your life to obtain a commodity item?
I've played in games where much time was spent in the shopping simulator and frankly it's boring (IMO). "Don't you want to haggle? No!" Besides, adventures around the magical item trade can be had whether you've got a wagon load of Acme brand +1 short swords or a single unique and powerful artifact.
There's a difference between strong opinion and declaring that things that did happen never happened because you disapprove of them or prefer that history played out a different way. Even if it makes no sense for monsters to collect so much treasure the reality remains that that was a staple of old school gaming since the game's inception, even if the old school revisionists of today would like to erase that from history in favor of their version of what "old school" play should be.
As to how magical items can still be found in lairs despite adventurers clearing them out, the possibilities include several:
1) Adventurers in possession of magical items get killed all the time, and their friends might not always be able to reclaim their bodies, cuz sometimes they get killed as well, often by...
2) Intelligent monsters capable of using them also desire them as well, so they also hunt for treasure and may reclaim them from the bodies of dead adventurers.
3) Magic users have the ability to create magical items, so they're still in production, leading them to be in circulation, leading to more of 1 and 2.
Granted, some people may take issue with that last one, preferring that the creation of magical items be this obscure secret forgotten in the distant past, or the result of strange circumstances that imbue certain items with power. But the fact that some people may prefer things to be that way doesn't change the fact 1) the ability for magic users to create their own magical items has been part of the game for a long time, and 2) declaring that not to be so on the basis that you'd prefer it not to be (for anyone other than your own camping) would be prescriptive.
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 11, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 11, 2022, 09:25:22 AM
Magic items in old school games were so rare, practically all modules had them, many monsters (particularly high level ones) had at least a chance of having some in their possession, and one of the primary goals of the game was to raid dungeons for treasure in the hopes of finding them. Don't let prescriptive notions about how the game is "supposed" to be get in the way of what you want to do or what makes sense for your campaign.
There's a difference between prescription and strong opinion. A lot of things did not make sense in old modules. Why do monsters hoard currency? Are they saving up for a better lair? If adventuring is so common that there are clearinghouses for magical items, why can items still be found lying around in dungeons? There must be a distribution mechanism. Perhaps reverse adventurers who go around hiding magical items and giving them to monsters to guard. Who's funding this and where are the insurance companies? Why risk your life to obtain a commodity item?
I've played in games where much time was spent in the shopping simulator and frankly it's boring (IMO). "Don't you want to haggle? No!" Besides, adventures around the magical item trade can be had whether you've got a wagon load of Acme brand +1 short swords or a single unique and powerful artifact.
The challenge with strong opinion is the harder the push, the harder the push back. Your strong opinion comes down to preference, setting, and perhaps shared beliefs with your gaming group. All 100% legitimate.
Monsters hoards, items lying around on dungeons, and
why risk one's life are all easily explained by setting. I cannot tell by your examples of insurance and reverse adventurers if you are being humorous (how I'm taking it) or you are just over the conversation. But if you are genuinely curious, I can expand.
Agree on shopping simulator. I do not care to spend any significant game time at the general store. Rations, water skins, etc. Who cares? Get me your list off-session, or bring it with you to the game and give me a quick update.
Haggling with the sage to find out how much exp your newly acquired items are worth, when done correctly, IS dramatic. Not life and death as the combat waged/dungeon explored to obtain them, but finding out the exp rewards is compelling. It is also necessary to give proper weighting to the treasure tables used in early D&D.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 11, 2022, 10:39:15 AM
There's a difference between strong opinion and declaring that things that did happen never happened because you disapprove of them or prefer that history played out a different way. Even if it makes no sense for monsters to collect so much treasure the reality remains that that was a staple of old school gaming since the game's inception, even if the old school revisionists of today would like to erase that from history in favor of their version of what "old school" play should be.
As to how magical items can still be found in lairs despite adventurers clearing them out, the possibilities include several:
1) Adventurers in possession of magical items get killed all the time, and their friends might not always be able to reclaim their bodies, cuz sometimes they get killed as well, often by...
