TheRPGSite

Quote from: Mike MearlsThis may sound strange, coming from R&D—but it’s easy to mistake what Wizards of the Coast publishes as the core essence of D&D. We might print the rules for the current version of the game, or produce accessories you use at your table, but the game is what you, the community of D&D fans and players, make it. D&D is the moments in the game, the interplay within a gaming group, the memories formed that last forever. It’s intensely personal. It’s your experience as a group, the stories that you and your friends share to this day. No specific rule, no random opinion, no game concept from an R&D designer, no change to the game’s mechanics can alter that.

Quote from: Benoist;441249Where Mike Mearls talks about the past in order to find his future.

Read the entire column there (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110208) (no DDI account required), and tell me what you think. Good, bad thing? How does the column read to you? I'd like to know what you guys think.

Quote from: jeff37923;441252That and I feel they stole the name Legends & Lore from FFG's line of 3rd edition books.

Quote from: The Butcher;441254Legends & Lore was the AD&D 2e incarnation of Deities & Demigods.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;441270At least here:

"... AD&D in any of its forms, 3rd Edition and its descendents, or 4th Edition,..."

he finally admits 4th edition is a weird aberration of the game, not descended from 3rd edition in any recognizable way.

Quote from: The Butcher;441254That would be Legends & Lairs (Mike Mearls even wrote a few of those).

Legends & Lore was the AD&D 2e incarnation of Deities & Demigods.

Quote from: JimLotFP;441263Deities & Demigods was renamed Legends & Lore for the 1985 (?) orange-spine reprints of the 1e AD&D hardcovers.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;441265Deities & Demigods was later re-used in 2e as a Demihuman Deity specific sourcebook to supplement the 2e Legends & Lore.

Quote from: Spinachcat;441260WotC is wasting time and energy trying to appeal to geezers.

Fuck'em.  That's energy better spent on high school and college kids who have disposable incomes and interest in new experiences.

Quote from: jeff37923;441293Except this column would suggest that WotC is desperate to bring those geezers you disparage back into the fold.

Quote from: MearlsThis may sound strange, coming from R&D—but it’s easy to mistake what Wizards of the Coast publishes as the core essence of D&D. We might print the rules for the current version of the game, or produce accessories you use at your table, but the game is what you, the community of D&D fans and players, make it.

Quote from: JoeWOTC is not just the company that owns the intellectual property called Dungeons and Dragons, they are also the caretakers of a hobby that thousands enjoy every day. In that regard, they have a different level of responsibility which, to the extent that they are not carrying out that responsibility while paying attention to the bottom line, they seem to land themselves in hot water.

Quote from: Spinachcat;441260That's energy better spent on high school and college kids who have disposable incomes and interest in new experiences.

Quote from: David Johansen;441271It sounds to me like WotC desperately trying to heal the rift they caused.  One can only hope that the genie is truly out of the bottle and the effort is bound to fail.

Quote from: estar;441315The article is nice however it misses the fundamental point is that people want to play D&D. I.e. the rules of their favorite edition.  The problem is that Wizards tries to foist the rules of Chess on people wanting to play Checkers.  The issues are compounded by the fact the new game winds up being fun to play and develops a fan base of it's own.

I don't see any way resolve this easily.  Now there effectively three major group of D&D fans. Pre 3e fanbase which is small but now growing slowly again , 3e fanbase which has been taken over by Pathfinder and the 4e group currently supported by Wizards.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441316Well, I agree with that, but I don't think that these three groups suddenly have to start playing the same edition. I think they have to realize that they are part of the same thing, though.. and then just sort of move on in a constructive way.

At what point do people finally shake hands and move on? Should there be fistfights first? It's getting ridiculous.

QuoteFor anyone that says "I can't run the game I like in 4e" - I can't imagine the boring non-adventure anti-game clusterfuck of a miserable kinda-like D&D experience that you prefer.

Quoteit isn't so much that I think Mike likes 1e (I guess) more than 4e as he seems less than comfortable with pre-Essentials 4e. I get the distinct impression that in essence WotC sees 'classic' 4e as a bit of a brick tied around their necks at this point and would sort of like to pretend it never happened. I can kind of sympathize in a way, it would be a lot easier to just go forward and work things out from the spot Essentials is at now without reference to what came before. But they have a lot of SKUs in stock and a lot of fans of the original game holding them back. Not that I share that sentiment myself, but there it is.

QuoteRight, we agree, pre-Essentials 'classic' 4e is great. I don't have an issue with Essentials either. In fact I don't really have any big issues with the mix of materials WotC is coming out with now vis-a-vis the two. I just get the impression that it would be mighty convenient for WotC if they could forget pre-Essentials 4e exists. In a way it would be nice as it would kick the clutter WAY down, they could pull out of the old stuff what really worked well and leave behind a bunch of stuff that was just kind of marginal noise (loads of feats, a lot of rather useless powers, certain builds that simply never really worked well, etc). The rest could be Essentialized to one degree or another.

Quote from: kregmosier;441317do you think comments like:



help to produce some sort of "kumbaya" moment? are they constructive?

Quote from: Spinachcat;441260WotC is wasting time and energy trying to appeal to geezers.

Fuck'em.  That's energy better spent on high school and college kids who have disposable incomes and interest in new experiences.

Quote from: Windjammer;441295/snip
But, and this is the most damning thing, Mearls has said this all before (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8303253&postcount=96)(see also this post (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=8302214#post8302214)). Given how little substance there was behind these remarks in January 2008, I'm skeptical how true they are now.

Quote from: Windjammer;441320Interesting set of comments from a poster on Enworld:


Reply: "But pre essential 4e is good."

Quote from: jeff37923;441293Except this column would suggest that WotC is desperate to bring those geezers you disparage back into the fold.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441316Well, I agree with that, but I don't think that these three groups suddenly have to start playing the same edition. I think they have to realize that they are part of the same thing, though.. and then just sort of move on in a constructive way.

At what point do people finally shake hands and move on? Should there be fistfights first? It's getting ridiculous.

Quote from: estar;441334So where does the owner of the D&D brand go forward from here?

Quote from: RandallS;441305The only thing I can see that WOTC could do that would actually help heal the wounds would be to re-release all the pdfs of pre-4e material (at no higher than the prices they had before being pulled) on the open market...

Quote from: Tetsubo;441333Geezer here. I'm gone. I was disenfranchised by WotC by their release of 4E and the marketing debacle that ensued. I will not discount the possibility that WotC might at some future date create something that interests me. But the probability of that is about as likely as pigs sprouting wings and flying to Capistrano. I've migrated to Pathfinder.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441314For anyone that says "I can't run the game I like in 4e" - I can't imagine the boring non-adventure anti-game clusterfuck of a miserable kinda-like D&D experience that you prefer.

Quote from: Seanchai;441340Just that, huh? You say, "I think 4e is the worst edition of D&D ever published...," but if WotC just released those PDFs, you'd start purchasing their products?

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441345Mike said this in a much nicer way, but what I get out of it is this: The issue is not the edition of the game at all, it's the incessant mewling about "What is my identity if I don't play the current version of D&D?".. and the answer is of course, your identity is the same as it always was. Get over it. It's D&D.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441345It's D&D.


Considering retro clones and Pathfinder: all that means to me is that nobody has any excuse to be whining that they can't buy the edition that they want anymore. Because of course they can.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441345Mike said this in a much nicer way, but what I get out of it is this: The issue is not the edition of the game at all, it's the incessant mewling about "What is my identity if I don't play the current version of D&D?".. and the answer is of course, your identity is the same as it always was. Get over it. It's ALL D&D.

Considering retro clones and Pathfinder: all that means to me is that nobody has any excuse to be whining that they can't buy the edition that they want anymore. Because of course they can.

Quote from: estar;441334They forgot that once opening the open source genie they can't bottle it back up. With the release of 4e they did exactly the right steps to throw away being the market leader a open source market place.  Now Paizo is dogging them every step of the way.

Wizards shutting down of all PDF sales instead of just 4e PDFs effectively created the marketplace for the retro-clones. It is a small marketplace to be sure but the tabletop RPGs market is small to begin with every sales counts so to speak.

So where does the owner of the D&D brand go forward from here?

Quote from: jeff37923;441349And what people get out of this is that you are an asshole to gamers who do not play Your Favorite Game.

QuoteThe presence of this column suggests that WotC recognizes that potential customers are turning away from their offered product to one that appeals to them and it bothers WotC enough to try and rectify the situation.

Quote from: JasperAK;441351FIFY

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441354I think there's some recognition at this point that there is a certain faction of the 4th Edition D&D userbase that was actively hostile to non-4E users, embarrassing to deal with, reactionary, a bit on the dull side, big on memorizing lore, but not much on actually playing unless it is through RPGA or WotC sanctioned events, and tending to draw all of the wrong kinds of attention.

That's all WotC's problem now. I personally can't thank WOTC enough.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441354I think there's some recognition at this point that there is a certain faction of the former D&D userbase that was actively hostile to new users, embarrassing to deal with, reactionary, a bit on the dull side, big on memorizing lore, but not much on actually playing, and tended to draw all of the wrong kinds of attention.

Quote from: jeff37923;441360This time I FIFY.

Quote from: Windjammer;441363And you see that in Mearls' editorial? Also... (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5220014-post.html)

Quote from: CRKrueger;441352Basically, they were going by the standard corporate playbook and the guy calling the shots knew fuck-all about RPGs.  They could have stayed the owner of all D&D Editions, but they tried to force a situation where all D&Ders could play 4th Edition only.  Dump the pdfs, change 4th Edition to the GSL, hell even pull the 1e licence from Kenzer.  

Someone over there thought D&D was like Magic, tell the kids what edition is cool, enforce the edition mill through tournaments, and watch the lemmings get in line to play the only edition that matters, the current officially sanctioned one.  Only RPGs aren't like Magic, and they found themselves losing a whole lot of customers.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441345Mike said this in a much nicer way, but what I get out of it is this: The issue is not the edition of the game at all, it's the incessant mewling about "What is my identity if I don't play the current version of D&D?".. and the answer is of course, your identity is the same as it always was. Get over it. It's D&D.

Considering retro clones and Pathfinder: all that means to me is that nobody has any excuse to be whining that they can't buy the edition that they want anymore. Because of course they can.

Quote from: Windjammer;441369Har! I guess it's hard to believe that such people are wanted back when one hangs out with the cool crowd (http://www.bannedinhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/3321829085_d7c38f2efd.jpg).

Quick: where did you last see this image on this site?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441355You didnt understand that was my meaning in the first place?

Quote from: Windjammer;441369Har! I guess it's hard to believe that such people are wanted back when one hangs out with the cool crowd (http://www.bannedinhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/3321829085_d7c38f2efd.jpg).

Quick: where did you last see this image on this site?

Quote from: JasperAK;441348Yeah Seanchai, if WOTC offered PDFs of material I don't have in my collection, then I would--by definition--purchase their products.

Quote from: JasperAK;441374I was trying to be a little more subtle, but others have since picked up on your  challenge.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441354This is probably a comforting notion, but I don't think it's the case.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441372Back when Settembrini was using it to slur 4e players last year, probably.

Quote from: Benoist;441377Obesity scooter. Settembrini. ... the exact occurrence escapes me!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441372Quick! Let's distract everyone with an irrelevant picture!

Quote from: Seanchai;441340Just that, huh? You say, "I think 4e is the worst edition of D&D ever published...," but if WotC just released those PDFs, you'd start purchasing their products?

Quote from: Windjammer;441383Well done! Treasure parcels, player entitlement.

QuoteDistract ... from what exactly? Your excursus on the unwanted fandom of yesteryear?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441381It will never be that year again.

Quote from: RandallS;441385...I will not buy 4e stuff...

Quote from: Seanchai;441391Right.

All this talk about PDFs bringing in customers, being good for WotC's bottom line, etc., is just that - talk. People might - *might* - but a few of TSR's products, but that's not really helping WotC with their bread and butter. The idea that WotC should make the PDFs available out of self-interest is just foolishness.

And I stress might because a) those materials are still available, b) I think it's highly likely they're still available for free in electronic format, and c) they were available for a while and folks didn't seem to be an awful hurry to snap them up. How desperately, vitally important to someone could they possibly be if he or she didn't download them when they were available?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;441378Except I'm not talking about the PDFs being offered up. Even if they're not offered as free products, they're certainly immaterial. I'm asking, if WotC releases those PDFs, many of which were free anyway, would you start purchasing their products - 4e, Essentials, Tiles, DDI subscriptions?

Answer: no.

Quote from: Windjammer;441397I'm trying to imagine what I would have done if the tables would have been reversed.

Let's say that in the actual world, WotC' designers decided to make a fourth edition of D&D into more of a thing that apparently most people who never liked D&D that much have been craving all along.

I (and presumably all other 4e fans) then have a choice: We can start showing up on various blogs and forums to insult previous editions and everyone who plays them, perhaps even taking steps to organize an effort.. we make sure and whine loudly about how things ARE NOW (good) and how things USED TO BE (bad)..  We otherwise get involved in all kinds of sociopathic public and theatrical lamentations about the present and how much we despise (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=441314&postcount=19) those (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=441345&postcount=36) who prefer past editions.

Loud and constant mewling and squealing about identity? Or I could write long drawn out and pseudo-scientific blog posts about how few goblins I could kill BACK THEN, now that I've run the numbers. Once some ex-designer got purged from the company and cranked up some clone knockoff I would loudly deride his efforts, and ridicule people buying his books.

Or...

I could let it go and continue doing the stuff I enjoyed doing.

And I'm thinking, I'd do that second thing. I bet almost all normal people would. Because life is too short, and jesus, that would be an embarrassing way to live. Perhaps I'd also choose that second path just out of laziness.

...But, on reflection, I'm not lazy. I'd rather repeat the one post I wrote some time in early 2008, even when discussion moves only vaguely into that territory.

Quote from: danbuter;441401AM, you're the one making a scene about it.

Like others have said, I was happy to give WotC money for pdf's of older editions. You're the one who says I shouldn't be given the option to buy older edition stuff, because I'm just a geezer.

Quote from: Settembrini;441337Right, without 4e, no kumbaya would be needed. We WERE in kumbaya-land until 4e came along.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441402Actually SpinachCat said that. I wouldn't use the word geezer. You were actually paying RPGnow  or Paizo for those PDFs in any case.

Quote from: Benoist;441405Does it seem understandable to you that people who prefer other editions of the game would ask WotC to make materials for the iteration they want to play available for them to purchase, in one form or another?

Quote from: GameDaddy;441404I bought the Rules Cyclopedia when it was released because it was the compilation of everything 0D&D.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441398See, but I don't despise those who play early editions. I actually count myself amongst that number. And as yet, let's just be clear- people who simply "prefer other editions" have not yet appeared in this argument. Also, preference is immaterial. People like what they like and dislike what they dislike and  always and forever should be free to do so. Prefer away. Like what you like. Be free in those decisions!


But don't be a squealy little bitch about my preferences, my desires, my decisions. Is this obvious yet?

Hating (or even merely not liking) 4e is not the issue. Not being able to get over it or at least shut the fuck up about it after three years.. is sick. It's an illness. It ruins these places. It ruins fandom. It ruins discussion. It damages the hobby as a whole.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;441411Really?

No one?

I don't recall throwing a ton of hate at 4e or 3e...I simply prefer 2e (the only edition that may be anywhere near as vocally hated as 4e)...I don't fault anyone for playing anything they like, be it 1e, 4e, WOD, some storygame or whatever...since it doesn't affect my game table one bit.

Quote from: Benoist;441405Does it seem understandable to you that people who prefer other editions of the game would ask WotC to make materials for the iteration they want to play available for them to purchase, in one form or another?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441402Actually SpinachCat said that. I wouldn't use the word geezer. You were actually paying RPGnow  or Paizo for those PDFs in any case.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441408It is understandable, but always, always, always I see "I won't actually buy too much from it, since I already have everything I want.."

It's usually not so much about them wanting the PDFs, it's about them wanting the PDFs to be for sale to other people.

You know there's a huge pile of old PDFs still available on the wizards website, or there was until a few months ago. They shifted the front facing page away but I think the files have been there all along.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441408You know there's a huge pile of old PDFs still available on the wizards website, or there was until a few months ago. They shifted the front facing page away but I think the files have been there all along.

