So, as part of the Essentials overhaul of some of the original 4E classes, WOTC posted the revised version of the Cleric (the Templar) this week - and the official forums went bat$hit! What the hell? Don't the CRPG/MMORPG companies do this all the time to rebalance and clean up things?
I'm even seeing posts that WOTC has 'ruined the game'. Are the idiots shouting that loudly or does the typical 4E D&D fan really have this much 'investment' in the game?
2/10
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;459312Don't the CRPG/MMORPG companies do this all the time to rebalance and clean up things?
Yep. And people who play those go batshit in response.
QuoteI'm even seeing posts that WOTC has 'ruined the game'. Are the idiots shouting that loudly or does the typical 4E D&D fan really have this much 'investment' in the game?
I'd lean toward "idiots."
WoW, that is some Epic butthurt.
What are the objective changes? Any links for the Insider-challenged?
Edit: Behold: the full write-up (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/399_CC_Cleric.pdf) or changes to the PHB only (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CC_Cleric_Addendum.pdf). No subscription necessary.
Quote from: The Butcher;459322changes to the PHB only (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CC_Cleric_Addendum.pdf).
That
is unforgivable. [Edit.] And, as pointed out on the WotC fora, that type of class overhaul puts even the 3.0-->3.5 class revisions in the shade.
I would give the Paizo developers a big wet kiss on the lips if they would provide the full spell casters in 3.x Caster Edition with that systemic of a nerf.
Am I missing something here, or did they mostly just adjust the numerical effect of some of the abilities?
It seems like a total redo of the Cleric to make it like the Essentials versions. I would have to compare it to the actual Essentials Cleric but that's too much effort for me today. Last 2 pages of the full PDF list a lot of modifications to the powers though.
Quote from: Cole;459329Am I missing something here, or did they mostly just adjust the numerical effect of some of the abilities?
I don't know 4e, but if you look, every thing they changed where the old number is posted is 1/2 to 2/3 lower. I don't know that the other numbers are actually lower, but considering how much the other ones dropped, I wouldn't be surprised.
Don't mind me, I'm just warming the cockles of my heart by WotC's burning bridges. :)
Quote from: Cole;459329Am I missing something here, or did they mostly just adjust the numerical effect of some of the abilities?
Nope, you got it right.
Maybe it's a design objective at WotC to reward "system mastery" by creating a Talmudic corpus of errata which can only be navigated by the hardcore. Have a functional connection between left and right hemispheres? We don't want your damn business!!!
Quote from: The_Shadow;459339Maybe it's a design objective at WotC to reward "system mastery" by creating a Talmudic corpus of errata which can only be navigated by the hardcore. Have a functional connection between left and right hemispheres? We don't want your damn business!!!
Bartok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartok_%28card_game%29) the rpg...
If they're going to go with the Boss Raids/Phat Lootz organized play, specifically driven to reward twinks, they have to make sure everything is exactly right. They won't know you the true elite plays are unless it's exactly right. Quit hassling them--they just want it exactly right!!
My understanding is that if you don't sign a loyalty oath and swear to use the new version, you will be hauled out of your bed in the dead of night by a platoon of male tiefling stripper ninjas and shipped off for medical experiments.
Also, they will sodomize your pets.
Seriously, changing damage from d10 to d8 for Turn Undead. Really??!!
Quote from: Aos;459364My understanding is that if you don't sign a loyalty oath and swear to use the new version, you will be hauled out of your bed in the dead of night by a platoon of male tiefling stripper ninjas and shipped off for medical experiments.
Also, they will sodomize your pets.
Incorrect. Mike Mearls personally urinates on your loved ones while you watch, helplessly.
(Unless you're into that sort of thing. In that case, they go with what you said.)
Quote from: Aos;459364Also, they will sodomize your pets.
That was last year.
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/1141831722_DQVjy-L.jpg)
Quote from: misterguignol;459367Incorrect. Mike Mearls personally urinates on your loved ones while you watch, helplessly.
No, dude, that was just for Essentials.
Quote from: misterguignol;459367Incorrect. Mike Mearls personally urinates on your loved ones while you watch, helplessly.
