Chris Perkins explains how WotC D&D will mainline Corporate Cancer into every product:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from
Quote
Leveling Up Our Creative Process: Learnings From Spelljammer
By Christopher Perkins
This blog is one of the ways in which the D&D Studio discusses topics of interest to those who play and enjoy D&D.
In this blog post, I'll talk about how we in the D&D Studio are changing our review process following the problematic content that appeared in Spelljammer: Adventures in Space.
Harmful Content
If we discover that something we created is harmful or hurtful to fans, we correct it. Then we identify how it happened and how to do better in the future.
The first printing of Spelljammer: Adventures in Space included two pieces of content that fans correctly flagged as offensive. The first is an illustration of a hadozee bard that resembles offensive minstrelsy materials and other racist depictions of Black people. The second is a paragraph about hadozees that reinforces harmful real-world stereotypes. Future reprints will omit both the illustration and the offensive text, neither of which had been reviewed by cultural experts.
Inclusion Reviews
In the weeks since fans flagged the offensive content in Spelljammer, we in the D&D Studio have been building and testing a new inclusion-review process. Inclusion reviews ensure our games are inclusive and welcoming for all players.
Previously, inclusion reviews were done at the discretion of the Product Lead, who identified which pieces of a product needed an outside inclusion review. The studio's new process mandates that every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants prior to publication.
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency. That's why we leverage the expertise of outside cultural consultants.
Inclusion reviews now happen several times during a product's development and at least once during each of the following phases:
Text Creation phase
Art Creation phase
Final Product Review phase
Text and art are reviewed separately until the Final Product Review phase, when cultural consultants review the edited text and final art side by side.
Implementation
Now let's peek at how the new inclusion-review process works.
Consultant Reports. After completing their reviews, the cultural consultants submit written reports that are shared with the studio's leadership team. The Product Lead then works with the Art Director and the Managing Editor to develop a plan that addresses the consultants' feedback.
Next Steps. The feedback and the proposed changes are compiled into a single document for review by the consultants and the studio's Executive Producer. Once the changes are approved, the plan is implemented. If the plan requires the creation of new content, that content receives its own inclusion review.
Reprints
The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints. In other words, every reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
As I write this blog post, Spelljammer: Adventures in Space is about to be reprinted. Applying our new inclusion-review process to the Spelljammer reprint led us to make additional changes, which are captured in our official errata document and reflected on D&D Beyond.
Moving Forward
Just as D&D is a living game that grows and changes as we learn, so too will our inclusion-review process evolve and improve.
We are expanding our pool of cultural consultants so that we have the expertise needed to review the variety of material we publish. We will also continue to listen to D&D fans who call attention to offensive content. We will do our best to make this process as diligent, methodical, and universal as possible, better ensuring that our products bring joy rather than cause pain to our fans.[/size]
In short: WotC D&D will pay for a group of outside cultural consultants, and give them creative veto power on everything that they do.
The ride never ends...
Watch as race becomes a qualifying criteria for "expertise" in anthropology or ethnography or social sensitivity or whatever. After Radiant Citadel discriminated overtly against not only whites but anyone not fitting their own model of diversity in the hiring process and then proceeded to be somewhat racist and cetera as discussed in other threads within the content itself...
We really shouldn't be surprised anymore. I was, but we shouldn't be.
I expect WotC will remove all the 'real world' pantheons from 5.5E ... but Asmodeus will still be around.
Combination of OneDnD edition-war salt, plus WOTC deliberately hamstringing their creative output, is going to create a really nice opportunity for independent publishers.
I guess that means they're getting rid of Barbarians as a class soon. D&D took it from centuries-old slur used by Europeans to demean "less advanced" societies and made it into a caricature of the Germanic peoples.
Quote from: Zelen on November 10, 2022, 09:34:49 PM
Combination of OneDnD edition-war salt, plus WOTC deliberately hamstringing their creative output, is going to create a really nice opportunity for independent publishers.
This interpretation actually cheers me up a fair bit.
Hi. WOTC hre. We want to take the D&D game that we turned vanilla over the years into one that is very very vanilla.
That's great news for me!
I just started a consultant firm that instructs gaming companies how to treat white, European cultures with the care and respect it deserves. Eagerly anticipating a phone call... ...
I quote: "While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency."
I don't think you are marginalised if you can work for Wizards.
Cultural consultants for a game of pure fantasy... LOL
Why do any of you play this game?
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
I've not played D&D in well over a decade as I think it's a big pile o' poo... It's WFRP 1e (or 2e) all the way.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 10, 2022, 11:19:21 PM
Hi. WOTC hre. We want to take the D&D game that we turned vanilla over the years into one that is very very vanilla.
My client, a certain Mr. Vanilla, is considering pressing charges for defamation.
In all seriousness, though; this is just WotC setting up an external review team to take the fall when their own creative decisions inevitably run afoul of the Woke. It's not about actually improving the content they're selling...it's about having someone to blame when something goes wrong.
Quote from: Fheredin on November 11, 2022, 07:23:17 AM
Quote from: Cathode Ray on November 10, 2022, 11:19:21 PM
Hi. WOTC hre. We want to take the D&D game that we turned vanilla over the years into one that is very very vanilla.
My client, a certain Mr. Vanilla, is considering pressing charges for defamation.
In all seriousness, though; this is just WotC setting up an external review team to take the fall when their own creative decisions inevitably run afoul of the Woke. It's not about actually improving the content they're selling...it's about having someone to blame when something goes wrong.
Nah, this WotC caving into their demands. Getting you to hire "cultural" consultants is part of their grift. That's why there's an entire industry around it and they insist that you hire them to approve your work.
People will still complain, though, because there's nothing objective about this and there's no way to "correctly" predict what people will
choose to take offense to.
Quoteevery reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
Most Orwellian thing I've ever seen, lol. I mean, that's literally Winston's job in the novel: every single time the party releases printed information, rewrite history based on the party's latest whim.
It is astonishing to me that even the most die-hard Wizards sycophant would ever buy a digital book from them again. I mean, don't buy their printed books either. But digital books? You have literally no idea what part of the thing you paid for will be memory-holed with every single reprint!
When was the last time WotC put out genuinely good content for D&D? This just seems like a smokescreen to avoid all the criticism for the lackluster products they've put out the past couple of years by virtue signaling to people who aren't self-aware enough to realize they have a white savior complex.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 11, 2022, 08:09:55 AM
When was the last time WotC put out genuinely good content for D&D? This just seems like a smokescreen to avoid all the criticism for the lackluster products they've put out the past couple of years by virtue signaling to people who aren't self-aware enough to realize they have a white savior complex.
Rime of the Frostmaiden could have been great if not for the disclaimers.
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.
I also have to second Tenbones' question.
Why does anybody play D&D anymore? At least switch to a free OSR. There are lots to choose from.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.
I also have to second Tenbones' question.
Why does anybody play D&D anymore? At least switch to a free OSR. There are lots to choose from.
Some people like more modern system design than many OSR products have and, nice as Savage Worlds can be, it is far finickier and mechanically unintuitive (as a friend and I have learned trying to balance a Star Wars: The Old Republic campaign) than a simple d20 resolution engine can be.
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
I don't anymore....thankfully.
That being the case, I also don't get pissed anymore watching them destroy themselves......
Cue Montgomery Burns evil laugh
It's fun watching them spiral. It's like they're going.....hmmmm the last few products haven't done that well.....I know lets shoot ourselves in the other foot. LOL
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. *snip*
Yes you can. That's what Pathfinder did for years before 5e came along.