Quote from: Melan;441413Frankly, I think people focus too much on the PDF issue. It makes sense if you are specifically interested in obscure 2e supplements like Maztica or The Complete Sha'ir's Handbook. But otherwise, the systems are freely available in just about any variation you'd like, there is a metric fuckton of free and commercial support material (a lot of it significantly better than the majority of TSR's output) and the rest is fairly cheap on eBay. If I put down my fountain pen today and never wrote another adventure, I could still run a weekly game for years and years without paying a cent, except for the ink in my printer and the snacks.

Quote from: danbuter;441401AM, you're the one making a scene about it.

Quote from: Benoist;441416Well, I think AM does have a point there. I mean, between the various means of still getting this stuff, including illegal means (yes, I'm saying gamers download stuff illegally. They do. No need to ignore this), the new stuff for old editions that comes out of the clones and all, publishers like Pied Piper Publishing still putting out stuff for the games without going through the clones, and so on, there is reason to say people are kind of wasting their time bitching about WotC when all that stuff is readily available for them to play anyway.

So really, it is valid question to ask: we have OSRIC, LL, S&W, 2e clones, other, entirely new games inspired by old editions (like Stars Without Number et al.) coming out. What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway? An official apology? This Mearls column here seems to be as close as we're going to get, IMO.

Quote from: RandallS;441395They'd be getting some of my money.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;441392Now, some of those products are available still...

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;441392Just about every major RPG product is out there for free if you know where to look, but I don't exactly feel comfortable with that route.

Quote from: Benoist;441416So really, it is valid question to ask: we have OSRIC, LL, S&W, 2e clones, other, entirely new games inspired by old editions (like Stars Without Number et al.) coming out. What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway? An official apology?

Quote from: Benoist;441416Well, I think AM does have a point there. I mean, between the various means of still getting this stuff, including illegal means (yes, I'm saying gamers download stuff illegally. They do. No need to ignore this), the new stuff for old editions that comes out of the clones and all, publishers like Pied Piper Publishing still putting out stuff for the games without going through the clones, and so on, there is reason to say people are kind of wasting their time bitching about WotC when all that stuff is readily available for them to play anyway.

So really, it is valid question to ask: we have OSRIC, LL, S&W, 2e clones, other, entirely new games inspired by old editions (like Stars Without Number et al.) coming out. What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway? An official apology? This Mearls column here seems to be as close as we're going to get, IMO.

Quote from: jeff37923;441293Except this column would suggest that WotC is desperate to bring those geezers you disparage back into the fold.

Quote from: jrients;4412981) Have you ever seen how much money grown men will sink into their hobbies?

Quote from: jrients;441298Or when you say "new experiences" do you really mean "the latest thing that a marketing department tells me is cool"?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441316At what point do people finally shake hands and move on? Should there be fistfights first? It's getting ridiculous.

Quote from: estar;441334So where does the owner of the D&D brand go forward from here?

Quote from: Seanchai;441421Which ones aren't?

Seanchai

Quote from: Spinachcat;441425These fans only watch the 1983 games, only talk about the 1983 players, bitch and moan endlessly how the 1983 players were the bestest evar and constantly disparage anything Team XYZ may have done since that year.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;441423is there a good 2e clone?

Quote from: Benoist;441416What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway? An official apology? This Mearls column here seems to be as close as we're going to get, IMO.

Quote from: Benoist;441433For Gold & Glory (http://feysquare.com/?page_id=3) and Myth & Magic (http://www.newhavengames.com/?page_id=23), are two clones coming to mind. I don't know if they're worth it, given my lack of interest in 2e game mechanics. I didn't bother to check them out: might hit the spot for you, I have no idea.

Quote from: Melan;441436Not much. They interest me inasmuch they generate insightful and level-headed online discussion (like this thread) and have a lot of influence on where the hobby/industry are going, which fascinates me.

Quote from: Seanchai;441422A better question: what could WotC possibly say or do to get you to purchase their products? If there's nothing they can do or say, what's your point in hanging around?

Seanchai

Quote from: jeff37923;441444WotC could apologize for the behavior of their more vocal and obnoxiously abrasive fans who also represent the RPGA. That would go a long way in my book to repairing the rift they deliberately created for themselves.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441449WotC don't need to apologise to anyone.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441449WotC don't need to apologise to anyone.

Quote from: jeff37923;441453Considering that their 4E public relations campaign was instrumental in creating this All Other Editions of D&D Suxx0rs attitude that is embraced and promulgated by the 4E Zealots, I think they should step up and take a little responsibility for the results they created.

Quote from: Benoist;441416So really, it is valid question to ask: we have OSRIC, LL, S&W, 2e clones, other, entirely new games inspired by old editions (like Stars Without Number et al.) coming out. What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway? An official apology? This Mearls column here seems to be as close as we're going to get, IMO.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441455Any company releasing a new/upgraded version of a product would be remiss if they didn't say the new product was an improvement.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441455The difference between most products and RPGs is that an old shampoo formulation, for example, isn't available after the release of a new formulation.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441455I don't think that means that the new RPG product should be released to cries of, "this is better! Unless you think older versions are better!" from the company in charge.

Quote from: jeff37923;441460I agree, but that was not what the PR campaign said. It proclaimed that not only was 4E new and improved, but that everything previous sucked.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441462Where and when did they say this? This was the interpretation of a lot of people..(who were all too willing to cast themselves in the role of victim) but I really doubt that was what was said or meant.

Quote from: jeff37923;441444WotC could apologize for the behavior of their more vocal and obnoxiously abrasive fans who also represent the RPGA. That would go a long way in my book to repairing the rift they deliberately created for themselves.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441465I recall that it was whiny bitches like you who started by calling out the RPGA as an insidious menace (which is in effect, every single person who has even played D&D Encounters a single time). And now you're flapping your wings and crying out "i'm wounded?"

Jeez.

Anyhow, if you'd like to call out the RPGA personally, I suggest you start with a former director of organized play who works for Paizo. Stephen Radney McFarland. Or other RPGA alumni like.. Jason Buhlman, Eric Mona.. Or .. wait.. I think the entire creative staff of the Pathfinder RPG minus the artists.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441467Sadly, i think he's refering, at least tangentially, to you.

Quote from: One Horse Town;441467Sadly, i think he's refering, at least tangentally, to you.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441462Where and when did they say this? This was the interpretation of a lot of people..(who were all too willing to cast themselves in the role of victim) but I really doubt that was what was said or meant.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441465I recall that it was whiny bitches like you who started by calling out the RPGA as an insidious menace (which is in effect, every single person who has even played D&D Encounters a single time). And now you're flapping your wings and crying out "i'm wounded?"

Jeez.

Anyhow, if you'd like to call out the RPGA personally, I suggest you start with a former director of organized play who works for Paizo. Stephen Radney McFarland. Or other RPGA alumni like.. Jason Buhlman, Eric Mona.. Or .. wait.. I think the entire creative staff of the Pathfinder RPG minus the artists.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441468I'm trying to use my imagination here and figure out what Jeff thinks the RPGA actually is other than a bunch of guys playing D&D.

Ok fine. I demand apologies too. Everyone get in line.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441468Ok fine. I demand apologies too. Everyone get in line.

Quote from: jeff37923;441471Struck a nerve with you, haven't I?

Quote from: One Horse Town;441472Apologize for correcting my spelling, arsehole!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441468Ok fine. I demand apologies too. Everyone get in line.

Quote from: David Johansen;441475I'm sorry you're in denial about being an edition warring troll.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441473No, I'm hoping you'll post an example. Have you got anything? Come on let's see it!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441474uhm, sorry!

Quote from: One Horse Town;441478Fucking yanks.

Quote from: jeff37923;441477Everyone who has read your diatribes knows how you are. Just like how you are being an asshole in this thread right now to anyone who doesn't share your absolute fawning devotion to Your Favorite Game.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441482You can't quote a single thing? Not even one thing?  You guys say this so often there should be some kind of quote someone can point to.

Quote from: jeff37923;441479Always yanking your chains....

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441476I'm sorry you actually think Gurps is fun. Boom. Roasted. NEXT.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441462Where and when did they say this? This was the interpretation of a lot of people..(who were all too willing to cast themselves in the role of victim) but I really doubt that was what was said or meant.

Quote from: David Johansen;441271It sounds to me like WotC desperately trying to heal the rift they caused.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441314For anyone that says "I can't run the game I like in 4e"

Quote from: Seanchai;441378Because this has never been about PDFs. If the PDFs were available now, folks would simply find something else to use as a...reason why they dislike WotC and 4e.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441398But don't be a squealy little bitch about my preferences, my desires, my decisions. Is this obvious yet?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441476I'm sorry you actually think Gurps is fun.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441354... there is a certain faction of the former D&D userbase that was actively hostile to new users, embarrassing to deal with, reactionary, a bit on the dull side, big on memorizing lore, but not much on actually playing, and tended to draw all of the wrong kinds of attention.  That's all Paizo's problem now.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441314For anyone that says "I can't run the game I like in 4e" - I can't imagine the boring non-adventure anti-game clusterfuck of a miserable kinda-like D&D experience that you prefer. I admit that I simply choose to assume that your'e just uncomfortable with the new or just attached to the old, and there's nothing wrong with either of those. In either case, it doesn't mean anything other than a non-opinion.

Quote from: danbuter;441490I guess you didn't watch the YouTube videos WotC posted in the months preceding 4e? If not, then you missed most of the crap they were saying about 3e and earlier editions.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbqMoEwDqc

Quote from: Justin Alexander;441543If you look up "raging fucking hypocrite" in the dictionary you'll find a picture of Abyssal Maw.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;441270At least here:

"... AD&D in any of its forms, 3rd Edition and its descendents, or 4th Edition,..."

he finally admits 4th edition is a weird aberration of the game, not descended from 3rd edition in any recognizable way.

Quote from: Piestrio;441562Cool. Now when are people going to admit that 3rd edition is a weird aberration, not descended from D&D in any recognizable way?

;)

Quote from: Piestrio;441562Cool. Now when are people going to admit that 3rd edition is a weird aberration, not descended from D&D in any recognizable way?

;)

Quote from: Benoist;441416So really, it is valid question to ask: we have OSRIC, LL, S&W, 2e clones, other, entirely new games inspired by old editions (like Stars Without Number et al.) coming out. What is it that we want from WotC at this point, anyway?

Quote from: Melan;441436Not much. They interest me inasmuch they generate insightful and level-headed online discussion (like this thread) and have a lot of influence on where the hobby/industry are going, which fascinates me.

Quote from: danbuter;441581AM, You must have really long arms, because you're reaching farther than anyone I've ever seen.

Quote from: danbuter;441628The whole video made fun of earlier D&D, not just it's grappling checks. You're trying to be pedantic about a video. You look like a fat cheerleader that everyone wishes would just go away.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441634Can you tell me in your own words what you think a paranoid delusion is?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441634Can you tell me in your own words what you think a paranoid delusional is?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441379And I'm thinking, I'd do that second thing. I bet almost all normal people would. Because life is too short, and jesus, that would be an embarrassing way to live. Perhaps I'd also choose that second path just out of laziness. Because hatred and constant mewling just looks like a lot of work.

Quote from: Spinachcat;441650You bitching about grappling in 3e?  Try grappling in AD&D 1e using the RAW.  

Even the most ardent Gygax worshippers on Dragonsfoot won't touch that one.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;441665I had one player who insisted on using it - big Champions player back in the day so it was actually kind of workable from his point of view.

Quote from: StormBringer;441682Yeah, but that is like a PhD in advanced imaginary number theory saying that differential calculus is kind of workable from their point of view.  ;)

Quote from: thedungeondelver;441700Hey, I'm certainly not going to argue that point.

Also, to be fair, the grappling rules were suggested by Al Hammack.  Even Gary disavowed those things PDQ.

Quote from: CRKrueger;441697If I am remembering right, that was one of the good things about 2E, somewhere in there, they had rules for brawling and wrestling that were pretty simple, yet fun.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;441700Hey, I'm certainly not going to argue that point.

Also, to be fair, the grappling rules were suggested by Al Hammack.  Even Gary disavowed those things PDQ.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;441543If you look up "raging fucking hypocrite" in the dictionary you'll find a picture of Abyssal Maw.

QuoteOn the one hand, I can agree with Mearls. Why do we obsess over the specific rules of our edition? People who played football talk about how they played football, and don't scream "YOU PLAYED WITHOUT TWO POINT CONVERSIONS YOU ARE THE ANTICHRIST." "YOU YOUNG PUPS THAT PLAY WITH HELMETS AND PADS ARE WUSSES." Concentrate on the shared experience and let people do it the way they like.

On the other hand, there's a really, really good chance that this is apologetics for what they are about to do to D&D, which will transform it away from what even 4e players recognize as an RPG, and plead "but aren't we a big tent CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG." "This is the current incarnation of the D&D BRAND, you can experience it in, you know, other ways if you like, DON'T HIT ME IT'S NOT MY FAULT HASBRO MADE ME."

QuoteSeeing M[ikeMearls'] touchy feely articles about how its all one big happy family feels, well, fake. I don't feel the sincerity. [...]
I've seen editions come and go, and frankly, there is good and bad in every edition, even the original (sorry diaglo). What I take away from this little pep talk is that something is afoot (and I don't mean that thing on the end of my leg). The last time we got this pep talk, they launched a new edition, I don't think 5e is coming, but something is.

Last time it went something like this:
1) No holiday lay-offs (check)
2) Abrupt end to the publishing schedule (check)
3) Touchy-feely pep talk (check)
4) RPGA structure change (rumors abound)
5) Late GenCon participation (pending)
6) Announcement at GenCon (TBA)

Take it for what its worth, but frankly, I don't think any of it is going to matter after August....

Quote from: Windjammer;441791Edit. Ah, a later poster puts it in better (less ironical) terms:
http://enworld.org/showthread.php?t=301517&page=6#post5471928

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441796Do you guys ever just like.. take a break from all of the smugness and bile for a second and realize your'e talking about a game where people pretend to be elves?

Quote from: CRKrueger;441697If I am remembering right, that was one of the good things about 2E, somewhere in there, they had rules for brawling and wrestling that were pretty simple, yet fun.

Quote from: jrients;441815Yeah, those are good rules, one of the innovations introduced by 2e that seemed like they were on the ball.  The 2e take on the bard was also pretty sweet, I thought.  But that's another thread I suppose.

By the way, the 1st edition AD&D grappling rules in their entirety are roughly the same size as the summary that AM posted upthread.  I've found using both to be a giant pain in the ass and neither did a good job generating what I would consider interesting results.  The 2E rules or the brawling rules from Boot Hill produce more juice, in my opinion, and the OD&D unarmed rules (from the FAQ in the Strategic Review) do a pretty good job for an abstract system.

Quote from: danbuter;441814I'm going to laugh when 5e is announced at GenCon and all 4e defenders are left high and dry.

Quote from: danbuter;441814I'm going to laugh when 5e is announced at GenCon and all 4e defenders are left high and dry. I really, really hope the WotC ads go like this:

"We realize that 4e was a colossal mistake and cost us around half our customers. 5e will go back towards the game we all loved. 4e is our Windows ME."

Quote from: ggroy;441845In 5E, they will be copying more video game style mechanics.  :rolleyes:

They will eliminate AC altogether and replace it with "armor as hit points".

Also when badguys/monsters are killed, they will "drop" items.

:D

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441850I don't know what you are talking about but I just generated a 12th level Mordenkainen Space Dracula.

Quote from: ggroy;441855Levels will be expanded with each successive "expansion" splatbook.


The core 5E D&D book will only go to level 100.

The first expansion splatbook will extend it to level 150.

The second expansion splatbook will extend it to level 250.

The third expansion splatbook will extend it to level 500.

The fourth expansion splatbook will extend it to level 1000.

etc ....

:rolleyes:  :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

Quote from: StormBringer;441858Luckily, there are a number of attacks (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Kamehameha) already designed for those books, just waiting to be used.  :)

Quote from: jgants;441844However, I think it's even more foolish to think that D&D will ever return back to something that looks like OD&D or even AD&D.  It won't.  The 70's and 80's are gone, and they are never coming back.

Quote from: jrients;441861I reject the implicit analogy to fashion here as much as I reject comparing D&D editions to technology.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441865It's not a matter of fashion, it's a matter of "is this something we make for people who want to play games or is this like a charity thing for grumpy loners"

Quote from: StormBringer;441872Don't worry, you and your fellow grumpy loners will have 4th edition stuff for a while, still.

Quote from: one horse town;441874can we have some warning before someone whips their dick out, please?

