If post-scarcity economics worked, media companies wouldn't be moving towards a service/subscription-model.  When information is easily copied and distributed, the information itself isn't valuable, but the means to attain it and the source are.  If you have an easier or better solution to post-scarcity economics, I'm sure there are tons of economics experts who would love to hear it -- the music companies sure could use some good ideas.

In otherwords, clash, you're what is valuable, not the PDF.  How you market your value and skill and make money in a post-scarcity environment is another thing altogether.  You can rely on people being honest and willing to send cashflow your way, but most evidence points to that not being very practical, because people, while they tend to act rationally when it comes to economics, are pretty shortsighted and don't see the long-term effects of choosing not to pay.

No matter what, though, without a limited supply, you can't calculate a real market value for something.  The most you can do is guess, and it's always going to be subjective.

Quote from: jgants;430126It'll be interesting to see if attitudes change with ebooks gaining popularity (some estimates place ebooks as being 80%+ of the market by 2015).  Currently, ebooks appear to be priced more or less like physical books from my cursory glance (at least, for stuff like technical manuals).

Yes, for technical manuals.

For novels and the like, it is incredibly easy to find really great deals on ebooks that are generally only matched by bargain bin diving at used bookstores...(and I only have to carry my Nook around, not a satchel full of books).

And a growing number of smaller name authors are making far more money going the self-published ebook route than selling through a publisher (for the ones that actually got picked up by a publisher).

Quote from: brettmb;430162Kind of a loaded question, because it all depends on the content.

Absolutely...this is why the only HARD limit I set for any purchase is "what can I actually afford?"...from there, I judge items on their own perceived merits, including - but not limited to - their format.

Although I will absolutely bargain hunt in every single case, in order to stretch my dollar as far as it can go...=)

Quote from: RPGPundit;430160This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

RPGPundit

It's an interesting question. Maybe we need a new poll to compare results?

Quote from: RPGPundit;430160This raises an interesting question, of what is the "ideal" price for an RPG pdf.  That is, if this poll had asked if you'd pay more than $15 dollars for a PDR, or if it had asked if you'd pay more than $5 for a PDF, would the results be notably different than the above?

I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out. This is compounded by the fact now we have ebook readers that just only now been having an impact.

The best one can do is set initial price, try to build an audience and go from there. What may work for me, may not work for you. I doubt I could sell many $35 products, but I am sure I can sell a lot of a $10 product. FlyingMice will have a different baseline, as well as the Pundit, and so on.

At first there will be issues because nobody is going to buy $1,000 worth of art for a product that only profits a $1,000.  But over time the market will sort things out and somebody, somewhere is going to figure out how to deliver quality products at whatever price people will pay for PDFs/ebooks.  

The most likely result, i am guessing this, is that because the internet makes communications so easy is that there will be an extremely stratified and diverse marketplace for all the traditional publishing roles.

In the past, with printed books as the way to get published then only those artists, writers, and editors good enough for the investment would be involved in the published work.  Others would work in related fields (say advertising) until they got the attention of a publisher who felt they were good enough.

Now with the advance of technology now you can get work from the get go. But as a person with no reputation you will paid peanuts. But if you are good enough then as you build your reputation you will get more work and eventually be able to make a living or a at the least increase your income substantially.

And some will just stop at a certain level having neither the time or the talent to continue. The result will a group of people producing content at various price points including free and at each price points there will be trade offs.

It means a lot of work for everybody involved. You can't be a passive talent just being handed jobs to do and paid for it. You have to actively go out and be known, you have to do the research to get the quality you want at the price you can afford for the demand you think you will get for your product.

The difference between the past and today is that now if you do put the work into it, you can get some money for it. There isn't this big fence you have to hurdle in order to sell your stuff.

For me, the question forgets to ask an important questions: why would you only spend $10 on a pdf?

If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book (though, I would like unlimited reproductions, so I can put it on ANY AND ALL computers I own, AND WILL OWN IN THE FUTURE; screw you, 5 copy max).

The problem isn't "I prefer dead tree to pdf", but that pdf hasn't become as user friendly and ubiquitous as dead tree.

Which may change, in the next year or two. A lot of companies are supposedly gearing up to release their own Tablet PC's, which may mean we'll see a Buyer's market.

Quote from: Novastar;430350If I had an iPad or e-reader that easily substituted for dead tree, to be honest, at a certain point I'd be perfectly willing to pay MSRP for the pdf e-book.

How do you calculate the MSRP of an item that has potentially limitless supply?  $50 for a digital document is absolutely ludicrous, IMO, since in the normal market that includes all factors of production, shipping, etc.