(Unless you're into that sort of thing. In that case, they go with what you said.)
In all fairness, they had planned to do that before Essentials was released.
Goddamn you Cole.
Quote from: Aos;459364My understanding is that if you don't sign a loyalty oath and swear to use the new version, you will be hauled out of your bed in the dead of night by a platoon of male tiefling stripper ninjas and shipped off for medical experiments.
Also, they will sodomize your pets.
You joke, but WotC automatically updates their character creator and online tools to reflect the rules changes.
If you're someone who uses such tools, rule changes like this actually are more or less mandatory, especially now that it's all web-based rather than relying on a software update that could potentially be ignored.
Basically, they've finally found a system where the designer really has about as close to an MMO's level of control on the game rules as possible.
Great for organized play, mixed-bag for home-campaign play.
Quote from: J Arcane;459396You joke, but WotC automatically updates their character creator and online tools to reflect the rules changes.
If you're someone who uses such tools, rule changes like this actually are more or less mandatory, especially now that it's all web-based rather than relying on a software update that could potentially be ignored.
Basically, they've finally found a system where the designer really has about as close to an MMO's level of control on the game rules as possible.
It is a pain in the ass, I admit.
To me, this shows one of the inherent issues with 4E and the constant rewriting of aspects of the game. If I ran 4E again, I'd just use the books as printed instead of incorporating the separate body of errata (which isn't errata so much as revised playtesting or total rewrite).
Quote from: The_Shadow;459339Maybe it's a design objective at WotC to reward "system mastery" by creating a Talmudic corpus of errata which can only be navigated by the hardcore. Have a functional connection between left and right hemispheres? We don't want your damn business!!!
If I was cynical, I'd point out that this sort of errata essentially renders published books obsolete and makes it necessary to subscribe to their digital services if you want to use the "official" or "correct" or "current" version of the rules.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;459411If I was cynical, I'd point out that this sort of errata essentially renders published books obsolete and makes it necessary to subscribe to their digital services if you want to use the "official" or "correct" or "current" version of the rules.
I recommend the cynicism. WOTC's looking to monetize D&D in ways heretofore unthinkable. Aping WOW didn't stop with the ruleset, apparently.
This thread is worthless without quotes. Just saying. ;)
At this point, is there really any purpose to a 4e rulebook? Anything you get can be changed at any time. I guess the monsters stay the same, but all character info is practically useless if you want to "stay current".
BTW, so much for the theory that Essentials wasn't heralding a change to the entire line that would culminate in changes so severe that it would be better described as 4.5e or 5e. :D
All I can do is laugh at this. The failure of WOTC to understand the basic differences between the MMO and P&P format for game content continues to amaze and amuse at the same time.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;459411If I was cynical, I'd point out that this sort of errata essentially renders published books obsolete and makes it necessary to subscribe to their digital services if you want to use the "official" or "correct" or "current" version of the rules.
I don't think being cynical has anything to do with it. That's exactly what the online stuff is for: players get up-to-date gameplay, WotC get subscription revenues and can see exactly what material is actually getting used in play, everyone (In theory) should be happy... and WotC should be making a good return on it's investment, which is the end goal for them.
Quote from: J Arcane;459396You joke, but WotC automatically updates their character creator and online tools to reflect the rules changes.
If you're someone who uses such tools, rule changes like this actually are more or less mandatory, especially now that it's all web-based rather than relying on a software update that could potentially be ignored.
Basically, they've finally found a system where the designer really has about as close to an MMO's level of control on the game rules as possible.
Which is precisely the reason I stopped updating my character builder last July and dropped my subscription - my players absolutely, positively do not want their powers to randomly change in effect.
I had to stop because of the damn magic missile fiasco. But that was nothing compared to the shitstorm I would have had over this change.
Had my group actually been using the current online character builder and forced to switch to the new powers, it would have instantly killed my campaign full stop. There is no way in hell my cleric player would agree to those changes, and I refuse to try and keep multiple versions of rules active at the same time.
Fortunately, we have the perfect emoticon for this moment.
