Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 11:07:10 AM
I like the idea of non-attribute buffs -- again, it's harsh enough that half-orcs effectively lose two attribute points from character creation, but they get practically nothing in terms of such abilities. I play in a lot of games where point buy is a thing, and as a result attribute points are fairly fungible -- so half-orcs lose out, bigly.

Well, and the point of non-attribute racial buffs is that you don't have racial stat bumps or penalties at all, just the racial buffs. So an 18 is the best any creature can be and a 3 is the worst... its the half-orc's +50% carry capacity that makes a higher strength score more useful to them, but its also useful to a "puny" half-orc wizard who's Str 8 instead of starting to be slowed down by gear at a mere 40 lb. instead can lug 60 lb. without issue... which if armor doesn't actually restrict casting in the system might be the difference between a wizard being able to wear a chain hauberk instead of just a gambeson.

The main idea would be that racial buffs be fairly universally useful. If all a race offers is a stat boost then the only time that race is a consideration is if you're building a PC whose class needs that stat. But if the racial buffs are less directly applicable to class performance, but more parallel to them, then race matters in its own way while not making it something that caters only to specific classes.

Ex. the half-orc carry capacity above is good for every class, especially in an OSR treasure = XP game where that translates to potentially +50% more xp that the half-orc is able to haul out of the dungeon. The high strength half-orc fighter might carry out more than the wizard, but its a buff even for the wizard.

Tired of WOTC turning their settings into nice safe inoffensive grey paste? Stop bitching about it and fucking switch to pathfinder!

Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Tired of WOTC turning their settings into nice safe inoffensive grey paste? Stop bitching about it and fucking switch to pathfinder!

Pathfinder/Paizo is even more Woke than WotC and their system really highlights that the only reason for their initial successes was standing on the shoulders of the OGL and WotCs mismanagement of D&D at the time.

I already have my own system focused around having fun at the table that handles all my fantasy needs better than Paizo or WotC ever could.

What Chrisc said and it's become even worse with the official FB group now requiring content warnings because some players might get triggered. Hell the mods came off looking like idiots because someone on the FB group quoted the core. Then some triggered child in an adult body reported it. With the mods siding with the second.

So whatever drugs you are on get off them get help because Pathfinder is as bad if not worse than Wotc.

Quote from: sureshot on May 27, 2021, 12:30:31 PM
What Chrisc said and it's become even worse with the official FB group now requiring content warnings because some players might get triggered. Hell the mods came off looking like idiots because someone on the FB group quoted the core. Then some triggered child in an adult body reported it. With the mods siding with the second.

So whatever drugs you are on get off them get help because Pathfinder is as bad if not worse than Wotc.

Hey i only played starfinder for a while. I'm not into D&D settings period.

A damn good friend of mine hated 4e and i told him about pathfinder. he switched to that and was pretty damn happy with it.

Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:32:15 PM
A damn good friend of mine hated 4e and i told him about pathfinder. he switched to that and was pretty damn happy with it.

Timing matters.

Back in 2008-10 at the height of WotC's mismanagement was before the modern wave of Woke exploded and Pathfinder was billing itself as the direct continuation of the popular 3.5e and kept more of a lid on their leftist drivel.

The explosion of Woke didn't really hit critical mass until the Orange Man drove them insane (real life anecdote... I was part of two gaming groups where some of the players were left-leaning and both groups disintegrated shortly after the 2016 elections as the lefties couldn't even stand to be at the same table as someone who didn't express utter hatred for Trump with every other sentence... they literally went insane).

That's probably why 5e's core books, despite a paragraph or two about "sensitivity" were still reasonably normal. It was only after the psychic shockwave that half the country wasn't in lockstep with their idiocy that they started shoving their wokeness into everything entertainment related, including RPGs.

TL;DR Paizo/WotC 2010 are not Paizo/WotC 2020.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 11:07:10 AM
I like the idea of non-attribute buffs -- again, it's harsh enough that half-orcs effectively lose two attribute points from character creation, but they get practically nothing in terms of such abilities. I play in a lot of games where point buy is a thing, and as a result attribute points are fairly fungible -- so half-orcs lose out, bigly.

I agree. This is exactly why Savage Worlds abandoned attribute modifiers, and why they are largely meaningless now in later GURPS and Hero editions. Because if attributes are fungible anyway, then the only thing the mods do is introduce min/max possibilities.

Unpacking that a little more...

I think in D&D-like games, attribute mods only work as intended if one is using roll-in-order. If you choose race and then do roll-in-order of attributes, then a +2 Dexterity and -2 Wisdom means that player characters of that race will have on average Dexterity 2 higher than normal, and Wisdom 2 lower than normal. But even so, there will be 20% of characters with higher Wisdom than Dexterity, in reverse of the average.