Quote from: Plotinus on November 11, 2022, 07:51:58 AM
Quoteevery reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
Most Orwellian thing I've ever seen, lol. I mean, that's literally Winston's job in the novel: every single time the party releases printed information, rewrite history based on the party's latest whim.
It is astonishing to me that even the most die-hard Wizards sycophant would ever buy a digital book from them again. I mean, don't buy their printed books either. But digital books? You have literally no idea what part of the thing you paid for will be memory-holed with every single reprint!
I agree - I was a big 5e buyer for years, but I aim to avoid making further purchases from WoTC, digital purchases especially.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2022, 06:26:06 PM
Chris Perkins explains how WotC D&D will mainline Corporate Cancer into every product:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from
Quote
Leveling Up Our Creative Process: Learnings From Spelljammer
By Christopher Perkins
This blog is one of the ways in which the D&D Studio discusses topics of interest to those who play and enjoy D&D.
In this blog post, I'll talk about how we in the D&D Studio are changing our review process following the problematic content that appeared in Spelljammer: Adventures in Space.
Harmful Content
If we discover that something we created is harmful or hurtful to fans, we correct it. Then we identify how it happened and how to do better in the future.
The first printing of Spelljammer: Adventures in Space included two pieces of content that fans correctly flagged as offensive. The first is an illustration of a hadozee bard that resembles offensive minstrelsy materials and other racist depictions of Black people. The second is a paragraph about hadozees that reinforces harmful real-world stereotypes. Future reprints will omit both the illustration and the offensive text, neither of which had been reviewed by cultural experts.
Inclusion Reviews
In the weeks since fans flagged the offensive content in Spelljammer, we in the D&D Studio have been building and testing a new inclusion-review process. Inclusion reviews ensure our games are inclusive and welcoming for all players.
Previously, inclusion reviews were done at the discretion of the Product Lead, who identified which pieces of a product needed an outside inclusion review. The studio's new process mandates that every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants prior to publication.
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency. That's why we leverage the expertise of outside cultural consultants.
Inclusion reviews now happen several times during a product's development and at least once during each of the following phases:
Text Creation phase
Art Creation phase
Final Product Review phase
Text and art are reviewed separately until the Final Product Review phase, when cultural consultants review the edited text and final art side by side.
Implementation
Now let's peek at how the new inclusion-review process works.
Consultant Reports. After completing their reviews, the cultural consultants submit written reports that are shared with the studio's leadership team. The Product Lead then works with the Art Director and the Managing Editor to develop a plan that addresses the consultants' feedback.
Next Steps. The feedback and the proposed changes are compiled into a single document for review by the consultants and the studio's Executive Producer. Once the changes are approved, the plan is implemented. If the plan requires the creation of new content, that content receives its own inclusion review.
Reprints
The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints. In other words, every reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
As I write this blog post, Spelljammer: Adventures in Space is about to be reprinted. Applying our new inclusion-review process to the Spelljammer reprint led us to make additional changes, which are captured in our official errata document and reflected on D&D Beyond.
Moving Forward
Just as D&D is a living game that grows and changes as we learn, so too will our inclusion-review process evolve and improve.
We are expanding our pool of cultural consultants so that we have the expertise needed to review the variety of material we publish. We will also continue to listen to D&D fans who call attention to offensive content. We will do our best to make this process as diligent, methodical, and universal as possible, better ensuring that our products bring joy rather than cause pain to our fans.[/size]
In short: WotC D&D will pay for a group of outside cultural consultants, and give them creative veto power on everything that they do.
The ride never ends...
Not just everything that they do; but also everything that they've ever done. That is much worse. So much for them offering us any faithful reprints of old material. They are going to sanitize their entire product offering, both old and new. The OSR has a golden opportunity, here.
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
Exactly!
I call it WotC D&D for a reason.
I believe that there will be a whole lot of D&D still being played, it just won't be WotC "D&D"...
Quote from: Zelen on November 11, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
....
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.
Pathfinders big mistake was going in the wrong design direction from the start. Baizuo openly admitted that they did not fix any of the underlying math issues with 3.x - they just layered an employees house rules on top of the OGL that doubled down on the featapalooza aspects of 3.x.
Baizuo will cling to life for a while yet because they have a huge subscription base that is heavily invested in the PF game system. Fanboys are loath to leave their favorite IP...
Here's an example of what sensitivity readers say to look out for: https://mythcreants.com/blog/ridding-your-monsters-of-ableism/ These people claim fictional monsters promote ableism without proof. This bodes so well for future products.
Dear lord. And here I have been on the record saying One D&D would likely have a good DMG since Perkins is the lead on it. Like multiple times. Not as many times as our resident crossfit/vegan weirdguy564 has mentioned never playing D&D, in case you didn't know :)...but at least two or three times. And now you pricks can throw Perkins fanboi in my face anytime I open my mouth...
There wasn't a single part of that post/update that was good.
And for the WotC employees and other bedwetters undoubtably reading this (you can always tell by the views to replies ratio), you still don't hear yourselves talk. You cannot hear how unbelievably racist it is to attribute fantasy elements and people that only exist in make-believe worlds to real groups of people. Couple that with your narcissistic belief that they need YOU to help them and it is one hell of a suprematist cocktail you're serving up to the world.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2022, 07:16:54 AM
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
I've not played D&D in well over a decade as I think it's a big pile o' poo... It's WFRP 1e (or 2e) all the way.
That's because you're liberated. I honestly think that the Wake Up Call happened years ago... but people still relent.
Conversely, I kinda get it - a LOT of people are relatively new to TTRPG's and started in D&D at 3e and later and they got to get it out of their system (no pun intended). And they need a place to go - which is Mos Eisley here. But there are some people around these parts that really make me wonder. It's as if they're *hoping* things will turn around for D&D as a brand.
And it's like the ship has been hit, it's split in half, even the band on deck has drowned, Jack is a popsicle in the water corking about, and they're holding onto the rail praying for the ship to unsink itself.
Then you get these stories about where WotC is taking it... and you find out they're building a submarine.
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.
I also have to second Tenbones' question.
Why does anybody play D&D anymore? At least switch to a free OSR. There are lots to choose from.
Some people like more modern system design than many OSR products have and, nice as Savage Worlds can be, it is far finickier and mechanically unintuitive (as a friend and I have learned trying to balance a Star Wars: The Old Republic campaign) than a simple d20 resolution engine can be.
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
Oh for sure. I do get it. I'm not advocating any particular system. At this point - I'd advocate nearly anything other than D&D. OSR is the obvious choice simply for familiarity.
But as we all know there are thriving Not-D&D systems out there with strong communities dedicated to gaming-as-intended rather than activism-masquerading-as-gaming. We should have more threads on those. And yes I'm guilty of not showcasing elements of Savage Worlds for people that might be otherwise interested and/or don't click with it if they own it.
I'll try to come up with some posts for it (and other systems) soon, because these are good days for us as a Hobby. Let the ship sink, we got islands to explore!
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 11, 2022, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. *snip*
Yes you can. That's what Pathfinder did for years before 5e came along.
Quote from: Zelen on November 11, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.
Pathfinder didn't replace D&D. Pathfinder was 3E winning the Edition Wars for the second time in a row.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 11, 2022, 02:05:46 PM
Pathfinders big mistake was going in the wrong design direction from the start. Baizuo openly admitted that they did not fix any of the underlying math issues with 3.x - they just layered an employees house rules on top of the OGL that doubled down on the featapalooza aspects of 3.x.