:teehee:
Speaking of Penny Arcade, the 4E rules "patch" reminds me of this:
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215534904_gcGiH-L-2.jpg)
Quote from: CRKrueger;459427I guess the monsters stay the same, but all character info is practically useless if you want to "stay current".
Actually, some monsters from the Monster Manuals changed with the publication of the Monster Vault.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;459440All I can do is laugh at this. The failure of WOTC to understand the basic differences between the MMO and P&P format for game content continues to amaze and amuse at the same time.
yeah. The idea that rulesets can have some level of 'toolkit' applicability, to mesh with a setting, instead of a total overkill RAW, that will literally trasnfiorm characters in the middle of an adventure?
Go figure.
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;459312I'm even seeing posts that WOTC has 'ruined the game'.
Maybe they are catching up. The time needed for a 4E fan is about right.
BTW, I glanced at the .PDF and I found this:
"Why This Is the Class for You: You like playing a character who helps other
characters to fight their best, using your magic to aid their attacks and heal
their injuries."...But I was unable to find the rules about why one shouldn't hold his ice-cream upside down. Are those elsewhere?
The total malleability of rules is not some new, out of the blue development: it is the product of a design mindset that has now been around for some time, one that considers any single element of the game interchangable and devoid of intristic value.
Quote from: J Arcane;459396You joke, but WotC automatically updates their character creator and online tools to reflect the rules changes.
If you're someone who uses such tools, rule changes like this actually are more or less mandatory, especially now that it's all web-based rather than relying on a software update that could potentially be ignored.
Basically, they've finally found a system where the designer really has about as close to an MMO's level of control on the game rules as possible.
It seems like WotC is taking this approach for the 4E themes, by making them mostly online-only at this point. (4E themes are like Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies, but are chosen at level 1).
More generally they're probably betting on enough D&D players paying monthly subscriptions, for the online character generator stuff which is not published at all in paper books.
If it comes down to the point where the online DDI revenue is significantly larger than the D&D book sales revenue, I wouldn't be surprised to see them reducing (or even ceasing) publication of future crunch heavy D&D books (ie. player's options, power, etc ... type books) beyond the core rulebooks.
Quote from: LordVreeg;459456yeah. The idea that rulesets can have some level of 'toolkit' applicability, to mesh with a setting, instead of a total overkill RAW, that will literally transform characters in the middle of an adventure?
WotC will just attribute it to continual hiccups from the Spellplague in the 4E Forgotten Realms. ;)
Yeah, the only objectively "bad" thing about this I can see is that the changes appear in the online character generator, which forces you to update if you make use of that. Also if you play in Encounters, but that is a per-adventure game anyway, rather than an ongoing campaign, right?
If you don't use the character creator app, I don't see why this would effect ongoing campaigns. I thought the entire point of the freely released "essentialized" builds of the PHB 1 classes was because the fans were demanding it, and it was nice of Wizards to release them online rather than push out another book like they were planning to originally. And from what I hear from the 4e players, pre-Essential character classes can mix easily with Essential character classes in the same game. In other words, these class build remakes are only for the Essentials-only crowd, instead of the fans who have been around since the beginning and still want to use their PHB1. Still a shame about the character creator, though.
Quote from: Aos;4593132/10
What's D&D?
Quote from: LordVreeg;459456yeah. The idea that rulesets can have some level of 'toolkit' applicability, to mesh with a setting, instead of a total overkill RAW, that will literally trasnfiorm characters in the middle of an adventure?
I say they're not going far enough. They should make a software ruleset that changes every time you load it, and at random, throughout play. Basically the tabletop RPG equivalent of Calvinball.
Oops, your only fighter just turned into a bard mid-combat and is singing a song about you getting your ass kicked! Now what, dork?
Quote from: CRKrueger;459427At this point, is there really any purpose to a 4e rulebook? Anything you get can be changed at any time. I guess the monsters stay the same, but all character info is practically useless if you want to "stay current".
Presumably they can make their money off of Insider. Buying the books does seem like a sucker's game at this point, unless it's an adventure or something like that.
