TheRPGSite

Question says it all: would you pay more than $10 for a PDF?

Personally, once the price of a PDF goes beyond $10, I become very reticent to the purchase. It has to be some damn premium best gaming ever item for me to pay $20+ for a game in electronic format. Not that I haven't done so in the past (Pavis and Big Rubble at $20 CAD comes to mind as my latest PDF purchase), but I've got to REALLY want the item to hit the "purchase" button.

Ten dollars is my preferred max, but I will not pay more than half the hard copy price.  Really anything above $15 is too much.

Quote from: MonkeyWrench;429382Ten dollars is my preferred max, but I will not pay more than half the hard copy price.  Really anything above $15 is too much.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

SJG is particularly egregious about this. $30 for a PDF? Fuck that.

Quote from: MonkeyWrench;429382Ten dollars is my preferred max, but I will not pay more than half the hard copy price.  Really anything above $15 is too much.

What he said, with only a few exceptions. A compilation of several books could be worth a bit more.
=

As a consumer, I wouldn't want to pay more than $10. However, I can see that the publisher would be justified in charging a price that netted them the same amount of money that selling the product to the distributor does. Assuming typical publisher sells book to distributor for 40% of MSRP and PDF publisher retains 65%-70% of PDF sale price, then PDF should be 57.14-61.54% of print MSRP price to make same amount per sale. This is not accounting for manufacturing costs, which with PDF being $0 manufacturing costs versus paper/ink/labor to do print run, would reduce PDF cost. Manufacturing cost is solely for the physical production of the book, not the creation costs which include writing, editing, art, layout, etc. Those are a separate category of costs that must be accounted for prior to selling the book.

Absolutely not.  $10, maximum.

No. I might spend 5$, but probably not.

I've bought lots of pdfs, but rarely for more than $10. Actually $12-15 is an acceptable price point for me but I balk at $20 or more.

I regularly buy above $10, but not too much higher.  Over $15 is really pushing the limit.  Over $20? Get real.

If I buy the dead tree, I want a free PDF.

If PDF only, I want a POD option with a free PDF.

If PDF only and no POD, then my interest wanes greatly.   I have not spent more than $10 on a PDF, but I would in theory if the game would have to rock my shiznack.

Since $10 is only about £6 i would say my maximum is closer to $15 or about £10 but for that i'd expect something worthwhile from a rulebook though it doesnt have to be in full colour as long as i cant gain some use by reading it if nothing else...if its for a pdf of something like starblazer adventures though then i may be willing to pay abit more since its frickin huge.

I'd pay more if I really just had to have the damn thing and that was the only option... but that's far and few between. Most of the PDFs I've bought have been $5 or less.

I have never paid more than $10 for a PDF. Then again, I have only purchased two PDF's that I can remember. I am admittedly a perfect bibliophile.

-Hans

Quote from: Spinachcat;429426If I buy the dead tree, I want a free PDF.

If PDF only, I want a POD option with a free PDF.

If PDF only and no POD, then my interest wanes greatly.   I have not spent more than $10 on a PDF, but I would in theory if the game would have to rock my shiznack.

This.

Although, I don't really need a free PDF if I can get dead tree. And I can't imagine a level of rockitude that would make me pay more than $10 but I wouldn't rule it out. (So: PDF publishers, surprise me.)

I only bought PDFs when they were greatly discounted (like lots of d20 modules when the d20 license came to an end, or charity bundles). And I haven't looked at most of that stuff...

Any of the e-readers on the market allow for .pdf viewing? I'd pay a little more for .pdf's if so, simply to have a much handier way to carry and use them.

Now that I can use a PDF as easily and effectively as I can use a physical book, sure. The iPad made all the difference.

Quote from: Spinachcat;429426If I buy the dead tree, I want a free PDF.

If PDF only, I want a POD option with a free PDF.

If PDF only and no POD, then my interest wanes greatly.   I have not spent more than $10 on a PDF, but I would in theory if the game would have to rock my shiznack.

Just so you know if you ever want a PDF from me and you have the print, just ask. (Hey just asking goes a long way anyway.)  


I'll pay up to $15 for a PDF, more than that is pushing it, but a lot depends on how it looks, and how useful I find the material. I might pay 20 bucks for Septimus or something similar. Although I'm also a huge supporter of print. (PDF is useful, but I love books in my hands.)

I'm not going to pay more than $10 for a PDF.

I haven't bought that many of them, but I prefer having dead tree versions of the books that I read. Hard Copy + PDF included is always an attractive purchase.

I'll go up to $15 but only if I there's no hardcopy available or it's impossible for me to get it. I do compare the total cost of buying, printing and binding the pdf to buying and shipping a hardcopy to estimate how reasonable the pdf's pricing is.

A free pdf with the purchase of a hardcopy is not necessary but much appreciated.

No.  Any pdf with a high enough page count to make it worth more than $10 is too long to read as a pdf.  I can only stare at a screen for so long.

EDIT-Actually, I might if there is no print version for sale and I want it bad enough to print it out myself.

The problem I have with many pdfs is the fucking two column layout. It makes thing very tedious to read on a laptop screen.

I lurvs me some digital content.

But considering the market price for something with infinite supply is a big old zilch, you better make it worth it.  I'm more than willing to pay more than $10 if the content justifies the price -- I do it all the time with digital download PC games -- but have you convinced me to donate more money because of your hard work?  Because after all, the only thing I'm paying for is labor/creative output, not a physical product.  An idea by itself, with no ties to a physical product, needs to be good to be worth something substantial, or should I say, good enough to convince someone that providing the creator with means to create more stuff is worth it.

Most of the time, though, for your standard RPG book, absolutely not.  $10 for a corebook and $5 for smaller supplements are what I'd consider "fair" standard prices, or at least as fair as you can get for a market price that's impossible to calculate.

Fuck no.  If it ain't in print, it ain't worth shit.  PDF (and other ebook formats) are worthless without the hardware and infrastructure to use it, and it's far too open to tampering without your permission or notice; print doesn't have that problem, which is why I insist upon it if folks want my money.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;429614Fuck no.  If it ain't in print, it ain't worth shit.  PDF (and other ebook formats) are worthless without the hardware and infrastructure to use it, and it's far too open to tampering without your permission or notice; print doesn't have that problem, which is why I insist upon it if folks want my money.

Well, the PDF itself isn't worth anything, but the means to obtain it is.

A lot of times you're paying for the convenience to access data easily.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;429614Fuck no.  If it ain't in print, it ain't worth shit.  PDF (and other ebook formats) are worthless without the hardware and infrastructure to use it, and it's far too open to tampering without your permission or notice; print doesn't have that problem, which is why I insist upon it if folks want my money.

Quoted for truth.  It has to either be print or I don't give it the time of day.

Quote from: MonkeyWrench;429382Ten dollars is my preferred max, but I will not pay more than half the hard copy price.

That's more or less my thumbrule. I'd have more Mongoose Traveller books now if they didn't tend to price them closer to 60% of hardcopy cover price.

But I don't really have a hard limit. More a limit of the ratio of dollars to page count (or similar measure of perceived value.)

Only in cases where the product would be invaluable to have as a PDF do I spend more than $10. As I do quite a bit of homebrewing, being able to copy and paste material from the PDF proves to be worth the cost of it only if there is a good chunk that I want for cross-use or conversion.

I have been wanting to get the Ptolus PDF, as there is plenty in the book that I don't want to have to rewrite, but $60 makes my wallet ache as it would eat up 24% of my monthly spending money.

$10 is generally my upper limit. And for that I expect a printer friendly copy (e.g. layers so things like page backgrounds, unnecessary pictures, etc. can be 'turned off' before printing or the like). If I really wanted a game a lot, I might pay over $10, but I'd REALLY have to want it. In no case will I pay more than 50% of the price of the printed copy.

