The Greyhawk Grognard and Bat in the Attic (estar) just talked about it on their blogs: http://batintheattic.blogspot.ca/2012/10/new-reprints.html
So we'll see reprints of the three core books of AD&D2, and compilations of the Slaver series (A1-4) and "Dungeons of Dread" series (S1-4) as both hardcover books.
Talk about it on this thread.
This is pretty cool. I do want to get the core books. Would love to see them re-release some of the stuff like birthright, darksun, masque of the red death and other things that feel harder to track down these days.
If they are doing the S series I sure hope it is the original S series. I remember a Second Edition reprint of Tomb of Horrors that redid the fricking poem. Why? Who the hell knows, but it was idiotic.
Also, now we know the strategy, keep D&D bringing money in until 5 is ready to go. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot more stuff gets reissued.
Awesome.
Quote from: Benoist;590039The Greyhawk Grognard and Bat in the Attic (estar) just talked about it on their blogs: http://batintheattic.blogspot.ca/2012/10/new-reprints.html
So we'll see reprints of the three core books of AD&D2, and compilations of the Slaver series (A1-4) and "Dungeons of Dread" series (S1-4) as both hardcover books.
Talk about it on this thread.
I will be rocking the core books. Not sure about the modules, though, I would rather have them in something like the original format than hardcover.
It's pretty cool, but I don't think I'll be buying any of it since I still have all the originals in good condition.
I still have my "D&D Core Rules 2.0" CD, so I'm good for the core books.
I would love to see reprints of several of the box sets, though. And I'd like to get several of the adventure series (missing one, ONE!, of the damn Dragonlance series).
EDIT: Curious, have they announced any plans for PDF product, in the re-issues (1st, 2md and 3rd)?
Interestingly, the Monstrous Compendium looks like it's going to be reprinted as a hardcover, instead of the binder and sheets the originals were.
Also, all three core books have the same price tag ($49.95 US each). I'd expect these to vary at the end of the day.
If nothing else it knocks the theory that they're only doing RPs of Gygax stuff, and only to benefit the Gygax Memorial.
Quote from: Benoist;590067Interestingly, the Monstrous Compendium looks like it's going to be reprinted as a hardcover, instead of the binder and sheets the originals were.
I have no memory of that. When I think of the 2E MM I think of this:
(http://diterlizzi.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/addmm.jpg)
So that will probably what they reprint.
As for the $45 pricetag, well I'm glad I got the trio of them recently for far less than that, combined.
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/284/922/0e3.png)
Well, I hope this brings WotC enough revenue to convince them to reprint other pre-3E materials, and I hope these materials will reach more people than just the completionist collector grognards.
Quote from: Novastar;590065I still have my "D&D Core Rules 2.0" CD, so I'm good for the core books.
So do I. As well as the 2.1 fix CD ROM as well (included Player's Option stuff)
Quote from: Kaz;590081I have no memory of that. When I think of the 2E MM I think of this:
As do most people. I remember the binder too. Decent idea, bad implementation. I think I lost all of my binder monsters, but I still have the above manual you posted.
Nice. The adventure compliations are tempting purely based on being sturdier. I am surprised that we didn't see a GDQ book, though that and T1-4may well be next :)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;590092So do I. As well as the 2.1 fix CD ROM as well (included Player's Option stuff)
Hmmm, maybe I have that as well, since my CD also has the Player's Option stuff.
EDIT: Wow, $50 each? Ouch.
Cooooooooool.
1989 is going to have an orgasm. Cheers to orgasms! :D
Quote from: Imperator;590127Cooooooooool.
1989 is going to have an orgasm. Cheers to orgasms! :D
Fuck yes!! :D
JUST to see the first post that comes out of 1989's fingers when he sees this thread, this news is totally worth it! I'm giddy just contemplating the possibilities. *grins*
Quote from: Novastar;590125Hmmm, maybe I have that as well, since my CD also has the Player's Option stuff.
EDIT: Wow, $50 each? Ouch.
My bad. There was the Core Rules CD ROM, then the 2.0 version. No 2.1 version. I have both. So if you have 2.0, you'd have the PO version.
Holy crap though, $85 on ebay for the thing.
I'll certainly set aside dough for the module compilations.