However, if you use roll-six-times-and-arrange, then the problem is that +2 in your high prime attribute is worth a lot more than -2 in your dump stat. So any player who takes this race will be more effective if they choose a Dex-favoring class, put a high number into Dex and a low number into Wisdom. So the only way they will do otherwise isn't random - it's because the player deliberately takes a less effective character to play against type.

Personally, I dislike introducing this sort of deliberate min-maxing within character creation. Some people see it as a feature that some PCs are more powerful than others, to encourage system mastery. But I think character creation is the wrong time for it. Player characters should start on an equal footing, and tactical decision making should be important during play, not before.

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM

Quote from: Palleon on May 27, 2021, 06:52:37 AM
My issue is the change totally removes any remaining verisimilitude in the game.  It's pants on head idiotic that 3 foot tall, 40 pound halflings and kobolds can be as strong as a human or half-orc.

Except in 5e any PC could put points into whatever stat they wanted and get it to the cap of 20. Human, elf, halfling, etc. Its just that some races/variants have a slight edge in getting to the cap. So the whole SJW "waaaah! boo-hoo-hoo! Racial stats is wacist!" is the usual lies and smokescreen to leverage more control and push their agenda. It means nothing and does nothing because its meaningless in the end.

In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

With D&D 5E; they are going all the way around the world, to get back to OD&D? 

Quote from: Jam The MF on May 27, 2021, 02:07:36 PM
With D&D 5E; they are going all the way around the world, to get back to OD&D?

That would mean we'd at least get an attempt at interesting high-level gaming.

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

Which is also dumb, but in practice I don't recall it ever being an issue. 

Quote from: areola on May 27, 2021, 05:15:05 AM
Yup, why have race at all. Just ask them to go crazy and create a creature they want to roleplay. I am sure they will knock themselves out. The era of reinforced archtypes/tropes is gone.

thats actually one of the options lol

Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Tired of WOTC turning their settings into nice safe inoffensive grey paste? Stop bitching about it and fucking switch to pathfinder!

You Misspelled "Swords and Wizardry."

Paizo were absurdly lucky.  Pathfinder's success was lightning in a bottle. Every attempt to recapture it has increasingly lead to them fall flat on their faces.   Paizo's in house design team suck at their jobs.  Their approach to "fixing" 3.5's numerous problems was to declare those problems features and double down on them.

I'm sad it took me this long to discover the OSR.

Quote from: Hakdov on May 27, 2021, 02:37:32 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

Which is also dumb, but in practice I don't recall it ever being an issue.

I agree that it wasn't an issue. That's because contrary to the OP, the thing that made races interesting and distinctive has *never* been the stat bonuses.

The stat bonuses are a minor adjustment that have never been a big deal, and haven't worked as intended ever since roll-in-order stopped being the default.

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 27, 2021, 03:15:16 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 27, 2021, 12:10:40 PM
Tired of WOTC turning their settings into nice safe inoffensive grey paste? Stop bitching about it and fucking switch to pathfinder!

You Misspelled "Swords and Wizardry."

Paizo were absurdly lucky.  Pathfinder's success was lightning in a bottle. Every attempt to recapture it has increasingly lead to them fall flat on their faces.   Paizo's in house design team suck at their jobs.  Their approach to "fixing" 3.5's numerous problems was to declare those problems features and double down on them.

I'm sad it took me this long to discover the OSR.

I dunno. PF2 is weird but it's not bad. I'm still examining the system.

Also, any game where you can tell off a succubus after a failed seduction attempt, and cause damage to her, is pretty funny.

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 03:21:11 PM

Quote from: Hakdov on May 27, 2021, 02:37:32 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

Which is also dumb, but in practice I don't recall it ever being an issue.

I agree that it wasn't an issue. That's because contrary to the OP, the thing that made races interesting and distinctive has *never* been the stat bonuses.

The stat bonuses are a minor adjustment that have never been a big deal, and haven't worked as intended ever since roll-in-order stopped being the default.

Greetings!

Well, as usual, I disagree with you, Jhkim. Stat attributes may certainly not have been the *only* thing that made races interesting--but I definitely think that having different, distinctive racial stats provides a very important framework. Flowing on from that, it also provides potential insights into personality, class, the entire society. Yeah, lots of things. How individual NPC's might view the world and experience the world in significantly different ways, all ultimately derived and inspired from a fixed racial stat framework.

So, I think it is very important and meaningful, and having *NO* racial stat framework or profile--orallowing every race the same stats--is terribly boring, and a terrible design choice.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK