Are there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?
Before anyone posts it, Classic Traveller does have advancement, it just caps out fairly early at a maximum number of skills equal to Int plus Edu. It's in the self improvement section in, I think, Book 2.
So IMO the answer is no, which is a shame really.
Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?
O.k. I was with you until the "long-term campaign" part. So, you play a static character that never changes or just one that never advances?
I can;t think of one that does either so I will be interested to see what comes up.
Bill
Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?
Well, this would be pretty questionable, wouldn't it? If there was literally absolutely NO way for your characters to change over time, even though obviously part of emulation of just about any world is that people DO change over time.
If I recall correctly, I believe that Everway had no experience system. I could be wrong though.
RPGPundit
Say for instance you had a system where a character started as a hero/veteran, maybe able to gain temporary benefits that can get used up (action/fate/fortune/drama points) but didn't get any better than being a seasoned adventurer (so no supermen or demi-gods).
So instead of the gameplay being all about the levelling, skill aquisition it was about the other things you could acquire - money, power, reknown, a castle with a pleasant view.
Apart from ageing, and the reaction to it (I remember there came a point where my Classic Traveller character 'knew' he couldn't outrun the cops in any more chases) and the benefits of experiencing the world (rather than XPing it) - I don't think I'd miss getting beyond a certain skill level - I'm thinking characters like Sinbad.
Traveller is as far as it gets.
Quote from: BalbinusBefore anyone posts it, Classic Traveller does have advancement, it just caps out fairly early at a maximum number of skills equal to Int plus Edu. It's in the self improvement section in, I think, Book 2.
So IMO the answer is no, which is a shame really.
To be fair, any of those self-improvement schemes takes
four years to complete, and if you read them one way there's no way to learn a skill you are currently unskilled in unless you duck out of adventuring for four years. Granted, some of the other schemes let you get the benefits of them instantly (you need to see it through to make it permanent, though).
In other words, advancement in CT is so slow as to be glacial over the course of a campaign.
I can't think of any...
The closest example I can think of is Marvel Superheroes. You can save Karma and spend it either on modifying dice rolls, or if you eventually have enough bumping up a stat. Depending on how the game is run you might be using it up all the time and so never really have enough to bumping your stats. If you're playing "The Punisher" you're always losing all your Karma too... so advancement is not likely. :)
Quote from: SeanSay for instance you had a system where a character started as a hero/veteran, maybe able to gain temporary benefits that can get used up (action/fate/fortune/drama points) but didn't get any better than being a seasoned adventurer (so no supermen or demi-gods).
So instead of the gameplay being all about the levelling, skill aquisition it was about the other things you could acquire - money, power, reknown, a castle with a pleasant view.
In the pulp alt-1930s
Adventure! campaign that I just finished playing in (which ran for about four years), we started with better than the default power level to begin with. After that, I only spent XP on increasing my character's Background dots; e.g., Backing, Followers, Influence, and Reputation. His stats and skills didn't change at all through the course of the game, but his importance in the world certainly did. That being said, other PCs in the group, especially the more action-oriented ones, did spend their XP on improving themselves rather than their lot, because that's what worked best for them.
A few years ago, I played in a superheros game based on the old FASERIP Marvel rules. While some players spent their XP incrementally over the course of the campaign, I hoarded all of mine until the climactic battle with my character's arch-nemesis in the final session. At a suitably dramatic moment, I spent the whole load to boost his main power to the next level and defeated the bad guy, saving the City, etc., etc.
So if you want to play/run a game without 'character advancement' in the traditional sense (i.e., leveling up from farmboy-to-hero), I don't think you need special rules in the game system, just agreement upfront among the GM and players on how experience will be handled.
Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?
The game I'm designing (
a murder of crows) largely dispenses with character advancement. Skills do increase, but you'd have to play for a VERY long time to see it happen. And I'm only begrudgingly including that.
Of course,
a murder of crows is designed more as something you pull out when key players don't show up for a regular session. It does support long term campaign play though. It's designed to simulate shows like
Supernatural,
X-Files and
Kolchak: The Night Stalker, where the characters start as highly trained professional who are already amongst the best in their field.
Hearts & Souls--you can do powerstunts, have changes come upon you through stress events (and their fallout), or have your costume/persona/powers "redesigned" in the game--like comic books.
There is no hard coded "you get better after X, or Y", just if you are unhappy with your PC and need a change you talk to the GM, and make it happen. Since that's how comic book characters really change (and often get changed back.)