As much as I loved (and love) 2e, I'm not certain I need prestige versions, but we'll see. If I'm flush with cash next summer, I may change my tune.
I'm in the market for a new copy of AD&D 2nd Edition, having foolishly parted with mine back when I thought 3e was an unreserved improvement (I have the Core Rules CD but I like books) - but at those prices I may just hit eBay instead. Good to see them doing this though.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;590134My bad. There was the Core Rules CD ROM, then the 2.0 version. No 2.1 version. I have both. So if you have 2.0, you'd have the PO version.
Holy crap though, $85 on ebay for the thing.
Holy crap indeed.
Most of those are for the Expansion, not the Core Rules themselves, which are equally as expensive. :eek:
I just re-installed this on my old computer yesterday, to go down nostalgia lane.
Damn, but I love me some 2nd Edition! The tone of the game is so different from "EVERYTHING IS BALANCED! But not." 3rd Edition.
I also have to laugh at the "This is NOT 3rd Edition!" in the foreword, written in '95. :rotfl:
Think I'm going to be spending some time over the next week, playing with the Campaign Mapper. Never really got into it, when I first bought it. Maybe time to play around with it.
EDIT: Ooh! I gotta see if the HTML version will work on my Android Tablet!
I have a half dozen 2nd ed PHB only one is stil in decent condition and its one that I rarely used (Black cover), my DMG's are in worse condition, my MM's are in reasonable shape so I'd probably go in for the DMG & PHB. I love 2nd ed. It works even when better combined with 1st ed's best parts.
Quote from: Novastar;590147EDIT: Ooh! I gotta see if the HTML version will work on my Android Tablet!
I had a bear of a time getting it to work on windows 7. Win 7 doesn't support the help file format that all the stuff is in, and if you go to microsoft to download the needed file, after downloading and trying to install it, it says, "This is an old version. Please download the most up to date version."
WTH? That's the only version you have available!
You know if nothing else, the people who like 2e are in for a treat as 1e books printed in '78 were well made. I've never seen a 2e book that wasn't crumbling apart. Since WotC will (probably) not make the same mistakes that TSR did, y'all should (finally) have some books that will last.
...
THERE, YOU PRICKS, I SAID SOMETHING NICE ABOUT 2E[/FONT]
I'd like my own hardcover copy of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. But if the S1-S4 repint is just a renamed reprint of the old Realms of Horror supermodule, then I'll pass.
Well, my old machine still has WinXP on it, and when I open the .rtf files, it auto-converts it into Word files. So I know those will work on any of my machines.
The HTML files, I really have no idea, till I try it.
As for the root program, you'll likely have to set Win7 into compatibility mode, and have it run as if it was WinXP for the program.
Which only works as a solution for me, about half the time. :idunno:
Quote from: Gabriel2;590158I'd like my own hardcover copy of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. But if the S1-S4 repint is just a renamed reprint of the old Realms of Horror supermodule, then I'll pass.
Yeah; I've been meaning to do a close up examination of Lost Tsojconth (I have a...copy), S4 and the S4 from Realms of Horror for educational purposes.
I'm definitely buying the 2e reprints! Not going to bother with the modules, though.
The thing about the 2e core books is that they are stitched which makes them very easy to repair. Even though I am what kellri calls "a terrible two" I am not sold on the new books. The myth & magic books are mo better that the 2e phb and dmg, the monster manual is the only book that piques my interest, but $50 is a bit too expensives. $40 perhaps.
It would be cool if they revised the art in the mm though, most of the imagoes have at least one altrrnwntive in the mcs, whichever pic is stronger should be used. Some of the exisitng ones are rather unfortunate.
Hell they have diigtal files of the 2e books. The laborious will be very low.
Quote from: Benoist;590039The Greyhawk Grognard and Bat in the Attic (estar) just talked about it on their blogs: http://batintheattic.blogspot.ca/2012/10/new-reprints.html
So we'll see reprints of the three core books of AD&D2,
Talk about it on this thread.
ahhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry. I'll clean that up.
Edit: What's funny is that I had this cyber orgasm before seeing the prior posts predicting it.