This was not a mistake. This is the exact reason why Pathfinder succeeded. It turns out that, for all its faults, 3E is what people actually wanted to play.
Quote from: Corolinth on November 11, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
Pathfinder didn't replace D&D. Pathfinder was 3E winning the Edition Wars for the second time in a row.
The point you're making here is a non sequitur. We weren't discussing the mechanics of the system (everyone knows Pathfinder is functionally equivalent to 3E), it's that screwups by WOTC can damage their brand/IP to the point where functionally-equivalent products can start outselling the 800lb gorilla.
Someone prior joked that WOTC would cancel the Barbarian as it is "problematic".
Which reminded me that during the 5e playtest there was bitching about. Yep. The Barbarian and how wacist it was! gasparoonies!
I mean this is a company that thinks the COLOR black is wacist. Never underestimate how deep a hole of stupid WOTC can dig.
It is going to be fun to watch when the Critical Role-inspired fad fades away and most of the new players drift off to other hobbies and sales plummet, when Wizards go to Hasbro to explain why sales are tanked and describe how they're going to get market share back by appealing to old-school gamers...and an accountant from Hasbro looks at a spreadsheet and just cancels Wizards.
Quote from: Corolinth on November 11, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
This was not a mistake. This is the exact reason why Pathfinder succeeded. It turns out that, for all its faults, 3E is what people actually wanted to play.
This is true. Then from 2014 most people wanted to play 5e.
I don't know whether a non-woke 5e clone using the OGL could do to ONE D&D what Pathfinder did to 4e. It seems plausible that a gap in the market is opening up, but my suspicion is that non-woke gamers will simply drift away from D&D and eventually D&D will lose the necessary critical mass of core gamers who actually like to run games. I think Mearls & co in 2014 understood that you need those gamers to create a solid core around which the accretion disk of fluffy wokesters can accumulate. Crawford never understood this.
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
Man, I play 1e AD&D and occasionally OD&D because they're cool. I can't fathom anyone finding enjoyment from 3e forward. And yeah, I've played 3e, 3.5e, 5e, too. I playtested the latter. But the awful awful corporate culture now, just shitting up the game? No way, Wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on November 12, 2022, 03:41:48 AM
It is going to be fun to watch when the Critical Role-inspired fad fades away and most of the new players drift off to other hobbies and sales plummet, when Wizards go to Hasbro to explain why sales are tanked and describe how they're going to get market share back by appealing to old-school gamers...and an accountant from Hasbro looks at a spreadsheet and just cancels Wizards.
One can hope it will be 4e all over again where Hasbro finally snapped and out a rather tight leash on WOTC.
Problem is. WOTC has been co-opting an already highly compromised Hasbro so they may have enough foothold to start dragging everyone down with them.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2022, 06:26:06 PM
Chris Perkins explains how WotC D&D will mainline Corporate Cancer into every product:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from
Quote
Leveling Up Our Creative Process: Learnings From Spelljammer
By Christopher Perkins
This blog is one of the ways in which the D&D Studio discusses topics of interest to those who play and enjoy D&D.
In this blog post, I'll talk about how we in the D&D Studio are changing our review process following the problematic content that appeared in Spelljammer: Adventures in Space.
Harmful Content
If we discover that something we created is harmful or hurtful to fans, we correct it. Then we identify how it happened and how to do better in the future.
The first printing of Spelljammer: Adventures in Space included two pieces of content that fans correctly flagged as offensive. The first is an illustration of a hadozee bard that resembles offensive minstrelsy materials and other racist depictions of Black people. The second is a paragraph about hadozees that reinforces harmful real-world stereotypes. Future reprints will omit both the illustration and the offensive text, neither of which had been reviewed by cultural experts.
Inclusion Reviews
In the weeks since fans flagged the offensive content in Spelljammer, we in the D&D Studio have been building and testing a new inclusion-review process. Inclusion reviews ensure our games are inclusive and welcoming for all players.
Previously, inclusion reviews were done at the discretion of the Product Lead, who identified which pieces of a product needed an outside inclusion review. The studio's new process mandates that every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants prior to publication.
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency. That's why we leverage the expertise of outside cultural consultants.
Inclusion reviews now happen several times during a product's development and at least once during each of the following phases:
Text Creation phase
Art Creation phase
Final Product Review phase
Text and art are reviewed separately until the Final Product Review phase, when cultural consultants review the edited text and final art side by side.
Implementation
Now let's peek at how the new inclusion-review process works.
Consultant Reports. After completing their reviews, the cultural consultants submit written reports that are shared with the studio's leadership team. The Product Lead then works with the Art Director and the Managing Editor to develop a plan that addresses the consultants' feedback.
Next Steps. The feedback and the proposed changes are compiled into a single document for review by the consultants and the studio's Executive Producer. Once the changes are approved, the plan is implemented. If the plan requires the creation of new content, that content receives its own inclusion review.
Reprints
The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints. In other words, every reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
As I write this blog post, Spelljammer: Adventures in Space is about to be reprinted. Applying our new inclusion-review process to the Spelljammer reprint led us to make additional changes, which are captured in our official errata document and reflected on D&D Beyond.
Moving Forward
Just as D&D is a living game that grows and changes as we learn, so too will our inclusion-review process evolve and improve.
We are expanding our pool of cultural consultants so that we have the expertise needed to review the variety of material we publish. We will also continue to listen to D&D fans who call attention to offensive content. We will do our best to make this process as diligent, methodical, and universal as possible, better ensuring that our products bring joy rather than cause pain to our fans.[/size]
In short: WotC D&D will pay for a group of outside cultural consultants, and give them creative veto power on everything that they do.
The ride never ends...
My biggest worry with this is that they try to erase legacy books or edit them with their mental sickness
Quote from: Ocule on November 12, 2022, 03:34:45 PM
My biggest worry with this is that they try to erase legacy books or edit them with their mental sickness
Reviewing and editing would have to cost more than any new sales could make up for. It's much more likely they'll decide "we can't keep selling these in good conscience" and they'll memory hole them.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 11, 2022, 08:09:55 AM
When was the last time WotC put out genuinely good content for D&D?
2014 with the 1e reprints, plus S1-4 and A1-4 compilations (not counting A0)
Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?
Doesn't everyone play the editions they play because that's what their table wants to play?
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded. Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded. Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability here, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individual with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird business- speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individual with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
No, they aren't. They are talking about "neuro-atypical" and other special snowflake terms for the massively socially awkward, et al. Otherwise, it would not have been listed with race, sex, and ethnicity. Diversity has
nothing to do with opinions or ideas for these people. They don't value them at all.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2022, 06:26:06 PM
Chris Perkins explains how WotC D&D will mainline Corporate Cancer into every product:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from
Quote
Leveling Up Our Creative Process: Learnings From Spelljammer
By Christopher Perkins
This blog is one of the ways in which the D&D Studio discusses topics of interest to those who play and enjoy D&D.
In this blog post, I'll talk about how we in the D&D Studio are changing our review process following the problematic content that appeared in Spelljammer: Adventures in Space.
Harmful Content
If we discover that something we created is harmful or hurtful to fans, we correct it. Then we identify how it happened and how to do better in the future.
The first printing of Spelljammer: Adventures in Space included two pieces of content that fans correctly flagged as offensive. The first is an illustration of a hadozee bard that resembles offensive minstrelsy materials and other racist depictions of Black people. The second is a paragraph about hadozees that reinforces harmful real-world stereotypes. Future reprints will omit both the illustration and the offensive text, neither of which had been reviewed by cultural experts.