2) Intelligent monsters capable of using them also desire them as well, so they also hunt for treasure and may reclaim them from the bodies of dead adventurers.
3) Magic users have the ability to create magical items, so they're still in production, leading them to be in circulation, leading to more of 1 and 2.
Granted, some people may take issue with that last one, preferring that the creation of magical items be this obscure secret forgotten in the distant past, or the result of strange circumstances that imbue certain items with power. But the fact that some people may prefer things to be that way doesn't change the fact 1) the ability for magic users to create their own magical items has been part of the game for a long time, and 2) declaring that not to be so on the basis that you'd prefer it not to be (for anyone other than your own camping) would be prescriptive.
The original question was very broad. How do
you handle the selling of magical items in
your OSR game? You're against prescription, but you're using this opportunity to prescribe what OSR is. (I have no desire to rehash that old debate, so don't bother.) There is an enforcement aspect to prescription. Prescriptive grammar was enforced by the switch. How do you or I enforce our prescriptions on an internet stranger? We don't because we can't.
As for 1-3, I agree these are possible and good ideas, but these are also possible where magic is not a commodity. They don't necessitate an abundance of magical items. To me, in my opinion, everyone walking around with an overabundance of +1 or +2 items is silly and amounts to little more than some added arithmetic. If magic is commonplace it is mundane. Nothing you've suggest requires commodity magic.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 11, 2022, 10:48:36 AM
The challenge with strong opinion is the harder the push, the harder the push back. Your strong opinion comes down to preference, setting, and perhaps shared beliefs with your gaming group. All 100% legitimate.
Monsters hoards, items lying around on dungeons, and why risk one's life are all easily explained by setting. I cannot tell by your examples of insurance and reverse adventurers if you are being humorous (how I'm taking it) or you are just over the conversation. But if you are genuinely curious, I can expand.
Agree on shopping simulator. I do not care to spend any significant game time at the general store. Rations, water skins, etc. Who cares? Get me your list off-session, or bring it with you to the game and give me a quick update.
Haggling with the sage to find out how much exp your newly acquired items are worth, when done correctly, IS dramatic. Not life and death as the combat waged/dungeon explored to obtain them, but finding out the exp rewards is compelling. It is also necessary to give proper weighting to the treasure tables used in early D&D.
Yes, very true. I find that nuance sometimes gets lost, so my mistake for going headlong into it. And yes, my examples were an attempt at humor.
Quote from: rytrasmi on May 11, 2022, 11:11:54 AM
Yes, very true. I find that nuance sometimes gets lost, so my mistake for going headlong into it. And yes, my examples were an attempt at humor.
I found it funny. It conjured an image of Tom Selleck telling old adventures the many benefits of putting magic items back in the dungeon lol.
Greetings!
How many adventuring groups are out there in the wilderness and in the different dungeons at any given time?
As for "Old School" assumptions, looking through my AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, refer to the random wilderness and random dungeon creation and encounter tables. Encountering parties of various NPC's and groups of adventurers is in fact, a fairly frequent occurrence.
Next, refer to the Adventurer Party creation tables in the same sections, paying attention to the equipment and magic item gear tables. Yes, by honest random rolling, most of these NPC parties and adventurer groups will be fucking decked out in magic items like fucking Christmas Trees.
So, just stop with all the whining about "Magic Shops" and selling or buying magic items. BY THE BOOK, there's obviously going to be a market for magic items, and a group of Player Characters are themselves going to come into possession of HUGE collections of magic items that they don't need and don't use--hence, they are often going to seek to sell such items. Even if a "Magic Shop" market didn't previously exist, it is certainly natural and reasonable to assume that such a kind of market would be quickly developed and organized.
Fit that into your campaigns however you want. Yes, fiddle with it, and go ahead and interpret it however you deem appropriate. But geesus, it is a very real dynamic that exists and has been established from the beginning in the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
A fast and dirty way to come up with a selection, if you're not keen on giving the players access to the entirety of the magic item list: pull up the treasure tables, and roll appropriately for their CR. Don't bother with coins -- just check magic items.