Quote from: CRKrueger;459427BTW, so much for the theory that Essentials wasn't heralding a change to the entire line that would culminate in changes so severe that it would be better described as 4.5e or 5e. :D
The changes mostly seem to be so picayune that I would have a hard time calling them "severe." I guess you need to have your classes updated to the new versions for organized play but they were making little changes pre-essentials too. Errata is constant. Makes them money, I imagine. But then it also makes Insider seem like a sucker's game too.
Maybe the best solution for a lot of players would be to just pick a version of 4e as your house rules and stick with it, per Jgants. But the builder being online and the autoupdate makes that a pain, too, per J Arcane. Making 4e characters isn't quite a HERO level of busy-work, but I still wouldn't really want to do that without an app.
For organized play, a serial approach to updates and content can work. Have one "core" rulebook for DMs and players (like the little essentials books sort of act as), and then have everything else be digitally distributed to customers through a service, with printouts and everything. I do not mind this, if the main goal is organized play, but even then, games that flourish in OP usually are standardized and rarely change (chess, holdem' poker).
But this sort of thing actively wrecks the sort of tight-knit, "I know what you're talking about" communities that make it easy to find a game of, say, Dark Heresy. It had it's share of errata, but the game is pretty-much the same and when I transfer from one campaign to another, it's not going to really be that much of a hassle.
Now, with these printed hardcover books, Essentials options, and continual class-tweaking, it's going to be much harder to find a "common ground." Now, instead of just saying "Hey, want to play some 4e", anytime I try to organize a game, I'll have to specify what format and updates I'm using. It's a lot more difficult to negotiate than saying "core only", because there are so many changes spread throughout, and anyone who actually cares about the mechanical component of the game (which is a lot, if my experience with d20 and 4e players is any indication) is going to want to know which version of what class and what specific updates are or are not being implemented in a given game. People on other sites can say "It's not a big deal!", but yes, it is, to a lot of players, especially if the changes effect one of their favorite classes.
I don't know. I just don't see how this model can work for a gametype that usually spans many, many sessions. It may work for "encounter" format play, or "raids", or whatever, but it's absolutely at odds with long-term play.
There are two issues here.
The first issue is about the extent and quantative frequency of the errata - which is inherently laughable and ridiculous.
But the second, and to my mind, way more offensive issue is the blatant
lack of rationale behind these changes. It's not as if even a majority of the cleric updates were well meant nerfs, to rebalance issues that come up in organized play. No, right now CharOp people and even die hard 4E defenders like thecasualoblivion (who's stopped posting on these boards long ago) go apeship because it's blatant that these errata have no design rationale at all any longer.
Which is why I drag out the one post that, to my mind, best explains the
thinking behind WotC' errata policy.
QuoteI personally hate the idea of *having* to go to a computer in order to play an RPG, ala D&D's character generator. I would have been a lot more happy if they had released 4.25 or whatever which incorporated all of the giant mess of errata into a new printing, which is sort of what 3.5 felt like.
And even then you're only looking at character classes, equipment, and spells/powers. Anything that the player doesn't directly use can't be auto-errata'd in a character generator, and we've already seen massive, drastic errata to monsters and other bits for the GM.
Not to mention that 4th ed isn't/wasn't actually working towards any particular point. They had settled on the Blizzard/WoW method of "balance", where classes ride the power wave crest, then get nerfed, and then get a power boost somewhere down the line. Instead of having a point they were moving towards, they got into this weird cycle, where you judge the balance as a function of time & errata rather than any current point of the game, creating these weird wave function quantum balance clouds where over the course of time you'll see balance within a certain area, but at any given point it's difficult to chart actual progress.
That's a horrible way to design & maintain a game that is based on dead tree books. I have a gut feeling that if D&D had just said "fuck it" and went entirely paperless, and completely online, it might have fared a hell of a lot better. I probably would have given it a little more leeway in that case.