Inclusion Reviews
In the weeks since fans flagged the offensive content in Spelljammer, we in the D&D Studio have been building and testing a new inclusion-review process. Inclusion reviews ensure our games are inclusive and welcoming for all players.
Previously, inclusion reviews were done at the discretion of the Product Lead, who identified which pieces of a product needed an outside inclusion review. The studio's new process mandates that every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants prior to publication.
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency. That's why we leverage the expertise of outside cultural consultants.
Inclusion reviews now happen several times during a product's development and at least once during each of the following phases:
Text Creation phase
Art Creation phase
Final Product Review phase
Text and art are reviewed separately until the Final Product Review phase, when cultural consultants review the edited text and final art side by side.
Implementation
Now let's peek at how the new inclusion-review process works.
Consultant Reports. After completing their reviews, the cultural consultants submit written reports that are shared with the studio's leadership team. The Product Lead then works with the Art Director and the Managing Editor to develop a plan that addresses the consultants' feedback.
Next Steps. The feedback and the proposed changes are compiled into a single document for review by the consultants and the studio's Executive Producer. Once the changes are approved, the plan is implemented. If the plan requires the creation of new content, that content receives its own inclusion review.
Reprints
The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints. In other words, every reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
As I write this blog post, Spelljammer: Adventures in Space is about to be reprinted. Applying our new inclusion-review process to the Spelljammer reprint led us to make additional changes, which are captured in our official errata document and reflected on D&D Beyond.
Moving Forward
Just as D&D is a living game that grows and changes as we learn, so too will our inclusion-review process evolve and improve.
We are expanding our pool of cultural consultants so that we have the expertise needed to review the variety of material we publish. We will also continue to listen to D&D fans who call attention to offensive content. We will do our best to make this process as diligent, methodical, and universal as possible, better ensuring that our products bring joy rather than cause pain to our fans.[/size]
In short: WotC D&D will pay for a group of outside cultural consultants, and give them creative veto power on everything that they do.
The ride never ends...
Talk about a grift... good grief. They never fail to disappoint.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded. Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...
Cognitively diverse? It's definitely apparent they embrace dummies.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 04:51:58 PM
No, they aren't. They are talking about "neuro-atypical" and other special snowflake terms for the massively socially awkward, et al. Otherwise, it would not have been listed with race, sex, and ethnicity. Diversity has nothing to do with opinions or ideas for these people. They don't value them at all.
No, they aren't talking about snowflakes - way to lead with the implicit bias. But this might be as far that this particular conversation probably should go.
This said, and I am very familiar with the term ""neuro-atypical" as these are the individuals I work with daily. And while Cognitive Diversity does not apply to them in this particular business context, industry is better off for making the effort to include them when otherwise qualified - both from an ethical view point, and also for the bottom line. Don't get me wrong, I have issues with genuine snowflake syndrome. I just don't think this is the right target. Hell, (hyperole warning) half of Silicon Valley is Aspies.
Stopping here as it is getting off track with RPGs.
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 06:29:28 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 04:51:58 PM
No, they aren't. They are talking about "neuro-atypical" and other special snowflake terms for the massively socially awkward, et al. Otherwise, it would not have been listed with race, sex, and ethnicity. Diversity has nothing to do with opinions or ideas for these people. They don't value them at all.
No, they aren't talking about snowflakes - way to lead with the implicit bias. But this might be as far that this particular conversation probably should go.
This said, and I am very familiar with the term ""neuro-atypical" as these are the individuals I work with daily. And while Cognitive Diversity does not apply to them in this particular business context, industry is better off for making the effort to include them when otherwise qualified - both from an ethical view point, and also for the bottom line. Don't get me wrong, I have issues with genuine snowflake syndrome. I just don't think this is the right target. Hell, (hyperole warning) half of Silicon Valley is Aspies.
Stopping here as it is getting off track with RPGs.
I would bet good money that the "neuro-atypical" people that WOTC HR are talking about are the kind of self-diagnosed neurotics who want to abuse activism to excuse their poor behavior at the workplace.
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).
Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.
It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.
Quote from: Zelen on November 13, 2022, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).
Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.
It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.
Actually there is (happy to give citations if you are inclined). Again, I don't want to necessarily be a supporter of WOTC and their agenda, but from the environment of the business world, the trend to incorporate cognitive diversity is not the boogie man that it is made out to be here.
Regardless of what they mean by those two words, this is where they officially lose me. Woke Kommissars.
It really shouldn't be any kind of surprise at this point. They've been steadily moving this way for years. They've already had complaints about their "sensitivity readers" not being sensitive enough. I just wrote it off to "well, that's who lives in Seattle". But maps? Maps have to go through multiple reviews for being appropriate?
If there's anything you wanted to pick up in the pdf catalog over at DMsGuild.com, get it now.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM
Why does anybody play D&D anymore? At least switch to a free OSR. There are lots to choose from.
I've been saying that for years but a lot of people still throw money at them, even on this forum! Which makes me scratch my head even more.
Its OSR all the way for me.
Quote from: Zelen on November 13, 2022, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).
Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.
It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.
It helps to be more specific about "thinking approaches". The auditory/visual/kinesthetic thing? So far as I know not strongly supported.
People with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.
It sounds like Tyndale is the expert among us here. But even a few minutes of googling & skimming shows things like https://hbr.org/2017/05/neurodiversity-as-a-competitive-advantage, which is 5 years old and points to multiple places where people with serious statistics can point to teams that select for ASD & actually outperform neurotypicals on those tasks. (Rang9ing from software testing to ... (military) intelligence analysis.)
Now, whether those people are useful to WotC? Possibly for analysing game mechanics, if they took that more seriously than they seem to. Possibly for checking lore consistency? If they're serious about creating a VTT, there, for sure.
The HBR article ought to be reputable, but lacks citations. :( So maybe we wait for Tyndale there. Yes, I'm curious what recent literature you can point to.
-- Software engineer, possibly on the spectrum, likely working around people who are, parent of someone who's likely on the spectrum.
Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AMPeople with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.
Yeah, no shit. I'm well aware that Aspergers people are high in mathematical/logical reasoning, but this isn't a unique thinking style to them.
Furthermore, that's
not what these activists mean, though. In fact, the people pushing "cognitive diversity" overwhelmingly are making the workplace less diverse and driving out the Aspergers types because they're creating an environment that is much more challenging to socially navigate.
My former job had a presentation just a few months ago on this issue.
One of the key examples the woman presenter gave was about herself. She claimed to be dyslexic, and described the challenge of being dyslexic in her corporate HR email job, and how employers benefited from her "cognitive diversity" even if she takes longer to write an email and makes amateurish spelling errors.
Another example the woman presenter gave was (of course) about herself. She claimed to have a condition which caused her to perceive time differently. According to her, this is an issue that can lead to butting heads because people with this cognitive difference have trouble meeting deadlines. She encouraged managers to offer empathy and compassion, and suggested spreading out the workload among other employees if tasks weren't being completed on time.
This is the type of thing that you're much more likely to see at WOTC, under the banner of "cognitive diversity." The Theater-Kid Theocracy they're building is actively hostile to the kind of mathematical, impersonal Aspergers type that just wants to design the perfect system.
They already appointed a bunch of sensitivity officers, and yet the problematic content keeps appearing. Are hidden racists, mysogynists and gamergaters sabotaging the company from the inside? Curious!