The party I'm currently GMing for lucked out early on and was able to secure an immovable rod (and even if you don't subscribe to silly physics bullshit, the rod is a remarkably useful bit of gear). But the last time they tried to purchase magic items, the roll was weak and all they could find were three potions of heroism.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 11, 2022, 09:25:22 AM
Magic items in old school games were so rare, practically all modules had them, many monsters (particularly high level ones) had at least a chance of having some in their possession, and one of the primary goals of the game was to raid dungeons for treasure in the hopes of finding them. Don't let prescriptive notions about how the game is "supposed" to be get in the way of what you want to do or what makes sense for your campaign.
If PCs have excess +1 swords nobody else in the group needs there's no logical reason you can't sell them off. And if there are enough magical items in your game for PCs not to need that extra +1 sword, the same will be true for other adventurers in the game world, considering that PCs will certainly not be the only ones. So there absolutely could be a market for them, even if they're limited in stock and relegated to obscure shop keepers and collectors, dedicated to a select clientele. And the idea that PCs are "supposed" to have henchmen and they're supposed to give it to them instead of selling them won't stop that from happening or produce these trusted henchmen out of the ether if the PCs don't have them.
Granted, magic items will probably still be uncommon and expensive enough that not every shop keeper in town will necessarily have them or be able to afford them. So it might be possible that PCs will need to travel and make connections to find people involved in the magical item trade. Which could be an adventure on itself, or alert thieves to the fact that PCs have excess treasure on them, opening up additional possiblities.
If PCs have excess +1 swords The GM is not doing his job, lets assume you roll for your loot (as you should), and then another +1 sword gets rolled, you re-roll or just go and change it for something else.
Not foprgetting that +1 anything is boring, you need to make it unique.
We had magic shops in some games going back at least to around 1990, I think we were a bit influenced by Hero's Quest (Quest for Glory I), the Sierra PC game. I'm pretty sure we just talked about items being "very rare" or "superb" or "protective", only handling the numbers when you finally put it down on paper.
Quote from: Trond on May 11, 2022, 02:05:46 PM
We had magic shops in some games going back at least to around 1990, I think we were a bit influenced by Hero's Quest (Quest for Glory I), the Sierra PC game. I'm pretty sure we just talked about items being "very rare" or "superb" or "protective", only handling the numbers when you finally put it down on paper.
Keapon Laffin from QVG2!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 11, 2022, 01:44:52 PM
If PCs have excess +1 swords The GM is not doing his job, lets assume you roll for your loot (as you should), and then another +1 sword gets rolled, you re-roll or just go and change it for something else.
Not foprgetting that +1 anything is boring, you need to make it unique.
Agreed. And another area where 0e D&D does some nice things. Finding a magic sword can be downright terrifying.
"Magic Shoppes" are definitely old school, and they make a great deal of logical sense.....although the places in which such things are sold won't necessarily be overtly called "magic shoppes". The point here, is to ignore the grognard whiners who try to engage in historical revisionism and pretend that old school D&D doesn't have institutions for buying, selling, and identifying magic items. They're wrong.
Take note that most magic items in AD&D (for example) have a "Gold Piece Sale Value", which LOGICALLY implies that magic items are BOUGHT and SOLD. And taking human nature into account, a market for magic items will be created.....since if you read old school adventure modules, you'll find them stuffed to the gills with tons of magic items.
Magic items are NOT rare in "default" old school D&D. What you do in your own campaign, is of course....your business, and your choice. Now the question is.....how do you buy and sell this stuff? If I were to guess:
(1.) Sages: A sage with expertise in the right fields of study will probably know if an item is magical, and what it does. At least, this would be the case in AD&D.
(2.) Wizards' Guilds: They can absolutely identify almost anything that isn't an artifact, but they'll usually charge you for it. You'd probably need to have a cordial relationship with a Wizards' Guild, for this to happen though. If so, it will probably be pretty easy to sell magic items to them. Whether or not you get a good price is another question entirely.