In FFG's errata-crazy orgies, I will say that in most of the 40k games, you see corrections and minor adjustments here and there (dozens upon dozens of them), but they are literally errata. There's no major revision of paradigm, no drastic power shifts that create, exult, and then destroy entire classes of character builds, and no weekly/monthly change to dread.
source (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=192107&sid=1848e247cb2d88dca29159ba58a41b73#192107)
Or this comparison (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/27635949/who_is_responsible_for_what_happened_to_the_cleric?pg=2) from the Wizards posts sums up the psychology behind the current cleric nerf perfectly:
QuoteThe ramifications are rather disgusting. I've seen where this road leads, as has anyone else who played Warlock in WoW. Where it leads is that which I shall here dub the Seed of Corruption Effect.
I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the steady stream of nerfs the Warlock class received were warranted. The point is that they received them, unceasingly, for years on end. Needless to say, fans of the Warlock were severely demoralized by this treatment. So much so that when the spell Seed of Corruption arrived with the Burning Crusade expansion, the entirety of Warlockdom reacted with one deafening outcry:
"SHHHH!"
The few conversations that cropped up in the forums before everyone got on the same page invariably went exactly as follows: "HOLY CRAP, SEED OF CORRUPTION IS AWES--" "SHHH!" "But it actually gives us AoE capab--" "SHHH!" "It's unique and Warlock-flavored while still letting us finally compete with Mages' area-of-eff--" "DUDE! We know! Shut up or they'll hear you!"
You'd have to have been there to really see it, but it was downright eerie how this one ability utterly vanished from the radar of otherwise-vociferous gamer babble. I wouldn't have believed that so contentious and uncooperative a group as the posters on a gaming forum could operate in such absolutely unanimous and unbroken agreement, but there it was. A certain subset of WoW's playerbase had been slapped so hard so often that not only had it grown to expect and accept each new round of punishment, it had developed the purely instinctual reaction that if it should somehow be given something good, it had better not let on that it was good otherwise it would surely be taken away.
In light of that, you'll have to forgive me for twitching when I see the beginnings of that same notion stirring here. I prefer a company/consumer dynamic which is open, earnest, and compassionate. Glimpsing the brief flicker of one which instead induces in its playerbase a psychology reminiscent of an abused child doesn't make me feel good at all about where D&D's 'new direction' is taking us.
Quote from: Windjammer;459472Instead of having a point they were moving towards, they got into this weird cycle, where you judge the balance as a function of time & errata rather than any current point of the game, creating these weird wave function quantum balance clouds where over the course of time you'll see balance within a certain area, but at any given point it's difficult to chart actual progress.
I can't help but view it as an essentially naked money-funneling tactic. Obviously WOTC/Hasbro are operating a business for profit, but "now with more profit!" doesn't really motivate me to spend my money that way, either.
Quote from: Cole;459476I can't help but view it as an essentially naked money-funneling tactic. Obviously WOTC/Hasbro are operating a business for profit, but "now with more profit!" doesn't really motivate me to spend my money that way, either.
Seems like it.
I'm glad I stopped buying any 4E D&D books, with the introduction of 4E Essentials. I picked up the first two 4E Essentials books (Rules Compendium, and Heroes of the Fallen Lands), only because I was sometimes DMing the 4E Encounters game at a nearby gaming store. If I didn't play 4E Encounters back in September->December 2010, I wouldn't have purchased any 4E Essentials books.
Well the updates are mostly free...so I'm not sure how it's a money-making tactic.
Quote from: Peregrin;459469I don't know. I just don't see how this model can work for a gametype that usually spans many, many sessions. It may work for "encounter" format play, or "raids", or whatever, but it's absolutely at odds with long-term play.
Wait, you play 4e outside of encounters? :eek:
I only own two books past the core (The DS books) but i stopped buying when i realized I'd need at least one more book to use the two new books I'd just bought. If i want them I'll pick them up for nothing when 5e comes out. I find all the hate funny though, especially when it comes from people who aren't playing the game.
Beyond that, what kind of jerkoff plays a cleric anyway? That's like playing The Rolling Stones RPG and deciding to be Ronnie Wood.
Quote from: Peregrin;459482Well the updates are mostly free...so I'm not sure how it's a money-making tactic.