Like most, $15 is my checkpoint, where I ask is it worth it before proceeding or going away.

-clash

Over $10, sure if the PDF is really interesting to me.  Over $15... probably not.  This may change once my tablet shows up but I doubt it.

I've never spent more than $10 on a PDF, but I don't discard the possibility of picking up something above that price range if it really interested me.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;429639That's more or less my thumbrule. I'd have more Mongoose Traveller books now if they didn't tend to price them closer to 60% of hardcopy cover price.

But I don't really have a hard limit. More a limit of the ratio of dollars to page count (or similar measure of perceived value.)

This sounds like a good rule of thumb.

No, I definitely would not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;429744No, I definitely would not.

Why, you bounder! (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=467)

Quote from: Thanlis;429767Why, you bounder! (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=467)

:rotfl:

$10 is pretty much my limit, without exceptional justification (e.g., very high quality artwork and production quality or very high page count) and the $5 range is where I'm willing to do impulse buys.

And if you really want me to pay more than $10 for a PDF, you'd need convince me that you earn more than $10 per copy from the print addition after the cost of printing and distributing a hardcopy is taken into account.  From what I've seen of the economics of publishing a role-playing book (and what I remember from working in book production for a major publisher two decades ago), few people are earning that much after the cost of printing and distributing a hardcopy is taken into account.

$10 is generally my upper limit, and even at that price I'd buy it grudgingly. I have bought a few gaming pdfs that were more than $10, but they were games or books I was absolutely sure I wanted and liked which were unavailable in print. When the price gets up above $5, I begin to think longer and longer before purchasing. Above $10, it can go a long, long time before I finally pull the trigger - Kenzer's "Rustlers of the Night" compilation is something I've wanted to buy for years now, but that $12.99 price stands in the way. It blows my mind to see $30 game pdfs; there is no chance whatsoever I'd pay that for a pdf.

I often spend more than 10 dollars on a pdf. Most of my new purchases are pdfs these days. The reason for that is, that pdfs don't clutter my apartment and over the past 20 years being a gamemaster I collected a lot of clutter.
So for me the pricing of a pdf is not really relevant, i'd pay quite a few bucks for a pdf as long as I want the game not withstanding the format.

Quote from: RPGPundit;429744No, I definitely would not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Thanlis;429767Why, you bounder! (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=467)

Quote from: The Butcher;429818:rotfl:

:D That is funny!

By the way, getting a Kindle DX made pdfs much more attractive to me. Kindle and pdfs don't get along fantastically well - Kindle is greyscale, and you have to fiddle with sizing quite a bit - but boy, did it make it much more convenient and comfortable to read pdfs. I threw all the Dragon Magazine Archive pdfs on it, and I've looked at them more in the time since than I ever did before. e-readers and devices like the iPad make pdfs more and more attractive. Still, the lack of a physical product and the buy-in of having to purchase a Kindle or some-such device makes me less open to buying higher-priced pdfs.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;429871By the way, getting a Kindle DX made pdfs much more attractive to me. Kindle and pdfs don't get along fantastically well - Kindle is greyscale, and you have to fiddle with sizing quite a bit - but boy, did it make it much more convenient and comfortable to read pdfs. I threw all the Dragon Magazine Archive pdfs on it, and I've looked at them more in the time since than I ever did before. e-readers and devices like the iPad make pdfs more and more attractive. Still, the lack of a physical product and the buy-in of having to purchase a Kindle or some-such device makes me less open to buying higher-priced pdfs.

I've been considering getting an e-reader for some time now, since I read a lot of PDFs, not just game-related, but also for work (technical journal papers).

I'm not sure which reader to pick up (Kindle, Nook, iPad or whatever), and I'm on a "wait and see" mode.

Quote from: The Butcher;429873I've been considering getting an e-reader for some time now, since I read a lot of PDFs, not just game-related, but also for work (technical journal papers).

I'm not sure which reader to pick up (Kindle, Nook, iPad or whatever), and I'm on a "wait and see" mode.

The Kindle is in its element with straightforward prose books, the media it was designed to emulate (and replace, I suppose), in the .mobi file format. Anything with charts and graphs and lots of graphics doesn't fare well (though I haven't seen the newest generation of the device).

Quote from: Thanlis;429767Why, you bounder! (http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?products_id=467)

I don't set the prices for the PDFs of books I authored. On the VERY RARE occasions where I was asked about it, I've always tried to advocate for the lowest reasonable prices for the products, having them available in a bundle, etc. etc.

FtA!GN! is an awesome product, a great book that I'm extremely proud of and that I think has not only an incredibly innovative fantasy setting (with concepts that I've never seen in any other regular RPG before:a central kingdom based on renaissance Poland, plausible portrayals of a culture based on the Mongols, plausible portrayals of religions (three major ones anyways: one sort of a Sol Invictus meets Catholic Church monotheism, one a variant on Tantrism (that could be slightly mislabeled "tibetan buddhist"), and one pagan), Gorilla Kingdoms, Dread Gazebos, etc etc.
Plus mechanics for court cases, the random kitchen sink table, and shitloads of other stuff that would be useful in ANY fantasy game, not just FtA!

I personally wouldn't pay over $10 for a book like that, though, not because it wasn't good, but because once you get past the $10 cost level it feels to me like you always might as well get the book; any game you want badly enough to pay over $10 for as a PDF is worth spending $30 (or whatever) to have as a print copy.

But the important thing is, whether you buy it in PDF or Print: get FtA!GN! today (http://www.flyingmice.com/ftagn.html)!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;429914I don't set the prices for the PDFs of books I authored. On the VERY RARE occasions where I was asked about it, I've always tried to advocate for the lowest reasonable prices for the products, having them available in a bundle, etc. etc.

Yeah, I know. It's still kinda funny. But there's no hypocrisy on your part.

On a very rare occasion, I might spend more than $10 on a PDF only.  I think I bought the Pathfinder PDF for $15 bucks rather than shelling out for the print version.

I might be willing to under exceptional circumstances.

Usually, I download a pdf in order to review a game prior to purchasing a dead tree version or because I need it for reference / backup in case of damgae to the physical books. I don't generally play using them.

In order to pay for it, I would need to know it was going to be useful. In order to pay more than $10, I would want it to be an oef that loads quickly, is properly linked, has the ability to be copied amongst my various computers without DRM shenanigans, and for the book itself to be a large crunchy book with lots of content.

Also, as someone who uses a netbook regularly, I'd prefer a move away from the two-column format in pdfs.

I recently considered purchasing a PDF of the new DC Adventures Hero's Handbook, but the $19.95 tag put me off (I already had a print copy). I'm usually only willing to pay $10 or less. I paid $9.95 for Pathfinder and I thought that was steal for the amount of content (576 pages).

I lowered the price of FtA!GN! to ten bucks. Not to get sales from you guys who can't spare another two dollars, but because Pundit is philosophically opposed to the higher price. It doesn't matter anyway, because you all can DL it for free from some torrent site anyway, and Pundit thinks it's cool. Personally, i doubt it would make a difference in one more sale.

As for my other games, I decided long ago not to devalue pdfs. I think they are worth what I charge for them, and if that's too much, I could care less. you can go without. You can download them for free too - they all go up on some suckass torrent within a day or two of release. I mind - I mind like hell - but what does that matter? Dickwads will be dickwads. I put a lot of work into my pdfs - they aren't just some side effect of what I make for print.

I'll be damned, though, if I go chasing some ever shrinking price point. It isn't worth the bother.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;430038I'll be damned, though, if I go chasing some ever shrinking price point. It isn't worth the bother.