Great news! Some people in my group might be thrilled, most of our copies of 2e are falling apart.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590157THERE, YOU PRICKS, I SAID SOMETHING NICE ABOUT 2E[/FONT]
:rotfl:
Quote from: 1989;590192ahhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry. I'll clean that up.
Edit: What's funny is that I had this cyber orgasm before seeing the prior posts predicting it.
It was all worth it. I'm happy to see you happy dude. But you really got to clean that up. :D
I'm going to need more money if they keep this up. :)
Quote from: Benoist;590067Interestingly, the Monstrous Compendium looks like it's going to be reprinted as a hardcover, instead of the binder and sheets the originals were.
The form factor of the compendium was to allow you to put new monsters released in various settings and supplements into the binder to have one resource. If they're not releasing any brand new material for 2e, then a completed compendium can reasonably be a hardcover book.
While I'm not in the market for any 2e books (mine are "shelf queens" and thus in excellent shape), I'll definitely be taking a close look at the 1e module books. If they're the original (complete) modules rather than the previous "supermodule" compilations then I'll be interested. Many of my original modules are in rough shape.
Great news! Thanks for posting it Benoist.
I actually have near-mint copies of the original 2E books, as I mostly use the black cover versions as table books, but I'd still pick these up. Good behaviour should be rewarded. It also allows me to place all my original books into storage in hermetically sealed cubes of transparent aluminum.
Let's hope the reprints keep coming! I, for one, would like copies of several other 1E books (MMII and FF), along with the RC.
Oh yes, those module books will be mine!
I'm really wondering now if this isn't just some sly market research to see which prior version sells the best and then use that information to finalize design for D&D Next.
Yeah, I know, conspiracy theory territory.
Quote from: jeff37923;590353I'm really wondering now if this isn't just some sly market research to see which prior version sells the best and then use that information to finalize design for D&D Next.
Yeah, I know, conspiracy theory territory.
Actually, that's not totally crazy. Not only that, but "market research" and "interim cash-flow" (or whatever other reasons for the current rush of reprints) are not mutually exclusive.
Quote from: 1989;590192ahhhhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry. I'll clean that up.
Edit: What's funny is that I had this cyber orgasm before seeing the prior posts predicting it.
When you say that, I look at your avatar, and then I say that...
Gonna have to find out if it's the originals or the Supermodule. If it's the Supermodule, screw it, not worth it. Not sure who thought they could rewrite the originals and make them better, but...they failed.
Quote from: CRKrueger;590358Gonna have to find out if it's the originals or the Supermodule. If it's the Supermodule, screw it, not worth it. Not sure who thought they could rewrite the originals and make them better, but...they failed.
What, exactly, is wrong with the supermodule? It's the only version I own...
Quote from: Bobloblah;590367What, exactly, is wrong with the supermodule? It's the only version I own...
The Scourge of the Slavelords supermodule is just fine.
The Realms of Horror supermodule performs heavy cuts to its component parts making Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth little more than maps with incomplete keys.
Man! I already have copies of these, but I'm tempted to purchase just for "positive market reinforcement".
Quote from: The Were-Grognard;590379Man! I already have copies of these, but I'm tempted to purchase just for "positive market reinforcement".
Reward good behavior.
Okay, wait, is it verified that the S and A Series will be 1st Edition modules in hardcover?
I think that Moldvay reprints can't be far off now....
Quote from: flyerfan1991;590407Okay, wait, is it verified that the S and A Series will be 1st Edition modules in hardcover?
They are listed on Amazon.
Quote from: Skywalker;590409They are listed on Amazon.
Doesn't say what version though.
Quote from: CRKrueger;590411Doesn't say what version though.
You beat me to it.
The only way they could screw this up would be to reprint the black-cover books rather than the originals.
$50 a book is steep. Here in Edmonton, where the FLGS adds an additional surtax on top of the retail price, it's going to be pretty wallet-draining. I expect these to come in at $55 a book, at least.
Quote from: 1989;590567The only way they could screw this up would be to reprint the black-cover books rather than the originals.
Yeah, the black cover versions may have been a lot more durable, but man were they ugly!
Quote from: 1989;590567The only way they could screw this up would be to reprint the black-cover books rather than the originals.