(3.) Alchemists: They can probably identify most potions. It's safe to say that they sell magic potions.
(4.) Merchants & Auction Houses: These sell magic items, and have their abilities pre-identified and pre-catalogued. There will be reputable auction houses and magic shoppes that sell magic items, and other "shady" auction houses....that you cannot fully trust. The magic shoppes might not actually be called "Magic Shoppes"; they might be called something else. Take note that many places will not sell magic items openly, due to some places having strong social prohibitions against wizardry. In other words, you're probably not gonna find a "magic shoppe" in your typical farming village....so you'll have to go somewhere else to buy or sell magic items.
Another thing is that not every magic item you want is going to be available when you want to buy it. In fact, most magic items that you might want at any one moment probably won't have instant availability. Many magic items will be nearly impossible to buy, like say.....a Ring of Three Wishes. On the other hand, getting hold of most magic potions and oils should be hilariously easy.....if you have money. Likewise, getting your hands on weapons and armor BELOW a +3 should be pretty easy, considering how common they are in adventure modules.....provided that you can afford it. After that, magic item availability gets kinda murky. Wizards' Guilds will probably be very discriminating in regards to whom they sell wands, staves, and scrolls to. And you obviously won't just find a Ring of Three Wishes just sitting there in some rinky-dink magic shoppe somewhere.
If I were to guess, I'd say the "Gold Piece Sale Value" in the DMG is a guideline. You'll occasionally pay less, but you'll often pay more. Some vendors will permit haggling, while others won't. If you want to roleplay this stuff, go for it. If not, you can just do this stuff "off-camera". Some people enjoy this stuff, while others don't. Just remember that the people who buy magic items from adventurers probably have both multiple contacts and MONEY. As always, YMMV.
Quote from: FingerRod on May 11, 2022, 08:01:00 AM
Question back to Aglondir—how have you set up healing potions in your campaign? Who makes them? How much do they cost?
Hi FingerRod,
Honestly, I don't know! It's been some time since I ran D&D. Usually I run other genres. I'm still in the process of setting up the campaign world, so I thought I would seek the sage counsel of The Site. I need to ramp up quickly. Here's what I've got so far:
System: Labyrinth Lord (and Advanced)
Feel: Points of Light, from 4E (minus Eladrin, Dragonborn,Tieflings, etc.)
Setting: Nentir Vale, from 4E
Town: Fallcrest from 4E, population 1350 (+900 outside walls.)
So with that in mind:
1. There is one apothecary, where you can buy/sell potions.
2. There is one armorer, where you can buy/sell magic weapons and armor.
3. There is one high-level wizard. You can try to buy/sell scrolls. Good luck.
4. You can try to buy/sell other magic items with the nobility. No one else will have the coin.
5. Items sell at list value. Items are bought at half value.
6. One and two don't require role-playing. Just "I sell X and buy Y." Three and four do.
I think this makes sense for the size of the town. It's not Waterdeep.
Ye Olde Magic Shoppe you say?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSViXb8WUAAo5f_?format=jpg&name=small)
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 11, 2022, 04:44:31 PM
"Magic Shoppes" are definitely old school...
Sacrificial Lamb,
Great post. I typed mine before I read yours, but I think it's on the same page (adjusting for a town the size of Fallcrest.)
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 11, 2022, 08:40:16 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on May 10, 2022, 05:33:43 PM
I'm thinking of running an OSR game. It seems to me that selling magical loot is an expected part of it. How do you handle that in your OSR game? Do you have a "magic shop" that buys and sells magic items? Do merchants know if items are magical, or do they employ wizards? Do they buy at list price or half list price? Do they sell at list price, or sell at all? Do your players role-play it out, haggle?
Or is all of that thinking about it too much? Is it "We sell the thing; Done?"
