So what about that recent announcement by WoTC that they want all fan sites to have to use their official Fan site image-whatevers, and that they don't really want fan-material on the internet at all, if it could be avoided?

Here's the original quote from ENworld:

QuoteStatement from Wizards of the Coast Regarding Fansite Toolkit Two statements from WotC regarding D&D fan sites, the GSL and the Fansite Toolkit. The first indicates that WotC would storngly encourage folks to use the graphics provided in the toolkit and then be bound by the fan site policy. The second appears to indicate that WotC does not "authorise" actual 4E game content on the web at all.

RPGPundit

It's probably so all the content winds up on their own website, permitting them to use it themselves.

I think you might be overthinking this one. Them not "authorizing" something and not "condoning" are eons apart from one another. Kinda like the "unofficial" and "authorized" biographies.

It is a rather confusing mess overall.  They certainly don't want third party 4e stuff popping up on the intarwebz for free.  On the other hand, if you want to talk about 4e all day long in a positive light, get the fan site kit and go to town.

I would check on Clark Peterson's (Orcus) posts, if he has decided to weigh in on the matter.  I haven't been over to ENWorld in ages, so I don't know if he has already talked about it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;339961So what about that recent announcement by WoTC that they want all fan sites to have to use their official Fan site image-whatevers, and that they don't really want fan-material on the internet at all, if it could be avoided?

Here's the original quote from ENworld:



RPGPundit

Well, you are quoting another poster's personal interpretation of what he thinks it says.  Not what it actually says.

The policy says "Here are some images you can use on your fansite.  If you use them, you have to obey this license".

The other comment is simply "we don't have a policy right now for people who do not use the images and agree to the license".

People have taken the second "we don't have a policy right now" to mean "you cannot do it".  But, of course, that's not at all what they said, and in my opinion it's not a reasonable interpretation of what they said.

Bottom line - if you use their copyrighted images, you need to do it under the license.  If you do not use their copyrighted images, you just have to obey copyright and trademark and other intellectual property laws, as usual.

I have no idea or sense of whether WOTC wants or doesn't want fansites. I do know this: they won't get any under this policy.

Now, they did recently revise the entire Wizards.com site, including things like groups and a wiki-so it might very well be that they are hoping to keep fansites off the general internet and on their own site.

Quote from: Mistwell;339968Well, you are quoting another poster's personal interpretation of what he thinks it says.  Not what it actually says.

Except for the minor fact that is precisely what the GSL says.

Quote from: GSL5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of
example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character; (c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way
of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

This isn't a murky legal definition that is open to reasonable interpretation.  That is a clear statement that the GSL forbids web sites, among other things.

GSL page

QuoteThe policy says "Here are some images you can use on your fansite.  If you use them, you have to obey this license".

It says a good deal more than that, really.  In fact, these two points:

Quote

• No Fee or E-Commerce Activity. Your Fan Site is for your own personal use. You may not charge any fee to customers or visitors to your Fan Site for use of the Wizards Materials that you have posted, unless such activity is specifically granted to you under the terms of the GSL or another separate written contract between you and Wizards. You may not engage in any e-commerce activities on your Fan Site including, but not limited to, sale of products or professional services. For purposes of this Policy, donations/tip jars and general advertising are not considered "e-commerce" activities.
• No Endorsement or Sponsorship. You may not use or display Wizards' trademarks or copyrighted materials in a manner likely to create the impression that Wizards is an official sponsor or author of your Fan Site, or that Wizards endorses or has otherwise expressly licensed the Fan Site. Any endorsement or sponsorship must be approved by Wizards in a separate agreement.

In other words, you can't use the fan site policy to advertise your own materials, whether or not they are for sale.

As mentioned elsewhere, this is would be more accurately named the "Fanboy Site Policy".  As long as you have a web page that promotes WotC in no uncertain terms, you are good to go.

Quote from: Fan Site PolicyInaccurate, Obscene or Libelous Statements Prohibited. Wizards welcomes and encourages honest discussion and opinions about all Wizards products on Fan Sites. However, we cannot allow Wizards Materials be used on any Fan Site that promotes sexually explicit materials, violence, discrimination or illegal activities, or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents. We know you'll keep it clean. We Invite You to Ask Wizards

Is there a some kind of board or outside committee to determine the 'accuracy' of one's statements?  Would WotC shut down my web page if I claimed that D&D cured cancer in my family?