Perhaps they should hire more people from Twitter. I heard some of them could be available.
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded. Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
The problem with this is that such assertions usually aren't true, in my experience. Granted, I work at a university, but their version of "cognitive and intellectual diversity" encompasses nothing more than a range of leftist perspectives. And it's often the worst kind of racist essentializing. We have a "diversity" hire so make sure there's a POC, preferably female and lesbian, on the committee, regardless of their subject matter expertise. And in fields like gender studies & sexuality, the last thing you'll find is a straight person. The "cognitive diversity" includes gay men and women, along with trans-genders. They don't want "out of the box" thinking at all; just their virtue-signaling echo chambers.
We've seen this in gaming, where some random Asian guy becomes the critic of all things offensive in RPG supplements despite having no background in the history or culture of any Asian civilization, or speaking any Asian languages. My Chinese wife calls such people bananas. Likewise, the "expertise" of these unneeded cultural consultants hired by gaming companies is usually questionable. Hilariously, the "cultural consultant" for FGG's
City of Brass is some woman who was married to a Muslim. But they seem to have done little to the content, which triggered some reviewers, who find it horrifically offensive.
Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AM
It helps to be more specific about "thinking approaches". The auditory/visual/kinesthetic thing? So far as I know not strongly supported.
You are spot on. That model was disproven in the mid 90s and is no longer used as an instructional model. Although, this neuromyth is still alive and kicking in many parts despite the research. I am not sure of the model that CD uses, but this is thankfully not it.
Here's a quote from that article (https://mythcreants.com/blog/ridding-your-monsters-of-ableism/) I mentioned a couple pages back:
QuoteLimited Mobility: Key words to notice include "shambling," "shuffling," "lurching," "lumbering," "limping," "hobbling," and "stumbling." Also watch for body parts that are dragged along as the monster moves.
Congratulations. You've just claimed that zombies are ableist because they shamble.
Look, I get it. Society still struggles with ableism and other -isms. But we address that by educating people, not policing fantasy fiction.
Folklore, myth, and fiction is full of monsters that look like distortions of the human body and mind. That doesn't mean they're intentionally a commentary on disability or are understood as such by audiences. As surveys have shown (https://www.christopherjferguson.com/Evil%20Orcs.pdf), there's no correlation between the presence of orcs (who are a distortion of the human form) in a game and bigoted attitudes in players.
Quote from: Zelen on November 14, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AMPeople with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.
Yeah, no shit. I'm well aware that Aspergers people are high in mathematical/logical reasoning, but this isn't a unique thinking style to them.
Furthermore, that's not what these activists mean, though. In fact, the people pushing "cognitive diversity" overwhelmingly are making the workplace less diverse and driving out the Aspergers types because they're creating an environment that is much more challenging to socially navigate.
My former job had a presentation just a few months ago on this issue.
One of the key examples the woman presenter gave was about herself. She claimed to be dyslexic, and described the challenge of being dyslexic in her corporate HR email job, and how employers benefited from her "cognitive diversity" even if she takes longer to write an email and makes amateurish spelling errors.
Another example the woman presenter gave was (of course) about herself. She claimed to have a condition which caused her to perceive time differently. According to her, this is an issue that can lead to butting heads because people with this cognitive difference have trouble meeting deadlines. She encouraged managers to offer empathy and compassion, and suggested spreading out the workload among other employees if tasks weren't being completed on time.
This is the type of thing that you're much more likely to see at WOTC, under the banner of "cognitive diversity." The Theater-Kid Theocracy they're building is actively hostile to the kind of mathematical, impersonal Aspergers type that just wants to design the perfect system.
Aspie here, properly diagnosed by a specialist and not by googling shit (Google didn't even exist back then), of all the Aspies I know and myself included this is true, REAL aspies don't thrive in the envoronment the woke cult creates.
Worst if they argue with us, since we do use logic they get exposed as grifters.
As for WotC and their Kultural Kommisars... Good, this is fucking great, let them die, let them crash and burn, this either creates the opening for a new competitor or drives the hobby away from the mainstream, either way a win IMHO.
My two cents for WotC is to egg them on. When they put out racist comments, encourage them to go more. Add in more purity spirals of death. If the Hadoozee are racist, then what about dwarfs not being called little people, dwarf is cultural appropriation for people who are diagnosed with dwarfism. Why are the trolls stats depict them as being low intelligence, that's racist, why can't trolls have a wide range of intelligence, why can't there be troll wizards leading a village of hobbits in growing cabbage? Why can't D&D make a world of all male homosexuals who don't have sex and fight off evil others, why does WotC exclude gay lifestyles from their products, where is "my" world?
The best way to help D&D is to douse the entire franchise with fire. Go into the WotC boards, learn to speak their language and push those fuckers off the plank. WotC is already using Twitter as their editorial board, lets get them to use the Doe Dude with Horns (oh god that always made me laugh a doe with antlers way to go dude) from Twitter as an editor. What about some level 3 sex offenders who used to be Magic Judges but the Quarterly unjustly chased those MAPS out of gaming, shouldn't they be welcomed back and do Seattle D&D home office tours for children?
Right now Wizards is crapping out really horribad content before they release the next edition. All of the purity spiral wankers are going to get their books. Now is the time to push WotC so far over the edge Hasbro freaks and goes full on damage control to sell off the IP to someone who cares about the game. Plus with the Great Recession 2.0 the Wreckening coming for us all, its a great time to push woke companies into bankruptcy because they won't be able to get financing. Blackrock was downgraded from Buy to Hold over its ESG holdings failing to perform. There is hope through economic ruin to fix a lot of content as crappy as it is to look at it that way.
Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded. Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak. They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box. And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.
I'll lay you good odds that WOTC is not even remotely thinking of the same thing you are when using that term.
Quote from: Ocule on November 12, 2022, 03:34:45 PM
My biggest worry with this is that they try to erase legacy books or edit them with their mental sickness
Those comments make it clear that is their intent. Though being WOTC odds are that they just mean reprints of 5e stuff and possibly any 3 to 4e stuff they still have the files for that can be edited and 'fixed'.
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2022, 05:46:31 AM
Quote from: Ocule on November 12, 2022, 03:34:45 PM
My biggest worry with this is that they try to erase legacy books or edit them with their mental sickness
Those comments make it clear that is their intent. Though being WOTC odds are that they just mean reprints of 5e stuff and possibly any 3 to 4e stuff they still have the files for that can be edited and 'fixed'.
The would have to be releasing the older content updated for 6E before they would be edited. They put up their everything is racist on the DMsguild and didn't even bother to read the content in the first place to place a smear in the first place. And even then there are plenty of other methods to get the older content. Since they put that message I no longer buy from DMsguild the old 4E and earlier content from WotC and go elsewhere.
Quote from: Zelen on November 11, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.
There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.
And that is why I'm sticking with Pathfinder 1st edition, and will not be getting Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition. That, and because Pathfinder 1E is basically extended Dungeons & dragons 3rd edition, which so far is the most realistic version of D&D despite it's complicated nature. Pathfinder 1E sadly also had a few woke elements, but in the past they limited it to just a few minor things, and they still let people see things from another perspective (the Giantslayer adventure path had a village with half-orcs that were discriminated against, but which also had many half-orcs join their full orc cousins on a assault against said village, just because they wanted to fit in and didn't want to be "like the weak humans". Plus Tieflings are discriminated against, but also have an innage urge to visit the hells, meaning that there most certainly is some influence due to their demonic blood (which makes sense). They were more liberitarian than woke.