TBH, last time I ran an OSR Fantasy game, 2nd Edition was in circulation. However back then, a +5 Holy Avenger would be nothing but legend. Most magic items were rare so the party typically didn't part with them. In some larger cities the Mages Guild might be able to arrange a purchase, assuming they weren't aligned with a thieves guild who would attempt to steal the item. (I did that rarely, but the players were always paranoid after that.) The church would buy them at the lowest price they could (Usually 25-50% listed value), assuming it was an item aligned with their philosophy, and the seller was a member of the sect. Of course there was the obligatory 10% tithing taken at the end.
Hi Godsmonkey,
My goofy example of selling the +5 Holy Avenger was just trying to make a funny "Pawn Stars" reference. I seriously doubt treasure of that rarity will show up in this campaign!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 11, 2022, 10:34:43 AM
Which means that:
- Basic mundane is bought and sold as expected.
- Middle made by magic stuff is in the "art auction, rare goods" category often, though can also be found in the proper shops. There's no "magic shop" as such, but you can buy a +1 sword from a master smith directly.
- Real magic is the stuff of legend, and fits my attitude on old school outlined above. Every buy/sell is a one-off, and thus rare, even when you can find the item.
Hi Steven,
Love the three categories! I did not see it before I posted my brainstorm on Fallcrest, but I think we're using the same principles.
Here we go again...
Depends on the setting of course.
If magic items are relatively common then yes, "magic shops" of some sort will exist. Though this might be as simple as the local general goods store will buy one.
But in general I take my cues from BX and AD&D which had advice or examples like you turn in magic items for gold to "someone" and when I first read the rules in AD&D I got the impression this was not a shop. But was instead turning items in to the local government for what amounts to a bounty. BX never really explained either where these things were actually being sold to. So used Keep on the Borderlands as my general guide for that too.
I also liked AD&Ds rule that you had to choose. Keep or sell. You could not do both. Though I do not recall any in-world reasoning for that?
So in most of my campaigns actual magic shops are few and far between unless its a capitol or other location where such things make sense.
But when running a more high fantasy setting magic shops become more prevalent. In my own book magic shops were only in capitols or major market crossroads. Places where it makes sense for one to be.
If I were running something where theres a single huge megadungeon then I would place one in the nearest town because an adventure hub like that is bound to develop a lively trade in things brought up or supplies needed to go in.
Another big factor is this. How hard is it to craft magic items? This is going to skew things even more. If crafting an item is relatively easy then magic shops are going to pop up alot more. But the longer it takes and the harder it is. The rare its going to be down to the point someones making something once in their career at best and finding someone to make one for you is going to be a task as well.
Quote from: Aglondir on May 11, 2022, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 11, 2022, 04:44:31 PM
"Magic Shoppes" are definitely old school...
Sacrificial Lamb,
Great post. I typed mine before I read yours, but I think it's on the same page (adjusting for a town the size of Fallcrest.)
Thank you, Aglondir.
By the way, magic armor in AD&D with a +3 bonus (or better) is probably more rare because specialized material is needed. On page 164 of the 1e Dungeon Master's Guide:
Quote"Armor of +3 bonus is of special meteorite iron steel, +4 is mithrol alloyed steel, +5 is adamantite alloyed steel."
Oddly enough, I can't find a limitation like this for magic weapons......so stronger magic armor might be more rare than stronger magic weapons. It's weird.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 11, 2022, 05:29:19 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on May 11, 2022, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 11, 2022, 04:44:31 PM
"Magic Shoppes" are definitely old school...
Sacrificial Lamb,
Great post. I typed mine before I read yours, but I think it's on the same page (adjusting for a town the size of Fallcrest.)
Thank you, Aglondir.
By the way, magic armor in AD&D with a +3 bonus (or better) is probably more rare because specialized material is needed. On page 164 of the 1e Dungeon Master's Guide:
Quote"Armor of +3 bonus is of special meteorite iron steel, +4 is mithrol alloyed steel, +5 is adamantite alloyed steel."
