https://web.archive.org/web/20210721194916/https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-canon-roleplaying-game-novels/
And just like that with the advent of 5th everything is new. LOL. See, we didn't need to worry about Ravenloft before 5e, cause it wasn't canon...or the Forgotten Realms.....or drow....or anything.
Well that was was vacuous.
Maybe someone can interview them about the wetness of water in the D&D world.
Although maybe if that needs to be said, it's an indication of how D&D is becoming more and more of a "Fandom".
I don't care about the canonicity in and of itself (I've had my own work go from fanwork to canon to uncanon), but there are usually two negative consequences to this kind of declaration:
1. So far, whenever a corporation has gone out of their way to declare old stuff non-canon, the replacement material has been decidedly unimpressive.
2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.
So what? This is my Canon, and it is the only thing that matters.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/618rNsyJvyL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
(https://www.asisbiz.com/Russia/Tsar-Cannon/images/Russia-Moscow-Kremlin-Tsar-Cannon-cast-1825-2005-02.jpg)
Now that's a Cannon!
But...seriously the only thing canon in D&D is that which is in the setting that I make.
What Jeremy does not realise is that everything released after 2007 is non-canonical.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 06:51:23 PM
What Jeremy does not realise is that everything released after 2007 is non-canonical.
Half right.
Also everything before.
I never liked gunpowder in D&D.
:)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2021, 05:51:21 PM2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.
No. I will not be.
They, however, will be crying on Twatter about the bad man who hurt their fee-fees.
Quote from: TJS on July 22, 2021, 07:02:06 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 06:51:23 PM
What Jeremy does not realise is that everything released after 2007 is non-canonical.
Half right.
Also everything before.
Sorry man, I dont make the rules.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 07:13:13 PM
Quote from: TJS on July 22, 2021, 07:02:06 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 06:51:23 PM
What Jeremy does not realise is that everything released after 2007 is non-canonical.
Half right.
Also everything before.
Sorry man, I dont make the rules.
Gygax did when he told us to make the game our own.
Completely incompatible with "Canon".
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 22, 2021, 08:11:42 PM
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.
It's the classic Revolutionary approach--the past is a bleak abyss, and history begins today.
Quote from: TJS on July 22, 2021, 07:35:32 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 07:13:13 PM
Quote from: TJS on July 22, 2021, 07:02:06 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2021, 06:51:23 PM
What Jeremy does not realise is that everything released after 2007 is non-canonical.
Half right.
Also everything before.
Sorry man, I dont make the rules.
Gygax did when he told us to make the game our own.
Completely incompatible with "Canon".
Thats not what he told me.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 22, 2021, 08:11:42 PM
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.
It makes perfect sense. Take away the interest and they hope it will eventually wither and die on the vine.
It must grind some of their teeth having to reference the stuff that they put warnings up for.
Guess they're fixing that 'problem'.
I'll bet you they wish they could go back in time and tell Dancey to shut up. heh
So no more evil drow and knghtly orders that are majority men and Redgar who no one outside of WotC ever gave two shits about will get raped in a very special adventure.
Got it.
Devils and Demons dancing at the Blood Prom. The Orange god Iuge is the new elder eye. etc. etc.
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.
I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions. We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon. They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.
As much as I'm also concerned that the vocal, progressive corner of the TTRP community is throwing the baby out with the bathwater (and missing the larger mythic and folklore point) in much of their focus on racism in DnD, etc.... this one doesn't seem to be some moment for losing out minds at WOTC.
Sure, there's a lot of narrative nooks and crannies in all the novels, video games, merch, etc. that's piled up over the years.
I'd want to say "who cares?" but there's a lot of grognards and progressive SJW types together who are getting worked up over this.
The game and the campaign setting is what you express at your table.
WOTC creative can only keep their hands full with what they are doing with 5E and its settings right now. I don't fault them, and it's probably pretty smart from a design and storytelling governance standpoint, even if there's some whatabouts that come along with it.
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 22, 2021, 11:16:01 PM
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.
I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions. We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon. They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.