Honestly, it is refreshing to see people with common sense on a forum. Though then again, I spend much of my time on reddit and on discord servers, and realized that those are apprarently very hardcore leftist.
As a advant Pathfinder 1st edition fan, seeing as they extended upon 3rd edition and PF 1E is basically D&D 3.75, wich other roleplay games are rather popular now? So far it seems like D&D is the only "mainstream one" that is promoted, outside the now very woke Pathfinder 2E (which is nothing like the 1st, and while it is fun in someways, it lacks the amazing customization and gritty feel of D&D 3rd and Pathfinder 1E). Any recommendations? I'd like to have one where there are still players to find for, because right now it seems everyone only plays D&D 5E.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 10:44:47 AM
As a advant Pathfinder 1st edition fan, seeing as they extended upon 3rd edition and PF 1E is basically D&D 3.75, wich other roleplay games are rather popular now? So far it seems like D&D is the only "mainstream one" that is promoted, outside the now very woke Pathfinder 2E (which is nothing like the 1st, and while it is fun in someways, it lacks the amazing customization and gritty feel of D&D 3rd and Pathfinder 1E). Any recommendations? I'd like to have one where there are still players to find for, because right now it seems everyone only plays D&D 5E.
Do you have a group? Are other members of your group interested in trying different systems?
There's a lot of games out there, but you need to get others on board to try different things. My group recently wrapped up a game and started running Stars Without Number. We wanted a change from the fantasy style and I think we're all excited for it. We also had some short games where we ran Dungeon Crawl Classics. You can also try out other titles like Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, etc.
Savage Worlds is a lot of fun too, can recommend.
Quote from: Corolinth on November 11, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on November 11, 2022, 02:05:46 PM
Pathfinders big mistake was going in the wrong design direction from the start. Baizuo openly admitted that they did not fix any of the underlying math issues with 3.x - they just layered an employees house rules on top of the OGL that doubled down on the featapalooza aspects of 3.x.
This was not a mistake. This is the exact reason why Pathfinder succeeded. It turns out that, for all its faults, 3E is what people actually wanted to play.
I see it a bit different:
What people actually wanted to play was
D&D, and 4e did not feel like D&D to them. At the time; PF was it.
Even by the end 3.x was a bloated handful by anyone's admission, and PF just doubled down on that. Clearly it had a few more years of life left in it, but 4e was such an epic own goal from WotC that it made PF the people's choice
in spite of its issues, not because of them.
Not fixing the systematic issues of 3.x came back to bite them hard when 5e was released. Because 5e did feel like D&D to people and they dropped PF like a fat chick on prom night once the new hotness walked into the room.
There was no incentive to stick with a version of D&D that had become overly complicated and bloated.
Quote from: Zelen on November 10, 2022, 09:34:49 PM
Combination of OneDnD edition-war salt, plus WOTC deliberately hamstringing their creative output, is going to create a really nice opportunity for independent publishers.
This is the real kicker here.
WotC D&D's creative output was never great from the beginning. Even now they are still relying on nostalgia berry mining to keep sales up. The WotC dev team has not made anything new or original that anyone has clamored for more of.
So they are taking a creative ability that was not that great from the beginning, and stifling it even further.
This is good news.
That's the whole point - they know their creative team is bankrupt. Going to D&D One's virtual model means the playerbase will create their own content... limited to the parameters of their application.
Why be creative when they can just cage the peasants in and provide them with the basic cardboard and water for them to churn out that easy-to-make gruel?
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 15, 2022, 12:21:27 AM
My two cents for WotC is to egg them on. When they put out racist comments, encourage them to go more. Add in more purity spirals of death...
This is pretty close to where I land, but only to accelerate what I consider to be the inevitable outcome of this. That is, they'll continue to "bland-ify" their product until someone, somewhere, at some point, will raise their head and ask, "Wait. Why is it that we play this again? It kinda sucks." This will come when some other new hotness comes out and other cancer injectors (to borrow the OP's clever terminology) like Critical Role and the other popular Sparkletrolls lose their luster.
The pendulum will swing back but corporate earnings will follow a bell curve. Consider them near the top of the curve now, but when the players begin to lose their taste for the already tasteless, they'll spread out looking for other things. Dwarves get +1 CON and +1 WIS and -2 CHA, what a cool concept! *giant eyeroll*
It's probably a long way off and it'll be a slow death and painful to watch for those of us inclined to mourn what might have been.
In the meantime, I'm playing Castles & Crusades and AD&D. WOTC D&D is way dead to me.
Quote from: Corolinth on November 11, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on November 11, 2022, 12:33:33 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. *snip*
Yes you can. That's what Pathfinder did for years before 5e came along.
Quote from: Zelen on November 11, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM
You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.
Pathfinder didn't replace D&D. Pathfinder was 3E winning the Edition Wars for the second time in a row.
Quote from: Jaeger on November 11, 2022, 02:05:46 PM
Pathfinders big mistake was going in the wrong design direction from the start. Baizuo openly admitted that they did not fix any of the underlying math issues with 3.x - they just layered an employees house rules on top of the OGL that doubled down on the featapalooza aspects of 3.x.
This was not a mistake. This is the exact reason why Pathfinder succeeded. It turns out that, for all its faults, 3E is what people actually wanted to play.
Yeah, you summed it up nicely. People loved 3rd edition, and Pathfinder was basically D&D 3.75. I love all the extra options they added, though I'd wish they had made a version at the end that combined all the content. However, that is a nitpick, and I'm already pretty happy we got more 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons. It was the last system that Gary Gygax influenced (he didn't produce it, but he heavily adviced the creators), and he mentioned himself that he loved how realistic it was compared to his own D&D 2nd edition. I"m just glad his legacy endured in that way, as 5th edition is nice but it is basically a simplistic version of what he envisioned. With the downside that this simplistic version attracted the mentally ill normies as well, who made everything about race and gender.
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
It was the last system that Gary Gygax influenced (he didn't produce it, but he heavily adviced the creators), and he mentioned himself that he loved how realistic it was compared to his own D&D 2nd edition.
I remember conversing with Gary Gygax on EN World re the 3e adventure Lost City of Gaxmoor (written by his sons, I'd been running it); he did not express a high opinion of the edition.
Gygax was not involved with AD&D 2e, which came after he had been ousted from TSR.
Quote from: S'mon on November 15, 2022, 06:05:54 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
It was the last system that Gary Gygax influenced (he didn't produce it, but he heavily adviced the creators), and he mentioned himself that he loved how realistic it was compared to his own D&D 2nd edition.
I remember conversing with Gary Gygax on EN World re the 3e adventure Lost City of Gaxmoor (written by his sons, I'd been running it); he did not express a high opinion of the edition.
Gygax was not involved with AD&D 2e, which came after he had been ousted from TSR.
Truly? I recall him messaging about 3rd edition: "Gary Gygax, author of the original Dungeon Masters Guide (1e) (1979), emailed Monte Cook to express his joy at its third edition counterpart, which taught him a few things about being a Dungeon Master.[3]" https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_3rd_edition
What changed? And I do recall that the team that worked on 3rd edition was noted by him as being very respectful and often asking him for advice.
Quote from: Omega on November 15, 2022, 05:43:55 AM
I'll lay you good odds that WOTC is not even remotely thinking of the same thing you are when using that term.
Oh, I'd actually take that bet as I suspect you are right. Novel fads can be twisted to nefarious ends. My only point is this concept is alive in the corporate world and is used in a "non-snowflake" agenda. That is all.