I am of the opinion that trying to manage updates outside of the pay subscription model is a clusterfuck. But no, clearly you're right, their intent is pure professional dedication.
Quote from: Aos;459485I only own two books past the core (The DS books) but i stopped buying when i realized I'd need at least one more book to use the two new books I'd just bought. If i want them I'll pick them up for nothing when 5e comes out. I find all the hate funny though, especially when it comes from people who aren't playing the game.
I am not much of a 4e fan, but I don't think of myself as a dedicated hater - I do play in a local 4e game. But I never updated to the online builder and I'm not interested in making sure my dumbass character is up-to-version. I figure if I get kicked out of the game for having an unerratted PC, I should take it as a sign from Gary beyond the grave.
Quote from: Aos;459485Beyond that, what kind of jerkoff plays a cleric anyway? That's like playing The Rolling Stones RPG and deciding to be Ronnie Wood.
Brian Jones is dead and there's permadeath in the stones RPG. Who wants to be Darryl?
Quote from: Cole;459493I am not much of a 4e fan, but I don't think of myself as a dedicated hater - I do play in a local 4e game. But I never updated to the online builder and I'm not interested in making sure my dumbass character is up-to-version. I figure if I get kicked out of the game for having an unerratted PC, I should take it as a sign from Gary beyond the grave.
Brian Jones is dead and there's permadeath in the stones RPG. Who wants to be Darryl?
The guy who just has to play a halfling every time.
Quote from: Cole;459493I do play in a local 4e game.
As do I, and so do, I presume, a lot of people in the Wizards thread.
You know i feel for people whose games are getting fucked by this, really, but from the sidelines it's just another in a long line of hysterical outbursts.
Quote from: Windjammer;459472But the second, and to my mind, way more offensive issue is the blatant lack of rationale behind these changes. It's not as if even a majority of the cleric updates were well meant nerfs, to rebalance issues that come up in organized play. No, right now CharOp people and even die hard 4E defenders like thecasualoblivion (who's stopped posting on these boards long ago) go apeship because it's blatant that these errata have no design rationale at all any longer.
CharOP being used as unpaid playtesters? :rolleyes:
Quote from: Aos;459495The guy who just has to play a halfling every time.
He must just look taller on TV.
Quote from: Peregrin;459469I don't know. I just don't see how this model can work for a gametype that usually spans many, many sessions. It may work for "encounter" format play, or "raids", or whatever, but it's absolutely at odds with long-term play.
It hasn't caused any trouble for my 4e campaign. The players stopped using their books long ago, and don't care when their characters get errata when they level up with the character builder (maybe because leveling up is already an arbitrary character transformation that makes no sense in the game world.) Sometimes they're even glad the errata happened.
They wouldn't know about the internet uproar at all if I didn't tell them about it.
Quote from: Cole;459507He must just look taller on TV.
For some reason, I was thinking of Charlie Watts when I answered that.
Quote from: Aos;459518For some reason, I was thinking of Charlie Watts when I answered that.
0/10
Quote from: Cole;4595190/10
it burns.
(the reason if course is I could only remember three of their names, so I just guessed Daryl was the drummer)
It's good to be me. My subscription expired last year, and I've still got the old offline Character Builder, which I am allowed to keep without subscription and which works just fine. If I get into a situation where I have to pick one version of the rules, just before Essentials is a fine spot (despite the fact that I actually like Essentials). If I absolutely need the latest updates to create a PC, I can easily make that PC with pencil and index cards - it's only a clusterfuck if you are trying to create a whole party on the same day.
Quote from: Aos;459485I only own two books past the core (The DS books) but i stopped buying when i realized I'd need at least one more book to use the two new books I'd just bought. If i want them I'll pick them up for nothing when 5e comes out. I find all the hate funny though, especially when it comes from people who aren't playing the game.
It doesn't really affect me either, especially having basically sworn off D&D.