So is Mystra 1 still alive? Was there a spell plague? Is Cyric imprisoned and mad or is he even a God? Is Kelemvor a god? Is Mulhorand on Aber or Toril now? Is Baalzebul a fly head or a poopoo slug? What's Ygwilv & Iuz up to? How about the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider? Kyuss and Kass? Is Bane dead or returned or...? Did Orcus ever die and become Tenebrous and then die again and then get resurrected?
If we don't care about all that foundational stuff anymore then why should we care about the new stuff being shat out now? What's the point? It's a house of cards. It has the permanence of Kleenex. How do you monetize nostalgia in permanent year zero?
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 23, 2021, 12:49:29 AM
So is Mystra 1 still alive? Was there a spell plague? Is Cyric imprisoned and mad or is he even a God? Is Kelemvor a god? Is Mulhorand on Aber or Toril now? Is Baalzebul a fly head or a poopoo slug? What's Ygwilv & Iuz up to? How about the Queen of Chaos and Mishka the Wolf Spider? Kyuss and Kass? Is Bane dead or returned or...? Did Orcus ever die and become Tenebrous and then die again and then get resurrected?
If we don't care about all that foundational stuff anymore then why should we care about the new stuff being shat out now? What's the point? It's a house of cards. It has the permanence of Kleenex. How do you monetize nostalgia in permanent year zero?
I see the end of all that shitty metaplot as a virtue.
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 22, 2021, 11:16:01 PM
WOTC just declared that only official releases for D&D 5E, are considered canon now.
A bright idea that worked so well for Star Wars... ::)
Quote
I guess that makes sense, since they don't really support their past editions. We all knew 4E wouldn't be considered canon. They took a massive dump on 4E, years ago.
That was just holy and righteous. The Forgotten Realms 3E vs. 4E was like Tolkien vs. Forty Shades of Grey.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 22, 2021, 08:11:42 PM
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.
Essentially, yes.
IMHO this is not about "cannon". Crawford in true SJW fashion, is using a word that means one thing to mean something else.
What they are really talking about is the D&D
Lore. (Past modules and settings). And their willingness to mine them for ideas and then completely re-write them to bring them
"in line with modern sensibilities". WOTC is making a bet.
That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was;
does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.
Based on the sales of NuRavenloft, and their own internal surveys showing that the pre 3e D&D players are a minority of their current customer base, they are essentially signaling that nothing done in the past is sacrosanct, and that they will re-write past D&D Lore as needed to bring it in like with their current year woke political worldview.
Yes, yes, we all know "In your home game...".
But the fact is that a lot of long time players got invested in the D&D IP. And WOTC has basically just said:
"Fuck off losers. We're all about the new cool kids! "IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.
We'll see how this plays out...
Quote from: Jaeger on July 23, 2021, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on July 22, 2021, 08:11:42 PM
The more I think about this the more I realize WotC is distancing itself from past game products. In a way I think they're trying to erase history.....without erasing history, if that makes sense.
Essentially, yes.
IMHO this is not about "cannon". Crawford in true SJW fashion, is using a word that means one thing to mean something else.
What they are really talking about is the D&D Lore. (Past modules and settings). And their willingness to mine them for ideas and then completely re-write them to bring them "in line with modern sensibilities".
WOTC is making a bet.
That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was; does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.
Based on the sales of NuRavenloft, and their own internal surveys showing that the pre 3e D&D players are a minority of their current customer base, they are essentially signaling that nothing done in the past is sacrosanct, and that they will re-write past D&D Lore as needed to bring it in like with their current year woke political worldview.
Yes, yes, we all know "In your home game...".
But the fact is that a lot of long time players got invested in the D&D IP. And WOTC has basically just said: "Fuck off losers. We're all about the new cool kids! "
IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.
We'll see how this plays out...
Yeah, I believe you're correct. That makes a lot of sense.
Won't matter, Wizards of the Coast.
All right, you now say Orcs and Drow being evil is racist. You've made your move, pat yourselves on the back.
But the whole point of SJWs and leftism is to complain about something. "Year Zero" won't matter. Know why?
The next move by the left is to ask why it took you so long to become "woke." Prepare to give in to yet another set of demands. We did not get here overnight.
Note that I'm new here. If something I post violates a policy here, please tell me what it was and why.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 23, 2021, 03:55:21 PM
WOTC is making a bet.
That any fan over 30 that actually liked past D&D/TSR material the way it was; does not matter to the future of WOTC D&D.
I'm 51, and I've generally always liked D&D material that is non-setting-specific and non-canonical. I feel that's how most material has always been published - as toolkits rather than as a fixed canon. I suspect that the vast majority of older D&D players are the same - they play using whatever they like and skip the rest, rather than trying to stick to any canon.
I know that there has been canon about particular settings like Greyhawk, Faerun, and Dragonlance - but I don't know any D&D players who have cared at all about what is canon or not. If anyone here does, I'd be curious about how whether something is canon or not drives your gaming and/or purchases.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 05:14:25 PM
I know that there has been canon about particular settings like Greyhawk, Faerun, and Dragonlance - but I don't know any D&D players who have cared at all about what is canon or not. If anyone here does, I'd be curious about how whether something is canon or not drives your gaming and/or purchases.
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.
At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 05:48:29 PM
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.
At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 06:30:18 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 05:48:29 PM
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.
At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.
I believe it to be referencing the fact that Ed Greenwood has always slavishly endorsed everything WOTC has done to the setting.
It seems that no matter which direction FR is taken, Ed pops up to give his 'creator seal of approval' in some form or another.
Why does anyone care?
I thought everyone around here was already abandoning WotC for the OSR.
And mining the history of D&D for inspiration but not being beholden to it is exactly what the OSR does.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 06:30:18 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 05:48:29 PM
Personally I stopped buying Forgotten Realms stuff in 2008.
At some point you have to ask yourself, if this product is not even awesome enough for its own creator to see it as canon then why the fuck would I?
Can you explain more about that? I've been playing since the 1970s, but the first time I used Forgotten Realms was in 2013. Prior to that, I had used mostly homebrew settings - with some Greyhawk.
WotC killed Forgotten Realms when they jumped 100 years forward in time and para dropped in Trans-Forgotten Realms on top of everything.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2021, 05:51:21 PMI don't care about the canonicity in and of itself ... but there are usually two negative consequences to this kind of declaration:
1. So far, whenever a corporation has gone out of their way to declare old stuff non-canon, the replacement material has been decidedly unimpressive.
2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.
I agree with both these observations.
In itself I don't object to the idea of saying, "We're not going to maintain a bunch of settings at a level where you have to have read boatloads of previous material going back over fifty years to properly understand them," and while I'm not averse to metaplots, I think they can definitely reach a point of being too voluminous and overwhelming to keep up with.
(I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who
didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.)
But resetting to a common point in a game setting's history is one thing; resetting the core assumptions from which all future game material will be developed is something else, especially if it renders existing homebrew material more difficult to translate.
We need to write our own settings, and be done with it. I don't need their settings, anymore. What's in my setting? Whatever I want in it. What's not in my setting? Whatever I don't want in it.
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 23, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
We need to write our own settings, and be done with it. I don't need their settings, anymore. What's in my setting? Whatever I want in it. What's not in my setting? Whatever I don't want in it.
Exactly.
Just for shits and giggles, I'm going to run the following games at the next woke convention
Lamentations
MYFAROG
and of Pundit's stuff
AD&D Oriental Adventures
and see what happens
the whole canon thing is basically to label anything pre-5e as "problematic" or full-on white supremacy. The safe space is 5e with WOTC/Hasbro looking over your shoulder to keep you ideologically pure
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 23, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
We need to write our own settings, and be done with it. I don't need their settings, anymore. What's in my setting? Whatever I want in it. What's not in my setting? Whatever I don't want in it.
Midlands by Stephen J. Grodzicki, of Low Fantasy Gaming, is a OGL licensed sandbox.
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 23, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
We need to write our own settings, and be done with it. I don't need their settings, anymore. What's in my setting? Whatever I want in it. What's not in my setting? Whatever I don't want in it.
Why not start a thread about your setting?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2021, 05:51:21 PMI don't care about the canonicity in and of itself ... but there are usually two negative consequences to this kind of declaration:
1. So far, whenever a corporation has gone out of their way to declare old stuff non-canon, the replacement material has been decidedly unimpressive.
2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.
I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.
I agree about comics. I never got into the mainstream of either Marvel or DC comics in part because of this. (Plus other reasons.) So isn't the MCU a case of declaring older material non-canon? I thought that was much better than sticking to the pre-existing canon.
Offhand, the main other
"resets" that I'm familiar with are in Star Trek and in Star Wars.
As I recall, shortly after Star Trek: The Next Generation started, the producers took the Animated Series out of the canon. I think that was a reasonable move. Trying to stay consistent with the animated series would have been a major restriction on writers, and I thought the various later Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.) series had very quite good material, even though the first season of TNG was terrible.
I haven't followed Star Wars much - but as I understand it, the Expanded Universe of Star Wars (comics, novels, games, etc.) were declared non-canonical some time in the 2000s. I didn't like either the prequel or sequel trilogies, but I'm not clear that keeping the EU in canon would have helped. I think it would have been better to mine the EU for material (like the MCU did to the comics), but not keep it canonical.
How did having no canon work out for Star Wars?
Would "suck donkey balls" be too strong?
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 08:03:30 PMHow did having no canon work out for Star Wars?
Would "suck donkey balls" be too strong?
No, no, it would not.
That said, while I was disappointed at the decision to disregard almost all of what is now called the "Legends" universe myself, there wasn't much else that was practical given that the fundamental goal was to (a) make another Star Wars movie in 2015, (b) featuring the three headline actors of the original (Ep IV-VI) trilogy as they were at the time it was made,
and (c) make it understandable and accessible to the audience who hadn't invested in all of that prior material.
The fact that they completely failed at making it an actual good and coherent
story is a wholly separate issue, and one for which I blame nobody except Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson.
I encourage & support the creation of Canon Councils that are independent of particular corporate creators. What we've seen over the past couple of years/decades is that "intellectual property" is being wielded in a way that's harmful. Because we are essentially living in a time in which all mass-media is controlled by a few monopolies, and the monopolies "own" every piece of cultural heritage in perpetuity (even stuff made a century ago like Mickey Mouse & Superman), it's very easy for culture to be weaponized against you by malicious govt-corporate tyranny actors (like Hasbro).
Ideally these Canon Councils review a certain range of works and provide their seal of approval, or not. While that doesn't seem like much at first glance, it is valuable to have an at-a-glance list of what people actually consider good. Moreover, if the Canon Councils themselves could able to represent a significant fraction of the public base, that gives collective power capable of (potentially) influencing future works. We've been seeing this at work across many different IPs in the form of declining reach & profits.
However, more importantly, a Canon Council can and should have a particular GPL-like license that would permit them to cultivate new stories. Original creative works in a given universe could be released under the license which could then be approved by the CC if meeting certain standards.* The potential for empowering new creative works & giving them a built-in audience is promising, and differentiates a CC from a simple boycott or rating system.
* Obviously there are some legal issues that'd need to be worked around. Exactly how to do that would depend on the IP and the type & scope of the work.
Quote from: Zelen on July 23, 2021, 08:58:37 PM
I encourage & support the creation Canon Councils that are independent of particular corporate creators. What we've seen over the past couple of years/decades is that "intellectual property" is being wielded in a way that's harmful. Because we are essentially living in a time in which all mass-media is controlled by a few monopolies, and the monopolies "own" every piece of cultural heritage in perpetuity (even stuff made a century ago like Mickey Mouse & Superman), it's very easy for culture to be weaponized against you by malicious govt-corporate tyranny actors (like Hasbro).
Ideally these Canon Councils review a certain range of works and provide their seal of approval, or not. While that doesn't seem like much at first glance, it is valuable to have an at-a-glance list of what people actually consider good. Moreover, if the Canon Councils themselves could able to represent a significant fraction of the public base, that gives collective power capable of (potentially) influencing future works. We've been seeing this at work across many different IPs in the form of declining reach & profits.