Quote from: WPN discussion on WotC forumI'm trying to become core level, and I need some help.

First, do I need to contact someone or the upgrade is automatic? When and how often it is checked?

How can I track these stats:
1-Must have run sanctioned tournaments participated in by a minimum of 30 unique people over the last 12 months
2-Must have introduced 6 new players to DCI events in the last 12 months

How does this requisite work?
Must have a delinquency rate in the last 12 months no greater than 20%
Does it means that if i ever had a high delinquency rate in the last 12 months, i wont be able to become core level? even if I fixed my tournaments by reporting then properly?

Quote from: Wikipedia on Multi-level marketingWalter J. Carl stated in a 2004 Western Journal of Communication article that "MLM organizations have been described by some as cults (Butterfield, 1985), pyramid schemes (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997), or organizations rife with misleading, deceptive, and unethical behavior (Carter, 1999), such as the questionable use of evangelical discourse to promote the business (Hopfl & Maddrell, 1996), and the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997)".

Quote from: Windjammer;441876I take it there's no money involved with recruiting new players,* but the bits I bolded above strike me as downright creepy.

*Though I did observe the hyperlink in AM's image ('click here to view which rewards are available to you').

Quote from: danbuter;441814"We realize that 4e was a colossal mistake and cost us around half our customers. 5e will go back towards the game we all loved. 4e is our Windows ME."

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441877So.. uhm.. which one of you bitches wants to know what day it is?

Quote from: One Horse Town;441879Ooh, i know!

Tuesday.

Quote from: Melan;441885I believe it is "Fucking Tuesday, you raging imbecile!" ;)

Quote from: Windjammer;441876I take it there's no money involved with recruiting new players,* but the bits I bolded above strike me as downright creepy.

*Though I did observe the hyperlink in AM's image ('click here to view which rewards are available to you').

Quote from: One Horse Town;441888Why do you hate women, AM?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441890Usually it's the backtalk.

Quote from: Doom;441880Still Wind does seem offer an explanation for AM.

Quote from: Windjammer;441876I take it there's no money involved with recruiting new players,* but the bits I bolded above strike me as downright creepy.

*Though I did observe the hyperlink in AM's image ('click here to view which rewards are available to you').

Quote from: Windjammer;441876I take it there's no money involved with recruiting new players,* but the bits I bolded above strike me as downright creepy.

• World of Warcraft (http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&articleId=20588)
  
• Apartment referral bonuses (http://evolvedc.com/blog/2008/04/available_apartments_referral.html)
  
• Corporate referral bonuses (http://www.hrworld.com/features/referral-bonus-jackpot-031108/)
  
• Netflix (http://www.netflix.com/Affiliates)
  

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441873Ahem.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441877(where does it say that?)

QuoteSo.. uhm.. which one of you bitches wants to know what day it is?

Quote from: Windjammer;441900I'd be surprised if I'm the only one in this thread who had no idea what you were talking about when you inserted that screenshot.

Quote from: Windjammer;441900"You can read about your current level benefits at //www.wizards.co
programs you are now qualified for."

Last two lines on the image you linked.



Look, you made a screenshot of your WPN profile, and I vaguely remembered having such a profile in the past. Beyond that, I had honestly no idea or recall of what "delinquency rates" were, no had I ever heard of requirements for customer recruitment to advance w.r.t to your WPN rating or whatever it's called. I'd be surprised if I'm the only one in this thread who had no idea what you were talking about when you inserted that screenshot.

As to why you'd think raisining these question is as pedestrian as asking what day it is today, well ... I guess it's all part of that frame of mind.

(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3266/evangdd.jpg)
(Here's the sad bit. Apart from you, Thanlis, and me, I doubt anyone will even recognize what the kid's "holding" here.)

Quote from: Windjammer;441900(Here's the sad bit. Apart from you, Thanlis, and me, I doubt anyone will even recognize what the kid's "holding" here.)

Quote from: Thanlis;441897If you seriously jumped to the assumption that AM is doing it for the MLM, you are a dipshit and you may be looking too hard for explanations that don't involve people enjoying 4e. If you're just trying to spread snarkiness, you are in the right place.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441865It's not a matter of fashion, it's a matter of "is this something we make for people who want to play games or is this like a charity thing for grumpy loners"

Quote from: Windjammer;441907Nope, I certainly didn't jump to that assumption, not before and certainly not now. Also, I didn't focus on monetary rewards but on recruitment requirements. Also, I didn't say "doing it for the MLM", but the Wikipedia quote references how MLM'esque reward patterns invite evangelist behaviour. Again, rewards could be anything - I mean, hey if I could get to GM at a huge convention, and the RPGA covers some of my travelling costs, that would be enough incentive - so again, please don't jump to conclusions yourself either.

Melan: close, but not quite.

AM: Nice one. :D

Quote from: jrients;441909My grumpiness varies wildly, but I've run these games so once again you give the appearance of responding to my point while holding up some strawman you're more comfortable dealing with.  Which is one of your less endearing traits, alongside your use here of the term "we" to refer to a game company you neither work for or own, as far as I know.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441913This is what we are arguing over. A lost era.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441913This is what we are arguing over. A lost era.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441928I'm sure that actual gamers (ie, NOT YOU lol) can respond for themselves if they feel the need.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441928I'm sure that actual gamers (ie, NOT YOU lol) can respond for themselves if they feel the need.

Quote from: StormBringer;441922No, that is what you are arguing over.  Your wild thrashing is a desperate attempt to not be part of the next 'lost era' by showing how cool and popular you are.  The rest of us were discussing how the Legends and Lore entry is disingenuous at best, which somehow triggered your rage again.

Oh, that's right, it wasn't uncritical superlative praise.

Quote from: RandallS;441940I'll respond with the same question/comment I usually have. Why does a huge number of players matter? I can't fit 500+ people in my living room -- and even if I liked them all enough to want to play with them (unlikely), I would not want to run any RPG for all of them. My Microlite75 Wilderlands campaign is down to 8 players as of last weekend -- as one player and his family moved to the Kanas City area. I have four people who want his spot. That's three more than I can fit in the available space.

I'm sure there are loads more 4e players than this in the Waco area (and probably far more people playing 3e). So what? I have more than enough players for my campaign (already a larger regular group than most GMs would want to handle) so what benefit would having these players available have for me? None that I can see.

Quote from: CRKrueger;441949Don't you want to be kewl so kids look up to you and compete in the l33t competitive tournaments?

Quote from: Fiasco;441948I truly fear for Abysmal Maw's sanity when the new editions is announced/comes out this year. Particularly when the RPGA or whatever he is associated with yoinks all support for 4E.

Quote from: danbuter;441814I'm going to laugh when 5e is announced at GenCon and all 4e defenders are left high and dry.

Quote from: Seanchai;441980Why would they be left high and dry? Is "There isn't going to be an edition after 4e" part of party line?

Seanchai

Quote from: misterguignol;441993I don't understand this notion of being left "high and dry" in this context.  

If there is a new edition and I don't like the look of it, I can keep playing with the 4e books I have.  It's not like they will dissolve or that Mearls will come to my house and take them away in the dead of night.

Also, it wouldn't matter much if a new edition meant that 4e was no longer supported.  There are more splatbooks currently available for 4e than I have interest in.  I don't need more options; I already have plenty to play with.

Which is why I don't understand why 3e fans get their knickers in a twist over 4e.  One would assume that they have more than enough stuff to use in their games since 3e was arguably the game most glutted with supplements (both from WotC and 3rd parties).

So how exactly would 5e touch me in the bad place?

Quote from: Aos;441995Wow. This thread sucks.

Quote from: Fiasco;441998However, a large number of people like buying new stuff for their favourite edition of D&D, even if they never get around to using 1/4 of it.  When WOTC brought out 4E I bought the PHB and our group gamed it for about 3 months.  The consensus in the group was that 4E in general, and Keep on Shadowfells in particular, sucked balls.   We went back to playing 3.5.  It does kind of suck, though, walking into a game store and seeing nothing from WOTC that even vaguel raises my interest because its all for an edition I don't like.

Quote from: Cole;442003Aw man, even your troll sucks. This is half retard at best. I expect better from you!

Quote from: Aos;442012People who require published "support" to continue their games are unimaginative failures.

Quote from: Cole;442014My take on this is that I can run whatever game I feel like and don't really need any "support" to do it. My only real concern with the current "support" of any given game is basically the likelihood that I'll be able to find someone else to run a given game so that I can participate in that game as a PC.

Quote from: Benoist;442023Step 1: Introduce people you know to RPGs.
Step 2: Run games for these people. Have fun.
Step 3: Nurture their interest. Some people won't want to play again and it's fine. If you're a decent GM, some people will come back, however. Repeat steps 1-2 as necessary.
Step 4: Plant seeds for other players to run the game as well. Sometimes it'll occur on its own, sometimes not.
Step 5: Enjoy.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441973Would you care to make your prediction on this into a bet? I have standard terms!

Quote from: Windjammer;442040I wonder though, at the same time, how 4E will be remembered, and how people may re-assess it in retrospect with the benefit of 5-10 years hindsight.)

Quote from: Windjammer;442040
Other than that, [BAos [/B]has it right - the real dividing line doesn't run between those playing edition A vs. those who play edition B, but rather between: those who require continued "published support" (either by WotC or small niche publishers, heck self-publishers) to enjoy their games and those who don't.
Which is why I said two months ago that I actually look forward to a time when 4E will be an edition of the past and the only people who'll still stick to and discuss it will be people who cared about it as a game in its own right, and not because it happens to be "the game currently receiving the highest published support". (I wonder though, at the same time, how 4E will be remembered, and how people may re-assess it in retrospect with the benefit of 5-10 years hindsight.)

Quote from: Windjammer;442040Indeed you have. Last time ggroy and you entered a bet the stakes of which were that this forum would permanently lose one of you. If I recall correctly, the point at contention was whether or not Essentials would feature rules for hybrid classes.
I don't want this forum to lose either of you, nor do I have a clear idea of how the point at contention could be decided (and if it ever was), but this rhetoric of 'have you got the balls to enter a bet with me?' ring hollow to me, and I'd rather we don't have that in the first place. (Just my opinion, of course. Continue as you wish.)

Quote from: Fiasco;442045How will 4E be remembered?  I suspect as the most divisive edition in D&Ds long history.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;4420504th edition will be remembered as the writing on the wall that you guys had to go back to being Star Trek fans because D&D had inexplicably turned back into a game again instead of a simulative experience.

Quote from: Fiasco;442045How will 4E be remembered?  I suspect as the most divisive edition in D&Ds long history.

Quote from: Cole;442014My take on this is that I can run whatever game I feel like and don't really need any "support" to do it. My only real concern with the current "support" of any given game is basically the likelihood that I'll be able to find someone else to run a given game so that I can participate in that game as a PC.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;4420504th edition will be remembered as the writing on the wall that you guys had to go back to being Star Trek fans because D&D had inexplicably turned back into a game again instead of a simulative experience.


I hope so!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442047I rather like ggroy, so I didn't hold him to it.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442063Even if you do game with arsonists and assorted miscreants.

Quote from: jrients;441861I reject the implicit analogy to fashion here as much as I reject comparing D&D editions to technology.

Quote from: Benoist;441864Ditto. I think of AD&D and its extended family in terms of "classic game", like you'd talk about other classic games like chess, monopoly or risk (yes, I'm aware of the irony, considering what Hasbro is doing with the latter games (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=19489) right now). Now, I'm not holding my breath, but I would like to share that perception with more people.

Quote from: Spinachcat;441878What game we all loved?

Who is "we all"?

Are Pathfinder fans suddenly going to return to AD&D?

Are AD&D / retroclone fans going to jump aboard a revamped 3e?

If 5e returns to 3e, WotC loses the 4e fans.  And who does it gain?  Paizo already does a wonderful job for 3e fans.   Why would they return en masse to WotC?   I am no fan of 3e or Paizo, but its clear they do a great job.

So is 5e supposed to be some middle ground between AD&D and 3e? We have Castles & Crusades.   And why would AD&D or 3e or 4e fans suddenly leap to a compromise game?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441913Well, I just don't think it's ever going to be "that year" again- no matter which year it is anyone thinks D&D will someday return to.

This is what we are arguing over. A lost era.

Quote from: jgants;442068It's like waiting for movies to stop showing all those big budget blockbuster action movies and start making movies like The Philadelphia Story or Pillow Talk again.  Or for tv to stop all the violence, sexuality, and profanity and return to the cheeriness of Leave It To Beaver or oddball comedies like Petticoat Junction.

It's just not happening.  People's tastes change.

Quote from: Fiasco;441992Which category will you and Abyssal belong to?

Quote from: Seanchai;442072How the hell should I know? First, how the hell am I supposed to know what AM is going to do? Moreover and more importantly, how they hell am I going to know if I like 5e until I at the very least read it?

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442076The collector community always assumes that people think like they do... they have brand loyalty,  they assume that's what everyone has. They don't understand that its a matter of playing... they assume its always about buying books and keeping orderly collections.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442081This is why the pdf controversy is even slightly controversial. This is why in one breath a guy can go from "I don't need to buy anything to play" to demanding the return of the pdf market without even a moment of cognitive dissonance.

Quote from: jgants;442068So I don't see how WotC could ever pick one as "classic".

Quote from: jrients;442086jgants, obviously I'm more of a pereniallist in that I believe cultural artifacts can become 'classics' with value beyond their era and I guess maybe I'm a bit of a marxist when it comes to analyzing the effects that the producers of culture have upon the culture.

Quote from: Cole;442027All very true - you should start a thread on cultivating new GMs, actually. That would be a solid topic for discussion.

I was just thinking in terms of "If I'm new in town, what's going to be on the bulletin board."

Quote from: ggroy;442057If Peter decides to enforce the edict, I suppose I'll be gone for good on another long hiatus away from rpg gaming anyways.  At this point I don't think I'm going to be playing in any rpg games in the near future, and I'm still feeling "burned out" on gaming altogether.  The last few boardgames I played over the last month or so, I did not enjoy the experience at all.  (It was several sessions of Carcassonne, which I really liked in the past).

Quote from: ggroy;442057What I didn't tell you guys at the time, was that I was originally planning to leave rpg games altogether again and taking a (second) long hiatus.  I was burned out on 4E D&D (after two seasons of 4E Encounters) and other rpg games I was playing at the time (ie. a few sessions of Pathfinder which abruptly ended when the DM stopped showing up, several one-shot games of Mongoose Runequest 2, Earthdawn, James Bond, Cyberpunk 2013, etc ...).  I just wasn't enjoying any rpg games anymore.

Quote from: ggroy;442088Which particular Marxist theory of culture do you subscribe to?

Theodor Adorno?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Adorno

Quote from: Benoist;442094Wow wow wow. Like Pete said: you're a cool dude. Nobody should leave because of some bet we threw at each other's face because of some heat in a thread. Come on.

Quote from: Thanlis;442095Go more light-weight? I ran a session of Feng Shui the other day as a break from my usual Greyhawk 4e and man, did it ever rejuvenate me.

Quote from: Aos;442012People who require published "support" to continue their games are unimaginative failures.

Quote from: Aos;442107Godammit this was a quality troll post. I am disappointed in all of you.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441913Well, I just don't think it's ever going to be "that year" again- no matter which year it is anyone thinks D&D will someday return to. I see this all the time "Oh, just wait till 5e.. THEN IT IS I WHO WILL BE THE IMPORTANT ONE AGAIN!" and I'm saying I just don't think that will ever happen.

Nobody remembers the time Shatner was on SNL?  (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x930vt_william-shatner-snl-skit-get-a-life_fun)

This is what we are arguing over. A lost era.

Quote from: jgants;442068I agree completely.  It's silly.  

It's like waiting for movies to stop showing all those big budget blockbuster action movies and start making movies like The Philadelphia Story or Pillow Talk again.  Or for tv to stop all the violence, sexuality, and profanity and return to the cheeriness of Leave It To Beaver or oddball comedies like Petticoat Junction.

It's just not happening.  People's tastes change.

Quote from: Fiasco;441948What can Wizbro do to re-unify the D&D community?

Quote from: Blue Nine;441997There is the issue that a lot of the stuff that makes 4E easy to run is in the ddi aspect. If Wizbro stop supporting this (which I suppose may mean it disappearing) then there will be a lot of hurt imo.

Quote from: Cole;442002I just don't feel that 4e's rules make for a better net experience of playing D&D and would like to look forward to a 5e that does.

