I would buy a $10+ pdf to help support the OSR. It would have to be good, I dont have enough spare cash to throw around, but if it looked good and had good reviews, I would buy it.

Quote from: estar;430460Yes but.....

Yes is that ebook readers will make PDFs more acceptable by making reading them little different than a regular book.

the but is because it is now a digital file and subject to the same pricing pressures as all digital media like video and music files.

And ebook readers are just now at the beginning of the technology curve and who knows how it will all play out.

For example the entirety of Project Gutenberg can easily be downloaded and read just as easily as ordinary books. I read several classics on my kindle that I hadn't had access too before.


As for the specific question of "has it had an impact on sales?" Is say it is that is too soon too tell. I had one customer tell me that Majestic Wilderlands look OK on his Kindle DX.

Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

I will say that since the last time I talked about my kindle (which you get for $139 now) I played with PDFs on the iPad. And it is pretty darn good. The ability to use the touch screen to scroll around and manipulate the book and image is unbelievable.

See, the main reason I haven't gotten a Kindle (even the spiffy one is less than $200US), is I'm not sure how well it would display RPG pdf's, which would be the major reason I'd buy one; reduce 2 bookshelves of RPG's down to some memory sticks.

Quote from: Novastar;430376I figure the counter to that is that you can print a copy of your pdf at any time (I favor watermarks, for this reason), and the fact you can have multiple copies on different computers, instead of a single physical copy, as the swing for the higher price point.

But those are things you place value in, which might not matter so much to another consumer.  I could say that a physical book is convenient because it doesn't require expensive batteries for me to use, but that's a matter of taste rather than something concerning the means and costs of production.  The majority of consumers would have to share your own opinion for the higher price-point to work.

Quote from: Novastar;430495See, the main reason I haven't gotten a Kindle (even the spiffy one is less than $200US), is I'm not sure how well it would display RPG pdf's, which would be the major reason I'd buy one; reduce 2 bookshelves of RPG's down to some memory sticks.

The iPad is the best way to go at the moment. Other tablets may come along that do the job as well but you really need the touch interface for the smaller screens. The Kindle DX works as well but both are high priced. At least with the Kindle 3 I have I can see something useful compared to my Kindle 1.

While it hasn't work so well for my RPG  library for my regular library the Kindle 3 is four stars. At $139 it is the right price.

Quote from: estar;430460Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

All of this is completely true.

So when they do, though, will that mean people will then be willing to pay MORE for a PDF?

Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Novastar;430350If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book.

The problem isn't "I prefer dead tree to pdf", but that pdf hasn't become as user friendly and ubiquitous as dead tree.

Try to put your e-book up on eBay.
Try to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.
Try to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.
Try to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

Quote from: estar;430239I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out.

Right. People do so much more with their print copies than just reading them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430836So when they do, though, will that mean people will then be willing to pay MORE for a PDF?

Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

Seems about right. The new Arcade Fire album costs $10 on Amazon, and has 16 tracks. If you buy it as MP3s you'll pay $8. So by that guideline, we ought to be paying around 80% of the hardcopy cost. Maybe that's too high.

Quote from: Thanlis;430889Seems about right. The new Arcade Fire album costs $10 on Amazon, and has 16 tracks. If you buy it as MP3s you'll pay $8. So by that guideline, we ought to be paying around 80% of the hardcopy cost. Maybe that's too high.

On the other hand, printing costs are always listed as one of the highest (if not the highest) factor for pricing these books.  That was never the case for music - we all knew a CD itself cost a couple of cents per unit for the producer even back in the 90s.

And sure, technical manuals, textbooks, and so on will still be expensive because of the expert writing.  But again, RPGs are anything but expert writing.  

That's another reason gamers balk at high prices - we know for a fact that most games are produced by amateurs; something we could, in fact, do ourselves.  Which is not to discount the hard work, dedication, or skill by the people who do end up creating them; just pointing out that the expertise to do so is not so far out of reach for the average person as it is, for example, to create good music, movies, or video games.  The ability to write a RPG is simply not that scarce of a supply.

Quote from: jgants;430921On the other hand, printing costs are always listed as one of the highest (if not the highest) factor for pricing these books.  That was never the case for music - we all knew a CD itself cost a couple of cents per unit for the producer even back in the 90s.

http://www.newcyberian.com/regcdrom.html

Thirty cents a CD in quantities of 10,000 or more. 75 cents per CD if you want it in a jewel case. So around 7.5% of the real cost is in production. Actually, let's stretch this one out a bit further -- let's say our print run is 3,000 copies, which would be very good for an RPG these days. At those costs, it's 83 cents per CD, or 8% of the real cost.

I'll assume we're not gonna use Lulu to print our gaming book, cause whoa expensive. That's why I said 3,000, actually -- you can get into offset printing at that point. Gorham Printing, chosen for no better reason than that they're near the top of my Google search and they have an instant price quote widget, says that'll cost $3.10 per book for a 256 page softcover, b/w inside, color cover. I think I'm charging around $40 for that book. Adamant Entertainment charges $35 for a softcover of Mars: Savage Worlds at 180 pages, so sure.

Those costs per unit are pretty damned close, percentage-wise.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;430875Try to put your e-book up on eBay.

I've never sold a dead tree book on eBay either.

QuoteTry to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.

Where they typically get stolen within a month.

QuoteTry to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.

Again, theft discourages me from donating.

QuoteTry to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

My son or daughter have full access to my library, no matter if it's dead tree or digital.

Look, my point isn't "PDF's should cost as much as dead tree, right now."

My point is, if PDF's become as useful and ubiqutous as dead tree is now, I have no problem paying as much for a PDF then as much as I do for dead tree right now.

I doubt that digital will ever be completely anagolous to dead tree, the same as an orange will never taste like an apple, but I can still eat either one. At some point, PDF will be as easy and useful to me, as a dead tree book. And at that point, I see little reason why I wouldn't pay as much to get that information, especially as publishers may stop needing to pay for books, but need to pay programmers instead.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;430875Try to put your e-book up on eBay.
Try to donate your used PDFs to Oxfam, or your local library.
Try to donate your RPG files to the local game club library.
Try to pass your gaming collection on to the next generation.

This is why I either a) make as certain as I can of an e-purchase before I make it, or b) wait for impulse pricing. Having bought a Nook late last year, I look at this with every book I buy, just as I do with PDFs. Some authors/companies have a higher default purchase point than others, for instance.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430836Because with music, they don't want to pay more than .99 cents a song, and many people won't pay even that.

That's often more than I'm willing to pay. I bought a copy of the Time-Life Treasury of Christmas: Christmas Spirit 2 CD Set from Amazon for a bit less than $15.00 a few weeks ago. There were 24 songs. At 99 cents a song that would have cost me almost $24.00. Not nearly as good a deal as the CDs.

I can't really think of a PDF product where I'd pay more than ten bucks for. Anything beyond that is generally enough to scare me off.

I can't speak for gamers in general, but I am, indeed, a cheap bastard.
I had to pay for a year of my undergrad and it took me a year afterward to pay it off. During that year I stopped buying everything. After the year was up I had money again, only somehow I'd lost the ability to spend it. I look at games and books and such, but virtually everything, no matter how appealing goes back on the shelf. The sickness has spread to used books now too. I just spent the last of my amazon xmass money, and I doubt I will be able to bring myself to buy anything until I get more gift $. Every time i reach for my wallet it's like that scene in the Wizard of Oz when the wicked witch tries to take the ruby slippers from Dorothy.  
It's a fucking sickness.