However, more importantly, a Canon Council can and should have a particular GPL-like license that would permit them to cultivate new stories. Original creative works in a given universe could be released under the license which could then be approved by the CC if meeting certain standards.* The potential for empowering new creative works & giving them a built-in audience is promising, and differentiates a CC from a simple boycott or rating system.
* Obviously there are some legal issues that'd need to be worked around. Exactly how to do that would depend on the IP and the type & scope of the work.
Hmmm the socialisation of fandom. The seizing of the means of legitimation.
Ha.
Not really sure how I feel about that.
I think setting up such a thing and divorcing fandom from adherence to corporate overlordship would transform fandom in such a radical way that's hard to see what the result would be.
Fandom in it's current form is really half in love with it's own powerlessness.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
As I recall, shortly after Star Trek: The Next Generation started, the producers took the Animated Series out of the canon. I think that was a reasonable move. Trying to stay consistent with the animated series would have been a major restriction on writers, and I thought the various later Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.) series had very quite good material, even though the first season of TNG was terrible.
I've never seen Star Trek TAS. What was so restrictive about it?
I hated VOY when it aired, but I'm enjoying it now.
Quote from: Aglondir on July 23, 2021, 09:21:45 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
As I recall, shortly after Star Trek: The Next Generation started, the producers took the Animated Series out of the canon. I think that was a reasonable move. Trying to stay consistent with the animated series would have been a major restriction on writers, and I thought the various later Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.) series had very quite good material, even though the first season of TNG was terrible.
I've never seen Star Trek TAS. What was so restrictive about it?
I hated VOY when it aired, but I'm enjoying it now.
Both the original series (TOS) and the animated series (TAS) were loose with continuity. They aren't even really consistent within themselves - so trying to keep continuity with all of them in later series is difficult even just with TOS. Specifically, the animated series had things like force field spacesuits that weren't used by later series - plus other Federation aliens like the three-armed Edosians and the catlike Caitians that are difficult to do live-action. They brought in a variety of writers, like Larry Niven who brought in his alien Kzinti as part of the continuity.
It's not that the series was bad - just that if writers have to keep continuity with 79 TOS + 22 TAS episodes, it's harder than just the 79 TOS.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 08:32:22 PM
That said, while I was disappointed at the decision to disregard almost all of what is now called the "Legends" universe myself, there wasn't much else that was practical given that the fundamental goal was to (a) make another Star Wars movie in 2015, (b) featuring the three headline actors of the original (Ep IV-VI) trilogy as they were at the time it was made, and (c) make it understandable and accessible to the audience who hadn't invested in all of that prior material.
I agree. Even if they were going to adapt material from the EU, like having Han Solo and Leia's kids be Jaina and Jacen and Anakin -- they wouldn't want to be restricted to canon, given how much was written about those three. They would want to do like the MCU did, and pick some of the best storylines and adapt them into something new.
This of course means they have plans on their roadmap to release something that really fucks with a previous IP. With Dragonlance specifically being called out in his bullshit story, I would be very nervous if I were Tanis. I mean he had two lovers, and both of them were women. I'm sure Crawford sees an opportunity to correct that injustice.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 23, 2021, 03:55:21 PM
IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.
We'll see how this plays out...
Really? This will be interesting. I haven't keep up with Weiss and Hickman. I can't imagine they'd be very compatible with the woke brigade, or even modern gamers sensibilities. I'd hazard an opinion that they're old school in the sense of people from the 80's writing from that storytelling/gaming perspective.
Or maybe they've gone full woke since then. Like I said, I haven't followed them much.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 10:13:46 PM
Quote from: Aglondir on July 23, 2021, 09:21:45 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
As I recall, shortly after Star Trek: The Next Generation started, the producers took the Animated Series out of the canon. I think that was a reasonable move. Trying to stay consistent with the animated series would have been a major restriction on writers, and I thought the various later Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.) series had very quite good material, even though the first season of TNG was terrible.
I've never seen Star Trek TAS. What was so restrictive about it?