Quote from: Aos;442012People who require published "support" to continue their games are unimaginative failures.

Quote from: Fiasco;442045How will 4E be remembered?  I suspect as the most divisive edition in D&Ds long history.

Quote from: Benoist;442094Nobody should leave because of some bet we threw at each other's face because of some heat in a thread.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442123Bull fucking shit.  

If you wave you dick around, honor your bets.

It's called manhood bitches.  Don't make bets if you can't honor them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442123Bull fucking shit.  

If you wave you dick around, honor your bets.

It's called manhood bitches.  Don't make bets if you can't honor them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442121Go publish Metal Earth.


.

Quote from: Aos;442128I don't even know where to begin, really.

Quote from: jrients;442086jgants, obviously I'm more of a pereniallist in that I believe cultural artifacts can become 'classics' with value beyond their era and I guess maybe I'm a bit of a marxist when it comes to analyzing the effects that the producers of culture have upon the culture.  You're apparently more the fashionable man o' the times type. I dunno.

Quote from: jeff37923;442111True, people's tastes do change. But if people's tastes have changed and D&D gaming has indeed moved on and left people behind, then why has Paizo's Pathfinder and various retro clones been such successes in popularity?

Obviously, not everyone who games is following the herd and buying the offered product because it doesn't supply their gaming needs. Gamers are finding the games that work for them and are playing them. Increasingly, it is not Your Favorite Game.

Quote from: jeff37923;442125Thank you, Internet Tough Guy.

Quote from: Cole;442002I just don't feel that 4e's rules make for a better net experience of playing D&D and would like to look forward to a 5e that does.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442121I enjoy both Classic D&D and 4e.   They offer different play experiences and both experiences have been great fun.   I am absolutely looking forward to seeing if 5e is even better.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442136Apparently "bets made about D&D on the internet" have now become the Tasks of Hercules.

Quote from: Cole;442138Hercules just hasn't been the same ever since he died.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442139Mea culpa.

Can we use Apparently "bets made about D&D on the internet" have now become the Tasks of Xena?  

Or should it be Tasks of Buffy?

Certainly we need something with strong geek-fu.

QuoteWhen players can control rules, there's a natural tendency to find ways to break them. In contrast, with the DM serving as impartial referee, you can write a simple rule that's easy to learn and easy to apply. You don't have to worry about strange corner cases because the DM—as part of making the judgment call required to determine cover—can simple cast aside absurd results.

I definitely fall into the second camp as both DM and player. As a player, I'm lazy. I'd rather just ask the DM if there's cover and be done with it. As a DM, I'd rather learn a simple method that doesn't require me to draw lines, mess with the grid, or otherwise break out of the action's flow. Ironically, I like using miniatures, but I much prefer rules as tools rather than rules as arbiters.

Quote from: Aos;442128I don't even know where to begin, really.

Quote from: StormBringer;442151Shoot me what you have and I can start working on the layout.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442076The collector community always assumes that people think like they do... they have brand loyalty,  they assume that's what everyone has. They don't understand that its a matter of playing... they assume its always about buying books and keeping orderly collections.

Quote from: Fiasco;442163There is a side to me that enjoys collecting older edition material (hardcopy not pdf).  ...  There is another side that enjoys buying quality gaming material for the sake of reading it, which has nothing to do with completing a collection.

Quote from: Aos;442154er...wow.
I think there is a shit ton of stuff I need to write/draw first. However, you have ascertained my true fear: layout. Beyond that, I am unsure as to whether or not I should do all the "art" myself or commission some stuff to break it up. Also, I think I need to excise some of the "humor" which tends to bulk up my posts on mechanics.
I will however, definitely take you up on this offer in the (possibly near) future.

Quote from: Aos;442154I will however, definitely take you up on this offer in the (possibly near) future.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442187If Metal Earth gets published, this thread will have been worthwhile.

Go for it Aos!

Quote from: Fiasco;442163We don't have long to wait to find out.

Quote from: Doom;442203It might be a long time. WoTC knew better than to call Essentials a "4.5 Edition", and imagine they'll be deeply reluctant to call their next version of the game 5th edition.

Quote from: misterguignol;442205Notice that it doesn't say 4th Edition anywhere on the covers of the Essentials books.  They might be thinking of moving away from the traditional edition treadmill altogether and toward a digital delivery of new material and an "evergreen" set of books for newcomers.

QuoteNotice that it doesn't say 4th Edition anywhere on the covers of the Essentials books. They might be thinking of moving away from the traditional edition treadmill altogether and toward a digital delivery of new material and an "evergreen" set of books for newcomers.

Quote from: Fiasco;442221Core rule books are by far the most profitable things to publish.  At some point we will have to see them push out a big print run along those lines.  Not naming it an edition might be a bit awkward...

Quote from: Aos;442224I wonder which is more profitable for WoTC at this point, publishing core books or DDI. If DDI is doing well it might be quite some time before we  see a new edition. When you buy a book you want something meaty. The topic covered has to be broad enough to fill a book and yet focused enough to hold it togheter. DDI articles don't necessarily have to meet these criteria, which, if you think about it, expands the potential amount of material that could be released for 4e (i.e. as long as you put something up every month you're good- and it doesn't have to be one something, it can be a assortment of smaller pieces. I don't currently play 4e (although my kids are pestering me and I will likely give in) and I have no intention of using DDI (unless the final VTT is cheap and solid) but I don't think WoTC is in as much hot water as some of us might like to think. Like all things internet, the DDI represents a new way of doing things, and how it will pan out in the long run is anyone's guess.

Quote from: Blue Nine;442223I think digital delivery sounds too much like a prostate exam for my liking.

-----

Quote from: Fiasco;442227I don't think WOTC is in hot water at all.  Certainly not while MTG is going strong.   D&D is barely a blip on their overall revenue streams.

You do raise an excellent point with their DDI.  It is a truly innovative idea and may well be profitable enough to make them move away from print publications altogether.  Even if the revenue is much lower than for print publication, so too are the risks and overheads.

Having said all that, cancelling a string of print publications for this year suggests something is afoot.

Quote from: Fiasco;442236Hence I think a big new set of printed core rules could well be on the cards within 2 years.  Its just the nature of the industry. Everybody does it.  If nothing else, it keeps you in print.

QuoteGiven that electronic content is so much cheaper to produce and customise, could we see WOTC try to reconnect with disenfranchsed gamers by putting out support material or conversions to earlier editions?  I guess the hard part would be getting them to sign up to the DDI.

QuoteOff topic.  But have there been any good 4E modules published?

Quote from: Aos;442224I wonder which is more profitable for WoTC at this point, publishing core books or DDI.

Quote from: Aos;442234I imagine they will maintain a physical retail presence for some time, but it may be with fewer and fewer products over all.

QuoteThe cost/profit ratio on DDI must be pretty nice. No printers, no shipping, no distributors, no retail cuts.

Quote from: Blue Nine;442243I think you're leaving out the expense of hiring nerds to design and build the site, make it work on a seemingly infinite number of platforms, and somehow stop it from being hacked and having your client's personal details getting sold to the mafia.

Quote from: Blue Nine;442243I'm not sure the revenue is really that amazing (yet).

Quote from: Blue Nine;442243I still think the best bet for WOTC is to simply make a game that more people like.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442241The cost/profit ratio on DDI must be pretty nice.   No printers, no shipping, no distributors, no retail cuts.  

QuoteWotC has those expenses with or without DDI. That's the basics for having a corporate website. The credit card pay system is probably a 3rd party. No reason to keep that in-house.

QuoteI fully agree...but that beast won't be anything that pleases nostalgia gamers.

Quote from: Blue Nine;442259Of course, you may be right, I guess we'll all know some day.

Quote

Quote from: Spinachcat;442251WotC has those expenses with or without DDI.   That's the basics for having a corporate website.  The credit card pay system is probably a 3rd party.   No reason to keep that in-house.

The only reason to keep that in-house would be because you aren't a fucking moron that sends private information all over the fucking web.

QuotePaizo and White Wolf has all those same expenses, but no subscription service as yet.  I won't be surprised to see Paizo launch one in the near future.

Instead of comparing apples to oranges, why don't you compare apples to something you are familiar with, like your own asshole?

QuoteI doubt the revenue will become amazing until they have a 24/7 online gametable with an online eRPGA in full effect.

The only possible reason to do something at all is because it will generate unicorn tears that will make you shit gold directly into the bank, right?  No need to start out slowly like those fucking losers over at Paizo or anything.

QuoteI fully agree...but that beast won't be anything that pleases nostalgia gamers.

Your opinion means exactly jack shit, because you have no idea regarding any of the topics here.

Quote from: Imperator;442267Pretending that WotC has divided such a balkanized hobby as gaming is just preposterous. WotC didn't create any divisions, gamers did. Gamers label themselves according to their preferences. WotC just said, "Here you have a new and improved version of this game. It is better than the previous version, so you should buy it.

Quote from: StormBringer;442264Instead of comparing apples to oranges, why don't you compare apples to something you are familiar with, like your own asshole?

Quote from: Blue Nine;442259I play 4e, and like it, but really you would have to be very optimistic to believe that it's been an unparalleled success story.

Quote from: Blue Nine;442259I think nostalgia gamers, and more specifically the lack of money coming from thse guys, is definitely an issue for WOTC.

Quote from: Imperator;442267And above all, what the fuck is that obsession with D&D? Most people don't play D&D, or they don't play the current version of D&D, and the hobby goes strong.

Quote from: Fiasco;442236Its a delicate balance.  No pysical presence would be disastrous in the long run.

Quote from: Imperator;442267And above all, what the fuck is that obsession with D&D? Most people don't play D&D, or they don't play the current version of D&D, and the hobby goes strong. People play other things, and we all do super-fine. If tomorrow WotC releases a 5E and it goes down in flames and the D&D brand goes to fucking hell no one will care. Other products will flood to cover the hole, and life will go on. That is what happens in every industry whe a leading company breaks: others take their place, and life goes on.

For fuck's sake, I hope that at least Aos decides to publish his stuff and something good comes from this train wreck of a thread.

Quote from: Windjammer;442274In that vein, Essentials gives the WotC team "breathing space" to create something new, at leisure. I'm curious though whether 'Essentials as evergreens' still is their current plan, or if they've abandoned that in favour of something else up their sleeves.

QuoteThat is just a sampling of the kind of conversations we have around here. Man up and grab a handful of pain to shove down someone's gullet.

QuoteJust kidding, welcome to theRPGsite, Blue Nine!

Quote from: ggroy;442278If WotC are indeed making some D&D titles to be evergreen for a very long time, one possible candidate would be the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium book.

In principle they can completely redo all of the classes, on top of a generic 4E Essentials Rules Compendium foundation.

Quote from: Windjammer;442280In my opinion, the RC was mostly a product for pre-Essentials players who wanted an updated version of the core rules.

Quote from: Windjammer;442280There were lots of complaints about the material overlap between these products (Heroes of books, DM kit book, RC), but once you view the situation the way I suggest here, the overlaps make good sense.

Quote from: GameDaddy;442268And you forgot to mention the part where WOTC also said, you don't get to have your old inferior version anymore, even if it's reliable, and even if you happen to like it. Too bad so sad... buy the new version, or get you nothing at all... whinerz...

Quote from: Spinachcat;442271In the USA, D&D (whatever edition) dominates the hobby for better or worse.  I understand that in Europe, D&D is still the top dog, but not by same wide margins.  

Check out the GenCon or Origins RPG schedule.

Quote from: Fiasco;442277You are not a fan of D&D, we get it.

QuoteSadly for you, and despite your grandiose assertions, lots and lots of people DO care about D&D.  Enough to fuel many of these epic threads.  In fact more peopel care about D&D than all of your favourite RPGs put together.  

QuoteHell, you can't even help yourself posting in these threads.  Irony.

Quote from: Imperator;442267One of the things that astounds me the most is the feeling of, I don't know, maybe 'entitlement,' that pervades many posts around these topics. Seriously, are people thinking that a company must "apologize" to people for getting out a product or a marketing campaign that they don't like? Have you lost your shit?

Quote from: Christ Tulach, Feb 22We’re also adding new play options for organizers, so they can report play going on in their store or in another public venue. This will be particularly valuable to WPN organizers, because their store can now receive credit for all sorts of D&D play going on there. Just like the casual play options that exist for Magic: the Gathering, we’re establishing several new categories of D&D play that are very easy to report. They are broken up into the following options: D&D 4th Edition RPG, D&D older edition RPG, D&D board games, and D&D Gamma World.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442271The indicators seem to point to 4e = 3.5 in sales, but less than 3e.  Just as 3e sales were less than 1e or 2e.  However, 3e is pre-WoW, pre-Internet boom and pre-modern consoles boom so its doubtful that 1e or 3e sales can be achieved again.  

Quote from: RandallS;442288They can't direct the hobby. They need to put out products that the hobbyists want. Unlike with a larger and more general market, trying to lead the hobby where you want it to go with your products generally fails. Companies that try it in hobbies fail far, far more often then they succeed.

Quote from: Imperator;442291I don't see WotC trying to direct any other thing that their own product. They cannot direct the hobby as there is a lot more to it than D&D and D&D fantasy. Creating a product and pushing it is not directing the hobby, and I cannot see how.

Quote from: Aos;442301Truthfully, I am more or less in agreement with Ramón.

QuoteHowever, I was hit with a sanctimony ray and suffered a head injury during the Carcosa Riots of '08.

Quote from: Imperator;442303Should I be worried?

Quote from: Imperator;442267These threads are amazing. Seriously.

One of the things that astounds me the most is the feeling of, I don't know, maybe 'entitlement,' that pervades many posts around these topics. Seriously, are people thinking that a company must "apologize" to people for getting out a product or a marketing campaign that they don't like? Have you lost your shit?

Only in geekdom can one find these kind of statements, sais with what I assume is a straight face, by otherwise smart adults with a normal life. Psychologically is fascinating.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442271The indicators seem to point to 4e = 3.5 in sales, but less than 3e.  Just as 3e sales were less than 1e or 2e.  However, 3e is pre-WoW, pre-Internet boom and pre-modern consoles boom so its doubtful that 1e or 3e sales can be achieved again.  

I wonder if 4e sales will be achieved by 5e, regardless of possible quality.

Quote from: Benoist;442310But I also think there's something much more fundamental to RPGs at work here. I think that one particular trait of RPG gaming is that it empowers its users. You're not a passive consumer of the company's goods. You're an individual with imagination using an unfinished product (the game book) to create the finished product (that actual game as it happens at the table). And this is probably here the root of these kinds of perceptions. That we, as gamers, come to own the games we run, because that's in practice what we do: we run our games, not the company's, and use its materials in active ways.

Quote from: estar;442314It similar to the griping that goes on about development environments and programming languages. RPGs and programming language are tools used to create a final "product". Nothing raise the ire of a craftsman like a company fucking up his tools.

I experienced both as my day job is a developer of metal cutting software.

Quote from: Imperator;442287No, you don't and also don't have a fuing clue. Though my faourite RPG is AH RuneQuest, I started with the Red Box 25 years ago, and I have run and played every edition of D&D, and enjoyed it. These days I am playing a PbP D&D game here, run by Benoist, which I'm hugely enjoying. So no, I may not e the biggest fan of D&D on God's green earth, but I like the game quite a lot. Also, that does not invalidate a single point of mine, anyway.


Which is fascinating, in a very sick way, because these threads are full of irrational stupidity, silly demands, and absurd entitlement. The psychology behind all that fascinates me.


I don't post in these threads bcause I give a flyin' turd about WotC, because I don't. Either I like their stuff and play it, or I don't and then don't cry like a whiny bitch about it. I post in these threads because the people discussing this is fascinating in their irrational behaviour, and I also post here because I can express my goddamned opinion like anyone else. You may agree or disagree with it, but you still have to make a valid counterpoint to any thing I said.

And despite D&D dominating the market, which it definitely does, I have yet to be persuaded that a company needs to apologize to non-fans because they didn't like its products. That's a new record for this site, hard to believe as it is.

Quote from: Imperator;442287So fucking what?

That is like asking Mongoose to reprint the AH RQ because that's the version I happen to like the most. Or like asking Nokia to keep on the maret the old model of cellphone you like the most. No one is going to ask them to do that, or accuse them to divide the users.

Quote from: Peregrin;442389Entertainment is different from a utility.

Quote from: GameDaddy;442392Entertainers that fail to provide that, end up in other professions... usually sooner rather than later, judging by the results on American Idol...

