Quote from: 3catcircus on January 06, 2023, 05:58:28 PM
There are 162 products for 5e published by WotC on DMs Guild. T

here are over 32000 products for 5e published by the DMs Guild Community. Let's assume 10% of them are actually driving players and DMs to continue to buy and play.

That is **95%** of the 5e content being 3PP.

No one understands the compound interest effect of all these small 3PP until they stop providing content - but it needs to be en masse and spearheaded by at least one of the larger 3PP.

MATH IS ABLEIST AND RACIST AND SHIT, YOU FUCKING BIGGOT!!!

Quote from: Mithgarthr on January 06, 2023, 06:10:11 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on January 06, 2023, 05:58:28 PM
There are 162 products for 5e published by WotC on DMs Guild. T

here are over 32000 products for 5e published by the DMs Guild Community. Let's assume 10% of them are actually driving players and DMs to continue to buy and play.

That is **95%** of the 5e content being 3PP.

No one understands the compound interest effect of all these small 3PP until they stop providing content - but it needs to be en masse and spearheaded by at least one of the larger 3PP.

MATH IS ABLEIST AND RACIST AND SHIT, YOU FUCKING BIGGOT!!!

Inorite.  Isn't it great being able to use numbers to your advantage (or to prevent bridges from collapsing or planes falling out of the sky)...

Quote from: Effete on January 06, 2023, 05:46:45 PM
That's only if things go to litigation. *If* a judge rules that 1.0a can be revoked, an appeal to get it overturned would cost about $4-600 bucks and you wouldn't even need to show up to court.

Oh my sweet summer child, this isn't the idealized world of Andy Griffin. This is Lawfare.

Try a minimum of a HUNDRED (more likely a THOUSAND) times that if you want your initial complaint to even reach a judge by the time Hasbro's salaried lawyers are done burying you in pre-trial motions.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 05, 2023, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 05, 2023, 06:37:49 PM
If a small group of woke folk on twitter can get companies to make bad decisions imagine what will happen when the entire OSR (players included) get pissed at Hasbro for destroying their niche games. How hard would it be to position this as Hasbro the bully? I bet cable news would even cover the dust-up. Hasbro wouldn't want any part of that when they have a lifestyle brand to launch. They'll ignore the the original OGL and bet it all that enough will following into 3.1 virtual land.

All people have to do is consistently portray Hasbro as being anti-labor, anti-artist, anti-writer and anti-worker.  Just keep launching it on them.  Go to Reddit and pose as a leftist and start stirring up the idiots there against Hasbro.  Just start riling up the public and give them a good cash rich target taking anti-consumer action and just watch them burn it down.  The left is a circular firing squad and its easy to use them.

This is unbearably naive. You're making the false assumption that SJWs actually in any way believe what they say. When history has shown them to be hypocrites and liars. They are pro corporation every single time it matters. Because at the end of the day they want to be in control. They won't be. That's their fallacy. But they cheer for anything that reduces the rights of the individual

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 06:32:27 PM

Quote from: Effete on January 06, 2023, 05:46:45 PM
That's only if things go to litigation. *If* a judge rules that 1.0a can be revoked, an appeal to get it overturned would cost about $4-600 bucks and you wouldn't even need to show up to court.

Oh my sweet summer child, this isn't the idealized world of Andy Griffin. This is Lawfare.

Try a minimum of a HUNDRED (more likely a THOUSAND) times that if you want your initial complaint to even reach a judge by the time Hasbro's salaried lawyers are done burying you in pre-trial motions.

^TRUTH^

Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2023, 11:48:26 AM

LMAO, 

Don't know if I'd be able to run that, since I've been having difficulty getting a group together lately, and I'd rather finish and test my own system. But I just did a test SWADE character earlier today for the 2023 Character Creation Challenge thread at the Pub, and freaking loved how easy and straightforward it was.

I did have a few gripes with it, like not getting any free Edges at creation and relying entirely on Hindrances for starting Edges, or their extensive use Roleplaying Hindrances, which I'm normally opposed to. But those are SUPER mega easy problems to house rule away, and SWADE seems build for that kind of GM discretion in mind, and making it super easy for them to make adjustments to their game.

I'll be giving a closer look at SWADE now.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 05, 2023, 06:37:49 PM
If a small group of woke folk on twitter can get companies to make bad decisions imagine what will happen when the entire OSR (players included) get pissed at Hasbro for destroying their niche games. How hard would it be to position this as Hasbro the bully? I bet cable news would even cover the dust-up. Hasbro wouldn't want any part of that when they have a lifestyle brand to launch. They'll ignore the the original OGL and bet it all that enough will following into 3.1 virtual land.