Out of curiosity, do you make $12 after printing and distribution costs for the print copies of your books that sell for $12 in PDF?  In other words, if I pay $29.10 for a print copy of StarCluster 3, do you get as much as you'd get if I spend $12 on the PDF?

Quote from: John Morrow;430045Out of curiosity, do you make $12 after printing and distribution costs for the print copies of your books that sell for $12 in PDF?  In other words, if I pay $29.10 for a print copy of StarCluster 3, do you get as much as you'd get if I spend $12 on the PDF?

Approximately.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;430046Approximately.

OK.  Then I think that's a good case for charging $12 for a PDF because, ultimately, I think the PDF price should compensate the person selling the book as much as the print copy minus the printing and distribution costs because that's what's being eliminated as a cost for the seller.

Quote from: Benoist;429380Question says it all: would you pay more than $10 for a PDF?

Personally, once the price of a PDF goes beyond $10, I become very reticent to the purchase. It has to be some damn premium best gaming ever item for me to pay $20+ for a game in electronic format. Not that I haven't done so in the past (Pavis and Big Rubble at $20 CAD comes to mind as my latest PDF purchase), but I've got to REALLY want the item to hit the "purchase" button.

Here's the thing:

If you put it at $10 or up, I may buy it...but I'm not gonna buy it right off...I'm gonna research, research, research, seek out reviews, previews, ask questions...basically, thoroughly vet the purchase...and I've bought more than a couple of PDFs about $10 that were GREAT.

But if it's below $5 and it looks interesting to me at ALL, if I'm not broke I'll probably impulse purchase without giving it much thought.

I pretty much apply that same train of thought to eBooks in general now that I have an eReader.

Quote from: Kinetic;429653Over $10, sure if the PDF is really interesting to me.  Over $15... probably not.  This may change once my tablet shows up but I doubt it.

For me, given how much the laptop has changed my view on PDFs, I may go fully digital if I had something even more portable that handled PDFs well...(the Nook, like the Kindle, is great for novels and such, a little less so for PDFs).

Quote from: flyingmice;430038I lowered the price of FtA!GN! to ten bucks. Not to get sales from you guys who can't spare another two dollars, but because Pundit is philosophically opposed to the higher price. It doesn't matter anyway, because you all can DL it for free from some torrent site anyway, and Pundit thinks it's cool. Personally, i doubt it would make a difference in one more sale.

As for my other games, I decided long ago not to devalue pdfs. I think they are worth what I charge for them, and if that's too much, I could care less. you can go without. You can download them for free too - they all go up on some suckass torrent within a day or two of release. I mind - I mind like hell - but what does that matter? Dickwads will be dickwads. I put a lot of work into my pdfs - they aren't just some side effect of what I make for print.

I'll be damned, though, if I go chasing some ever shrinking price point. It isn't worth the bother.

-clash

First, I pay for the pdfs I own.

Second, don't take any of this personally. When I say $10 is my general limit for pdfs, I'm not saying "lower your prices, or else!" It just means that's as much as I'm usually willing to pay for such a product. If someone selling a pdf doesn't want to go that low, OK. I realize that a lot of work goes into most pdf products, and I can understand that the producers of those pdfs want to make X amount of money off their product. However, just as you aren't going to chase a shrinking price point, neither am I, as a consumer, going to pay more than I'm comfortable with paying for a product just because the maker of that product feels it's worth more. I'm going to pay what I think it's worth to me - how long do I have to work to make the money to buy that product, and is that product worth me working that long for it? I'm not saying that to be argumentative or to disparage you or your products. I'm just telling you what I think as a potential customer.

Quote from: flyingmice;430038I'll be damned, though, if I go chasing some ever shrinking price point. It isn't worth the bother.

Amen. For the record, I think $12 is completely reasonable. If a hardcover RPG costs $50, I think $25 is completely reasonable. 50% of your hardcover price is eaten up by printing costs and the distribution chain, but you've still gotta pay artists and authors and editors and so on.

Just to show I don't talk through my hat, I just purchased FtA and FtA:GN due to the price on FtA:GN being lowered.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;430069First, I pay for the pdfs I own.

Second, don't take any of this personally. When I say $10 is my general limit for pdfs, I'm not saying "lower your prices, or else!" It just means that's as much as I'm usually willing to pay for such a product. If someone selling a pdf doesn't want to go that low, OK. I realize that a lot of work goes into most pdf products, and I can understand that the producers of those pdfs want to make X amount of money off their product. However, just as you aren't going to chase a shrinking price point, neither am I, as a consumer, going to pay more than I'm comfortable with paying for a product just because the maker of that product feels it's worth more. I'm going to pay what I think it's worth to me - how long do I have to work to make the money to buy that product, and is that product worth me working that long for it? I'm not saying that to be argumentative or to disparage you or your products. I'm just telling you what I think as a potential customer.

I'm not taking this personally. I'm taking this as a publisher. RPGers are cheap bastards. That $10 buys you a pack of cigarettes and a coffee. That's the value you set on a pdf game.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;430075I'm not taking this personally. I'm taking this as a publisher. RPGers are cheap bastards. That $10 buys you a pack of cigarettes and a coffee. That's the value you set on a pdf game.

-clash

True, I lowered High Valor to 9.95; primarily to see if it would make a difference. Two months and it may go back up depending on how well it does. I'm willing to pay more for a game than 10USD; when I can, as long as I really like the idea.

Put me down for yet another person who thinks $10-15 should be the limit, regardless of the cost of the published books.  And for old, out of print stuff, I think $5 should be the limit.

I largely dislike pdfs as I find them terribly slow to deal with and I don't like reading off of a computer (even the free ones).

I particularly dislike graphic-heavy pdfs, as those tend to be a guarentee the thing will take forever to load and impossible to print (FFG, I'm looking at you).

Quote from: flyingmice;430075I'm not taking this personally. I'm taking this as a publisher. RPGers are cheap bastards. That $10 buys you a pack of cigarettes and a coffee. That's the value you set on a pdf game.

I'm not so sure that it is "RPGers are cheap bastards" as it is that most people buy far more RPGs than they will ever play. Therefore, the actual value to the average purchaser of any new RPG is fairly low -- which makes the fair market value of RPGs in general much lower than producers would like. (Collectors who want to buy everything are an exception -- however, I don't think many RPG collectors collect PDFs.)

I'm willing to pay more for good material that I will definitely use for an RPG I play than I am for RPG material I am most likely only going to read and file. The latter is worth about as much to me as a reading copy of a novel I'm only going to read once. I imagine this describes many RPGers. From a producer POV, it looks like "being cheap" but it is really just people not being willing to pay much for something that they are most likely only going to look at a few times and never play -- which is really only common sense from a buyer's POV.

Quote from: RandallS;430089I'm not so sure that it is "RPGers are cheap bastards" as it is that most people buy far more RPGs than they will ever play. Therefore, the actual value to the average purchaser of any new RPG is fairly low -- which makes the fair market value of RPGs in general much lower than producers would like. (Collectors who want to buy everything are an exception -- however, I don't think many RPG collectors collect PDFs.)

I'm willing to pay more for good material that I will definitely use for an RPG I play than I am for RPG material I am most likely only going to read and file. The latter is worth about as much to me as a reading copy of a novel I'm only going to read once. I imagine this describes many RPGers. From a producer POV, it looks like "being cheap" but it is really just people not being willing to pay much for something that they are most likely only going to look at a few times and never play -- which is really only common sense from a buyer's POV.

We are not talking here about "people not being willing to pay much for something that they are most likely only going to look at a few times and never play". Christ! I'm in that category! This is the MAXIMUM some people will pay, NO MATTER THE UTILITY. That is a completely different mindset.