I hated VOY when it aired, but I'm enjoying it now.
Both the original series (TOS) and the animated series (TAS) were loose with continuity. They aren't even really consistent within themselves - so trying to keep continuity with all of them in later series is difficult even just with TOS. Specifically, the animated series had things like force field spacesuits that weren't used by later series - plus other Federation aliens like the three-armed Edosians and the catlike Caitians that are difficult to do live-action. They brought in a variety of writers, like Larry Niven who brought in his alien Kzinti as part of the continuity.
It's not that the series was bad - just that if writers have to keep continuity with 79 TOS + 22 TAS episodes, it's harder than just the 79 TOS.
Not to mention all the color continuity issues! :D
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Hal_Sutherland
Star Trek is hilariously bad at canon to the point where episode to episode will contradict each other and official sources can not even agree how many decks a ship will have.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 07:26:00 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 23, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
We need to write our own settings, and be done with it. I don't need their settings, anymore. What's in my setting? Whatever I want in it. What's not in my setting? Whatever I don't want in it.
Why not start a thread about your setting?
Shasarak: Thank you for the invitation. Perhaps, when I'm not at work and i have full access to my writings; I will do just that. Then I would encourage others to add to that thread. Make it a wellspring of non-WOTC setting ideas. Almost anyone can do it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 23, 2021, 10:35:08 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 23, 2021, 03:55:21 PM
IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that new DragonLance books are coming out by Hickman and Weiss, and WOTC may release a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore.
We'll see how this plays out...
Really? This will be interesting. I haven't keep up with Weiss and Hickman. I can't imagine they'd be very compatible with the woke brigade, or even modern gamers sensibilities. I'd hazard an opinion that they're old school in the sense of people from the 80's writing from that storytelling/gaming perspective.
Or maybe they've gone full woke since then. Like I said, I haven't followed them much.
According to the thread where Weiss and Hickman had to sue WotC re: Dragonlance, I would say woke but not Woke enough.
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2021, 05:51:21 PMI don't care about the canonicity in and of itself ... but there are usually two negative consequences to this kind of declaration:
1. So far, whenever a corporation has gone out of their way to declare old stuff non-canon, the replacement material has been decidedly unimpressive.
2. While the Pop Cultists may claim "the old material's still there for you," if you express a preference for it over the new stuff in public, you will be bullied and calumniated until you bow down and offer your ceremonial pinch of incense to the idols of the New Age.
I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.
I agree about comics. I never got into the mainstream of either Marvel or DC comics in part because of this. (Plus other reasons.) So isn't the MCU a case of declaring older material non-canon? I thought that was much better than sticking to the pre-existing canon.
Offhand, the main other "resets" that I'm familiar with are in Star Trek and in Star Wars.
As I recall, shortly after Star Trek: The Next Generation started, the producers took the Animated Series out of the canon. I think that was a reasonable move. Trying to stay consistent with the animated series would have been a major restriction on writers, and I thought the various later Star Trek (TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.) series had very quite good material, even though the first season of TNG was terrible.
I haven't followed Star Wars much - but as I understand it, the Expanded Universe of Star Wars (comics, novels, games, etc.) were declared non-canonical some time in the 2000s. I didn't like either the prequel or sequel trilogies, but I'm not clear that keeping the EU in canon would have helped. I think it would have been better to mine the EU for material (like the MCU did to the comics), but not keep it canonical.
Oh yes, totally, I only was able to get into comics because I've been buying them since the 30's. ;D
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2021, 11:29:48 PMOh yes, totally, I only was able to get into comics because I've been buying them since the 30's. ;D
I will be the first to admit that my frustration with feeling like I'm missing out on backstory is an Asperger's-level personal weakness. :)
Seriously, as a kid I was annoyed about not being able to watch the Bill Cosby comedy
Leonard Part 6 because I'd never seen Parts 1 through 5 available anywhere. ;D
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 11:45:40 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2021, 11:29:48 PMOh yes, totally, I only was able to get into comics because I've been buying them since the 30's. ;D
I will be the first to admit that my frustration with feeling like I'm missing out on backstory is an Asperger's-level personal weakness. :)
Seriously, as a kid I was annoyed about not being able to watch the Bill Cosby comedy Leonard Part 6 because I'd never seen Parts 1 through 5 available anywhere. ;D
I'm being a bit disingenuos, since here in México they reprinted the origin of Spiderman several times under different publishers, and I got lucky and bought one of those since the first issue, same thing with other Marvel characters and of course DC.