Cheers,
Mark
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 06:14:13 PM
Quote from: S'mon on November 15, 2022, 06:05:54 PM
Quote from: nielspeterdejong on November 15, 2022, 05:53:45 PM
It was the last system that Gary Gygax influenced (he didn't produce it, but he heavily adviced the creators), and he mentioned himself that he loved how realistic it was compared to his own D&D 2nd edition.
I remember conversing with Gary Gygax on EN World re the 3e adventure Lost City of Gaxmoor (written by his sons, I'd been running it); he did not express a high opinion of the edition.
Gygax was not involved with AD&D 2e, which came after he had been ousted from TSR.
Truly? I recall him messaging about 3rd edition: "Gary Gygax, author of the original Dungeon Masters Guide (1e) (1979), emailed Monte Cook to express his joy at its third edition counterpart, which taught him a few things about being a Dungeon Master.[3]" https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_3rd_edition
What changed? And I do recall that the team that worked on 3rd edition was noted by him as being very respectful and often asking him for advice.
I believe that was about the 3E DMG, not the game itself.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on November 13, 2022, 09:34:57 PM
Regardless of what they mean by those two words, this is where they officially lose me. Woke Kommissars.
It really shouldn't be any kind of surprise at this point. They've been steadily moving this way for years. They've already had complaints about their "sensitivity readers" not being sensitive enough. I just wrote it off to "well, that's who lives in Seattle". But maps? Maps have to go through multiple reviews for being appropriate?
If there's anything you wanted to pick up in the pdf catalog over at DMsGuild.com, get it now.
I am an avid non-woke Pathfinder 1st edition, Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition, and Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition player. Which content on DMsGuild would you recommend I'd get? I don't mind spending a bit on good stuff. By your words, I take it that you fear they will alter existing content?
I'm sure they will only change 5e+ content; I can't see them going back to bowdlerize stuff from eg 1e, or even 3e and 4e. More likely they'd pull old stuff from sale completely.
Quote from: tenbones on November 15, 2022, 02:49:46 PM
That's the whole point - they know their creative team is bankrupt. Going to D&D One's virtual model means the playerbase will create their own content... limited to the parameters of their application.
Why be creative when they can just cage the peasants in and provide them with the basic cardboard and water for them to churn out that easy-to-make gruel?
Graduates from the White Wolf school of game 'design'.
Quote from: Omega on November 16, 2022, 10:41:02 AM
Quote from: tenbones on November 15, 2022, 02:49:46 PM
That's the whole point - they know their creative team is bankrupt. Going to D&D One's virtual model means the playerbase will create their own content... limited to the parameters of their application.
Why be creative when they can just cage the peasants in and provide them with the basic cardboard and water for them to churn out that easy-to-make gruel?
Graduates from the White Wolf school of game 'design'.
Paradox has even applied to this formula to video games now, but even worse somehow. You can use their IP in your personal project you publish to itch.io, but subject to a bunch of restrictions like: you must adhere to the most recent iteration of canon (despite the changes being extremely controversial among fans), you can't use any canon characters (even tho that's pretty much the only thing fans like to discuss), you can't advertise your game as using their IP (so you don't actually benefit from the brand name recognition that would justify using the license in the first place), you have to pay a percentage of your profits as royalties, you can't invent
any original ideas even if you can make them unobtrusively fit into canon, you can only make games about vampires and hunters at present because those are the only ones with rulebooks out yet, etc.
At this point, you're better off just inventing your own IP. There's absolutely nothing about Paradox's IP that would justify subjecting yourself to all these ridiculous self-sabotaging restrictions. You can very easily file off the serial numbers in a genre like urban fantasy because of all the public domain resources you can draw on. Just look at
Bloodlust: Shadowhunter for an example: it feels sort of like a
Bloodlines rip-off but uses an entirely original (albeit derivative) setting that Paradox doesn't seem to be able to sue out of existence.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 02:29:23 PMParadox has even applied to this formula to video games now, but even worse somehow. You can use their IP in your personal project you publish to itch.io, but subject to a bunch of restrictions like: you must adhere to the most recent iteration of canon (despite the changes being extremely controversial among fans), you can't use any canon characters (even tho that's pretty much the only thing fans like to discuss), you can't advertise your game as using their IP (so you don't actually benefit from the brand name recognition that would justify using the license in the first place), you have to pay a percentage of your profits as royalties, you can't invent any original ideas even if you can make them unobtrusively fit into canon, you can only make games about vampires and hunters at present because those are the only ones with rulebooks out yet, etc.
Don't they make 4X/ simulator games? What do they have to do with Rulebooks and Vampires? Just because of their single bloodlines game?
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 16, 2022, 05:27:43 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 02:29:23 PMParadox has even applied to this formula to video games now, but even worse somehow. You can use their IP in your personal project you publish to itch.io, but subject to a bunch of restrictions like: you must adhere to the most recent iteration of canon (despite the changes being extremely controversial among fans), you can't use any canon characters (even tho that's pretty much the only thing fans like to discuss), you can't advertise your game as using their IP (so you don't actually benefit from the brand name recognition that would justify using the license in the first place), you have to pay a percentage of your profits as royalties, you can't invent any original ideas even if you can make them unobtrusively fit into canon, you can only make games about vampires and hunters at present because those are the only ones with rulebooks out yet, etc.
Don't they make 4X/ simulator games? What do they have to do with Rulebooks and Vampires? Just because of their single bloodlines game?
Yup. They bought White Wolf (which by this point is a shell company for their IPs) from CCP for millions just to make Bloodlines 2, and licensed the IP to other devs even more than GW licenses 40k. They even publicly entertained television spin-offs. It's all spectacularly backfired as the games have been generally mediocre, BL2 has been in development hell for years, and the tabletop revisions have torn the ttrpg fandom apart.
I have no clue why they thought it was a good idea to drop millions just to make a sequel to a cult classic crpg that they couldn't hope to replicate. They make 4X games.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 06:35:43 PMYup. They bought White Wolf (which by this point is a shell company for their IPs) from CCP for millions just to make Bloodlines 2, and licensed the IP to other devs even more than GW licenses 40k.
There are more games then just Bloodlines?
Jeez. I didn't even known.
Even Pathfinder has had more success with videogames....I mean its 2 for 2 successful games, but that's more then bloodlines.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 16, 2022, 07:29:03 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 06:35:43 PMYup. They bought White Wolf (which by this point is a shell company for their IPs) from CCP for millions just to make Bloodlines 2, and licensed the IP to other devs even more than GW licenses 40k.
There are more games then just Bloodlines?
Jeez. I didn't even known.
Even Pathfinder has had more success with videogames....I mean its 2 for 2 successful games, but that's more then bloodlines.
There was a Vampire: Redemption and a Hunter console game back in the early 2000s. Since 2017 Paradox has licensed out about a dozen new video games so far, mostly cheaply made text games. No real crpgs. These games have been generally mediocre.
The writing is pretentious af and lacks the tongue-in-cheek charm of Mitsoda's writing. If Paradox wanted to cash in on BL's cult success, then they're not trying to recapture the magic at all. They're setting themselves up for failure.
I'm pretty sure a single PF game has a larger budget than all of the Paradox games combined.
Quote from: Effete on November 11, 2022, 01:14:21 AM
That's great news for me!
I just started a consultant firm that instructs gaming companies how to treat white, European cultures with the care and respect it deserves. Eagerly anticipating a phone call... ...