Oddly enough, I can't find a limitation like this for magic weapons......so stronger magic armor might be more rare than stronger magic weapons. It's weird.
If you go by the treasure tables in the DMG, more powerful magic weapons will also be more rare.
The more interesting implication is that magic armor isn't necessarily enchanted, it's just made from rare high quality steel. It also doesn't have any effect like magic weapons do, like being able to hit monsters that can't be harmed by mundane weapons.
I've floated the idea of having the sale of magic items be like a drug deal, with everyone being tense and making sure nothing goes wrong.
In Ptolus, Eberron, Ravnica, Hogwarts and Abeir-Toril, yes.
In Westeros, Middle-earth, Earthsea, or Arthas, no.
In old school D&D there was some prices to create magic items IIRC (or was that OSE?).
Mostly a matter of taste and setting.
(However, even in HPL stories I think people might buy eldritch items from time to time... just not in specialized "magic shops").
Quote from: FingerRod on May 11, 2022, 03:39:46 PM
Keapon Laffin from QVG2!
That game had so many flirty girls that I was disappointed that the hero didn't end up with any of them.
Quote from: PsyXypher on May 11, 2022, 09:09:55 PM
I've floated the idea of having the sale of magic items be like a drug deal, with everyone being tense and making sure nothing goes wrong.
You could have that with 'proscribed' or dangerous magical items anyways.
Quote from: Trond on May 12, 2022, 12:20:00 AM
Quote from: FingerRod on May 11, 2022, 03:39:46 PM
Keapon Laffin from QVG2!
That game had so many flirty girls that I was disappointed that the hero didn't end up with any of them.
Right? The money changer talking about the many uses of oil :o :o
Quote from: Aglondir on May 10, 2022, 05:33:43 PM
I'm thinking of running an OSR game. It seems to me that selling magical loot is an expected part of it. How do you handle that in your OSR game? Do you have a "magic shop" that buys and sells magic items? Do merchants know if items are magical, or do they employ wizards? Do they buy at list price or half list price? Do they sell at list price, or sell at all? Do your players role-play it out, haggle?
Or is all of that thinking about it too much? Is it "We sell the thing; Done?"
In my Majestic Fantasy Realms, magic Items are luxury trade much like our history's trade in silk, spices, porcelain, and other rare items from far-off lands. Except these are unique items more like sculpture or art.
Your best prices are gained at auctions that are attended by an elite few, mostly merchants, with the wealth to bid on costly items. There is a "retail" level but is more about making an appointment with a merchant with the right connections than either waiting or buying what is on hand. Also, these merchants can accept commissions and contract with magic users they have a relationship to make a specific item.
The foundation of my system is outlined in this PDF.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic_Item_Creation_Rev_2.pdf
I tweaked the trading rules since I released this.
The latest iteration can be found in this on page 20 under Haggling (I ditched Accounting)
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2010.pdf
OR
My Merchant Adventures rules found here. The Haggling rules are found on page 8.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Merchant%20Adventures%20Rev%2004.pdf
Basically, the procedure is the player and the merchant both make 4 1d20 rolls looking to roll a modified 15 or better. You count up the relative success and look it up on the Trade Deal table. Rolling a nat 20 or a nat 1 modifies the number of successes.
If you don't use my ability system, then add in the higher of the character's intelligence or charisma and a bonus equal to half their level rounded down to the 1d20 roll. I been using this since the early 2010s and it worked out well.
The last part of the magic shop puzzle is the inventory.
First I determine the total value of the inventory by dividing the shop owner's xp total by 10. This is the value of the shop's inventory in d (or silver pieces).
Then I roll up a magic item hoard using that value.
I don't have a PDF of my treasure generations but I can share an inspiration pad pro files.
Inspiration Pad Pro can be downloaded for free from here.
https://www.nbos.com/products/inspiration-pad-pro
The table I use can be downloaded from here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eRTljiNySeLqrILKORBtxR_NxxmiTe0j/view?usp=sharing
Note I recommend inputting numbers like 1,523 rather than 1,000, 1,500, or 2,000. The generation works by diving the treasure into 5,000d, 1,000d, and 100d increments. There is a chance that a 5,000d increment will be rolled up as 5 1,000d increments and so on. By having a number like 1,523, you increase the variety of smaller value items.