But lets be honest, now a day if you're not an aspie (like you and me) you can just google it. So the whole "80 years of canon stops new people from getting into it!" is just a lame excuse from lazy writers that want to write the character but not be constrained by the canon. And they have said as much.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 06:52:08 PM
I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.
I agree about comics. I never got into the mainstream of either Marvel or DC comics in part because of this. (Plus other reasons.) So isn't the MCU a case of declaring older material non-canon? I thought that was much better than sticking to the pre-existing canon.
Oh yes, totally, I only was able to get into comics because I've been buying them since the 30's. ;D
It's not just you, GeekyBugle. My son is into a lot of mainstream comic lines -- he's been reading a lot of them since he was pretty small.
I'm just not into that aspect personally - and in terms of corporate choices, I think Stephen and me are a dominant market. It's only uncommon hard-core customers who get into deep continuity like that - though to be fair, they're high-paying loyal customers as long as they are catered to well.
I think even more so than comics, though, D&D players are more strongly tend away from canon and continuity -- since D&D is so much Do-It-Yourself. In principle, I know there are players who follow the novels and care about whether something is an "official" module or not -- but it seems to me like D&D players are even more likely to accept an unofficial module than a comic fan is to accept an unofficial comic book.
EDITED TO ADD: Just to emphasize the "no judgement" thing here, I'm happy to think of dedicated fans as the elite -- and myself as the unwashed masses. There are some things about my son's tastes that I disapprove of, but this isn't one of them.
Quote from: jhkim on July 24, 2021, 12:00:22 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 23, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on July 23, 2021, 07:46:48 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2021, 06:52:08 PM
I have never really been able to get into comics for precisely the same reason -- I could never cope with feeling like I was missing out on a critical backstory when virtually every other page in any comic book I picked up had an asterisk noting, "See Issue 45, Oct '82", or whatever. One of the things I loved about the Marvel Cinematic Universe was that it was deliberately constructed for people like me who didn't have more than a very basic knowledge of Marvel Comics.
I agree about comics. I never got into the mainstream of either Marvel or DC comics in part because of this. (Plus other reasons.) So isn't the MCU a case of declaring older material non-canon? I thought that was much better than sticking to the pre-existing canon.
Oh yes, totally, I only was able to get into comics because I've been buying them since the 30's. ;D
It's not just you, GeekyBugle. My son is into a lot of mainstream comic lines -- he's been reading a lot of them since he was pretty small.
I'm just not into that aspect personally - and in terms of corporate choices, I think Stephen and me are a dominant market. It's only uncommon hard-core customers who get into deep continuity like that - though to be fair, they're high-paying loyal customers as long as they are catered to well.
I think even more so than comics, though, D&D players are more strongly tend away from canon and continuity -- since D&D is so much Do-It-Yourself. In principle, I know there are players who follow the novels and care about whether something is an "official" module or not -- but it seems to me like D&D players are even more likely to accept an unofficial module than a comic fan is to accept an unofficial comic book.
EDITED TO ADD: Just to emphasize the "no judgement" thing here, I'm happy to think of dedicated fans as the elite -- and myself as the unwashed masses. There are some things about my son's tastes that I disapprove of, but this isn't one of them.
As someone with both feet firmly planted in both those "fandoms" let me tell you your assesment is correct, I used to drop huge ammounts of my income in Marvel/DC plus the other 5 every month, and it took a lot of abuse and deception for me to stop buying from them.
In my case the hole in my Spidey collection is around 14 years old now (Since it became clear One More Day was final), and I will likely never buy another Spidey comic. Droping everything Marvel about 4-5 years ago. And everything DC/ the other 5 2-3 years ago.