Quote from: RandallS;442288They can't direct the hobby. They need to put out products that the hobbyists want.

Quote from: Benoist;442310I think we could go on ad nauseam about such things as the difference in the shared experience of gaming there is between Europe and the US on gaming point of view, with the influence of D&D being vastly different between the two.

Quote from: StormBringer;442312The US has disproportionately low broadband access, so it WotC wants to include that as a major aspect of their marketing and game, is that hurting them more than helping at this point?

Quote from: Aos;442304Perhaps, after all, I have been told by many of your countrymen that I am far more like a Spaniard than an American.

Quote from: Benoist;442310That we, as gamers, come to own the games we run, because that's in practice what we do: we run our games, not the company's, and use its materials in active ways.

QuoteWhen you consider the role D&D is taking in the gaming consciousness, the way the game made its way to the core of what these people feel about their entertainment, their creative output, their psychological comfort zone away from the world that considers them as "nerds" and "geeks," that is what you get: people who deeply identify with their personal craft, and come to consider that they must have a say in how the game evolves.

I think that's what we're seeing in action here.

Quote from: estar;442314It similar to the griping that goes on about development environments and programming languages. RPGs and programming language are tools used to create a final "product". Nothing raise the ire of a craftsman like a company fucking up his tools.

I experienced both as my day job is a developer of metal cutting software.

Quote from: Fiasco;442327Most of the people in this thread are not whining or demanding an apology from WOTC.   Most of us are speculating on the future direction of WOTC and D&D with some discussion of where 4E sits in the history of D&D editions.

QuoteYou are of course welcome to express your opinions, its just a pity that they don't seem to amount to much more than thread crapping in this discussion. Honestly, re-read the tone of your first post in this thread.  What a detestable holier than thou attitude permeates througout.

Quote from: GameDaddy;442386Do you still drive on, or use roads that the Romans built?

QuoteThere is no need to discard or throw away something that is well made. There is no valid reason to discontinue manufacturing it, especially as long as  people continue to buy it. They may have the right to discontinue production, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea.  

QuoteSound familiar?

Quote from: Spinachcat;442402Who is this monolithic group called "the hobbyists"?

Quote from: Spinachcat;4424024e fans want more 4e.
3e fans want more 3e.
1e/2e fans want more 1e/2e.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442402Even blessed Paizo doesn't dual stat for people who only play 1e/2e/3e.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442402WotC can only serve one group: People who want to play the current version of Dungeons & Dragons.  Nobody else.

Quote from: jgants;442494* Spend time and resources to make your current products fully compatible with older products that are no longer a good fit for the current market, because a small part of a graying market segment wants it.

Quote from: jgants;442494I remain baffled that anyone is shocked that a for-profit company performs business activities that they believe will maximize their profits.

Here are some things that pretty much guarentee you won't be maximizing your profits:

* Be inefficient by supporting the sale of products that compete with your other products, which has the added benefit of dilluting your brand.

* Spend time and resources to make your current products fully compatible with older products that are no longer a good fit for the current market, because a small part of a graying market segment wants it.

* Listening to a shrinking, graying market segment; particularly one that hasn't actually purchased your products in decades.

* Not focusing on trying to appeal to the younger generations and not catering to their product preferences.

Quote from: jgants;442494I remain baffled that anyone is shocked that a for-profit company performs business activities that they believe will maximize their profits.

Here are some things that pretty much guarentee you won't be maximizing your profits:

* Be inefficient by supporting the sale of products that compete with your other products, which has the added benefit of dilluting your brand.

* Spend time and resources to make your current products fully compatible with older products that are no longer a good fit for the current market, because a small part of a graying market segment wants it.

* Listening to a shrinking, graying market segment; particularly one that hasn't actually purchased your products in decades.

* Not focusing on trying to appeal to the younger generations and not catering to their product preferences.

Quote from: jrients;442514On the other hand I don't see any reason to put up with them blowing smoke up my ass about "unity" or "ze game remains ze same" while it happens.

Quote from: Aos;442517Why even pay any attention to them, though? I actually own, and have made some use of some 4e stuff, and I couldn't give the fart of an emasculated hummingbird about anything Mike Mearls and co have to say. I will point out, that I felt exactly the same way about Gygax et al back in the 80's (and still do today, really).


@Testsubo, you are by your own admission unique; how can any one build a business strategy based on one persons habits? Furthermore, I got the 3.0 books as b-day present, didn't like it, and never bought a single product until the release of 4e.

Quote from: Aos;442520Why would I look at game company sales figures? Why would anyone? What the fuck?

Quote from: Tetsubo;442521You stated that I was a unique case. The sales figures for Pathfinder are running neck and neck with 4E. Sort of showing I am not a unique case. Hence my reply that I am not alone. I pay attention to the gaming industry news.

Quote from: Tetsubo;442515I have spent more money on gaming books than anyone else I have ever met. More money than a dozen fellow gamers I know. .

Quote from: Aos;442522Er no, I did not state that you were a unique case- you did, right here:




Again with the- what the fuck? Are you even reading your own posts?

Quote from: Tetsubo;442523I also stated that I have migrated to Pathfinder. And as many people have joined me to challenge WotC in sales figures. Those are dollars that WotC *could* have kept. But they decided to throw those folk away as customers. It didn't seem like a good decision to me. Still doesn't.

Quote from: Aos;442517I couldn't give the fart of an emasculated hummingbird.

Quote from: two_fishes;442525Hindsight is always 20/20, and I'm sure the powers that be at WotC never predicted that a 3.5 redux would be as successful as it has been.

Quote from: two_fishes;442525I don't imagine it's an entirely easy decision for those in the decision making chair. Do they continue along the lines of a flagging product (i.e. 3.5) with a redux (a la Pathfinder), thus keeping most of the customer base happy, but alienating those who desire more dramatic changes, and failing to attract a significant new market? Or do they risk alienating a portion of the current customer with a greater break, and attempt to win more new buyers, especially younger buyers? The decision to go with the latter is hardly unsound, and can be seen as a good long-term strategy. It may not have gone as well as they have liked, but it was a legitimate risk for them to take.

Quote from: Aos;442524You seem to take it very personally, though. I think I've seen you post "fired me as a customer" or a variation thereof at least a dozen times in threads like these.  It's been three years since the release of 4e. Three years (long enough to earn a masters degree, long enough to take a child from birth to toilet training, long enough to make 2 Iron Man movies- a long time). Not to mention, by your own admission, you still have access to product for your system of choice.  I would think the time to let it go has long since passed.

Quote from: Aos;442534The demise of Blockbuster is fascinating. A google search will bring up any number of articles on it.

Quote from: jgants;442539Montgomery Ward, Circuit City, AOL, Atari, GM, Schwinn, Polaroid...  not changing with the times is a pretty common theme (granted, not there are plenty of other ways to go out of business).

Quote from: Daedalus;442533The fact that 4e exists doesn't make early versions of D&D unusable.

Quote from: Spinachcat;442543Liar!

In April 2009, I accidently left my 4e PHB on top of my 1e DMG and went to sleep.  That night I heard Gary crying out in pain.  Oh the screams!  By the time I rescued the 1e book, the psionics section almost made sense.

Quote from: Aos;442534The demise of Blockbuster is fascinating. A google search will bring up any number of articles on it.

QuoteOver-investment in music - while this was a big plus for Borders in the early to mid 90's, it was a disaster in the long run. This is why the stores were too big once the music business cratered - stores were sized and modeled to provide a large music CD business which largely disappeared. In addition, infrastructure was sized to support this business, including a dedicated warehouse distribution facility. This last part has been addressed over time, but soaked up money, time, and energy. Music was also part of what made Borders a destination for many customers, so when music sales tanked, other product categories' sales suffered as well.

Quote from: Windjammer;442564Several reasons possible. The most important one, probably: it's micro-transactions that sustaints e-business.

Quote from: Tetsubo;442521The sales figures for Pathfinder are running neck and neck with 4E.

Quote from: jgants;442539Most stories about the demise of formerly big companies end up being pretty interesting.  At least, I find them interesting.

Montgomery Ward, Circuit City, AOL, Atari, GM, Schwinn, Polaroid...  

Quote from: Spinachcat;442402

Quote from: Benoist;442310I think we could go on ad nauseam about such things as the difference in the shared experience of gaming there is between Europe and the US on gaming point of view, with the influence of D&D being vastly different between the two.

Please start a thread about this!

Quote from: Peregrin;441282Sure, we're all playing D&D, but the D&D we may be playing could be significantly different from the one our neighbor is playing, both mechanically and philosophically.

Quote from: Aos;442520Why would I look at game company sales figures? Why would anyone? What the fuck?

Quote from: Aos;442524You seem to take it very personally, though. I think I've seen you post "fired me as a customer" or a variation thereof at least a dozen times in threads like these.  It's been three years since the release of 4e. Three years (long enough to earn a masters degree, long enough to take a child from birth to toilet training, long enough to make 2 Iron Man movies- a long time). Not to mention, by your own admission, you still have access to product for your system of choice.  I would think the time to let it go has long since passed.

Quote from: Aos;442517Why even pay any attention to them, though?

Quote from: jrients;442781I stopped following WotC's moves months ago.  Mearls' apparent nod toward previous editions bubbled up through the old school blogs and that was the only reason I was aware of it.  Probably I wouldn't even have even read this thread but I was overcome by a morbid urge to see if AM was still being a douche.  In retrospect I should have ignored the little red due on my left shoulder, so I'll make this my last post in the thread.  You 4e boosters can all go back to sucking Wizard's cock and I'll go back to masturbating furiously over my 1st edition DMG. ;)

Quote from: Daedalus;442533I agree on this.  I see people complaining that 4e doesn't do it for them and taking it very personally which I just don't understand.

4e doesn't work for you?  DONT PLAY IT!

The fact that 4e exists doesn't make early versions of D&D unusable.  Case in point, my group is playing a D&D 3.5 game and having a good time.  We have the books we need and anything else we need we make it up as we go.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;442666Yes please.

Quote from: David Johansen;442668The 1e Psionics were in the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK NOOB!

Quote from: jrients;442781I stopped following WotC's moves months ago.  Mearls' apparent nod toward previous editions bubbled up through the old school blogs and that was the only reason I was aware of it.  Probably I wouldn't even have even read this thread but I was overcome by a morbid urge to see if AM was still being a douche.  In retrospect I should have ignored the little red due on my left shoulder, so I'll make this my last post in the thread.  You 4e boosters can all go back to sucking Wizard's cock and I'll go back to masturbating furiously over my 1st edition DMG. ;)

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;441314For anyone that says "I can't run the game I like in 4e" - I can't imagine the boring non-adventure anti-game clusterfuck of a miserable kinda-like D&D experience that you prefer. I admit that I simply choose to assume that your'e just uncomfortable with the new or just attached to the old, and there's nothing wrong with either of those. In either case, it doesn't mean anything other than a non-opinion.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;442829I'm starting up a 1E game next week and looking forward to prep without needing software. Im through running TTRPGs that I wouldn't want to prep without computer assistance. That includes 3E AND 4E. WOTC can take its overblown stat blocks, wrap them inside their rules for everything and shove them up their collective ass.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;442838Why did no one tell me AM had a stroke?  I would've sent a card. :(

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;442841This has been my mindset for a while. Spreadsheet and Character Creator/Builder/Program = Dirty Words to me.

Quote from: One Horse Town;442822and with that golden oldie from AM - is there any point in this clusterfuck continuing?

Quote from: Spinachcat;441650You bitching about grappling in 3e?  Try grappling in AD&D 1e using the RAW.  

Even the most ardent Gygax worshippers on Dragonsfoot won't touch that one.

Quote from: misterguignol;442855Hmm...I play 4e but never use the programs.  I still use notebook paper to make characters and plan encounters just like I did back in high school when then new edition was 2e.

It's not like 4e has difficult math.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;442819it's disheartening to see the great Jeff Rients turn into such a gamer-hater.

Quote from: ImperatorThese threads are amazing. Seriously.

One of the things that astounds me the most is the feeling of, I don't know, maybe 'entitlement,' that pervades many posts around these topics. Seriously, are people thinking that a company must "apologize" to people for getting out a product or a marketing campaign that they don't like? Have you lost your shit?

Quote from: Phillip;442961It's my money. WotC has no, I don't know, maybe 'entitlement' to it. Seriously, are you thinking I have to like whatever they do? Have you lost your shit?

In a market driven economy, the golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. In this case, I'm the one with the gold.

If I wanted Mike Mearls to cut me a paycheck, then he would be in a position to demand an apology, or a change in what I was producing.

As things stand, it is Mr. Mearls who is depending on us to pay for his paycheck.

I once visited, with a sum of money in hand, an investment firm that has since closed. In the parking lot was a sign indicating "Client Parking". It was not for the employees. I decided to go instead for a firm that understood who was the client and who was the patron.

Quote from: SpinachcatWotC can only serve one group: People who want to play the current version of Dungeons & Dragons. Nobody else.

Quote from: Phillip;442969Better Wizards should be totally a one-trick pony, stick to Magic The Gathering, and let a firm that's not so determined not to sell product have the Dungeons & Dragons brand.

Quote from: jgantsBut there is a huge difference between being a customer and being a patron.

QuoteYou aren't entitled to get anything from them any more than they are entitled to your money. A product is simply an offer of a good in exchange for money, nothing more.

Quote from: Phillip;442969Then it's a pretty pathetic excuse for a game company. I hear Don Kaye and Gary Gygax rolling over in their graves. Better Wizards should be totally a one-trick pony, stick to Magic The Gathering, and let a firm that's not so determined not to sell product have the Dungeons & Dragons brand.

Quote from: Phillip;442972That is just as I have said. If the good I want is an apology, then someone can have it on offer or not. He has no entitlement to turn a profit and stay in business if he does not satisfy demand.

Quote from: two_fishesWotC is trying to appeal to new customers, more customers, revitalize an old product and keep it alive.

Quote from: two_fishes;442993I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You've gone and nerdraged yourself into a fit of incomprehensibility.

Quote from: jeff37923;442994No, Phillip is making sense to me.

Quote from: jgantsOne minute, he says he wants to be treated as a patron and not a client. In another, he says the two are effectively the same thing.

QuoteThen he rambles on about wanting to buy an apology from WotC. Or something.

QuoteThe next minute, he claims...

QuoteAnd then there's his theory...

Quote from: Phillip;442992NthEpointX

Quote from: Aos;442856If you cut off the hydra's head, two will grow in its place.

Quote from: jgants;442999He also seems to suffer from delusions that all the kids of today really want is to time travel back to 1979.

Quote from: Phillip;443005Hip hip!

Quote from: David Johansen;443012Is it so horribly wrong that I really want to play that?

Quote from: Phillip;443018WotC has created the very problem that TSR worked to avoid back when "D&D" was in danger of becoming a nebulous generic term for anybody's house rules for some sort of fantasy game, without any common frame of reference.

"Hey, wanna play some D&D?"
"Which 'edition'?"

Quote from: Benoist;441249Where Mike Mearls talks about the past in order to find his future.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443015Who spiked Philip's Ensure?

Quote from: misterguignol;443022Except most people (outside of Internet nerdragers) aren't that hung up about different editions at all.

As far as my gaming friends go, whatever edition they want to play on a given Sunday is fine by me.  They're fun people, I want to game with them; why would I let this edition war bullshit get in the way of that?

Quote from: Spinachcat;443015Clusterfuck hydra's grow two assholes instead of new head.  

Quote from: David Johansen;443025Great I'll be bringing my four hundred and seventy third level Shujenika half Winged Folk half Fremlin with his spell list drawn from the Encyclopedia Magica and expect to play him as written in your next game session.

Because nobody cares about all this edition war crap right?

Quote from: David Johansen;443025Great I'll be bringing my four hundred and seventy third level Shujenika half Winged Folk half Fremlin with his spell list drawn from the Encyclopedia Magica and expect to play him as written in your next game session.

Because nobody cares about all this edition war crap right?

Quote from: nezach;443023Speaking of the past, is this the same Mike Mearls who wrote this review of Keep on the Borderland?

 http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html)

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;443042This group is unusual, because it's the first case I've seen where a completely new edition of D&D wasn't absolutely more popular than an older edition. This is unprecedented, and tells me that WoTC is doing something seriously wrong.

Quote from: misterguignol;443043That's actually incorrect.  Neither 2e nor 3e were as popular as D&D was in the 80s.