Except that wotc has never listened to the actual players, only to the woke mob. This will be more of the same and it will likely blow over like every other one and nothings changed other than getting worse.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 06:32:27 PM
Oh my sweet summer child, this isn't the idealized world of Andy Griffin.

*ahem* Andy Griffith.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2023, 10:19:00 AM
Rules Lawyer had a video showing the wording and apparently if you opt-in anything you create is usable by WotC for perpetuity even if they cancel the license. I assume this means new spells, monsters, classes, etc and not entire products but it could mean literally everything.

Thats in the old one too. By using the DMs guild you forfeit the right to your stuff in perpetuity.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on January 06, 2023, 07:45:56 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 06:32:27 PM
Oh my sweet summer child, this isn't the idealized world of Andy Griffin.

*ahem* Andy Griffith.

Clearly, you've never visited my campaign world.

High-level Paladin

Quote from: Effete on January 06, 2023, 05:46:45 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on January 06, 2023, 04:48:28 PM
The other thing Hasbro CAN do is try to revoke OGL 1.0a and drown anyone fighting them with paper. It might not matter what a judge thinks if Hasbro bankrupts you with lawyers before you get to a judgment.

Hell, if you fear Hasbro can do that it changes your likelihood to fight. I think legal at Hasbro is betting on that fear.

That's only if things go to litigation. *If* a judge rules that 1.0a can be revoked, an appeal to get it overturned would cost about $4-600 bucks and you wouldn't even need to show up to court. Get a dozen or so complaintants to sign onto the appeal and split the cost. Or crowdfund it.

It seems like Hasbro and their crooked lawyers are banking on the ambiguity of the word "authorized" in clause #9 to support their case. That word does not mean Wizards can revoke the license, though, it just means that Joe Schmoe down the road can't write a version 1.0x and expect it to be legally binding.

Hasbro/WotC have very little chance of erasing 1.0a completely. They can make it virtually obsolete by requiring all future products to use 1.1, but from what I know of that version (I've not read the entire thing yet) only morons would opt-into it.

All that being said, a separate license for the OSR, with game terms divorced from anything WotC can claim as IP, is a great idea. It would require a lot of collaboration and different publishers agreeing on what terms should be used, but anything that gives the finger to Hasbro/WotC is a good thing.

I wish you were right, but unfortunately I believe you are wrong.

By the misfortune of having studied law, I have a wide network of attorneys in my contacts. I already consulted with one of the top IP lawyers in the United States about this issue and the situation is grim. The attorney I spoke to is personally familiar with Hasbro and he said that Hasbro's litigation war chest is absolutely huge and they are out for blood. He said to expect them to litigate to win back their IP rights with a courtroom battle lasting 3-4 years. I asked him if I could fight back with a $100,000 GoFundMe and he literally laughed. He said it would cost $500,000 simply to get through pre-trial motions and $2-3M to see it through to completion. Hasbro will utterly bury any opponent in motions. The expense alone makes it impossible for anyone at all to fight this except the likes of Paizo. He stressed this over and over in the call: It doesn't matter how good my argument is because I will never get to make that argument. I'll be bankrupt before then.

Moreover, Wizards doesn't even need to litigate. It just needs to persuade Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG that the bread is buttered on their side. Then they can simply have my game, Pundit's game, anyone's game they don't like, shut off from the crowdfunding and distribution we need to be viable. They can do the same on YouTube, just as music companies and Nintendo do, on anyone they want to tread on. We already know how platforms behave in the face of corporate bullies. It will happen in our industry, too, if we're not careful.

I asked what my options were, given this dire situation, and he said "try not to let them notice you." Well, they've already noticed me. "Release anything you can before the new license drops." Well, what about my future product? "Never use the OGL and SRD again in the future and hope they don't care enough to sue you anyway."

The attorney I spoke to is a gamer, has impeccable credentials, and is a trusted friend of 20 years; he has no reason to lie to me or dissuade me. So, based on the advice of the best expert I know, I believe the situation is quite dire. I wish it were a case of crying wolf, but there is literally a wolf and it's here to feast.

I wish I had better news but that's the cold splash of water I got in my face yesterday.

Quote from: Omega on January 06, 2023, 07:51:18 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2023, 10:19:00 AM
Rules Lawyer had a video showing the wording and apparently if you opt-in anything you create is usable by WotC for perpetuity even if they cancel the license. I assume this means new spells, monsters, classes, etc and not entire products but it could mean literally everything.

Thats in the old one too. By using the DMs guild you forfeit the right to your stuff in perpetuity.

Nope, that's a sepparate agreement you "sign" in order to be able to publish on the DMs Guild.