QuoteThe other comment is simply "we don't have a policy right now for people who do not use the images and agree to the license".

People have taken the second "we don't have a policy right now" to mean "you cannot do it". But, of course, that's not at all what they said, and in my opinion it's not a reasonable interpretation of what they said.

There is no policy necessary.  You have agreed to the license whether or not the images are used.  There is more to the policy than use of trade dress.  Clearly, you are unaware of what a 'reasonable interpretation' entails.

QuoteBottom line - if you use their copyrighted images, you need to do it under the license.  If you do not use their copyrighted images, you just have to obey copyright and trademark and other intellectual property laws, as usual.

You might want to take a minute or two and breeze through the actual policy before you make sweeping statements.

Fan Site Policy

:banghead:

Honestly, this doesn't matter much because the GSL is unnecessary for writing 4e-compatible product in the first place. We don't need their permission for that, since you can't copyright game mechanics for roleplaying games. This is just their weak and anemic attempt to keep 4e fully under their control, which will really never happen anyway.

I'll go a step further and say you could create a 4e-compatible OGL game if you wanted to, as long as you describe the game mechanics in your own words. Both games have classes, ability scores, armor class, hit points, skills, feats, etc. There are OGL games out there that are as unlike 3e as 4e is, so this doesn't mean jack squat. WoTC can't put the genie back in the bottle, and we have Ryan Dancey to thank for that.

And yes, TCO...we already know you hate the OGL, so you don't have to speak up. Forgive me, but I just wanted to get that out of the way before it started...

Quote from: RPGPundit;339961So what about that recent announcement by WoTC that they want all fan sites to have to use their official Fan site image

Where'd they say that?

Seanchai

Quote from: StormBringer;339982Except for the minor fact that is precisely what the GSL says.



This isn't a murky legal definition that is open to reasonable interpretation.  That is a clear statement that the GSL forbids web sites, among other things.

Yes.  Which is what I said.  If you accept the license, WHICH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO, then you have to follow their rules.

There is no contradiction there, and every word I said remains precisely true.

QuoteThere is no policy necessary.  You have agreed to the license whether or not the images are used.  There is more to the policy than use of trade dress.  Clearly, you are unaware of what a 'reasonable interpretation' entails.

You might want to take a minute or two and breeze through the actual policy before you make sweeping statements.

Fan Site Policy

I read it word for word, twice.  I stand by every word I said, and I think you are continuing to promote a false interpretation.

If you do not use their materials, you do not automatically agree to their license, and that is true no matter how many times you repeat the opposite.

Bottom line - if you don't use their intellectual property, you're fine.  If you use their intellectual property, you have to do it under the rules of the license.  The rest of your rant is just drivel lacking even basic contracts or licensing law knowledge.

Even if this wasn't as bad-intentioned as it sounds, its just another example that somewhere along the line, and for quite some time now, WoTC has utterly failed in the PR department.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Mistwell;340045Yes.  Which is what I said.  If you accept the license, WHICH YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO, then you have to follow their rules.

There is no contradiction there, and every word I said remains precisely true.



I read it word for word, twice.  I stand by every word I said, and I think you are continuing to promote a false interpretation.

If you do not use their materials, you do not automatically agree to their license, and that is true no matter how many times you repeat the opposite.

Bottom line - if you don't use their intellectual property, you're fine.  If you use their intellectual property, you have to do it under the rules of the license.  The rest of your rant is just drivel lacking even basic contracts or licensing law knowledge.

This is the most genius gibberish I have read today.

Quote from: jeff37923;340065This is the most genius gibberish I have read today.

I think this is the point where he claims to have extensive knowledge of legal matters from his years as a contract lawyer.

Mistwell, can you link us

A) a 4E fansite which uses WotC imagery (or other WotC content) and contains the appropriate fan policy clause

*and*

B) a 4E fansite which exists in the blissful ignorance of the fansite policy, but can happily be linked to as it's really entirely harmless

I mean, there must be fansites of either category out there given 4E's widespread popularity, right?