Quote from: Phillip;442961It's my money. WotC has no, I don't know, maybe 'entitlement' to it. Seriously, are you thinking I have to like whatever they do? Have you lost your shit?

QuoteIn a market driven economy, the golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. In this case, I'm the one with the gold.

Quote from: Phillip;442972No, there is not, in the context of business. The usage is plain common English.

QuoteThat is just as I have said. If the good I want is an apology, then someone can have it on offer or not. He has no entitlement to turn a profit and stay in business if he does not satisfy demand.

Quote from: Phillip;442981They're doing the same thing they've been doing from the start, which is thoroughly predicated on having fewer and fewer and more and more insular customers. They appear to have been very successful at achieving that result.

QuoteIf someone chooses to sell lead as silver, and uses the legal power to prevent others from selling silver as silver, I do not take that for an indication that people have stopped wanting silver. I take it for a debasement of silver. If a generation comes up knowing only lead as silver, and decides that it does not like silver, then that is actually no opinion at all about what you and I know silver to be.

Quote from: jeff37923;442994A lot of us who do not like 4E, do not like it as a product and do not feel that we should support a company with our money that is not providing a product we wish to purchase. It is that simple.

You, two-fishes, are nerdraging this into something it isn't. So, go fuck yourself already.

Quote from: Phillip;442997Supposedly, now, they are incapable of that.

QuoteEven with it, they are unable to attract a flow of new customers and must rely instead on milking the ever dwindling supply of old ones, those still ready to buy yet another set of books with recycled titles in order to "keep current".

Quote from: Phillip;443018No! What's wrong is that the once-mighty "Dungeons & Dragons" brand is now of such negligible relevance.

Quote from: Phillip;443036We will see how often, a few years hence, the answer to "Which edition?" will be "Pathfinder" or something else not officially called D&D.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;443042The real problem with most of this group is that it's waaay too decentralized and disorganized. Not just that, but the grognardism in this group is utterly clueless in understanding how to improve its success in the marketplace, and wants to pretend that it's still 1979, ignoring all modern standards of graphic design, production values, and more. Of course, that fappery just leaves the pre-d20 D&D group to meander in a realm of hopeless obscurity... :rolleyes: This problem is fixable, but the process of doing so would be a chronic pain the ass. :pundit:

Quote(B.) 3.x: Despite what some would have us believe, 3.x is currently the largest segment of the Dungeons & Dragons audience. There remains a huge group of fans of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and a wealth of d20 and OGL games.

QuoteTake note that Pathfinder alone is challenging 4e in the marketplace, and might even be outselling it. So yeah, 3.x wins by a huge margin.

QuoteThis group is unusual, because it's the first case I've seen where a completely new edition of D&D wasn't absolutely more popular than an older edition. This is unprecedented, and tells me that WoTC is doing something seriously wrong. Can they fix it? Yes, but they probably won't do so any time soon... :idunno:

Make no mistake about it. 4e is very popular, but it's the number two game, at best. Not number one. There are lots of reasons for this, but it would take too long to break it down step-by-bloody-step in a casual post. Suffice it to say, WoTC is unintentionally  sabotaging its prior dominance in both the hobby and the industry, and it'll have to work extra-hard to climb out of the hole that it's dug itself into...

Quote from: Imperator;443056You are just a potential customer, between tons of other customers who wil buy their shit, subscribe to the DDI and whatever, because they like the stuff that WotC sells. You are a lost costumer, so you can take your gold and shove it.[...]
But they're satisfying another demands, of another people. God, how narcissistic of yours to whine like a bitch because your demands are not satisfied.
[...]They're selling a new version of an RPG. You may like it or not. Period. Your opinion is not a universal indication of anything, because for every person that thinks that "D&D is about...." there will be at least another person who thinks that D&D is about something else. You don't get to define what i D&D for everyone, Narcissus, and that is why paying attention to the likes of you would be a disastrous business decision.[...]

Quote from: Monte Cook in 2007Will 4th Edition continue to be an open game? This is a complex question.....however, the better question is, could they? ... Arguably, to make the game airtight-closed, Wizards would have to change it so radically that it wouldn't even be D&D anymore.

Quote from: Phillip;443018No! What's wrong is that the once-mighty "Dungeons & Dragons" brand is now of such negligible relevance.

Never mind the importance placed even on a fractional version number, which is more the sort of thing that "edition" traditionally means elsewhere than WotC. Pick up the wrong Nth version, and you've got a Players Handbook for a very different game.

WotC has created the very problem that TSR worked to avoid back when "D&D" was in danger of becoming a nebulous generic term for anybody's house rules for some sort of fantasy game, without any common frame of reference.

"Hey, wanna play some D&D?"
"Which 'edition'?"

The "retro clones" have just the opposite problem. For the most part, they really are just different editions, just like the old TSR releases they mostly emulate. Behind the diversity of names, there's a commonality among games. They don't (yet?) have an over-arching brand identity, except for the "old D&D" one that they can't openly advertise.

Quote from: PhillipNo! What's wrong is that the once-mighty "Dungeons & Dragons" brand is now of such negligible relevance.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambThe real problem with most of this group is that it's waaay too decentralized and disorganized. Not just that, but the grognardism in this group is utterly clueless in understanding how to improve its success in the marketplace, and wants to pretend that it's still 1979, ignoring all modern standards of graphic design, production values, and more. Of course, that fappery just leaves the pre-d20 D&D group to meander in a realm of hopeless obscurity... This problem is fixable, but the process of doing so would be a chronic pain the ass.

Quote from: ImperatorWell put.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb(B.) 3.x: Despite what some would have us believe, 3.x is currently the largest segment of the Dungeons & Dragons audience. There remains a huge group of fans of 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and a wealth of d20 and OGL games.

Quote from: ImperatorMaybe you are right, but again, I'd need to see actual data.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambTake note that Pathfinder alone is challenging 4e in the marketplace, and might even be outselling it. So yeah, 3.x wins by a huge margin.

Quote from: ImperatorI have a problem with this statement.

RPGs are a hobby in which "buying" doesn't necessarily mean "playing" and viceversa. We would need to know how many of these books are actually used in play, for how many people, and so on, before stating boldly "people prefers D&D before Pathfinder" or whatever.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambThis group is unusual, because it's the first case I've seen where a completely new edition of D&D wasn't absolutely more popular than an older edition. This is unprecedented, and tells me that WoTC is doing something seriously wrong. Can they fix it? Yes, but they probably won't do so any time soon...

Make no mistake about it. 4e is very popular, but it's the number two game, at best. Not number one. There are lots of reasons for this, but it would take too long to break it down step-by-bloody-step in a casual post. Suffice it to say, WoTC is unintentionally sabotaging its prior dominance in both the hobby and the industry, and it'll have to work extra-hard to climb out of the hole that it's dug itself into...

Quote from: ImperatorAgain, I miss data.

Quote from: Windjammer;443074Same applies to your comment 'I learnt to only cater to a particular segment of my clients'. Good luck to you if that works with you. I'm highly skeptical WotC is happy to cater to only a segment of their potential customerbase, and is happy to lose their dollars by catering to a comparatively narrow vision of D&D.

Quote from: Imperator;443056No, because you are not just retiring your support and not buying their stuff. And no one is saying that you should, by the way. If I'm not mistaken, it was you who asked for an apology, which is hilarious.

Quote from: jeff37923;441444WotC could apologize for the behavior of their more vocal and obnoxiously abrasive fans who also represent the RPGA. That would go a long way in my book to repairing the rift they deliberately created for themselves.

Quote from: Phillip;443036In a market driven economy, the golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. In this case, I'm the one with the gold.

Quote from: Imperator;443056No, you are not. You are just a potential customer, between tons of other customers who wil buy their shit, subscribe to the DDI and whatever, because they like the stuff that WotC sells.

Quote from: Seanchai;443089It's an interesting idea. If I own a storefront and someone walks into my store, they would exert a certain power or influence over me. If someone squatted in front of my store and crapped on the sidewalk because they're ideologically opposed to my business, I don't care if they have a million dollars in their pocket, they exert no influence over me.

Seanchai

Quote from: nezach;443023Speaking of the past, is this the same Mike Mearls who wrote this review of Keep on the Borderland?

 http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html)

Quote from: Windjammer;443074Imperator, there's an element in your response to Philip in which you cast him as an isolated voice, to be contrasted with the many customers who are satisfied with current WotC product. I don't think that's fair. Either you can't generalize both sides of the arguments - those satisfied with the argument, those not satisied - or you can.
The whole editorial by Mearls communicates that the segment of unsatisfied customers is too large to be neglected. While Philip is not that segment's best spokesman, he's certainly part of it. No need to marginalize his position in the debate.

QuoteGood luck to you if that works with you. I'm highly skeptical WotC is happy to cater to only a segment of their potential customerbase, and is happy to lose their dollars by catering to a comparatively narrow vision of D&D. Not saying anything about the quality of that vision, but it's certainly more defined and delimited than that of previous editions.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;443077There would be no way of objectively knowing the answer to that. I bought 4e, but I barely used it in play. I do occasionally mine 4e for ideas though. Is that "using" it? I dunno.

QuoteWell, Imperator....precise data is hard for me to find. A while back, I was reading threads on ENWorld, RPGnet, and other such places where professionals in the rpg industry were saying that Pathfinder is outselling 4e. But is that true only in brick and mortar stores, or overall? I don't know. The DDI is probably helping WoTC in a major way, and it might be a sign of WoTC's goal to switch the game mostly to the digital realm. I don't know what either WoTC or Paizo are earning in annual profits from online subscriptions, so this could all be pissing in the wind.

QuoteThe problem here is that you're kinda right. The gaming professionals that were online weren't precisely breaking down the numbers, and weren't telling us how many units were sold, nor were they providing us with info on total sales and total profits from 2008 to now. But I am saying that the situation looks rather poor for the utter domination of 4.x in both the hobby and the industry.

Quote from: jeff37923;443088Wow, for a consultant, you sure don't care about getting things right.

QuoteSee, WotC had as part of their advertising for 4E, a meme where anyone who didn't like the new product was an inferior gamer.

QuoteThis banner was taken up by a vocal and obnoxious segment of the 4E fanbase who charged with it waving at game stores and forums across the internet. The ones who were the most abrasive also tended in my experience to be part of the RPGA and had a vested interest in organizing RPGA events for 4E and recruiting members for 4E RPGA.

QuoteBecause if you are in business to make money from selling a product or service, you do not attract customers by saying that "You suck!" if you don't spend your money on that business.

Quote from: Imperator;443096Yeah, so what? This has been done since the beginning. "My game is better, every other game sucks. Buy it" "If you use Windows you're a nerd, if you own a Mac you are cool."


So, some fans were huge retards. Big deal. Unless you show me how WotC paid them to be jackasses, I still don't see how a company needs to apologize for anyone's behaviour other than its employees.

Quote from: ImperatorBut they're satisfying another demands, of another people. God, how narcissistic of yours to whine like a bitch because your demands are not satisfied.

Quote from: jeff37923;443102So, the behavior of the rabid fans who are promoting a product, selling it to a customer in effect, doesn't matter in how that product is percieved? Especially when that negative behavior is encouraged through reward programs and incentives?

Quote from: nezach;443023Speaking of the past, is this the same Mike Mearls who wrote this review of Keep on the Borderland?

 http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1250.html)

Quote from: ImperatorSays who? Which data are you using?

Quote from: Imperator;443104It depends on the person looking at those fans. It may influence you. I just don't give a fuck. Some people may even be more interested.

The point I make is, unless these fans are on the payroll of WotC, actin' under WotC instructions, I can't see how the company should apologize for the behaviour of some fans they're not responsible for.

It's like a football club having to apologize because some of its fans get drunk after a game and they get into a fight. Makes no sense to me.

Quote from: Phillip;443108Why does Chaosium not redesign Call of Cthulhu from the ground up with each edition? Why do they simply, when it's time for another printing, maybe do a new cover and layout; maybe make some small changes (e.g., 00% skills to 01%); maybe add a scenario, or a monster; that sort of thing?

The answer is that they have a steady flow of NEW PLAYERS to buy the new books, and old players buying them is just icing on the cake. Both new players and old also buy new supplements and old, of which a good selection is in print at any time.

Quote from: ImperatorThat is what you suppose, yeah.

Quote from: ImperatorAgain, says who?

Quote from: ImperatorFor fuck's sake, I live in Europe, where D&D is not so overwhelmingly dominantas in the US, and even here that statement would be stupid as Hell.

Quote from: WindjammerAnd, oh, Philip, I think you're too emotional about the 4E team rejecting hugh swaths of D&D legacy.

Quote from: jeff37923;443109If RPGA members are told to go out and promote the new 4E flagship WotC product, then WotC is asking them to be representatives of that company and that product. It only makes sense to tell them to not be douchebags about it, which didn't happen. In fact, the opposite was encouraged.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443117You are projecting way too much of your own behavior, Jeff.

Quote from: jeff37923;443119Hello, 4E Schill Bad Behavior Example Poster Boy!

Quote from: GameDaddy;443106Gary Gygax is not the original author of Keep on the Borderland... The original author was Dave Sering and it was published almost two years prior by Judges Guild. It wasn't called Keep on The Borderlands, of course, it was known to us grognards as Frontier Forts of Kelnore.

Quote from: jgants;443075This line of thinking would completely ignore the fact that even at the height of D&D's popularity, there was never, ever, ever a single game with a set of unified rules that everyone agreed was "D&D".

QuoteSince the whole thing started in the late 70's, there has always been multiple, contradictory sets of rules for the game.

QuoteLet's say we build a time machine and travel back in time 20 years, to 1991, before WotC was around.  If I walk into a game store and ask people if they play "D&D", they could easily ask which edition I mean

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443121Is the issue that I haven't apologized for liking 4th edition?  

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443121Go back and find me some examples of this ruthless behavior you have encountered, and let's look at them in context. We certainly have plenty of history to look at.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443121At the end of the day I think the issue is that you perceive things falsely, over-react against the imagined slight, and then count yourself as the victim in order to excuse yourself from wrong.

Jeff, this is a problem you need to really think about.

Quote from: GameDaddy;443106Gary Gygax is not the original author of Keep on the Borderland... The original author was Dave Sering and it was published almost two years prior by Judges Guild. It wasn't called Keep on The Borderlands, of course, it was known to us grognards as Frontier Forts of Kelnore.

QuoteIt was one of the best modules ever published with a complete adventure generation system built in for both outdoor adventures and dungeon adventures, designed for all levels of play!

QuoteB2 was a watered down version of this published by TSR to replace B1 with the basic set. This was back in the days when Judges Guild and TSR were getting along fine, and Bob Bledsaw let them re-use that material.

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: Aos;443105Steve Jackson needs to apologize for Koltar, preferably in front of the UN General Assembly.

Quote from: misterguignol;443027Impressive strawman you got there!  Does it keep you up at night when it rustles in the wind?

I'm not saying nobody cares about this edition war crap; I'm saying no one that matters cares about this edition war crap.

Quote from: David Johansen;443135I'm really and truly sorry you don't feel you matter.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443133Because the 4vengers stonewall the debate and don't give an inch, kind of like Congressional Republicans.    

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443121(I still think it is, by the way, the greatest version of D&D that has ever been published)

Quote from: danbuter;443138I mainly bash 4e to fuck with Abyssal Maw. His rants are funny, especially since he's so sincere about them.

Quote from: misterguignol;443140Doing it for your own entertainment is probably the only reasonable explanation I've seen.

Quote from: ggroy;443141Not much different than the MO of Beavis and Butthead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beavis_and_Butt-head).   :p

Quote from: danbuter;443138I mainly bash 4e to fuck with Abyssal Maw. His rants are funny, especially since he's so sincere about them.

Quote from: Imperator;443104It depends on the person looking at those fans. It may influence you. I just don't give a fuck. Some people may even be more interested.

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;443042I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't believe that WoTC or Hasbro owes me an apology for anything. Granted, I'm not particularly thrilled with their business practices, and I don't take anything they say at face value any more, but I'm not wasting my time with a boycott or any of that crap. They don't club baby seals, so I don't give enough of a shit to boycott them.

I picked up 4e in 2008, and I also recently picked up...um....D&D 4e Gamma World, are whatever we should call it. I have a little buyer's remorse, as 4e was not very ...

Quote from: Phillip;443018No! What's wrong is that the once-mighty "Dungeons & Dragons" brand is now of such negligible relevance.

