Most games were " humanocentric" because of levels limits. It was either taking vanilla, boring,  bland as fuck human. Or get screwed by Demi-human level limits. Why take a race only to get stuck only being allowed five levels in a class. We took humans only and only because of no level limits. While taking other races only if the DM removed level limits.

It does not make for a better game of D&D, it pigeonholes players in taking one race. Yes too many races especially exotic races can overshadow the core races. Yet too many DMs did nothing to make humans interesting. Same thing with ezy too many RPGs companies in the earlier years. Breed like rabbits and high levels of ambition.

As for the OP not impressed or interested with how Wotc is making the rpg even more bland and boring. Sad because 5E has some concepts I like yet more and more not something so want to run and play.

Maybe when WotC releases 6e, they can just slap the yellow Hero System buddy on the race chapter (or species or however they decide to water it down) and just call it 'them'.  Company could save a bunch on unnecessary art in the process.

It actually might be an interesting technique getting rid of the whole idea: players will develop their characters' personalities and particular characteristics through play, rather than auto-grabbing a tiefling or some other type that makes them feel oh so special and unique, coupled with a pointless backstory.

Let's be real, most players pick the race for window dressing or to min/max, or both.
Faceless, drone, murder hobos:  Any encountered NPC would have to roll for Sanity loss at that point.

Oh and darkvision just needs to die a horrible death.

<edit>

I should caveat this as WotC will never do this as introducing a bunch of new, pointless races is one of the biggest draws of these expansion books I would wager.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 27, 2021, 10:33:17 PM
the race chapter (or species or however they decide to water it down) and just call it 'them'.  Company could save a bunch on unnecessary art in the process.

They should call them skins (and yes, you can re-skin just about anything with the newest 5e race rules) since your choice is largely just a cosmetic effect, but I disagree strongly on saving on art. Art is the one thing that now differentiates the skins.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:49:26 PM

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 27, 2021, 10:33:17 PM
the race chapter (or species or however they decide to water it down) and just call it 'them'.  Company could save a bunch on unnecessary art in the process.

They should call them skins (and yes, you can re-skin just about anything with the newest 5e race rules) since your choice is largely just a cosmetic effect, but I disagree strongly on saving on art. Art is the one thing that now differentiates the skins.

If races are skins, does that mean classes are shirts?

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:49:26 PM
They should call them skins (and yes, you can re-skin just about anything with the newest 5e race rules) since your choice is largely just a cosmetic effect, but I disagree strongly on saving on art. Art is the one thing that now differentiates the skins.

Not a bad idea.  WotC could take some ideas from SOTDL where humans are all sorts of crazy colours.  Go fully off the rails and have some human that looks like a barber shop pole kicking ass: I'd actually consider playing that.

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 04:08:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 03:47:59 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 03:32:19 PM
So, I think it is very important and meaningful, and having *NO* racial stat framework or profile--orallowing every race the same stats--is terribly boring, and a terrible design choice.

To be clear -- you think that OD&D and BX are terribly boring and terrible design choices? (Plus Savage Worlds and many other non-D&D-based system?)

Greetings!

YES, they are absolutely boring and terrible design choices. The idea that Halflings can be just as strong as humans or whatever is fucking retarded.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In a game where people can fall from near 100% lethal heights and walk away? A game where big lizards massing several tons can fly? A game where dozens of impossible things happen, have happened, will happen?

But +2 STR +1 CON = EXCITEMENT!!!! REALISM!!! and taking that away makes it all ever so boring?

Really?

Then allow us to club you over the head like a baby seal with a few more points.
In AD&D any race could exceed their stat limits via training books and via spells like Wish. Or to a lesser degree via items like ye ol Gauntlets of Ogre power. And that is not even getting into magic pools which could alter your stats as well. These things tended to be few and far between. But it was more than possible even in AD&D for any race to bump up their stats. If I recall right there was no hard cap on just how high you could take a stat till I think 2e. 25? The AD&D DMG though has it that using wishes to get a stat past 16 edges it up 1/10 per wish. But otherwise no limit.

And even without that any given halfling adventurer of the fighter types could and probably would have for example a STR score well above the average NPC humans 8-11.

Instead of going "Boo-hoo-hoo! Dat mean ol Halfling with 20STR is unwealistic!!!!" ask... "How the hell did that halfling get so strong???"
Magic? Items? Training? Bloodline? Something else? Is it really a halfling even?

D&D has always been a game where the sky is very not the limit.

My grouse with these changes to 5e is that they are not done with any good intention. And that skews everything off kilter. So instead of going "oh neet that harkens back to older editions!" instead I go "oh fuck another woke agenda poisoning the game."

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 11:10:50 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 04:08:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 03:47:59 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
In BX no race got any stat bonuses. Same for OD&D. A halfling could be as strong as a human.