Quote from: amacris on January 06, 2023, 08:23:26 PM

Quote from: Effete on January 06, 2023, 05:46:45 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on January 06, 2023, 04:48:28 PM
The other thing Hasbro CAN do is try to revoke OGL 1.0a and drown anyone fighting them with paper. It might not matter what a judge thinks if Hasbro bankrupts you with lawyers before you get to a judgment.

Hell, if you fear Hasbro can do that it changes your likelihood to fight. I think legal at Hasbro is betting on that fear.

That's only if things go to litigation. *If* a judge rules that 1.0a can be revoked, an appeal to get it overturned would cost about $4-600 bucks and you wouldn't even need to show up to court. Get a dozen or so complaintants to sign onto the appeal and split the cost. Or crowdfund it.

It seems like Hasbro and their crooked lawyers are banking on the ambiguity of the word "authorized" in clause #9 to support their case. That word does not mean Wizards can revoke the license, though, it just means that Joe Schmoe down the road can't write a version 1.0x and expect it to be legally binding.

Hasbro/WotC have very little chance of erasing 1.0a completely. They can make it virtually obsolete by requiring all future products to use 1.1, but from what I know of that version (I've not read the entire thing yet) only morons would opt-into it.

All that being said, a separate license for the OSR, with game terms divorced from anything WotC can claim as IP, is a great idea. It would require a lot of collaboration and different publishers agreeing on what terms should be used, but anything that gives the finger to Hasbro/WotC is a good thing.

I wish you were right, but unfortunately I believe you are wrong.

By the misfortune of having studied law, I have a wide network of attorneys in my contacts. I already consulted with one of the top IP lawyers in the United States about this issue and the situation is grim. The attorney I spoke to is personally familiar with Hasbro and he said that Hasbro's litigation war chest is absolutely huge and they are out for blood. He said to expect them to litigate to win back their IP rights with a courtroom battle lasting 3-4 years. I asked him if I could fight back with a $100,000 GoFundMe and he literally laughed. He said it would cost $500,000 simply to get through pre-trial motions and $2-3M to see it through to completion. Hasbro will utterly bury any opponent in motions. The expense alone makes it impossible for anyone at all to fight this except the likes of Paizo. He stressed this over and over in the call: It doesn't matter how good my argument is because I will never get to make that argument. I'll be bankrupt before then.

Moreover, Wizards doesn't even need to litigate. It just needs to persuade Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG that the bread is buttered on their side. Then they can simply have my game, Pundit's game, anyone's game they don't like, shut off from the crowdfunding and distribution we need to be viable. They can do the same on YouTube, just as music companies and Nintendo do, on anyone they want to tread on. We already know how platforms behave in the face of corporate bullies. It will happen in our industry, too, if we're not careful.

I asked what my options were, given this dire situation, and he said "try not to let them notice you." Well, they've already noticed me. "Release anything you can before the new license drops." Well, what about my future product? "Never use the OGL and SRD again in the future and hope they don't care enough to sue you anyway."

The attorney I spoke to is a gamer, has impeccable credentials, and is a trusted friend of 20 years; he has no reason to lie to me or dissuade me. So, based on the advice of the best expert I know, I believe the situation is quite dire. I wish it were a case of crying wolf, but there is literally a wolf and it's here to feast.

I wish I had better news but that's the cold splash of water I got in my face yesterday.

Or, you could identify everyone within Hasbro driving this and pay a sicario...  It's about the same level of success as trying to litigate. So, the answer still seems to be that you just have to never support 5e or 6e.  Starve them of content.

Basically sounds like nothing short of a crowdfunded class action of all the large and small players would really have the monetary resources to counter (barring some very dedicated pro bono angels... but even they would have expenses probably in the hundreds of thousands if they were lucky).

Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 06, 2023, 08:34:55 PM

Quote from: Omega on January 06, 2023, 07:51:18 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2023, 10:19:00 AM
Rules Lawyer had a video showing the wording and apparently if you opt-in anything you create is usable by WotC for perpetuity even if they cancel the license. I assume this means new spells, monsters, classes, etc and not entire products but it could mean literally everything.

Thats in the old one too. By using the DMs guild you forfeit the right to your stuff in perpetuity.

Nope, that's a sepparate agreement you "sign" in order to be able to publish on the DMs Guild.

I don't know what the DMs Guild agreement is, but the OGL 1.0a does mean that you permanently give away exclusive rights to any derivative material and anything else you declare open. That's sort of the point. WotC or anyone else can use any of your open material.

In practice, I don't think WotC has ever published any commercial product under the OGL, so it seems like a moot point. Still, in principle, they could.

That's been a problem for some publishers, like Green Ronin Games complaining about publishing an SRD of their True20 material.