I posted in response to yours for 2 reasons:
1) "they're not forcing you to use it/just don't read it/etc." is a non-starter response and irritates the shit out of me, because it's nothing but an attempt to shut down conversation and has nothing to offer a conversation about the merits of the thing. It's fucking everywhere on the Internet, and it's never stopped being whiny, passive-aggressive bullshit.
2) In this case, it's not even actually true for many players, as I pointed out with the character creator issue. Now, I don't play the game, but I DO like digital tools for chargen, enough that I rarely made a character in 3.5 without it, and I actually spent $30 on Hero Lab for DCA. So if'n I did play, I'd be pretty fuckin' pissed right about now.
QuoteBeyond that, what kind of jerkoff plays a cleric anyway? That's like playing The Rolling Stones RPG and deciding to be Ronnie Wood.
This Jerkoff. Clerics rule, dude. What's so lame about playing the avatar of Divine Retribution?
Quote from: J Arcane;459522It doesn't really affect me either, especially having basically sworn off D&D.
I posted in response to yours for 2 reasons:
1) "they're not forcing you to use it/just don't read it/etc." is a non-starter response and irritates the shit out of me, because it's nothing but an attempt to shut down conversation and has nothing to offer a conversation about the merits of the thing. It's fucking everywhere on the Internet, and it's never stopped being whiny, passive-aggressive bullshit.
2) In this case, it's not even actually true for many players, as I pointed out with the character creator issue. Now, I don't play the game, but I DO like digital tools for chargen, enough that I rarely made a character in 3.5 without it, and I actually spent $30 on Hero Lab for DCA. So if'n I did play, I'd be pretty fuckin' pissed right about now.
This Jerkoff. Clerics rule, dude. What's so lame about playing the avatar of Divine Retribution?
You see, though, J. I can post whatever crazy wrong shit I want in this thread and it will still hit 500+ replies, so I don't really feel that I'm shutting down any conversation.
Quote from: Aos;459525You see, though, J. I can post whatever crazy wrong shit I want in this thread and it will still hit 500+ replies, so I don't really feel that I'm shutting down any conversation.
Oh, I know. Just like mine will only be read and responded to because it gives a further bulletpoint for attacking WOTC. It's how these things work, and why I usually stay out of them anymore.
I just can't resist any opportunity to be right. ;)
Quote from: ggroy;459460It seems like WotC is taking this approach for the 4E themes, by making them mostly online-only at this point.
I believe most new content will be online. The next book is in September.
Seanchai
Quote from: Esgaldil;459521It's good to be me. My subscription expired last year, and I've still got the old offline Character Builder, which I am allowed to keep without subscription and which works just fine.
This is where my group is at currently too: we've decided to use pre-Essentials 4e D&D and use the previous character builder with all updates until the last one before Essentials (August, I believe). Now that 4e Essentials has moved to this model, I doubt that I will be purchasing any more 4e D&D products.
Quote from: Esgaldil;459521It's good to be me. My subscription expired last year, and I've still got the old offline Character Builder, which I am allowed to keep without subscription and which works just fine.
This is what I do.
Quote from: Cole;459539This is what I do.
It's too bad they never made a mac version of this. I'd be all over it. As Buggy as the earlier versions were, the ICONS character program really changed my opinion of such things.
Quote from: Esgaldil;459521If I get into a situation where I have to pick one version of the rules, just before Essentials is a fine spot (despite the fact that I actually like Essentials).
If I was to start DMing a new 4E game, it would depend on the players and type of game.
For a shorter game (ie. evening one-shots, or a few sessions), I would be inclined to use the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium and Heroes of the Fallen Lands. If I was playing a longer term campaign with experienced players, I would probably use the 4E Heinsoo D&D era books up to August 2010.
Quote from: Drohem;459537This is where my group is at currently too: we've decided to use pre-Essentials 4e D&D and use the previous character builder with all updates until the last one before Essentials (August, I believe).
If I was to start a new 4E game using only the 4E Heinsoo era books, I will probably allow some post-August 2010 modified/errata'd stuff, if there are no major objections by the players. This could be stuff like:
- choices of ability score bonuses for particular races
- magic item rarity
- half damage on a miss for various wizard encounter powers
- magic missile always hits.