Quote from: SHARK on May 27, 2021, 03:32:19 PM
So, I think it is very important and meaningful, and having *NO* racial stat framework or profile--orallowing every race the same stats--is terribly boring, and a terrible design choice.

To be clear -- you think that OD&D and BX are terribly boring and terrible design choices? (Plus Savage Worlds and many other non-D&D-based system?)

Greetings!

YES, they are absolutely boring and terrible design choices. The idea that Halflings can be just as strong as humans or whatever is fucking retarded.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In a game where people can fall from near 100% lethal heights and walk away? A game where big lizards massing several tons can fly? A game where dozens of impossible things happen, have happened, will happen?

But +2 STR +1 CON = EXCITEMENT!!!! REALISM!!! and taking that away makes it all ever so boring?

Really?

Then allow us to club you over the head like a baby seal with a few more points.
In AD&D any race could exceed their stat limits via training books and via spells like Wish. Or to a lesser degree via items like ye ol Gauntlets of Ogre power. And that is not even getting into magic pools which could alter your stats as well. These things tended to be few and far between. But it was more than possible even in AD&D for any race to bump up their stats. If I recall right there was no hard cap on just how high you could take a stat till I think 2e. 25? The AD&D DMG though has it that using wishes to get a stat past 16 edges it up 1/10 per wish. But otherwise no limit.

And even without that any given halfling adventurer of the fighter types could and probably would have for example a STR score well above the average NPC humans 8-11.

Instead of going "Boo-hoo-hoo! Dat mean ol Halfling with 20STR is unwealistic!!!!" ask... "How the hell did that halfling get so strong???"
Magic? Items? Training? Bloodline? Something else? Is it really a halfling even?

D&D has always been a game where the sky is very not the limit.

My grouse with these changes to 5e is that they are not done with any good intention. And that skews everything off kilter. So instead of going "oh neet that harkens back to older editions!" instead I go "oh fuck another woke agenda poisoning the game."

The old "some things about the game are not realistic, so it doesn't matter if anything about the game is realistic" argument.  And it's still a dumb argument.  Making the game as close to realistic as possible while still incorporating the desired fantastic elements allows players to use their real-world intuition to make in-game decisions and increases both verisimilitude and immersion.  I'm fine with having a 30 pound halfling just as strong as the 500 pound half-ogre, if having such things is one of the premises of the game.  If it isn't I would like the half ogre to be vastly stronger, because that's what I would expect in real life.

And I'll join the chorus.  These changes are stupid.  There's no point in playing different character races if they're all mechanically the same.  It's simpler to just make them different human cultures.

Quote from: Omega on May 27, 2021, 11:10:50 PM
In AD&D any race could exceed their stat limits via training books and via spells like Wish. Or to a lesser degree via items like ye ol Gauntlets of Ogre power. And that is not even getting into magic pools which could alter your stats as well. These things tended to be few and far between. But it was more than possible even in AD&D for any race to bump up their stats. If I recall right there was no hard cap on just how high you could take a stat till I think 2e. 25? The AD&D DMG though has it that using wishes to get a stat past 16 edges it up 1/10 per wish. But otherwise no limit.

Ability scores always capped out at 25 and mortals generally didn't get over 19 in 1E.

There's a huge difference between having the ability granted by magic items and baked into the character itself.  If the DM isn't Monty Haul, there's absolutely no assurances that the 1E halfling male with a natural 17 strength is going to get any higher.  The 30 years of unnatural aging for the caster of the ten Wish spells tends to make that a poor choice when the reagents to potions of longevity are hard to come by.

This is one of the biggest differences in modern versus old-school.  Yes, old-school could be epic high fantasy when awarded by the DM via items.  On the other hand it could be quite low magic and more mundane without messing with rules.

Quote from: Palleon on May 28, 2021, 12:55:30 AM
There's a huge difference between having the ability granted by magic items and baked into the character itself.  If the DM isn't Monty Haul, there's absolutely no assurances that the 1E halfling male with a natural 17 strength is going to get any higher.  The 30 years of unnatural aging for the caster of the ten Wish spells tends to make that a poor choice when the reagents to potions of longevity are hard to come by.

This is one of the biggest differences in modern versus old-school.  Yes, old-school could be epic high fantasy when awarded by the DM via items.  On the other hand it could be quite low magic and more mundane without messing with rules.

Wait. Are you saying the OD&D and BX aren't old-school? Only AD&D1 is because of stat modifiers and limits?

On the broader point, if you don't give out any magic items in AD&D1, then yes fighters and thieves are less superhuman at high level in 1E -- but it's still true that spellcasters and monks become very epic high fantasy. And the official 1e modules were full of magic items along with coded treasure types from the Monster Manual, so that was the expected default.