-clash

I think a big determining factor here is that we're talking about non-physical products, for one thing, which happen to have physical equivalents going for a certain price in the real world, second.

I think people react to the idea that they're basically paying for a bunch of pixels on the screen, no matter how many weeks/months of work went into producing the file on the author's/publisher's side of things. There's also the fact that, no matter how current the file type is (.PDF, for instance), you're essentially paying for a file that might get lost in computer crashes, become obsolete due to platform or software changes, or corporate marketing, or whatnot (whereas you can still hold a book in your hand 30 years after the purchase).

So there's a whole bunch of feelings that come along with the medium that puts it in contrast with the actual physical equivalent product, and points towards some given value people are willing or not willing to pay for it.

Quote from: flyingmice;430096We are not talking here about "people not being willing to pay much for something that they are most likely only going to look at a few times and never play". Christ! I'm in that category! This is the MAXIMUM some people will pay, NO MATTER THE UTILITY. That is a completely different mindset.

I guess I'm one of those people. $10 is pretty much the maximum I am likely to pay for a PDF because the utility of a PDF is very low to me. If I'm going to run the game, I need to either print it out or buy a hardcopy -- either of which greatly increases my cost of the item for me so the PDF still has to be cheap for me to buy it. Sure, there might be a few PDFs I would pay more than $10 for, but I don't see any at the moment.

Quote from: Benoist;430101I think a big determining factor here is that we're talking about non-physical products, for one thing, which happen to have physical equivalents going for a certain price in the real world, second.

I think people react to the idea that they're basically paying for a bunch of pixels on the screen, no matter how many weeks/months of work went into producing the file on the author's/publisher's side of things. There's also the fact that, no matter how current the file type is (.PDF, for instance), you're essentially paying for a file that might get lost in computer crashes, become obsolete due to platform or software changes, or corporate marketing, or whatnot (whereas you can still hold a book in your hand 30 years after the purchase).

So there's a whole bunch of feelings that come along with the medium that puts it in contrast with the actual physical equivalent product, and points towards some given value people are willing or not willing to pay for it.

And this is true. I think this is wrong thinking, but I do think many people feel this way. Pdfs have their own utility, not just something to be printed out. Pdfs can be searched, hyperlinked, cut and pasted from, and customized/annotated in line as well as printed out. Books cannot do that. Pdfs can be replaced for free with new and corrected text. Books cannot do that. Pdfs are immensely useful on their own terms, and people should stop seeing them as books with the last part - the printing - left out.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;430075I'm not taking this personally. I'm taking this as a publisher. RPGers are cheap bastards. That $10 buys you a pack of cigarettes and a coffee. That's the value you set on a pdf game.

-clash

I don't smoke and I don't drink coffee. I rarely drink beer, wine, or liquor. I buy most of the paperbacks I read at second-hand bookstores. Here's a better comparison: I have a Netflix subscription so for $9/month I can watch tons of streaming movies and as many DVDs as I want - I could, if I wanted, watch one or two movies a day for a month for less than $10 - THAT'S the value I place on a pdf game. I don't think I'm cheap; I just try to maximize my buying power. I don't have money to throw away. EDIT: And that Netflix subscription? Yeah, it's $9/month, but I've probably spent more hours watching movies on it in the past year than I've spent gaming in the last 15 years.

Quote from: flyingmice;430107And this is true. I think this is wrong thinking, but I do think many people feel this way. Pdfs have their own utility, not just something to be printed out. Pdfs can be searched, hyperlinked, cut and pasted from, and customized/annotated in line as well as printed out. Books cannot do that. Pdfs can be replaced for free with new and corrected text. Books cannot do that. Pdfs are immensely useful on their own terms, and people should stop seeing them as books with the last part - the printing - left out.

-clash

I agree with the possibilities the PDF medium offers that the printed book does not, but let's face it, there are a lot of publishers who are completely inept at it, in the sense that there are no hyperlinks, copy/paste functions may be disabled, or worse, you might actually buy a simple straight scan of a printed product instead of a "real" PDF file.

Let's face it, now: many publishers actually DO still think of the PDF as a book without a printing costs added to it. In many cases, this is how the publisher comes to be in the first place. "Whoo hoo, products with costs slashed!" It's still in many cases an afterthought, rather than a product designed on its own merits.

Quote from: Benoist;430109I agree with the possibilities the PDF medium offers that the printed book does not, but let's face it, there are a lot of publishers who are completely inept at it, in the sense that there are no hyperlinks, copy/paste functions may be disabled, or worse, you might actually buy a simple straight scan of a printed product instead of a "real" PDF file.

Let's face it, now: many publishers actually DO still think of the PDF as a book without a printing costs added to it. In many cases, this is how the publisher comes to be in the first place. "Whoo hoo, products with costs slashed!" It's still in many cases an afterthought, rather than a product designed on its own merits.

Again, i agree with you completely. When I said "people should stop seeing them as books with the last part - the printing - left out" I didn't mean just customers. I very much meant publishers too. :D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;430075I'm not taking this personally. I'm taking this as a publisher. RPGers are cheap bastards. That $10 buys you a pack of cigarettes and a coffee. That's the value you set on a pdf game.

-clash

Cigarettes have an artificially inflated value, though.

Valve Software did some research (http://www.next-gen.biz/features/valve-are-games-too-expensive) about the pricing of video-games a ways back, especially the pricing of digital games.  When they first launched their game, Left 4 Dead, it was priced at $50 dollars on PC (Valve's primary focus as far as platform goes).  A few months later, they tried an experiment -- they dropped the price to $25 through their Steam service.  They found that the revenue they generated from the sale exceeded the original launch, despite all of the marketing they had used beforehand to make sure the original launch was as big as possible.

Conclusion?  Economically, 50-60 dollars is too high of a price for the video-game market based on actual sales data, and sales can help boost overall profits if you find a lower price that works.

The data shows that $25 is a "good" price for a game that took dozens, if not hundreds of professional artists, level designers, coders, engineers, QA teams, etc. to create over the course of a few years, costing hundreds of thousands (more likely millions) of dollars in production to make, and god knows how many man-hours or overtime, so I feel perfectly comfortable saying I'd pay $10 for an RPG PDF.

Quote from: Peregrin;430118Cigarettes have an artificially inflated value, though.

The data shows that $25 is a "good" price for a game that took dozens, if not hundreds of professional artists, level designers, coders, engineers, QA teams, etc. to create over the course of a few years, costing hundreds of thousands (more likely millions) of dollars in production to make, and god knows how many man-hours or overtime, so I feel perfectly comfortable saying I'd pay $10 for an RPG PDF.

And computer games have an artificially deflated value, because they sell in the hundreds of thousands of copies, if not in the millions. RPGs sell in the hundreds or maybe thousands of copies. Hell, small press games can sell in the tens of copies. The economics of scale are entirely different. They can amortize the setup costs of producing that first copy over an enormous run. We can't. The market for computer games is four times the size of the market for Hollywood. Just think about that.

-clash

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;430108And that Netflix subscription? Yeah, it's $9/month, but I've probably spent more hours watching movies on it in the past year than I've spent gaming in the last 15 years.

No kidding.  In the last month, I watched around 8 movies and 60 tv episodes via Netflix.

Gaming-wise, I get about 3 hours every two weeks, or around 80 hours for the entire year.

Quote from: Benoist;430109The data shows that $25 is a "good" price for a game that took dozens, if not hundreds of professional artists, level designers, coders, engineers, QA teams, etc. to create over the course of a few years, costing hundreds of thousands (more likely millions) of dollars in production to make, and god knows how many man-hours or overtime, so I feel perfectly comfortable saying I'd pay $10 for an RPG PDF.