$50 a book is steep. Here in Edmonton, where the FLGS adds an additional surtax on top of the retail price, it's going to be pretty wallet-draining. I expect these to come in at $55 a book, at least.
You'll buy them anyway :D
Quote from: 1989;590567The only way they could screw this up would be to reprint the black-cover books rather than the originals.
$50 a book is steep. Here in Edmonton, where the FLGS adds an additional surtax on top of the retail price, it's going to be pretty wallet-draining. I expect these to come in at $55 a book, at least.
They are going for something like $45 down here, which would have been $25 back in '89 when the original 2nd Edition was published. I don't have my copies to hand at the moment, but that doesn't sound too off from what they cost. I have no idea what the exchange rate for Canadia quatloos was back in 1989, but somewhere around $2.50 sounds close. So, between $27CDN and $30CDN back in the day?
I knew about this around the time the AD&D 1e reprints were about to be released; and I had to keep my mouth shut. It wouldn't have been hard to do except that I have one player in my gaming group that for whatever reason absolutely LOVES 2e and kept talking about how he would wish they would release 2e reprints. It was hard not to tell him, he's going to be very happy about this.
RPGPundit
So will the Rules Cyclopedia announcement come after the 2e reprints are released? :)
$50 is rather stiff, perhaps if the binding is superawesome I will spring for the MM. Can anyone talk about the binding of the 1e reprint books? Is it stitched and superawesome like textbooks, or ok like the 3e books?
Quote from: Teazia;590707$50 is rather stiff, perhaps if the binding is superawesome I will spring for the MM. Can anyone talk about the binding of the 1e reprint books? Is it stitched and superawesome like textbooks, or ok like the 3e books?
I think it's somewhere in between. It is stitched, as I mentioned in my review of the reissues. However, I think it's done differently than the original binding.
Quote from: CRKrueger;590411Doesn't say what version though.
Sorry, I thought you were asking if the release was verified, not on which version it was based.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590711I think it's somewhere in between. It is stitched, as I mentioned in my review of the reissues. However, I think it's done differently than the original binding.
I quite like the bit you wrote about calling TLG to inquiring about Gary's favorite charity. Very well done, its is nice to see some goodwill in the sometimes acrid old school realm (I can be guilty of it at times as well).
Quote from: Endless Flight;590698So will the Rules Cyclopedia announcement come after the 2e reprints are released? :)
Hopefully.
Quote from: Teazia;590725I quite like the bit you wrote about calling TLG to inquiring about Gary's favorite charity. Very well done, its is nice to see some goodwill in the sometimes acrid old school realm (I can be guilty of it at times as well).
Well, thank you. I'm not part of the OSR; I'm just "OS" if you will, but regardless I think it's important to give to charity when one can.
Ill be getting the A and S books regardless of version. Nice to have them in hardcover for longer life, and want to reward WOTC for trying.
Definitely WotC is on the right track to create lots of good will among former customers. I think this is a great move. They can afford to be picky choosing which stuff they reprint, and there is a lot of interest, so it's an almost sure sale.
Good times :)
Quote from: Imperator;590802Definitely WotC is on the right track to create lots of good will among former customers. I think this is a great move. They can afford to be picky choosing which stuff they reprint, and there is a lot of interest, so it's an almost sure sale.
Good times :)
Amazing the Win-Win situations you can find when you're not trying to be a mindlessly cock-knocking Brand-Nazi.
So the Pun is no longer just a Next consultant but a general D&D consultant. Very interesting. Would that make the site an more than unofficial wotc research site? Also, how much influence does his weight carry in Seattle?
WotC has been sitting on a goldmine for over a decade. They're finally cashing in.
I wonder what will be next? Original D&D? More AD&D? Basic? Hmm...
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590930WotC has been sitting on a goldmine for over a decade. They're finally cashing in.
I wonder what will be next? Original D&D? More AD&D? Basic? Hmm...
My vote would be a boxed (or at least a hardback version) of OD&D and supplements.
Quote from: Lilaxe;590956My vote would be a boxed (or at least a hardback version) of OD&D and supplements.
An affordable facsimile reprint of OD&D?
Hell, yes!
Quote from: CRKrueger;590837Amazing the Win-Win situations you can find when you're not trying to be a mindlessly cock-knocking Brand-Nazi.
Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's almost like thinking in terms of business could bring you actual business :D
Quote from: thedungeondelver;590930WotC has been sitting on a goldmine for over a decade. They're finally cashing in.
I wonder what will be next? Original D&D? More AD&D? Basic? Hmm...
That would be a smart move. I've been saying this for a long time. You have a mountain of products with a lot of value to collectionists and completists, that you can produce at a very low cost for you (as you don't have to pay again authors, illustrators and the works), that can getyou a sizable market at no effort, and that can create massive amounts of good will all across the gaming community. Fuck, if you don't want to risk unsold stock you just go POD or sell PDFs. Everyone will be happy and whatever amount of cash they make off the products is good money BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO WORK HARD TO CREATE IT.
I mean, those products ARE MEANT TO SELL LIKE HOTCAKES even to people that won't play them but would like to have them out of collectionism. For fuck's sake. THERE IS NOTHING TO LOSE.
Quote from: Imperator;590981For fuck's sake. THERE IS NOTHING TO LOSE.
Pride.
That there is a huge demand for product 30+ years old and not so much for the new shiny stuff is a big wake up call to current game designers that perhaps innovation and improvement are not actually synonyms.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;591223Pride.
That there is a huge demand for product 30+ years old and not so much for the new shiny stuff is a big wake up call to current game designers that perhaps innovation and improvement are not actually synonyms.
It's about goddamned time. Maybe the neophiliac amateur game designers on the interwebz will get the memo next.
While I hope WotC gets the message, I do hope lots of people on the intertubes and elsewhere keep experimenting. Things like ICONS and ACKS are both the result of tinkering with what came before, and, to me, are fantastic. While not all change is good, without trying things out and sometimes (read: often) blowing it, you'll never get the good stuff. After all, what was OD&D but some messing around with the perfectly fine Chainmail?
Quote from: Bobloblah;591329While I hope WotC gets the message, I do hope lots of people on the intertubes and elsewhere keep experimenting. Things like ICONS and ACKS are both the result of tinkering with what came before, and, to me, are fantastic. While not all change is good, without trying things out and sometimes (read: often) blowing it, you'll never get the good stuff. After all, what was OD&D but some messing around with the perfectly fine Chainmail?
True, however, there's a difference between that and
"D&D's "problem" for a wildly successful 30-some years has been a lack of coherence."
or
"You know, a strictly defined Narrative Structure is what WFRP needs that was really lacking the last 20 years."
It's not a coincidence that both licenses are now going on the life support of reprints of older editions.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;591223Pride.
That there is a huge demand for product 30+ years old and not so much for the new shiny stuff is a big wake up call to current game designers that perhaps innovation and improvement are not actually synonyms.
Well, maybe I am the kind of mercenary that prefers solid sales :D
Quote from: Bobloblah;591329While I hope WotC gets the message, I do hope lots of people on the intertubes and elsewhere keep experimenting. Things like ICONS and ACKS are both the result of tinkering with what came before, and, to me, are fantastic. While not all change is good, without trying things out and sometimes (read: often) blowing it, you'll never get the good stuff. After all, what was OD&D but some messing around with the perfectly fine Chainmail?
True that. I agree.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;591223That there is a huge demand for product 30+ years old and not so much for the new shiny stuff is a big wake up call to current game designers that perhaps innovation and improvement are not actually synonyms.
It
could also be seen as confirmation that the market IS INDEED made up of mostly older gamers, looking to get their nostalgia on.
I tend to disagree with that observation; I feel the
majority of gamers are still relatively young (teenagers and college kids), but the
minority with a lot of disposable cash, are the grognards (like myself), which includes A LOT of "completionist's".
Quote from: Bobloblah;591329While I hope WotC gets the message, I do hope lots of people on the intertubes and elsewhere keep experimenting. Things like ICONS and ACKS are both the result of tinkering with what came before, and, to me, are fantastic. While not all change is good, without trying things out and sometimes (read: often) blowing it, you'll never get the good stuff. After all, what was OD&D but some messing around with the perfectly fine Chainmail?