Quote from: jhkim on May 28, 2021, 03:31:10 AM

Quote from: Palleon on May 28, 2021, 12:55:30 AM
There's a huge difference between having the ability granted by magic items and baked into the character itself.  If the DM isn't Monty Haul, there's absolutely no assurances that the 1E halfling male with a natural 17 strength is going to get any higher.  The 30 years of unnatural aging for the caster of the ten Wish spells tends to make that a poor choice when the reagents to potions of longevity are hard to come by.

This is one of the biggest differences in modern versus old-school.  Yes, old-school could be epic high fantasy when awarded by the DM via items.  On the other hand it could be quite low magic and more mundane without messing with rules.

Wait. Are you saying the OD&D and BX aren't old-school? Only AD&D1 is because of stat modifiers and limits?

On the broader point, if you don't give out any magic items in AD&D1, then yes fighters and thieves are less superhuman at high level in 1E -- but it's still true that spellcasters and monks become very epic high fantasy. And the official 1e modules were full of magic items along with coded treasure types from the Monster Manual, so that was the expected default.

Greetings!

Of course OD&D and such are Old School. That isn't the point, though. As many have expressed--as well as myself--in the new woke fucking 5E--or OD&D or other old school games (for different reasons or motivations)--having all the different races have *NO MECHANICAL, ATTRIBUTE* differences, or in Woke 5E's case, now all of the races are being pushed to all have *THE SAME STAT ATTRIBUTES*--is bland, stupid, and boring. I think Brad said it, it makes all the different races merely humans with different heads on. Attribute stat profiles may be "minor" to Jhkim, but they are very significant and meaningful to other people.

As I mentioned previously, having various attribute bonuses and/or penalties on the surface seems to be only mechanical in nature, but at least to myself, and likely many others, such attributes are not merely mechanical, but feed into how an entire society in the aggregate may behave, operate, and value, as well as for individual player characters and NPC's alike.

Making all the races the same, regardless of the performance of any one individual, makes conceptualizing and viewing the race as a whole to be ridiculous and stupid, as well as boring, like a bowl of luke-warm mush.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

QuoteYeah, lots of things. How individual NPC's might view the world and experience the world in significantly different ways, all ultimately derived and inspired from a fixed racial stat framework.

I really doubt it at least among standard +2/-2 races with randomized rolls - which is like standard for non-human.
This is not nearly enough to say NPCs will view world in significantly different ways. In fact at all.
You're race having +2/-2 to Int means one will have more top-notch wizards, but it won't take wizards from later.

So it's basically useless in this distinction unless you follow kinda fake stereotypisation based on just +2 / -2 to some attribute.

You need more, like strong enforced psychology traits, weird physiologies, or just treating the same attributes at members of different races differently like Chris suggested.
I seem to remember game when everything from giant to halfling used the same attributes but very different tables for Skill Challenge Levels.

QuoteYES, they are absolutely boring and terrible design choices. The idea that Halflings can be just as strong as humans or whatever is fucking retarded.

The same stat as I noted may mean something very different for halfling and human.

QuoteIt reminds me of my biggest issue with gender based modifiers. Not that they are necessarily unrealistic, but if men get +2 Strength and women get +2 Charisma, then all of the PC fighters will be men and all of the sorcerers (or sorceresses I should say) will be women.

Well only if you allow re-distribution tbh.

QuoteIf you make race have no mechanical difference, then it's just "humans in funny suits" which undermines he whole point of role playing a different race in the first place.

That can be enforced in different way than stats.
Just like paladin class was more than it's class abilities.

QuoteAttribute stat profiles may be "minor" to Jhkim, but they are very significant and meaningful to other people.

You mean people not schooled in statistics, huh?

Quotebut at least to myself, and likely many others, such attributes are not merely mechanical, but feed into how an entire society in the aggregate may behave, operate, and value, as well as for individual player characters and NPC's alike.

Which is considering overall power of +2/-2 bonus (which is let us remind generally +1/-1 to roll on freaking swingy d20) ridiculous notion and just bad worldbuilding in terms of sociology

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:49:26 PM
They should call them skins

You could have the races be irrelevant, and just differentiate them by skin and hair colour. So whether you're a halfling ginger, elven ginger, or orcish ginger, you're still a ginger and get CHA-2.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on May 28, 2021, 05:49:27 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 10:49:26 PM
They should call them skins

You could have the races be irrelevant, and just differentiate them by skin and hair colour. So whether you're a halfling ginger, elven ginger, or orcish ginger, you're still a ginger and get CHA-2.

Well, only CHA-2 if your character is male, anyway. Female gingers get CHA+2.

It was already bland.

This just makes things slightly more bland. 

It's like stubbing your toe when you already broke your other leg.