I agree.  Boardgames are another area (and I'm talking niche boardgames here, not Monopoly) where you get a whole lot more for your dollar than in your average RPG, yet the production costs would have to be as much or higher.

I've always thought the complaining about gamers being "cheap" was a bunch of BS (Old Geezer loved to pull that one on TBP any time anyone complained about a product's price).

If anything, RPGs tend to be quite overpriced compared to equivalents in other markets.  Bookwise - I can get a 725 page technical manual and a comic book full of art for a combined total of under $50.  Good luck getting a deal like that in RPGland, where Mongoose has a tiny 100 page book going for $25, or for $40 you can get a whopping 200 pages.

Quote from: Benoist;430109I agree with the possibilities the PDF medium offers that the printed book does not, but let's face it, there are a lot of publishers who are completely inept at it, in the sense that there are no hyperlinks, copy/paste functions may be disabled, or worse, you might actually buy a simple straight scan of a printed product instead of a "real" PDF file.

I'd say that was the far majority of pdfs in the market.  I have yet to see many good pdfs.

Quote from: flyingmice;430116Again, i agree with you completely. When I said "people should stop seeing them as books with the last part - the printing - left out" I didn't mean just customers. I very much meant publishers too. :D

It'll be interesting to see if attitudes change with ebooks gaining popularity (some estimates place ebooks as being 80%+ of the market by 2015).  Currently, ebooks appear to be priced more or less like physical books from my cursory glance (at least, for stuff like technical manuals).

Quote from: flyingmice;430121The market for computer games is four times the size of the market for Hollywood. Just think about that.

-clash

Not for non-MMO PC games -- it's a shrinking market, actually -- consoles are where the growth is, and Steam is a PC-only software platform.  

The Steam research includes small-press indie games as well -- in fact small-press titles routinely reach the top ten sellers list when discounted -- we're talking niche-of-the-niche and unknown games that would never survive retail, let alone a flea-market.  These games are also labors-of-love, by one to maybe a half-dozen people, some putting their social life on hold for years to finish these projects, some investing thousands of their own income into it, which inevitably take far more technical and artistic skill to complete than a tabletop RPG, and yet they're willing to sell their games for sub-$20 prices.

Again, I'm perfectly comfortable saying I'll pay $10 for a tabletop RPG PDF, and I don't think it's cheap.  The economies of scale are different, but the value to me, the consumer, is relative to other forms of entertainment because of substitution factors.

See, when you eliminate the physical product, all I'm really paying for is the skill and output of the creator.  I'm funding your projects, not buying a book, because we've essentially eliminated the middleman.  So, why not place a value based on the relative quality of output, the skill required to create it (scarcity of skilled labor) and its utility?  After all, doctors get paid more than mechanics.

This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;430160This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

RPGPundit

Kind of a loaded question, because it all depends on the content.

Whatever. I have been in this business since 2002. Don't listen to me because I must know nothing. Bitch about how much pdfs cost. Rail against The Man! Assume economies of scale mean dick. I won't bother arguing. Assume that means you are right. I don't care. You all don't want pdfs that cost more than 10 bucks. You all also have all the rpgs you will ever need. Why am I bothering? This is just stupid.

-clash

This topic has me curious as I seem to be in the minority by far.
I just went through my collection to see what the most expensive pdf RPG I own cost. It was Rogue Trader at just shy of 23 euros or 30US $ for those of you across the pond. I'd gladly pay that again and would have paid the same for my copy of houses of the blooded, wild talents and various other games.
I do feel that especially houses of the blooded is severly mispriced at 5$ and should cost lots more (granted, it has very little art, but it is a great and useable product).
I feel that a well linked pdf has more utility than a book, because I can access rules very quickly and I can access my games wherever I am as long as there is an internet connection, thanks to google docs.

If post-scarcity economics worked, media companies wouldn't be moving towards a service/subscription-model.  When information is easily copied and distributed, the information itself isn't valuable, but the means to attain it and the source are.  If you have an easier or better solution to post-scarcity economics, I'm sure there are tons of economics experts who would love to hear it -- the music companies sure could use some good ideas.

In otherwords, clash, you're what is valuable, not the PDF.  How you market your value and skill and make money in a post-scarcity environment is another thing altogether.  You can rely on people being honest and willing to send cashflow your way, but most evidence points to that not being very practical, because people, while they tend to act rationally when it comes to economics, are pretty shortsighted and don't see the long-term effects of choosing not to pay.

No matter what, though, without a limited supply, you can't calculate a real market value for something.  The most you can do is guess, and it's always going to be subjective.

Quote from: jgants;430126It'll be interesting to see if attitudes change with ebooks gaining popularity (some estimates place ebooks as being 80%+ of the market by 2015).  Currently, ebooks appear to be priced more or less like physical books from my cursory glance (at least, for stuff like technical manuals).

Yes, for technical manuals.

For novels and the like, it is incredibly easy to find really great deals on ebooks that are generally only matched by bargain bin diving at used bookstores...(and I only have to carry my Nook around, not a satchel full of books).

And a growing number of smaller name authors are making far more money going the self-published ebook route than selling through a publisher (for the ones that actually got picked up by a publisher).

Quote from: brettmb;430162Kind of a loaded question, because it all depends on the content.

Absolutely...this is why the only HARD limit I set for any purchase is "what can I actually afford?"...from there, I judge items on their own perceived merits, including - but not limited to - their format.

Although I will absolutely bargain hunt in every single case, in order to stretch my dollar as far as it can go...=)

Quote from: RPGPundit;430160This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

RPGPundit

It's an interesting question. Maybe we need a new poll to compare results?

Quote from: RPGPundit;430160This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out. This is compounded by the fact now we have ebook readers that just only now been having an impact.

The best one can do is set initial price, try to build an audience and go from there. What may work for me, may not work for you. I doubt I could sell many $35 products, but I am sure I can sell a lot of a $10 product. FlyingMice will have a different baseline, as well as the Pundit, and so on.

At first there will be issues because nobody is going to buy $1,000 worth of art for a product that only profits a $1,000.  But over time the market will sort things out and somebody, somewhere is going to figure out how to deliver quality products at whatever price people will pay for PDFs/ebooks.  

The most likely result, i am guessing this, is that because the internet makes communications so easy is that there will be an extremely stratified and diverse marketplace for all the traditional publishing roles.

In the past, with printed books as the way to get published then only those artists, writers, and editors good enough for the investment would be involved in the published work.  Others would work in related fields (say advertising) until they got the attention of a publisher who felt they were good enough.

Now with the advance of technology now you can get work from the get go. But as a person with no reputation you will paid peanuts. But if you are good enough then as you build your reputation you will get more work and eventually be able to make a living or a at the least increase your income substantially.

And some will just stop at a certain level having neither the time or the talent to continue. The result will a group of people producing content at various price points including free and at each price points there will be trade offs.

It means a lot of work for everybody involved. You can't be a passive talent just being handed jobs to do and paid for it. You have to actively go out and be known, you have to do the research to get the quality you want at the price you can afford for the demand you think you will get for your product.

The difference between the past and today is that now if you do put the work into it, you can get some money for it. There isn't this big fence you have to hurdle in order to sell your stuff.

For me, the question forgets to ask an important questions: why would you only spend $10 on a pdf?

If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book (though, I would like unlimited reproductions, so I can put it on ANY AND ALL computers I own, AND WILL OWN IN THE FUTURE; screw you, 5 copy max).

The problem isn't "I prefer dead tree to pdf", but that pdf hasn't become as user friendly and ubiquitous as dead tree.

Which may change, in the next year or two. A lot of companies are supposedly gearing up to release their own Tablet PC's, which may mean we'll see a Buyer's market.

Quote from: Novastar;430350If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book.

How do you calculate the MSRP of an item that has potentially limitless supply?  $50 for a digital document is absolutely ludicrous, IMO, since in the normal market that includes all factors of production, shipping, etc.

I think the real question is, how do we go about compensating the creator for their time and effort in a practical and enforceable way that doesn't rely on economic principles better suited to physical goods?

Quote from: Peregrin;430364How do you calculate the MSRP of an item that has potentially limitless supply?  $50 for a digital document is absolutely ludicrous, IMO, since in the normal market that includes all factors of production, shipping, etc.

I think the real question is, how do we go about compensating the creator for their time and effort in a practical and enforceable way that doesn't rely on economic principles better suited to physical goods?

I figure the counter to that is that you can print a copy of your pdf at any time (I favor watermarks, for this reason), and the fact you can have multiple copies on different computers, instead of a single physical copy, as the swing for the higher price point.

Quote from: brettmb;430162Kind of a loaded question, because it all depends on the content.

Certainly it does; and I bet that everyone who says "i'd never pay more than $10 for a PDF" would all theoretically have some ideal product, that if no other option existed for them aside from getting the PDF, would pay way more than that.
But the real question is whether there is a general point where "on principle", excepting such questions of a "dream product", there's a "cutoff" where the majority would accept to pay, and past that the majority would balk.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmice;430165Whatever. I have been in this business since 2002. Don't listen to me because I must know nothing. Bitch about how much pdfs cost. Rail against The Man! Assume economies of scale mean dick. I won't bother arguing. Assume that means you are right. I don't care. You all don't want pdfs that cost more than 10 bucks. You all also have all the rpgs you will ever need. Why am I bothering? This is just stupid.

-clash

I don't know if that's the right attitude for a publisher to approach this thread.  I think this thread (or other investigations along these lines) could be IMMENSELY useful to you, and you could in turn be immensely useful to this thread.

If you find out tomorrow that the point at which most people won't pay for a PDF is about $5 lower, or alternately $5 higher, than what you normally charge for a PDF, that would be a valuable piece of business information for you.

In turn, you and the other publishers reading this thread could have a lot to offer it: have you, Clash, in your experience found there to be a "sweet spot" of PDF sales where you are likely to get considerably more sales than if you put the same PDF even a couple of bucks higher? Have you ever lowered the price of a PDF and suddenly experienced a jump in sales as a result? Or alternately, has this never happened, and is it your position that in fact there is no definable "sweet spot" of a price point for PDF sales?

RPGPundit

Quote from: estar;430239I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out. This is compounded by the fact now we have ebook readers that just only now been having an impact.

That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;430380That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

As I said earlier, they would be for me. Since apparently a Nook will read .pdf files, I may well start buying more of them once/if I get one, since I'll have them all at my fingertips without the storage problems of physical books.

Quote from: Werekoala;430389As I said earlier, they would be for me. Since apparently a Nook will read .pdf files, I may well start buying more of them once/if I get one, since I'll have them all at my fingertips without the storage problems of physical books.

I've loaded Wu Xing on my Nook, and it does alright...but Wu Xing is not a graphically intensive book.

That said, a lot of "printer friendly" PDFs should work fine on it.

The Nook Color, on the other hand, should have even fewer limitations in that regard.

Quote from: Novastar;430350(though, I would like unlimited reproductions, so I can put it on ANY AND ALL computers I own, AND WILL OWN IN THE FUTURE; screw you, 5 copy max).

Oh hell yes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430380That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

Yes but.....

Yes is that ebook readers will make PDFs more acceptable by making reading them little different than a regular book.

the but is because it is now a digital file and subject to the same pricing pressures as all digital media like video and music files.

And ebook readers are just now at the beginning of the technology curve and who knows how it will all play out.

For example the entirety of Project Gutenberg can easily be downloaded and read just as easily as ordinary books. I read several classics on my kindle that I hadn't had access too before.


As for the specific question of "has it had an impact on sales?" Is say it is that is too soon too tell. I had one customer tell me that Majestic Wilderlands look OK on his Kindle DX.

Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

I will say that since the last time I talked about my kindle (which you get for $139 now) I played with PDFs on the iPad. And it is pretty darn good. The ability to use the touch screen to scroll around and manipulate the book and image is unbelievable.

I would buy a $10+ pdf to help support the OSR. It would have to be good, I dont have enough spare cash to throw around, but if it looked good and had good reviews, I would buy it.

Quote from: estar;430460Yes but.....

Yes is that ebook readers will make PDFs more acceptable by making reading them little different than a regular book.

the but is because it is now a digital file and subject to the same pricing pressures as all digital media like video and music files.

And ebook readers are just now at the beginning of the technology curve and who knows how it will all play out.

For example the entirety of Project Gutenberg can easily be downloaded and read just as easily as ordinary books. I read several classics on my kindle that I hadn't had access too before.


As for the specific question of "has it had an impact on sales?" Is say it is that is too soon too tell. I had one customer tell me that Majestic Wilderlands look OK on his Kindle DX.

Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

I will say that since the last time I talked about my kindle (which you get for $139 now) I played with PDFs on the iPad. And it is pretty darn good. The ability to use the touch screen to scroll around and manipulate the book and image is unbelievable.

See, the main reason I haven't gotten a Kindle (even the spiffy one is less than $200US), is I'm not sure how well it would display RPG pdf's, which would be the major reason I'd buy one; reduce 2 bookshelves of RPG's down to some memory sticks.

Quote from: Novastar;430376I figure the counter to that is that you can print a copy of your pdf at any time (I favor watermarks, for this reason), and the fact you can have multiple copies on different computers, instead of a single physical copy, as the swing for the higher price point.

But those are things you place value in, which might not matter so much to another consumer.  I could say that a physical book is convenient because it doesn't require expensive batteries for me to use, but that's a matter of taste rather than something concerning the means and costs of production.  The majority of consumers would have to share your own opinion for the higher price-point to work.

Quote from: Novastar;430495See, the main reason I haven't gotten a Kindle (even the spiffy one is less than $200US), is I'm not sure how well it would display RPG pdf's, which would be the major reason I'd buy one; reduce 2 bookshelves of RPG's down to some memory sticks.

The iPad is the best way to go at the moment. Other tablets may come along that do the job as well but you really need the touch interface for the smaller screens. The Kindle DX works as well but both are high priced. At least with the Kindle 3 I have I can see something useful compared to my Kindle 1.

While it hasn't work so well for my RPG  library for my regular library the Kindle 3 is four stars. At $139 it is the right price.

Quote from: estar;430460Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

All of this is completely true.

So when they do, though, will that mean people will then be willing to pay MORE for a PDF?

Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Novastar;430350If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book.

The problem isn't "I prefer dead tree to pdf", but that pdf hasn't become as user friendly and ubiquitous as dead tree.

Try to put your e-book up on eBay.
Try to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.
Try to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.
Try to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

Quote from: estar;430239I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out.

Right. People do so much more with their print copies than just reading them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430836So when they do, though, will that mean people will then be willing to pay MORE for a PDF?

Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

Seems about right. The new Arcade Fire album costs $10 on Amazon, and has 16 tracks. If you buy it as MP3s you'll pay $8. So by that guideline, we ought to be paying around 80% of the hardcopy cost. Maybe that's too high. ;)

Quote from: Thanlis;430889Seems about right. The new Arcade Fire album costs $10 on Amazon, and has 16 tracks. If you buy it as MP3s you'll pay $8. So by that guideline, we ought to be paying around 80% of the hardcopy cost. Maybe that's too high. ;)

On the other hand, printing costs are always listed as one of the highest (if not the highest) factor for pricing these books.  That was never the case for music - we all knew a CD itself cost a couple of cents per unit for the producer even back in the 90s.