QuoteNever mind the importance placed even on a fractional version number, which is more the sort of thing that "edition" traditionally means elsewhere than WotC. Pick up the wrong Nth version, and you've got a Players Handbook for a very different game.

Quote from: Phillip;443108Why does Chaosium not redesign Call of Cthulhu from the ground up with each edition? Why do they simply, when it's time for another printing, maybe do a new cover and layout; maybe make some small changes (e.g., 00% skills to 01%); maybe add a scenario, or a monster; that sort of thing?

The answer is that they have a steady flow of NEW PLAYERS to buy the new books...

Quote from: CRKrueger;443133Because the 4vengers stonewall the debate and don't give an inch, kind of like Congressional Republicans. The same response is given to even the slightest criticism.

Quote from: misterguignol;443137Wait, so the reason why rabid 4e haters are rabid is because of rabid 4e fans?

Man, why let those people have that much control over your reactions?

Quote from: Seanchai;443148So the only way for the debate to end is for 4e to agree that it's a bad game, it's not fun, people shouldn't be playing it, and we should all form an angry mob to storm WotC's gates and demand they validate us as people and gamers?

Seanchai

Quote from: CRKrueger;443151In other words, flaming 4e attacks are met with flaming 4e defenses, and honest criticism is also met with flaming 4e defenses.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;443143I don't think its that unusual. I think 98% of the typical 4e hater presence online is just ex-gamers trolling for some kind of response. They've been left behind and theit fragile identitiesdepend on this continuous edition war stupidity. If it was just about playing d&d, they could have returned to that years ago.

Quote from: misterguignol;443152Meh, not everyone who likes 4e is a rabid defender, just as every 4e critic is a rabid hater.

Sorry to ruin your oversimplification.

Quote from: two_fishesWhen Chaosium prints a new edition of Call of Cthulhu, who cares? It's almost exactly the same as the old edition. Why even bother?

Quote from: jeff37923;443154So, all 4E critics are rabid haters?    :D

Quote from: SeanchaiMoreover and more importantly, you're missing the fact that they have updated the game. They do it all the time. Consider, for example, Cthuthlu Invictus.

Quote from: Phillip;443155Believe it or not, two_fishes, but companies exist for more than to cater to you alone! "Well, two_fishes has bought thing X, so our work here is done" would make for very few sales indeed.

Quote from: misterguignol;443022Except most people (outside of Internet nerdragers) aren't that hung up about different editions at all.

Quote from: David Johansen;443025Great I'll be bringing my four hundred and seventy third level Shujenika half Winged Folk half Fremlin with his spell list drawn from the Encyclopedia Magica and expect to play him as written in your next game session.

Quote from: Aos;443105Steve Jackson needs to apologize for Koltar, preferably in front of the UN General Assembly.

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: Phillip;443139Quite apart from that, I find it only occasionally and briefly entertaining. For me, it is the epitome of "30 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours."

Quote from: Phillip;443155Because Chaosium has this little thing called real demand for its product to meet. People keep wanting to buy the books, and that is why more get printed.

Quote from: two_fishes;443158*forehead meet palm*

And what exactly are you whingeing about, except that WotC hasn't taken your personal considerations into account? Pot kettle black!

Quote from: Phillip;443160Mike Mearls is the albatross around his own neck.

Quote from: Phillip;443157I am afraid I cannot fathom what passes for logic in your estimation.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443151Nice army of strawmen there, but nope.

Quote from: CRKrueger;4431514e Defender - I can see where you are coming from, I personally don't have a problem with it, but I can see where you do.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443151...and honest criticism is also met with flaming 4e defenses.

Quote from: SpinachcatWhy would anyone repeatedly engage in any entertainment activity that only gave them "30 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours"???

Quote from: Phillip;443165That experience is not enough for some 4e fanatics. They just can't believe that anyone could really not love their beloved, really not see that we all have been wrong for 40 years -- since even before it was "D&D" -- as to what the game is about. Nothing is enough!

"Resistance is futile", they seem to think. It's just a matter of telling us again and again that we are misguided, and eventually all will be assimilated.

Where's the 4e Calvin to give them a doctrine of predestination?

Quote from: SpinachcatI love CoC, but that's no reason to be delusional about Chaosium.

Quote from: Phillip;443157I am afraid I cannot fathom what passes for logic in your estimation.

Quote from: Seanchai;443164In this instance, the 4e defender has to agree that "disassociative mechanics" are a real and valid thing.

Quote from: Seanchai;443162That's because you're emotionally invested in the idea that 4e is something bad.

Quote from: SeanchaiThat aside, I'm not sure the idea that Cthuhlu Invictus is a supplement actually works. For example, you don't need the core rulebook to play. The entire system is there in the book. The same is true with Cthulhu Dark Ages.

QuoteCthulhu Invictus is a new setting for Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu RPG. Players take on the roles of Roman citizens seeking to protect the Empire from the horrors of the Cthulhu Mythos and ancient myth. Cthulhu Invictus includes an adventure to jump start your Roman campaign, a large fold out map of the Roman empire, 41 creatures and entities from folklore and ancient mythology, 12 new cults, 21 new occupations, and much more. Requires the Call of Cthulhu rulebook for play.

QuoteBut you didn't answer my question about where all these new CoC players are coming from.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443170If you're truly saying that all mechanics are the same...

Quote from: Phillip;443173All that's relevant to the actual matter at hand are the very facts I pointed out.

Quote from: misterguignol;443136Do you have reading comprehension issues?  Do you need a hug?

Ok, I'll bite: explain to me why the edition war does matter then.

Quote from: Seanchai;443184No, I'm saying your idea of 4e critics and 4e defenders getting along involves the latter capitulating to all the arguments of the former. Disassociative mechanics are just an example. You could have used the idea that 4e is nothing but a MMO, that 4e isn't a real roleplaying game, 4e is nothing but combat, et al.. The specifics don't matter - it's the concept that's specious.

Seanchai

Quote from: David Johansen;443190well, that and longbows being much better than crossbows, personal pet peeve)

Quote from: CRKrueger;443193No, I specifically said logical arguments...

Quote from: CRKrueger;443193...and you specifically said the 4e defenders have to capitulate that dissociated mechanics exist.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443193There is no capitulating to common games design terms, they exist, and 4e makes use of a great deal of them, that is simple fact.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443193Here's proof -

4e is a MMOG - Obviously untrue, however its designers have admitted to MMOG influencing their design.

4e is not a RPG - Obviously untrue, it is a RPG, however one that emphasizes tabletop tactics even more then 3e.

4e is nothing but combat - Obviously untrue, however, the ratio of non-combat mechanics has probably been reduced from previous editions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443193You can disagree on whether those things are good or bad, but to deny they exist is stonewalling...

Quote from: David Johansen;443190The reason this edition war matters to me is that D&D is the entry point to the entire hobby.  True I'd give a kidney for it to be otherwise but that's how it is.  My big issue with WotC is they are too dumb to produce a decent entry point to D&D.  My big issue with 4e is that it is too complex to ever be a decent entry point to D&D.  (well, that and longbows being much better than crossbows, personal pet peeve)

Quote from: Seanchai;443200stuff

Quote from: CRKrueger;443203I specifically point out one logical point - dissociated mechanics (aka metagame).

Quote from: Phillip;443165"Resistance is futile", they seem to think. It's just a matter of telling us again and again that we are misguided, and eventually all will be assimilated.

Quote from: misterguignol;443166You love hyperbole so much you should take it out behind a middle school and get it pregnant.

Quote from: Phillip;443168That's you having an argument with yourself, a sort of mental masturbation.

Quote from: David Johansen;443190My big issue with WotC is they are too dumb to produce a decent entry point to D&D.

Quote from: misterguignol;443201...and what do you think you are accomplishing in the edition war exactly?

Quote from: Seanchai;443200Where was "disassociative mechanics" used before Alexander coined in reference to 4e?

Quote from: misterguignol;443201...and what do you think you are accomplishing in the edition war exactly?

Quote from: CRKrueger;4432031989 is throwing firebombs at 4e, Lord Vreeg, Benoist, Morrow - not so much.

Quote from: SeanchaiFirst and foremost, they do change the rules. There's Cthulhu Invictus, Cthulhu Dark Ages, Pulp Cthulhu, and a number of their Monographs.

Quote from: SpinachcatIf we assimilate you, you might show up at our game table.

And that would suck.

Quote from: Benoist;443235Dissociated: From Dissociate.
To separate from association or union with another <attempts to dissociate herself from her past> Merriam-webster link (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dissociated?show=0&t=1299040882).

(just pointing out that "dissociated" in "dissociated mechanics" is not a misspelling for disassociated)

Quote from: misterguignol;443129Why is it that the people who don't like 4e spend more time talking about it than the people who do?

Quote from: CRKrueger;443133Because the 4vengers stonewall the debate and don't give an inch, kind of like Congressional Republicans.    The same response is given to even the slightest criticism.

Quote from: Phillip;443139I am far from alone in that, either! Why should I be? TSR D&D -- especially the combination of Basic/ Expert and Advanced circa 1982 -- was a huge success.

Quote from: two_fishes;443146See this all sounds very reasonable. Obviously I don't agree with all of it, but saying you don't care for 4e, and that you think WotC may have made a mis-step, that's fair. It's the attitude that some people take that WotC has "fired" them as customer, and bear a personal grievance against the company for ruining their idolized game that I find ridiculous and worthy of mockery.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443159Chaosium would really love to live in Philip's world.

Too bad they live in the real world where they barely exist as company and their heyday is 30 years past and their core game is hitched to an IP they cannot control.  Like other mid-tier RPG companies, they are one step beyond a garage band.  

I love CoC, but that's no reason to be delusional about Chaosium.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443170If you're truly saying that all mechanics are the same, there are none that are associated with the reality of the setting, ie. "physics engine" mechanics and those that are dissociated from the reality of the setting, ie. many "meta-gaming" or "narrative" mechanics, then right there the problem begins.

Quote from: Imperator;443255Me if I'm in the mood for arguing: Well, those criticisms have been leveraged against D&D since the beginning (ablative HPs are disociative as hell, many people look down on D&D as being a hackfest for lootand XP since the beginning, and the fighters had magical powers of being stabbed and not dying, with the rogues pretty close behind). Seriously, I've been hearing those criticisms against D&D since 1985. So, 4e is totally D&D in my book, it gets the same criticisms.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;443261In 4e, you can't even tell if someone is physically injured, but the cleric is still supposed to figure out they need healing by metagaming. Dodging the greatsword costs more dodge points that dodging the dagger, and you still need to check for poison after the snake 'misses' you.

Quote[H]it points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors... the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

QuoteHit points (hp) measure your ability to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character's skill, luck, and resolve -- all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;443261Nup. Justin can correct your misuse of 'disassociated' himself, but 4E hit points are a huge jump further away from realism than previously.

Quote1E/2E/3E assumed some of your HP were due to luck or skill or supernatural intervention or whatever, but it was conceptualized as being more about 'rolling with the punches'.

Quote from: Imperator;443264I have my Red Box booklets here, and I cannot find such explanation. Frankly, it looks to me like another instance of this OSR revisionism where they try to justificate (using their modern experiences and sensibilities) something that never make fucking sense in the first place.

Quote from: Thanlis;443265Yaar. I mean, the term for being at half your hit points in 4e is bloodied; that's a pretty strong association between hit points and physical damage. And just like in every other edition of D&D I've ever played, everyone describes incoming damage as incoming damage -- you never hear someone say "ah, I took 10 points of damage, so I'm getting more tired even though I wasn't actually hit by the broadsword."

Quote from: Imperator;443264I have my Red Box booklets here, and I cannot find such explanation. Frankly, it looks to me like another instance of this OSR revisionism where they try to justificate (using their modern experiences and sensibilities) something that never make fucking sense in the first place.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;443274Put down the haterade for a second and re-read what he said 1e, 2e, 3e.

I don't think it was outlined in Mentzer's Basic D&D revision.  It's quoted up above where it's mentioned in AD&D.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;443274Put down the haterade for a second and re-read what he said 1e, 2e, 3e.

I don't think it was outlined in Mentzer's Basic D&D revision.  It's quoted up above where it's mentioned in AD&D.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443220Gary Gygax was hiding them in his closet.  They've been there since 1974 when he used them to create every aspect of D&D.

Quote from: Imperator;443268And if it is a mishmash of different things (luck, god's favour, toughness, rolling with the punches) why you get better with a CURE LIGHT WOUNDS spell?

Quote from: Benoist;443294Doesn't mean you have to like healing surges or whatnot, but stuff like confidence restoring hit points, a leader's aura or whatnot, does make sense to me in that sense. Heck, there's a lot I do not like about 4e, but that's not one of them.

Quote from: two_fishes;443295The only change I feel like I need to make is that when a PC is at 0 hp, they're not unconscious, just helpless and prone. They're like Rocky, in the ring, knocked down, humping the ground, and being counted out. They're struggling to get back up, and only dimly aware of their surroundings. Maybe they can get up again, or maybe they're out for good--they're making those death saves, but maybe hearing the inspiring words of their leader is that thing they need to pick themselves back up and get back in the game.

Quote from: Benoist;443296Why does that bother you that characters lose consciousness at 0 HP? (trying to understand where you come from)

Quote from: two_fishes;443295The only change I feel like I need to make is that when a PC is at 0 hp, they're not unconscious, just helpless and prone. They're like Rocky, in the ring, knocked down, humping the ground, and being counted out. They're struggling to get back up, and only dimly aware of their surroundings. Maybe they can get up again, or maybe they're out for good--they're making those death saves, but maybe hearing the inspiring words of their leader is that thing they need to pick themselves back up and get back in the game.

Quote from: Benoist;443296Why does that bother you that characters lose consciousness at 0 HP? (trying to understand where you come from)

Quote from: two_fishes;443299Specifically because a Warlord's Inspiring Word affects them.

Quote from: two_fishes;443299Specifically because a Warlord's Inspiring Word affects them.

Quote from: Cole;443306Interesting. Would you rule, in general, that Inspiring Word would only work if the target character can hear (or at least see) the Warlord use the power?

My current 4e party includes a warlord and this situation hasn't come up yet, but it doesn't seem that unlikely.

Quote from: two_fishes;443308Possibly, depending on the tone of the game and the specific situation.
I've been in games that were very explicitly RAW, where the Inspiring Word would work regardless, and in games where the GM demanded liberal freedom to interpret the rules and enforced this sort of verisimilitude. Each way has advantages and drawbacks.

Quote from: Benoist;443294Actually, it makes a lot of sense to me, in the way a deity can soothe the spirit, restore vigor and a will to go on. But then, I do not have the problems with 4e hit points others seem to have, precisely for the reasons Thanlis stated. Honestly, when you read 4e closely, a lot of stuff actually makes sense, though it will often be interpreted in a different way than previous editions of the game, as exemplified by cure light wounds and healing potions v. surges. Doesn't mean you have to like healing surges, but stuff like confidence restoring hit points, a leader's aura or whatnot, does make sense to me in that way. Heck, there's a lot I do not like about 4e, but that's not one of them.

Quote from: Doom;443303R
In D&D, if a player says "this acid does 3-12 points of damage. I pour it over the kobold to knock him unconscious," he's basically greeted with a snort of laughter from the DM. Yes, there was metagaming due to the disconnect, but still it was expected that actions would have reasonable consequences.

In 4e, the rules are built-in to allow you to knock monsters unconscious by spewing acid on them, or casting fireball (sic), or whatever. It's a different point of view. Pawns can move 2 spaces on their first move cause them's the rules, is all.

Quote from: misterguignol;443325Wait, I'm not sure I understand the problem here.  People do pass out due to massive pain and shock, just as they can be knocked unconscious from a fiery explosion.  How is that metagaming?  Have I missed your point somehow?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;443333You can knock someone out using subdual damage in AD&D, but it's specified that it's the flat of the sword, pommel of the dagger, etc.

I'm not exactly sure how you'd subdue with a jar of acid :D

Quote from: Benoist;443309Right; I'm just asking for your particular opinion on it; "depends on the tone of the game/the specific situation" is a good answer. (In most any game I prefer to privilege playing to the situation over playing to the rules, but my experience running 4e is very limited; I just DMed the Shadowfell module and was trying to run strictly to the rules just to get the sense of them.)

I'd still be interested in hearing about how you approach making those kinds of decisions in 4e, but if you don't feel like going into that much detail it's fine.