Absolutely; development in no way should have stagnated at OD&D, B/X or AD&D. Judging by the Unearthed Arcana, Uncle Gary's 2nd Edition would have been perhaps somewhat
less of a change from 1st than the actual 2nd Edition, but there would have been changes. A similar streamlining and re-organizing, probably more spells, classes, magic items and monsters. Some kind of skill system might have found its way in there, but probably not quite as structured as NWPs. There were certainly changes on the horizon for AD&D, whether Uncle Gary was at the helm or not.
That being said...
Quote from: CRKrueger;591365True, however, there's a difference between that and
"D&D's "problem" for a wildly successful 30-some years has been a lack of coherence."
or
"You know, a strictly defined Narrative Structure is what WFRP needs that was really lacking the last 20 years."
It's not a coincidence that both licenses are now going on the life support of reprints of older editions.
...3.x was a pretty radical departure from 2nd and earlier. Still recognizable, sure, but you had to kind of squint a fair bit. It was a pretty massive overhaul of the whole system: classes and levels don't work the same; skills/feats are now front and centre; combat can hardly be called the same game anymore; magic items are practically a necessity.
Sure, 3.0 went gangbusters for moving product, but within a very few years, the rules needed 'fixing', boards were rife with all manner of complaints and even back then, Paizo was cashing in on the ever growing dissatisfaction with rules churn and bloat (not that Pathfinder is particularly svelte).
Rules can be improved, cleaned up, streamlined, re-organized and so on. It's really a matter of finding out what your players want, though, and not just the ones on your own message boards. Maybe these re-prints will re-kindle some interest in the earlier rules, and Next might just get nudged in that direction, even more than it appears to already be.
Looks to me like they're making a lot of D&D fans very happy with the reprints.
Cracking idea. Good on them.
Not my cup of tea, but maybe it is possible to please all the people and still have a current ongoing edition?
Will you all be more kindly disposed to D&D5 because WOTC have been offering the previous editions as well?
I'd be tempted by a D&D Cyclopaedia just for nostalgia since B/X was the second rpg I owned.
Quote from: tzunder;591575Will you all be more kindly disposed to D&D5 because WOTC have been offering the previous editions as well?
D&D 5E is its own product and will sink or swim on its own merits. If I like it then I will buy it. Even if it isn't for me, then I will still buy the reprints that are of interest.
Perhaps WOTC is learning that not every potential customer will be attracted to the same products and that it is smart to offer variety.
Quote from: StormBringer;591484...3.x was a pretty radical departure from 2nd and earlier. Still recognizable, sure, but you had to kind of squint a fair bit. It was a pretty massive overhaul of the whole system: classes and levels don't work the same; skills/feats are now front and centre; combat can hardly be called the same game anymore; magic items are practically a necessity.
I can more or less agree with most of this, except for the comment about magic items. That simply isn't the case, any more than it was for earlier editions of the game. Their relationship with CRs creates the illusion of their necessity.
Quote from: StormBringer;591484Sure, 3.0 went gangbusters for moving product, but within a very few years, the rules needed 'fixing', boards were rife with all manner of complaints and even back then, Paizo was cashing in on the ever growing dissatisfaction with rules churn and bloat (not that Pathfinder is particularly svelte).
The rules didn't
need fixing - Hasborg needed a cash injection from new, incompatible core books. The game could've continued on with no more than minor tweaks and errata between printings. Moreover, many of the changes between 3.0 and 3.5 have the appearance of being little more than a sort of planned obsolesence for existing products, as they don't actually fix anything. I can certainly agree that there was a problem with product churn, specifically products containing new rules (i.e. feats, races, and PrCs, oh my!), but that's wrapped up in a larger conversation around how WotC can move enough product to make Hasborg happy (short answer: they probably can't).
Quote from: StormBringer;591484Rules can be improved, cleaned up, streamlined, re-organized and so on. It's really a matter of finding out what your players want, though, and not just the ones on your own message boards. Maybe these re-prints will re-kindle some interest in the earlier rules, and Next might just get nudged in that direction, even more than it appears to already be.
Maybe. But I don't think cleaning and streamlining are the only viable avenues for moving forward. Don't get me arong, I'm not under the delusion that all change is progress. Moreover, I believe there's value in the idea of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" but that shouldn't preclude trying new things.