Only exception is Ragnarok By Walt Simmonson, I need to read that until the end, it's so good.
As for TTRPGs, yep, what canon? Only canon I care about is the one in the games I'm playing/runing. Whatever anyone else writes is BS to me.
Which is why I tended to play SW but way before A New Hope. Playing in the same time period prevents you from being THE HERO.
Edited to Add: I'm not "The Elite" but I'm a whale and we whales were what kept the big 5 in bussiness, without us the comics side of the bussiness is going to shit and the movie side won't be long for this world since the normies will get tired of the cape stuff, especially of the woke cape stuff.
The hilarious thing is that Forgotten Realms is the worst example ever. Pretty much every issue they have "un-cannoned" something with a new "CRISIS!".
Also uncannoning the old is nothing new and TSR was doing it long before WOTC.
Known World was un-cannoned into Mystara. Mystara was un-cannoned into 2e D&D.
Blackmoor was un-cannoned into Mystara.
Raven loft has gone from a cursed kingdom to a demi-plane to a vast prison dimension and so on.
Dragonlance has been flip flopped how many times with its own "cataclysm 1-2-3.0s?
Think even Greyhawk has been changed pre 3e?
The even funnier part is someone will come along and do the same thing to Crawford.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2021, 12:13:14 AM
As for TTRPGs, yep, what canon? Only canon I care about is the one in the games I'm playing/runing. Whatever anyone else writes is BS to me.
Which is why I tended to play SW but way before A New Hope. Playing in the same time period prevents you from being THE HERO.
Never quite understood this. The Mandalorian is a great example of carving out a space for someone else to be THE HERO in their own story.
Until the show started down the horrible path of being self-refferential with all the damn cameos in season two.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 24, 2021, 09:18:55 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 24, 2021, 12:13:14 AM
As for TTRPGs, yep, what canon? Only canon I care about is the one in the games I'm playing/runing. Whatever anyone else writes is BS to me.
Which is why I tended to play SW but way before A New Hope. Playing in the same time period prevents you from being THE HERO.
Never quite understood this. The Mandalorian is a great example of carving out a space for someone else to be THE HERO in their own story.
Until the show started down the horrible path of being self-refferential with all the damn cameos in season two.
But is he THE HERO? Or just a Hero?
Also, the mandalorian takes place sometime after The Return of The Jedi but before The Last Jedi. Si it falls under my premise still, you need to play before or after the OT. Otherwise you're a very small fish in a large pond having a very small impact in the grand scheme of things.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 10:56:30 PM
According to the thread where Weiss and Hickman had to sue WotC re: Dragonlance, I would say woke but not Woke enough.
Someone else said it in that previous thread: It is highly unlikely that H&W Will undo and retcon their own established cannon when they are writing new books to sell to the fans of the originals.
I find myself in agreement with that sentiment.
Quote from: FingerRod on July 23, 2021, 10:33:14 PM
This of course means they have plans on their roadmap to release something that really fucks with a previous IP. With Dragonlance specifically being called out in his bullshit story, I would be very nervous if I were Tanis. I mean he had two lovers, and both of them were women. I'm sure Crawford sees an opportunity to correct that injustice.
If a DragonLance setting book or adventure is in the pipeline...
The betting will not be on whether or not they make an "iconic" NPC gay or bisexual.
It will be on the over-under of how much gay, bisexual, gender and race swapping they
will put into a new Dragonlance book...
Quote from: Jaeger on July 25, 2021, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 23, 2021, 10:56:30 PM
According to the thread where Weiss and Hickman had to sue WotC re: Dragonlance, I would say woke but not Woke enough.
Someone else said it in that previous thread: It is highly unlikely that H&W Will undo and retcon their own established cannon when they are writing new books to sell to the fans of the originals.
Did you not get the memo?
WotC decides what is canon now.
Now that D&D is refreshing their canon and abandoning their problematic roots maybe genre fiction will be considered cleansed and D&D novels can win a HUGO at Worldcon.
(https://i.imgflip.com/5hlqv6.jpg)