And sure, technical manuals, textbooks, and so on will still be expensive because of the expert writing.  But again, RPGs are anything but expert writing.  

That's another reason gamers balk at high prices - we know for a fact that most games are produced by amateurs; something we could, in fact, do ourselves.  Which is not to discount the hard work, dedication, or skill by the people who do end up creating them; just pointing out that the expertise to do so is not so far out of reach for the average person as it is, for example, to create good music, movies, or video games.  The ability to write a RPG is simply not that scarce of a supply.

Quote from: jgants;430921On the other hand, printing costs are always listed as one of the highest (if not the highest) factor for pricing these books.  That was never the case for music - we all knew a CD itself cost a couple of cents per unit for the producer even back in the 90s.

http://www.newcyberian.com/regcdrom.html

Thirty cents a CD in quantities of 10,000 or more. 75 cents per CD if you want it in a jewel case. So around 7.5% of the real cost is in production. Actually, let's stretch this one out a bit further -- let's say our print run is 3,000 copies, which would be very good for an RPG these days. At those costs, it's 83 cents per CD, or 8% of the real cost.

I'll assume we're not gonna use Lulu to print our gaming book, cause whoa expensive. That's why I said 3,000, actually -- you can get into offset printing at that point. Gorham Printing, chosen for no better reason than that they're near the top of my Google search and they have an instant price quote widget, says that'll cost $3.10 per book for a 256 page softcover, b/w inside, color cover. I think I'm charging around $40 for that book. Adamant Entertainment charges $35 for a softcover of Mars: Savage Worlds at 180 pages, so sure.

Those costs per unit are pretty damned close, percentage-wise.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;430875Try to put your e-book up on eBay.

I've never sold a dead tree book on eBay either.

QuoteTry to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.

Where they typically get stolen within a month.

QuoteTry to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.

Again, theft discourages me from donating.

QuoteTry to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

My son or daughter have full access to my library, no matter if it's dead tree or digital.

Look, my point isn't "PDF's should cost as much as dead tree, right now."

My point is, if PDF's become as useful and ubiqutous as dead tree is now, I have no problem paying as much for a PDF then as much as I do for dead tree right now.

I doubt that digital will ever be completely anagolous to dead tree, the same as an orange will never taste like an apple, but I can still eat either one. At some point, PDF will be as easy and useful to me, as a dead tree book. And at that point, I see little reason why I wouldn't pay as much to get that information, especially as publishers may stop needing to pay for books, but need to pay programmers instead.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;430875Try to put your e-book up on eBay.
Try to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.
Try to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.
Try to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

This is why I either a) make as certain as I can of an e-purchase before I make it, or b) wait for impulse pricing. Having bought a Nook late last year, I look at this with every book I buy, just as I do with PDFs. Some authors/companies have a higher default purchase point than others, for instance.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430836Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

That's often more than I'm willing to pay. I bought a copy of the Time-Life Treasury of Christmas: Christmas Spirit 2 CD Set from Amazon for a bit less than $15.00 a few weeks ago. There were 24 songs. At 99 cents a song that would have cost me almost $24.00. Not nearly as good a deal as the CDs.

I can't really think of a PDF product where I'd pay more than ten bucks for. Anything beyond that is generally enough to scare me off.

I can't speak for gamers in general, but I am, indeed, a cheap bastard.
I had to pay for a year of my undergrad and it took me a year afterward to pay it off. During that year I stopped buying everything. After the year was up I had money again, only somehow I'd lost the ability to spend it. I look at games and books and such, but virtually everything, no matter how appealing goes back on the shelf. The sickness has spread to used books now too. I just spent the last of my amazon xmass money, and I doubt I will be able to bring myself to buy anything until I get more gift $. Every time i reach for my wallet it's like that scene in the Wizard of Oz when the wicked witch tries to take the ruby slippers from Dorothy.  
It's a fucking sickness.

I can't read that much information off a screen, so anything that's going to cost a lot as a pdf is going to be useless to me as it's invariably too long. I don't own an ipad or whatever.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;431169I can't read that much information off a screen, so anything that's going to cost a lot as a pdf is going to be useless to me as it's invariably too long. I don't own an ipad or whatever.

I feel the exact same way. I bought the Haiti bundle but everything I got down from that  is just gathering virtual dust on my computer. I don't own an ipad or something simliar, so I don't know if such a tool would change that. But reading on pdfs on computer screens has little appeal to me.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;431175I feel the exact same way. I bought the Haiti bundle but everything I got down from that  is just gathering virtual dust on my computer. I don't own an ipad or something simliar, so I don't know if such a tool would change that. But reading on pdfs on computer screens has little appeal to me.

Reading PDFs on computer screens is very close to being actively unpleasant, IMHO.

Quote from: Thanlis;431187Reading PDFs on computer screens is very close to being actively unpleasant, IMHO.

Too true.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Thanlis;431187Reading PDFs on computer screens is very close to being actively unpleasant, IMHO.

It is a different story on a landscape oriented monitor. But I vastly prefer my Kindle Screen for causal reading.

I think they're researching screens now that use colored oils instead of LCs.  Eventually they're hoping to get it to print-quality type display without the backlight fatigue issues.

As far as normal screens go, the best thing you can do is use a widescreen and actually adjust it when you're only doing PDF reading.  Most screens have different modes you can pre-program and change by clicking a single button on the display.  Helps prevent eye fatigue and makes it much more comfortable when you're doing a lot of reading.

$1 is way way way TOO MUCH for electronic ephemera.

I don't want to print the damn book myself.

I'd rather pay 50 or 60 bucks for a hardcover, then at least I wouldn't suck for having PDFs I have to actually use.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;429639That's more or less my thumbrule. I'd have more Mongoose Traveller books now if they didn't tend to price them closer to 60% of hardcopy cover price.

But I don't really have a hard limit. More a limit of the ratio of dollars to page count (or similar measure of perceived value.)

Most of MGP books are like 109 pages for $32+ dollars for print I have seen and they still want like $24 for a damn PDF, they have to be outta their freakin' minds.  I like Traveller too but I wont pay those kinda prices print or pdf.

Quote from: flyingcircus;431429Most of MGP books are like 109 pages for $32+ dollars for print I have seen and they still want like $24 for a damn PDF, they have to be outta their freakin' minds.  I like Traveller too but I wont pay those kinda prices print or pdf.

What else they going to do? The price for editing, writing, and arts hasn't changed between PDF and Print. And if you are a publisher using offset for your print runs then the printing cost per book is only a few buck. The problem for us small press guys i that you need to print hundreds and thousands of copies to get that type of per unit price.

But is the $32 for print and $24 for PDF a fair difference? In an ideal world the price for a PDF should be the wholesale cost - the cost of the per unit print run. I think it is foolish for a publisher to try to make more profit per PDF than they do per print in this age of internet. Too many people know roughly how the distribution system work and will feel ripped off by excessive pricing.

However one thing that will drive everybody crazy in a digital publishing world is the idea of a price for time. That publishers and authors will charge more to a book on the day a release and gradually reduce it down to an evergreen price.  The trick of course is finding the right prices. Because if you get too greedy then you have a fall off as everybody waits for the price to come down. But it is known for popular works fans will pay a premium to be the first to have it.

Quote from: estar;431442But is the $32 for print and $24 for PDF a fair difference? In an ideal world the price for a PDF should be the wholesale cost - the cost of the per unit print run.

But isn't that considerably less for a PDF than Print?  I mean, for a PDF at the most your "cost" is what it cost you in terms of time (or possibly money if you didn't do it yourself) for the writing, editing and art.  And if that cost is also being factored into the print cost, then aren't you basically double-dipping?  If you are doing a print run, or even PoD, shouldn't that make your PDF cost essentially zero?