I think the real question is, how do we go about compensating the creator for their time and effort in a practical and enforceable way that doesn't rely on economic principles better suited to physical goods?

Quote from: Peregrin;430364How do you calculate the MSRP of an item that has potentially limitless supply?  $50 for a digital document is absolutely ludicrous, IMO, since in the normal market that includes all factors of production, shipping, etc.

I think the real question is, how do we go about compensating the creator for their time and effort in a practical and enforceable way that doesn't rely on economic principles better suited to physical goods?

I figure the counter to that is that you can print a copy of your pdf at any time (I favor watermarks, for this reason), and the fact you can have multiple copies on different computers, instead of a single physical copy, as the swing for the higher price point.

Quote from: brettmb;430162Kind of a loaded question, because it all depends on the content.

Certainly it does; and I bet that everyone who says "i'd never pay more than $10 for a PDF" would all theoretically have some ideal product, that if no other option existed for them aside from getting the PDF, would pay way more than that.
But the real question is whether there is a general point where "on principle", excepting such questions of a "dream product", there's a "cutoff" where the majority would accept to pay, and past that the majority would balk.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmice;430165Whatever. I have been in this business since 2002. Don't listen to me because I must know nothing. Bitch about how much pdfs cost. Rail against The Man! Assume economies of scale mean dick. I won't bother arguing. Assume that means you are right. I don't care. You all don't want pdfs that cost more than 10 bucks. You all also have all the rpgs you will ever need. Why am I bothering? This is just stupid.

-clash

I don't know if that's the right attitude for a publisher to approach this thread.  I think this thread (or other investigations along these lines) could be IMMENSELY useful to you, and you could in turn be immensely useful to this thread.

If you find out tomorrow that the point at which most people won't pay for a PDF is about $5 lower, or alternately $5 higher, than what you normally charge for a PDF, that would be a valuable piece of business information for you.

In turn, you and the other publishers reading this thread could have a lot to offer it: have you, Clash, in your experience found there to be a "sweet spot" of PDF sales where you are likely to get considerably more sales than if you put the same PDF even a couple of bucks higher? Have you ever lowered the price of a PDF and suddenly experienced a jump in sales as a result? Or alternately, has this never happened, and is it your position that in fact there is no definable "sweet spot" of a price point for PDF sales?

RPGPundit

Quote from: estar;430239I think part of the problem is that PDFs are a disruptive technology where the consequences haven't played out. This is compounded by the fact now we have ebook readers that just only now been having an impact.

That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;430380That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

As I said earlier, they would be for me. Since apparently a Nook will read .pdf files, I may well start buying more of them once/if I get one, since I'll have them all at my fingertips without the storage problems of physical books.

Quote from: Werekoala;430389As I said earlier, they would be for me. Since apparently a Nook will read .pdf files, I may well start buying more of them once/if I get one, since I'll have them all at my fingertips without the storage problems of physical books.

I've loaded Wu Xing on my Nook, and it does alright...but Wu Xing is not a graphically intensive book.

That said, a lot of "printer friendly" PDFs should work fine on it.

The Nook Color, on the other hand, should have even fewer limitations in that regard.

Quote from: Novastar;430350(though, I would like unlimited reproductions, so I can put it on ANY AND ALL computers I own, AND WILL OWN IN THE FUTURE; screw you, 5 copy max).

Oh hell yes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;430380That's another really interesting question: Are e-book readers a "game changer" for PDFs? Have any publishers noticed an increase in PDF sales since the advent of these, or a slow increase in sales as ebook readers become more accessible and popular?

Yes but.....

Yes is that ebook readers will make PDFs more acceptable by making reading them little different than a regular book.

the but is because it is now a digital file and subject to the same pricing pressures as all digital media like video and music files.

And ebook readers are just now at the beginning of the technology curve and who knows how it will all play out.

For example the entirety of Project Gutenberg can easily be downloaded and read just as easily as ordinary books. I read several classics on my kindle that I hadn't had access too before.


As for the specific question of "has it had an impact on sales?" Is say it is that is too soon too tell. I had one customer tell me that Majestic Wilderlands look OK on his Kindle DX.

Ebook readers haven't spread enough or advanced enough to make an impact in niche markets like RPGs. But they will sooner then we think and they will make PDFs and other digital formats acceptable for books just like they did for music.

I will say that since the last time I talked about my kindle (which you get for $139 now) I played with PDFs on the iPad. And it is pretty darn good. The ability to use the touch screen to scroll around and manipulate the book and image is unbelievable.