Frankly, I think one of 4E's biggest problems was that, instead of trying something new (i.e. not calling it D&D), they tried fixing things that weren't broken (large portions of D&D3.x). The irony is that the same can no doubt be argued about earlier editions and 3.x
Quote from: tzunder;591575Looks to me like they're making a lot of D&D fans very happy with the reprints.
The reprints are the only products WotC has produced in years that are relevant to my gaming. So, yeah.
QuoteNot my cup of tea, but maybe it is possible to please all the people and still have a current ongoing edition?
Sure; I see no reason they couldn't. Different product lines that appeal to different market segments makes perfect sense to me.
QuoteWill you all be more kindly disposed to D&D5 because WOTC have been offering the previous editions as well?
I wouldn't say that my disposition to D&D5 is either kind or unkind; I look at D&D5 just like any other new game that is released. I guess I don't see that the reprints have anything to do with what I think about D&D5.
I suppose you could say I'm more positive about WotC, in general, though. They're offering some D&D products that I'd buy, so they're relevant to me in a way they weren't, previously. That's a good thing.
Quote from: Bobloblah;591606Maybe. But I don't think cleaning and streamlining are the only viable avenues for moving forward. Don't get me arong, I'm not under the delusion that all change is progress. Moreover, I believe there's value in the idea of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" but that shouldn't preclude trying new things.
The problem, pre-OGL, is that the only way forward was whatever D&D owner thought was the way forward. It didn't better how talented the designer are at some point they were bound to fail because they are only human.
With the OGL we have a multiplicity of different approaches. And thanks to the d20 SRD readily adaptable to produce retro-clone of older editions the number of D&D variants that people can play with has grown by an order of magnitudes.
The result is that D&D's fate and development is no longer tied to the fortunes of a single company. It may be the next Pathfinder may be something that looks a lot like Moldavy/Cook D&D, or may just be a D&D 3.5 reskinned with new mix of classes, spells, and monsters. Or it may become an evergreen game like monopoly, chess or checkers.
My bet is that we will see a handful of evergreen games come out. One based on an older edition basic D&D as a fast and easy intro. And another an "Advanced D&D" with more options.
If there is favorable development with print on demand then it may be that we will see the entire back catalog available for purchase in print as well as PDF. In which case the foremention "evergreen" editions will be used for NEW products only.
Quote from: estar;591615The problem, pre-OGL, is that the only way forward was whatever D&D owner thought was the way forward. It didn't better how talented the designer are at some point they were bound to fail because they are only human.
This is true, but the difference was that all TSR editions had basically compatible source material. The Monster Manual for AD&D could be (and was) used by people playing multiple versions of TSR (A)D&D.
Quote from: estar;591615With the OGL we have a multiplicity of different approaches. And thanks to the d20 SRD readily adaptable to produce retro-clone of older editions the number of D&D variants that people can play with has grown by an order of magnitudes.
Very true, and certainly nothing to this extent would've been possible before the OGL. It's the biggest gift RPG'ers will likely ever get.
Quote from: estar;591615The result is that D&D's fate and development is no longer tied to the fortunes of a single company. It may be the next Pathfinder may be something that looks a lot like Moldavy/Cook D&D, or may just be a D&D 3.5 reskinned with new mix of classes, spells, and monsters. Or it may become an evergreen game like monopoly, chess or checkers.
My bet is that we will see a handful of evergreen games come out. One based on an older edition basic D&D as a fast and easy intro. And another an "Advanced D&D" with more options.
At this point I think having a couple distinct product lines would be WotC's best bet, too.
Quote from: estar;591615If there is favorable development with print on demand then it may be that we will see the entire back catalog available for purchase in print as well as PDF. In which case the foremention "evergreen" editions will be used for NEW products only.
Hope springs eternal in the human breast.
Quote from: Bobloblah;591606I can more or less agree with most of this, except for the comment about magic items. That simply isn't the case, any more than it was for earlier editions of the game. Their relationship with CRs creates the illusion of their necessity.
That's fine, I will so stipulate: Using the CR system as intended necessitated dependance on magic items. The CR system itself is a pretty major departure; that was left up to the DM to decide previously.