QuoteHowever one thing that will drive everybody crazy in a digital publishing world is the idea of a price for time. That publishers and authors will charge more to a book on the day a release and gradually reduce it down to an evergreen price.  The trick of course is finding the right prices. Because if you get too greedy then you have a fall off as everybody waits for the price to come down. But it is known for popular works fans will pay a premium to be the first to have it.

Hmm, interesting point.

Quote from: RPGPundit;431579But isn't that considerably less for a PDF than Print?  I mean, for a PDF at the most your "cost" is what it cost you in terms of time (or possibly money if you didn't do it yourself) for the writing, editing and art.  And if that cost is also being factored into the print cost, then aren't you basically double-dipping?  If you are doing a print run, or even PoD, shouldn't that make your PDF cost essentially zero?

By that line of reasoning, if someone wants to license your game for translation, you should give it to them for free. Likewise, second printings of the game should be sold at cost.

Quote from: estar;431442What else they going to do? The price for editing, writing, and arts hasn't changed between PDF and Print. And if you are a publisher using offset for your print runs then the printing cost per book is only a few buck. The problem for us small press guys i that you need to print hundreds and thousands of copies to get that type of per unit price.

But is the $32 for print and $24 for PDF a fair difference? In an ideal world the price for a PDF should be the wholesale cost - the cost of the per unit print run. I think it is foolish for a publisher to try to make more profit per PDF than they do per print in this age of internet. Too many people know roughly how the distribution system work and will feel ripped off by excessive pricing.

However one thing that will drive everybody crazy in a digital publishing world is the idea of a price for time. That publishers and authors will charge more to a book on the day a release and gradually reduce it down to an evergreen price.  The trick of course is finding the right prices. Because if you get too greedy then you have a fall off as everybody waits for the price to come down. But it is known for popular works fans will pay a premium to be the first to have it.

What are they going to do, well for starters add more pages or lower the cost a bit, I can't see $32.00 for 109 pages in paperback, it just doesn't fly, it's greed, nothing more and don't feed me the line of BS that it's not, I know better.  A paperback 109 page book isn't worth more than say $20.00 at most.

Quote from: Thanlis;431187Reading PDFs on computer screens is very close to being actively unpleasant, IMHO.

an effective anti-piracy tool :D

I'd pay a £1 for a pdf. Whether I will buy anythign from Adamant I don't know. perhaps others will follow suit. But size is important.

Quote from: estar;431442What else they going to do? The price for editing, writing, and arts hasn't changed between PDF and Print.

That may be true, but I think the mistake is in designing an rpg as a book first (at least) and then porting that over to a 200+ page pdf, in all it's RAM chugging full colour glory.

Quote from: estar;431442What else they going to do? The price for editing, writing, and arts hasn't changed between PDF and Print.

Is that really that much cost, though?  

I mean, isn't the standard scale wage for RPG writing like 2 cents a word or something?

As for art, surely it must be practically free?  The average Mongoose Traveller book couldn't have more than $50 total worth of art in them, if that.

And editing?  Please - this is Mongoose we're talking about.  Does Mongoose even use an editor?  If they do and he makes more than minimum wage, he's being overpaid.

Quote from: Thanlis;431594By that line of reasoning, if someone wants to license your game for translation, you should give it to them for free. Likewise, second printings of the game should be sold at cost.

No, not at cost.  First of all, a second, third fourth or fifth physical printing of a physical book is still going to have costs of printing associated with it EVERY TIME. There's no moment where there stops being a new cost to print it.  
That cost may be reduced compared to the first printing because with the first printing you have to pay for a bunch of other things besides the actual printing costs.  That means that, in theory, if you wanted to, you could set the price point of the 2nd or 3rd printing cheaper than that of the 1st printing, and still make a similar profit, because your costs are lower.  Following me so far?

With PDFs, after the initial "first printing" phase (really after you have sold enough PDF to cover the costs of paying for your writer, artists, and editor), your costs go on to become ZERO, FOREVER.  You could make a million billion copies of a PDF and the cost would still be zero.  I guess you could try to factor in "server fees" for the website you're selling the pdf from or something, but that would be basically it; the cost would be infinitesmal after paying off the costs of the initial creation of the product.

Therefore, unlike paper printing, with PDFs the overall price SHOULD be lower.

To focus on your other point, if someone wants to do a translation of my game, in order to produce for sale, I would charge them a fee of my choosing; but if I was claiming that fee was meant to pay off my "costs of printing" when they're the ones who'd be doing the printing if any, would make me look like a bit of douchebag, wouldn't it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;431731No, not at cost.  First of all, a second, third fourth or fifth physical printing of a physical book is still going to have costs of printing associated with it EVERY TIME. There's no moment where there stops being a new cost to print it.  
That cost may be reduced compared to the first printing because with the first printing you have to pay for a bunch of other things besides the actual printing costs.  That means that, in theory, if you wanted to, you could set the price point of the 2nd or 3rd printing cheaper than that of the 1st printing, and still make a similar profit, because your costs are lower.  Following me so far?

Yes. That's what "at cost" means. Selling it at the cost of printing it.

QuoteWith PDFs, after the initial "first printing" phase (really after you have sold enough PDF to cover the costs of paying for your writer, artists, and editor), your costs go on to become ZERO, FOREVER.

Also true.

You seem to be arguing that there's a fixed profit anyone should be allowed to make from their game, no matter how successful it is. Is that accurate?

Quote from: jgants;431664As for art, surely it must be practically free?  The average Mongoose Traveller book couldn't have more than $50 total worth of art in them, if that.

I don't have Traveller, but unless it's all recycled, I'd imagine it's more than that. I'd think a decent cover alone would be more than $100.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;431746I don't have Traveller, but unless it's all recycled, I'd imagine it's more than that. I'd think a decent cover alone would be more than $100.

Well, I'm being somewhat hyperbolic in my post, but Traveller uses extremely minimal art as part of its style.

The covers are all text, no art.  The average supplement has maybe 20 small art pieces in it, none of which are overly detailed.

Quote from: Thanlis;431739You seem to be arguing that there's a fixed profit anyone should be allowed to make from their game, no matter how successful it is. Is that accurate?

Not at all; if a game is wildly successful, then they could name their price.  Most games aren't.  What I'm saying is as a general statement of common sense, it make sense to price PDFs low, because we know that the profit margin is high due to the reality of not being a print product.

Good business sense is not "price your product as high as you can possibly milk"; good business sense is "price your product as close as you possibly can to the point where the most possible people will buy it for the best possible profit".

If you sell 3 pdfs at $20 profit each, or 30 pdfs at $5 profit each, the latter is a better overall gain to you than the former.  Likewise, if you'd end up selling 50 pdfs for $1 profit each (because that difference of reducing the price $8 only nets you 20 more customers), then your best bet is to sell them for $5 profit.

The real answer is to find the "sweet spot". Certainly, for some products that sweet spot might be higher than others.

RPGPundit

Well, it looks like DTRPG has upped the ante for those of you calling $10 your max. A ton of RPG core books for $11 each:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/rpg_newyear.php?affiliate_id=710

Quote from: RPGPundit;431807Not at all; if a game is wildly successful, then they could name their price.  Most games aren't.  What I'm saying is as a general statement of common sense, it make sense to price PDFs low, because we know that the profit margin is high due to the reality of not being a print product.

What if your sales are divided 90% PDF and 10% print?

Quote from: Thanlis;431906What if your sales are divided 90% PDF and 10% print?

Then an important question to ask is WHY are my sales 90% PDF?

RPGPundit