Quote from: ImperatorThat ended in bankruptcy.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;443333You can knock someone out using subdual damage in AD&D, but it's specified that it's the flat of the sword, pommel of the dagger, etc.

I'm not exactly sure how you'd subdue with a jar of acid :D

Quote from: Thanlis;443262Yes, there is SO MUCH ROOM for people who like 4e to talk to the crowd that dislikes it. Here, let me share two quotes with you.

You can tell which one is from 1978 and which one is from 2008, because one is couched in third person and one is couched in second person, but that's the only fucking distinction. You are MAKING SHIT UP about 4th edition because you don't like it.

Quote from: 3.5 PHB pg 145Hit points mean two things in the campaign world: the ability to take physical punishment and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favour or inner power.When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she does not have the favour of some higher power.

Quote from: ImperatorWhen Philip mentioned the influx of new players buying the game I honestly wondered what the fuck he was talkin about. I still do.

Quote from: Phillip;443365Over every one of those 30 years, whether it was in print or not, the Arkham Horror board game was recommended to board game enthusiasts, who might thereby come into contact with CoC enthusiasts.

Quote from: Doom;443354Using the Thanlis HyperObtuse Method (TM), you'd clunk them in the head with the jar repeatedly, of course. ;)

Quote from: Thanlis;443384No, really. Pouring acid on someone in real life is much more likely to disable them than kill them instantly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443377Hit Points are the one defense that 4vengers always fall back to.  

Quote from: Thanlis;443384No, really. Pouring acid on someone in real life is much more likely to disable them than kill them instantly.

Quote from: Doom;443303Really it's not the existence of a disconnect between the rules and reality that's the problem, it's the level of disconnect.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;443261Nup. Justin can correct your misuse of 'disassociated' himself, but 4E hit points are a huge jump further away from realism than previously.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443416The whole idea that poison either kills you or magically vanishes from your entire body with a single die roll is utterly disgusting to them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443416That's why AD&D fans are always screaming about how their characters should be horrifically scarred and take huge CHA losses after being slashed with swords and burned by magic.

Apparently "Cure Light Wounds" is also a dermatology spell.   Maybe clerics use it to clear up their kid's acne.


D&D has ALWAYS been built upon massive "disconnects".   The only problem is that 4e presents different ones and reframes some old ones.  

Quote from: Peregrin;443407So people who don't like it won't stop talking about it because people who disagree with them won't concede certain points dictated by certain people?

There's an xkcd for this sort of situation (http://xkcd.com/386/).

Really, though, that just sounds like an excuse to keep bitching about it.  A really bad excuse, in fact.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443416D&D has ALWAYS been built upon massive "disconnects".   The only problem is that 4e presents different ones and reframes some old ones.  

And "change is bad" to those sworn to the Eternal Summer of 1980.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443430Or, what actually happens here, which is serious conversation begins on a topic that may or may not be about 4e specifically, criticism of 4e begins and the 4vengers come in and toss up the flaming-strawman-chaff-machine to block, mock, and prevent any discussion.  The fact that 4e flamers usually come in to the mix and may have started the whole thing doesn't help either.

Quote from: Peregrin;443433Really, though, at this point I'm beginning to wonder if some people actively hate 4e more than they actually like any other game in existence.

Quote from: SpinachcatThe only problem is that 4e presents different ones and reframes some old ones.

And "change is bad" to those sworn to the Eternal Summer of 1980.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443416D&D has ALWAYS been built upon massive "disconnects".   The only problem is that 4e presents different ones and reframes some old ones.  

And "change is bad" to those sworn to the Eternal Summer of 1980.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;443425But that association has been broken in 4E: If hit point loss represents an actual, physical wound then the Second Wind action doesn't make any sense (among others).

Quote from: Justin Alexander;443425Save vs. Poison is a pretty good example an abstracted mechanic that is not dissociated.

Quote from: Cole;443432But man would I like it if you wouldn't keep harping on that "magic summer of 8th grade" psychology.

Quote from: Phillip;443447The biggest problem is for the person new to the hobby who just wants to buy a game and stuff that works with that game, and find other people to play it and talk about it.

Quote from: Cole;443437I think by this point the anti-4e venom around here is fueled less by 4e and more by the "you're not a 4e fan so you're not actually ever gaming" and "you only dislike 4e out of spite." (Though I'm sure these positions are born of the fact that the early anti-4e venom was enough that no mere game actually played by humans could in and of itself generate such venom.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;443462I actually play Classic D&D.   Play, not played.  I have a firm grasp of the strengths and weaknesses of early editions.   I know why many gamers won't touch 0e/1e/2e and it isn't because they are too weak to play Manly Man Old School like the Big Dawgs of RPGsite.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443462What I constantly see on these threads is a rosy nostalgia view of Classic D&D gameplay.  The "disassociated mechanics" nonsense and the "Tyranny of Fun" idiocy scream loud and clear that the real issue with 4e haters is they actually hate the game - because it is different than their Magic Summer edition.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443462Seriously, where's the hate for how RQ has changed from Chaosium, AH and Mongoose?  Or T&T 5e to 7e?  Or Chaosim CoC to Gumshoe?  There is dislike, but I don't see the psycho hate.  

Quote from: SpinachcatThus they can buy 4e...

Quote from: SpinachcatAnd they can also join RPGA and be part of a global network of fans who have many forums, meetings, discussion groups and if they want, they can even create adventures that will be played around the world.

Quote from: Cole;443437The thing about Mearls' essay is that, well-intentioned as it may be, for those already riled up enough, it's not helping anything because it fails to recognize the fairly mundane truth that even a given two reasonable people could be playing what could reasonably called D&D, but still be playing it differently enough that either one might really not enjoy the other's take on D&D. And the rules might be part of the difference between the two play methods, and 4e was a pretty large departure in many ways.

Quote from: Thanlis;443461Well, sure. Because nobody in fiction or real life has ever paused for a minute to grit their teeth and force themselves through the pain. That's a completely uncommon trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSecondWind) In fact, I'm pretty sure the WotC designers made up the term "Second Wind."

Quote from: Spinachcat;443462

QuoteSave vs. Poison is a pretty good example an abstracted mechanic that is not dissociated.

I want whatever you are smoking.

You are definitely hoarding the good shit.

Quote from: Thanlis;443494I think it'd be completely sensible for WotC to start selling the PDFs. Diluting the market isn't a bullshit argument -- it is something you want to avoid. But I suspect a nostalgia vault could be positioned effectively.

Quote from: SpinachcatSeriously, where's the hate for how RQ has changed from Chaosium, AH and Mongoose?

QuoteOr T&T 5e to 7e?

QuoteOr Chaosim CoC to Gumshoe?

QuoteThere is dislike, but I don't see the psycho hate.

Quote from: Benoist;443294Actually, it makes a lot of sense to me, in the way a deity can soothe the spirit, restore vigor and a will to go on. But then, I do not have the problems with 4e hit points others seem to have, precisely for the reasons Thanlis stated. Honestly, when you read 4e closely, a lot of stuff actually makes sense, though it will often be interpreted in a different way than previous editions of the game, as exemplified by cure light wounds and healing potions v. surges. Doesn't mean you have to like healing surges, but stuff like confidence restoring hit points, a leader's aura or whatnot, does make sense to me in that way. Heck, there's a lot I do not like about 4e, but that's not one of them.

Quote from: Phillip;443348Bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy 15 years later was not a consequence of SELLING MORE D&D THAN WOTC EVER HAS.

Neither was it a consequence of lack of sales later. It was a consequence of profligate spending.

Quote from: Phillip;443365Over every one of those 30 years, people were coming into the game's "ages 12 and up" demographic. Over every one of those 30 years, people who had never heard of the game were being introduced to it. Over every one of those 30 years, people who played other RPGs inquired about something different to try, perhaps a "horror" themed game, and got recommended CoC. Over many of those years, players who already enjoyed others of Chaosium's RPGs decided to buy another of the firm's award-winning products using the same basic rules framework. Over  most of those years, whether it was in print or not, the Arkham Horror board game was recommended to board game enthusiasts, who might thereby come into contact with CoC enthusiasts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;443377Hit Points are the one defense that 4vengers always fall back to.  Well, there is a difference between having X number of dissociated mechanics and having 10x number of dissociated mechanics.  The sheer amount of dissociation in 4e is much higher, mainly due to the powers.

Quote@Imperator, it's not a case of there being a debate to be had, it's the case of when there is a topic discussing 4e and immersion/dissociation, we can never even seem to get anyone on the 4e side to say "Yeah, 4e is way more dissociated, I don't give a shit, it works better, plays better and is more fun then any other version of D&D, so I'm gonna go play it while you guys discuss how you don't like it."

QuoteYou don't see any 3vengers stonewalling and dissembling in their defense of 3e/Pathfinder.  We all know what the weaknesses are of the system, for some it's a dealbreaker, for some it doesn't bother them.  No 4venger acknowledges any weakness of the system. Ever.

Quote from: Peregrin;443407So people who don't like it won't stop talking about it because people who disagree with them won't concede certain points dictated by certain people?

There's an xkcd for this sort of situation (http://xkcd.com/386/).

Really, though, that just sounds like an excuse to keep bitching about it.  A really bad excuse, in fact.

Quote from: Spinachcat;443462Psycho hate tells us there is an underlying issue that has nothing to do with game being discussed.  It's about "change" is an assault on their identity.

QuoteThus they can buy 4e, play Encounters every week at their game store, attend monthly D&D game days in most cities and attend any RPG convention in the country and find dozens, if not hundreds of events for the weekend.

And they can also join RPGA and be part of a global network of fans who have many forums, meetings, discussion groups and if they want, they can even create adventures that will be played around the world.

No other RPG offers that in 2011.    Only the current edition of D&D offers this MASSIVE community to new players.

Will Paizo or White Wolf offer this in the future?  Perhaps, but probably not.

Quote from: Cole;443471In my opinion it's because D&D, in the loose, 'D&D, all of it" sense that Mearls talks about in the original essay, is widely tied to most people's perception of the health and fate of the RPG hobby, both personally and as it pertains to them - I mean, exaggerate it to its most polarized extent, if you really like playing edition X and playing edition Y is much less fun, if every last other player else is playing edition Y, the future of gaming is less fun for you.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;443488I want: WotC to quit pretending old D&D didn't exist, or that it was bad and fucked up and wrong and only the committee that designed 4e got it right, and to quit doing something so obviously stupid that even I can figure out that it's wrong, and that's keeping PDFs under lock and key.  I don't demand that 5e feature backwards compatibility with AD&D.  A slipcase "classic edition" limited re-release of AD&D books would be nice but isn't necessary.  I sure as hell don't want new adventures.  Got plenty, thanks.  Just put the PDFs back up and quit pretending that, without that, "It's all D&D, baby".  Because until you give people back a reliable, legal avenue to play actual real D&D other than what is out now, it isn't "all D&D".  It's "the game we want you to play, and nothing else."

Quote from: Phillip;443501The third (AH) edition was still Chaosium personnel writing the rules and the Gloranthan material, and I think much of the Fantasy Earth material as well. AH called the shots, though, on what got published and when and how. The AH mishandling of the line was lamented, and such crap as Eldarad and Daughters of Darkness got called what it was.

Early problems included shoddy production, uninspired illustration, too little Glorantha except in parceled-out reprints, Gloranthan Griffin Mountain changed to non-Gloranthan Griffin Island (which I think lessened it a bit, but still left a great campaign package), and shaman and sorcerer rules that some people considered out of whack.

What made that era "the dark ages" in some people's minds was not changes to the rules set. The rules set was pretty spiffy. It was the apparent determination of AH to downplay what had made RQ distinctive and turn it into yet another dreary "generic fantasy" offering (of which AH alone already had two others). The likes of Monster Coliseum, Vikings, and Land of Ninja were workmanlike but not exciting.

A "sort of GURPS Fantasy kind of thing" was simply not what most RQ fans wanted. In fact, people who wanted that were mostly busy buying GURPS Fantasy.

After a lot of regurgitation, a fair bit of new material appeared in the Genertela, Gods of Glorantha, and Elder Secrets boxes. The presentation, though, lacked pep, both in writing and graphically, relative to the classic Chaosium releases.

By the time Ken Rolston took over the line, producing beautiful new Pavis/ Prax books (mainly "updated" from old Chaosium boxed sets) and the long awaited Dorastor campaign, it was too late except to go out in style, leaving us wanting more.

Some people (such as myself) prefer the 1st/2nd ed. rules, but it's not a big deal because Chaosium merely revised and added to the system, rather than trashing it and substituting some whole new thing. Even with my preference, 3rd ed. is a fine source of additional and variant rules.

So is Chaosium's startlingly punctuated Elric!, which bore not only a different name from Stormbringer but also a foreword advising that they were different but complimentary games -- which was exactly right.

Those two games were to my eye much closer, than 4e D&D is even to 3e D&D. Stormbringer itself had mostly the same old 1st ed. text and illustrations in 4th, plus more scenarios and more illustrations (including color plates) in a new layout. I think the binding was better (my 1st ed. having fallen apart), and the Michael Whelan cover was awesome.

After the split, AH had a truly "same in name only" Runequest product (Runequest Slayers, IIRC) ready to go to press -- when Hasbro bought the whole financially foundering enterprise from Monarch and made AH itself nothing but a name (and a lot of classic games locked in the vault).

I haven't seen the latest Mongoose Runequest. I thought the first MRQ had too many changes just for the sake of change, including some that seemed both silly and awkward for play.

Greg Stafford (or maybe Issaries, Inc.) owns his world of Glorantha, and the Runequest trademark, but I think Chaosium retains the copyright on the old Runequest rules text. So, MRQ may have involved "only restatement of non-copyright algorithms" issues like D&D 'retro-clones', only without assistance of Open Game Content.

However, the basics were still close enough to be recognizable and the renewed focus on Glorantha (this time the Second Age rather than the Third) was enough for me to give it a look. It looked too expensive for what it offered to me.

My impression is that MRQ2 has met a better reception.

I'm pretty sure I would enjoy playing MRQ, and not have anywhere near so hard a learning curve as with WotC D&D (and again with a different WotC D&D). A lot of the material I have seen would be easy to use with old 1st/2nd/3rd ed. RQ.


For one thing, both are still by the designer of "1e" back in 1975, Ken St Andre.

For another, the fifth edition -- in a "5.5" version with 32 additional pages, book alone or boxed set -- is STILL AVAILABLE (http://www.flyingbuffalo.com/tandt.htm) from original publisher Rick Loomis of Flying Buffalo. I'm not sure, but 5th (first published in 1979, same year as the 1st ed. AD&D DMG) may well still be the most popular edition.

The game had already gone through a few changes by 5th: for instance, how many dice and adds various weapons get, how armor works and for how many points, how missile fire is resolved, how many dice and adds a Monster Rating yields, whether one gets Adventure Points for treasure, how Rogues work, what advantage there is in being a Warrior. To some of these questions, there might be at least 3 different answers in different editions.

The text in 5th makes mention of at least some of those changes. If 7.x does the same, then that might help in dealing with material written with 5th in mind.

Perhaps the thorniest problem in a switch to 7th is the change -- very roughly a reversal -- in the relationship between levels and ability scores. I think the numbers are quite different again in 7.5.

The new Wizardry ability powering magic in place of Strength is an old, old house rule that is widely familiar and almost as widely popular. Taking a character from a game that doesn't use it to one that does, one could move points whichever way makes sense.

Reference to "Kremm Resistance" at first left me about as boggled as 4e-speak. Opinion on the rule itself is divided, but it seems a trivial effort to use it or not to use it.

Talents are another popular old house rule, more "quick and dirty" than the skills system in T&T spin-off Mercenaries, Spies & Private Eyes.

I think that the changes are on balance pretty minor even theoretically. As a practical matter, they don't seem to get in the way of T&T players having as much of a lingua franca even as players of TSR D&D.


That's not even a change at all! They are different games with different names from different publishers. Chaosium is still publishing its Call of Cthulhu line, and Pelgrane Press is publishing the Gumshoe line that includes Trail of Cthulhu.


Well, none of these was a case of people who disliked Creative Work X pretty much from top to bottom putting it out of print and slapping its name on something more to their own taste.

Some fans are very fulsome with their expressions of contempt for all previous D&D. Some other fans will go through amazing contortions not to recognize the extent of disagreement between the old ethos and the new.

The designers, however, knew very well what they were doing. That's why it's not the mess (glorious though it may be) that 3e is.