(https://media.tenor.com/-Ad-RtYe1JkAAAAd/based-uh-hello-based-department.gif)
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 09:38:18 PMI'm pretty sure a single PF game has a larger budget than all of the Paradox games combined.
Wow. What's interesting is that the PF game was supposed to be an MMO but that fell through but they salvaged it into a functional CRPG. Which did well enough to get DLC, a sequel, and DLC for that sequel.
So the fact that Paizo knows how to leverage their properties better then Paradox is really something.
Quote from: thedungeondelver on November 12, 2022, 02:26:54 PM
Man, I play 1e AD&D and occasionally OD&D because they're cool. I can't fathom anyone finding enjoyment from 3e forward. And yeah, I've played 3e, 3.5e, 5e, too. I playtested the latter. But the awful awful corporate culture now, just shitting up the game? No way, Wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole.
Ironically, smacking it with a 10-foot pole will reveal the pit trap for what it is.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on November 17, 2022, 12:56:40 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 09:38:18 PMI'm pretty sure a single PF game has a larger budget than all of the Paradox games combined.
Wow. What's interesting is that the PF game was supposed to be an MMO but that fell through but they salvaged it into a functional CRPG. Which did well enough to get DLC, a sequel, and DLC for that sequel.
So the fact that Paizo knows how to leverage their properties better then Paradox is really something.
Perhaps. I don't have a business degree.
Medieval fantasy crpgs are a proven formula. Paizo simply needed to pick devs that were basically competent at their jobs.
There isn't a proven formula for "magic hidden in the modern world" beyond the Harry Potter games. For whatever reason it's just never been a popular genre for video games. Business like Paradox seem to flounder without a forerunner to imitate
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on November 11, 2022, 06:17:24 AM
"While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,
Cognitively diverse?
Does that mean WotC has some employees who aren't drooling degenerate morons?
That would be a surprise.
The changes to the #Hadozee were so specific and unnecessary that I'm all but convinced it was done to deliberately manufacture the need for these jobs. However with #Hasbro's financials in the toilet I'm not sure how long these jobs will last.
Quote from: Zelen on November 14, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
My former job had a presentation just a few months ago on this issue.
One of the key examples the woman presenter gave was about herself. She claimed to be dyslexic, and described the challenge of being dyslexic in her corporate HR email job, and how employers benefited from her "cognitive diversity" even if she takes longer to write an email and makes amateurish spelling errors.
Another example the woman presenter gave was (of course) about herself. She claimed to have a condition which caused her to perceive time differently. According to her, this is an issue that can lead to butting heads because people with this cognitive difference have trouble meeting deadlines. She encouraged managers to offer empathy and compassion, and suggested spreading out the workload among other employees if tasks weren't being completed on time.
This is the type of thing that you're much more likely to see at WOTC, under the banner of "cognitive diversity." The Theater-Kid Theocracy they're building is actively hostile to the kind of mathematical, impersonal Aspergers type that just wants to design the perfect system.
Indeed, and being able to spell and meet deadlines are kinda core competencies of corporate HR email.
My local #HomeDepo hires the 'cognitively diverse', and there's plenty of tasks for them to do there. However some of them 'work' the self-checkout, which is an unnecessary waste of everyone's time. I'm all for giving these folks opportunities, but not at the cost of productivity, especially my own. I blame my autism.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 14, 2022, 03:21:14 PM
Here's a quote from that article (https://mythcreants.com/blog/ridding-your-monsters-of-ableism/) I mentioned a couple pages back:
QuoteLimited Mobility: Key words to notice include "shambling," "shuffling," "lurching," "lumbering," "limping," "hobbling," and "stumbling." Also watch for body parts that are dragged along as the monster moves.
Congratulations. You've just claimed that zombies are ableist because they shamble.
That site has always been particularly insufferable.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 02:29:23 PM
Paradox has even applied to this formula to video games now, but even worse somehow. You can use their IP in your personal project you publish to itch.io, but subject to a bunch of restrictions like: you must adhere to the most recent iteration of canon (despite the changes being extremely controversial among fans), you can't use any canon characters (even tho that's pretty much the only thing fans like to discuss), you can't advertise your game as using their IP (so you don't actually benefit from the brand name recognition that would justify using the license in the first place), you have to pay a percentage of your profits as royalties, you can't invent any original ideas even if you can make them unobtrusively fit into canon, you can only make games about vampires and hunters at present because those are the only ones with rulebooks out yet, etc.
At this point, you're better off just inventing your own IP. There's absolutely nothing about Paradox's IP that would justify subjecting yourself to all these ridiculous self-sabotaging restrictions. You can very easily file off the serial numbers in a genre like urban fantasy because of all the public domain resources you can draw on. Just look at Bloodlust: Shadowhunter for an example: it feels sort of like a Bloodlines rip-off but uses an entirely original (albeit derivative) setting that Paradox doesn't seem to be able to sue out of existence.
The IP is effectively worthless at this point. The brand recognition carries no weight and the premise has nothing unique enough to be worth adopting anymore. They've made hunters, vampires, and werewolves as generic as possible. It's a shame #OnyxPath didn't get ahold of it.
Nonsense. We need MORE Sensitivity Consultants.
Too much is never enough. There are people dying out there. And there are marginalized goblinoids being killed at the table and in the minds of the Wokescolds. Most consulting is clearly needed.
Let the fires burn!
Got my account reactivated after a self-imposed sabbatical just to reply with LOFUCKINGL...
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on November 28, 2022, 06:10:33 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 16, 2022, 02:29:23 PM
Paradox has even applied to this formula to video games now, but even worse somehow. You can use their IP in your personal project you publish to itch.io, but subject to a bunch of restrictions like: you must adhere to the most recent iteration of canon (despite the changes being extremely controversial among fans), you can't use any canon characters (even tho that's pretty much the only thing fans like to discuss), you can't advertise your game as using their IP (so you don't actually benefit from the brand name recognition that would justify using the license in the first place), you have to pay a percentage of your profits as royalties, you can't invent any original ideas even if you can make them unobtrusively fit into canon, you can only make games about vampires and hunters at present because those are the only ones with rulebooks out yet, etc.
At this point, you're better off just inventing your own IP. There's absolutely nothing about Paradox's IP that would justify subjecting yourself to all these ridiculous self-sabotaging restrictions. You can very easily file off the serial numbers in a genre like urban fantasy because of all the public domain resources you can draw on. Just look at Bloodlust: Shadowhunter for an example: it feels sort of like a Bloodlines rip-off but uses an entirely original (albeit derivative) setting that Paradox doesn't seem to be able to sue out of existence.
The IP is effectively worthless at this point. The brand recognition carries no weight and the premise has nothing unique enough to be worth adopting anymore. They've made hunters, vampires, and werewolves as generic as possible. It's a shame #OnyxPath didn't get ahold of it.
How is #OnyxPath's output any better? Vigil and Lost are interesting, sure, but the fandom is a dumpster fire where WoD and CoD fans hate each other.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:35:05 AM
Cognitively diverse?
Does that mean WotC has some employees who aren't drooling degenerate morons?
That would be a surprise.
This board needs a proper way to +1 a brilliant comment.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on November 29, 2022, 01:30:42 PM
How is #OnyxPath's output any better? Vigil and Lost are interesting, sure, but the fandom is a dumpster fire where WoD and CoD fans hate each other.
All fandoms are dumpster fires, and I give no fucks beyond the quality of the writing and my personal playgroups. Anything else leads to mental illness.