QuoteThe rules didn't need fixing - Hasborg needed a cash injection from new, incompatible core books. The game could've continued on with no more than minor tweaks and errata between printings. Moreover, many of the changes between 3.0 and 3.5 have the appearance of being little more than a sort of planned obsolesence for existing products, as they don't actually fix anything. I can certainly agree that there was a problem with product churn, specifically products containing new rules (i.e. feats, races, and PrCs, oh my!), but that's wrapped up in a larger conversation around how WotC can move enough product to make Hasborg happy (short answer: they probably can't).
Ok, that works too. I guess it would be more accurate to say that WotC
proposed the changes as 'fixes', leading to the perception that rules could be more or less objectively 'broken', instead of simply not applicable or not appropriate for all tables. The reported problems with summoners or wildshaping Druids, for instance, wouldn't even cause a ripple at tables where those things are using sparingly for the big fights rather than spamming them several times per combat even when dealing with kobolds.
QuoteMaybe. But I don't think cleaning and streamlining are the only viable avenues for moving forward. Don't get me arong, I'm not under the delusion that all change is progress. Moreover, I believe there's value in the idea of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" but that shouldn't preclude trying new things.
No, there are more 'improvements' that can be made besides re-organizing, but that is usually the one that helps the most, because the tenets of technical writing don't seem to have a high level of saturation in the RPG world. ;)
Especially, as you say, when the rules are pretty stable to begin with. The THAC0 charts in 2e weren't really an overhaul so much as a condensing of information that probably didn't need to be in tabular form across two or three pages. Why it was universally reviled still puzzles me. The results are really the same, and the six 20s in the 1st Edition charts didn't serve a purpose that wasn't there from just continuing the series. Everything above the first 20 (optionally) needed to be a nat20 to hit, so whether there were five 20s or 21+ didn't really matter; you can still say it has to be a nat20 (plus bonuses).
Of course, they could have switched from d20 to 2d10, giving a bell curve instead of a linear curve. That would have made 'crits' and 'fumbles' more rare, which is adds to the excitement of getting one, and it would have made hits somewhat more reliable, based on the level & AC. So even a first level Fighter attacking an AC 10 opponent would hit pretty reliably. At 10th level, hitting AC0 would have been as reliable, and AC10 is all but guaranteed. Which is what Fighters are supposed to do, right? I think a Magic User at 10th level had something like a 15 THAC0, so they would still be whiffing it quite a bit. You can still have 'fumbles' on a 2, which would come up 1% of the time instead of 5%, and the same with crits.
QuoteFrankly, I think one of 4E's biggest problems was that, instead of trying something new (i.e. not calling it D&D), they tried fixing things that weren't broken (large portions of D&D3.x). The irony is that the same can no doubt be argued about earlier editions and 3.x
I'm sure it could, but there was pretty much zero chance they would have released 4e as something other than D&D. I understand what you are saying, but it wasn't gonna happen. The days of producing
anything that isn't D&D went out with TSR. I don't see WotC putting out Star Frontiers or Boot Hill, absolutely not versions that aren't d20. And who knows? Maybe that is part of the 'problem', too.
Quote from: estar;591615The problem, pre-OGL, is that the only way forward was whatever D&D owner thought was the way forward. It didn't better how talented the designer are at some point they were bound to fail because they are only human.
With the OGL we have a multiplicity of different approaches. And thanks to the d20 SRD readily adaptable to produce retro-clone of older editions the number of D&D variants that people can play with has grown by an order of magnitudes.
The result is that D&D's fate and development is no longer tied to the fortunes of a single company. It may be the next Pathfinder may be something that looks a lot like Moldavy/Cook D&D, or may just be a D&D 3.5 reskinned with new mix of classes, spells, and monsters. Or it may become an evergreen game like monopoly, chess or checkers.
My bet is that we will see a handful of evergreen games come out. One based on an older edition basic D&D as a fast and easy intro. And another an "Advanced D&D" with more options.
If there is favorable development with print on demand then it may be that we will see the entire back catalog available for purchase in print as well as PDF. In which case the foremention "evergreen" editions will be used for NEW products only.
An interesting analysis; I find it probably too optimistic, but hey, I hope you're right.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;591952An interesting analysis; I find it probably too optimistic, but hey, I hope you're right.
RPGPundit
Well, you are privy to insider Wotc info, too bad you can't share...