Below is the result of rolling 12,357d inventory of shop owned by a 7th level Magic User with 123,570 xp in OSE. Mind the magic-user likely only made the potions and scrolls and bought the rest using their social connections.
Finally remember you can choose to interpret d as either 1d = 1sp or 1d=1 gp depending on what you want for your campaign.
Hope this helps.
QuoteBroadsword with Light 15' radius (250d)
+1 Small Dagger (603d)
Broadsword with +1 damage only (450d)
Mace with +1 damage only (313d)
Large Dagger with +1 versus Demons (210d)
+1 Large Shield (572d)
+1 Small Shield (542d)
+2 Cuirboulli Armor (3050d)
Small Dagger with Return Weapon (203d)
+1 Broadsword (750d)
+1 One Handed Spear (608d)
Mace with +1 damage only (313d)
+1 Large Shield (572d)
+2 Shortsword (2100d)
+1 Plate Armor (4000d)
Scroll of Detect Evil (200d)
Scroll of Command (200d)
Charm of Command (400d)
Scroll of Charm Person (200d)
Scroll of Snake Charm (400d)
Charm of Haste (1,200d)
Scroll of Magic Missile (200d)
Scroll of Hold Person (600d)
Scroll of Magic Missile (200d)
Scroll of Command (200d)
Potion of Climbing (500d)
Potion of Clairvoyance (600d)
Potion of Fire Resistance (500d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Plant Control (500d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Healing (400d)
Potion of Clairaudience (500d)
Potion of Ethereality (1,000d)
Potion of Invulnerability (700d)
8 viz
It really does depend on the setting you have, as the OSR is a pretty broad label, some settings have considerably more magic than others.
In my current campaign (1e AD&D set in Greyhawk) I have "Magic Shops" in the larger cities, most of which carry only a few very minor magic
items, selling mostly spell components and potion ingredients (depending on local availability), some minor magic weapons might be availible at
curiosity or pawn shops (always marked up to well over the price listed in the DMG), and all but the most minor of magic trinkets can be sold only
if there is a buyer who would be interested in, and can afford the item in question. There's enough magical junk lying around all over Oerth that
there's going to be a market for it, but i try to keep it to a minimum. Most items the players get, in any case, they'll want to keep. So far no one's
sold anything, and only one player has expressed interest in buying a magic sword (which will cost a ridiculous amount of gold, even if he could
find one for sale, but that'll probably involve an expensive visit to a sage who specializes in such things, more likely they'll tell him where one can
be found. Pretty sure White Plume Mountain has one.)
Anyways, that's how I'm dealing with the surplus of Magic Items in the setting I'm using. Want to buy a healing potion? Local Church or Temple
will have 'em. Probably for 400gp each, slightly less if they are eligible for a discount. Has kept things from crossing that line from the sublime
to the ridiculous so far.
Quote from: estar on May 12, 2022, 10:33:42 AM
Quote from: Aglondir on May 10, 2022, 05:33:43 PM
I'm thinking of running an OSR game. It seems to me that selling magical loot is an expected part of it. How do you handle that in your OSR game? Do you have a "magic shop" that buys and sells magic items? Do merchants know if items are magical, or do they employ wizards? Do they buy at list price or half list price? Do they sell at list price, or sell at all? Do your players role-play it out, haggle?
Or is all of that thinking about it too much? Is it "We sell the thing; Done?"
In my Majestic Fantasy Realms, magic Items are luxury trade much like our history's trade in silk, spices, porcelain, and other rare items from far-off lands. Except these are unique items more like sculpture or art...
Hi Estar,
Amazing work you've done there. I like the idea of auctions. It seems like something that would occur in a large city, like Lanhkmar or Waterdeep.