Quote from: StuartThe closest example I can think of is Marvel Superheroes.
I was thinking the same thing. I was wondered if pre-faserip marvel had advancement.
Did battletech? I know you can get better parts, and mechwarrior probably included rules for increasing your stats, but I don't recall any improvement in battletech.
Quote from: SeanI'm thinking characters like Sinbad.
You do want Everway, then.
Like Pundy, I'm murky about the exact details, though--I *think* Tweet included some optional suggestions for advancement but no hard and fast rules.
Quote from: KingSpoomI was thinking the same thing. I was wondered if pre-faserip marvel had advancement.
Uh, PRE Faserip Marvel RPG?
I think you may have the timeline backwards. (MSH Basic--Faserip, MSH-Advanced Faserip, Marvel Saga, then MURPG)
Quote from: SilverlionUh, PRE Faserip Marvel RPG?
I think you may have the timeline backwards. (MSH Basic--Faserip, MSH-Advanced Faserip, Marvel Saga, then MURPG)
I do have it backwards, thanks.
MSH Basic doesn't have character advancement, as that was added to MSH Advanced as an additional use of karma. I'd say that it's intended for long campaigns.
Maybe Star Frontiers. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I've seen it mentioned online that it had no advancement.
Oh hey, the Indiana Jones Role-Playing Game had no rules for advancement.
Or character creation.
Quote from: Jason CoplenMaybe Star Frontiers. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I've seen it mentioned online that it had no advancement.
SF had advancement. It was a skill system, you got X number of XP after each adventure/session that you could use to increase ability scores or skill percentages.
Quote from: SeanSay for instance you had a system where a character started as a hero/veteran, maybe able to gain temporary benefits that can get used up (action/fate/fortune/drama points) but didn't get any better than being a seasoned adventurer (so no supermen or demi-gods).
Take a look at HEX (Hollow World Exploration) if you want to see a real neat system like this (Style Points). It's one that actually promotes role playing directly with rewards (not abstractly), but doesn't go so over the top as to become annoying, restrictive, or opressive.
I've had an idea myself for many years for a game that did away with character advencement...unfortunately it is fantasy so It would probably tank in todays market...still, I don't want to reveal the secret to what makes it "special" just in case I get the urge to actually do it some day before I die. :)
If I removed all character advancement, some of my players would actually explode.
For completeness' sake, Wushu and InSpectres should be mentioned, but I'd rather lump them into the
Quote from: Seanone-shot beer and pretzels games
camp.
Games without any possibility of growing, changing or developing your character are kind of silly. It seems like the only reason you could get away with it would be to emulate a particular genre where the characters are already far more competent than the typical person (pulp or superheroes, as others have pointed out). I am generally uninterested in pulp or superheroes - I'd rather play a curious scholar than Spiderman or whatever.
Metal, Magic, and Lore is meant for campaign play and does not include character advancement. The rules are available online. I believe they were simply meant for a later supplement.
The available development rules advance a character very slowly. They're there to live and thrive in the world, not to manifest superpowers at a predictable rate. It's not that kind of game.
It does put the onus on me to find a wide variety of reinforcement for the players, using only campaign elements. The players are into it, bless 'em. I'm generally more at home in a high-gonzo environment, so it's been a refreshing challenge for me.
Puppetland is a bit of a borderline case in that it's basically meant for a single campaign ("brave little puppets overthrow the mad king Punch"), but it does lack mechanical advancement of any kind. Strictly speaking the characters can only get worse, since healing grievous injuries isn't possible at all.
Quote from: KingSpoomI do have it backwards, thanks.
MSH Basic doesn't have character advancement, as that was added to MSH Advanced as an additional use of karma. I'd say that it's intended for long campaigns.
MSH Basic has character advancement in the campaign book. You spend karma to increase traits and buy new powers or skills.
Quote from: grubmanSF had advancement. It was a skill system, you got X number of XP after each adventure/session that you could use to increase ability scores or skill percentages.
Oops. :deflated:
Thanks, Grubman. If you hadn't mentioned that I'd have gone on ignorant until I finally decided to crack open my set for the game at some future date.
Quote from: JackalopeThe game I'm designing (a murder of crows) largely dispenses with character advancement. Skills do increase, but you'd have to play for a VERY long time to see it happen. And I'm only begrudgingly including that.
Of course, a murder of crows is designed more as something you pull out when key players don't show up for a regular session. It does support long term campaign play though. It's designed to simulate shows like Supernatural, X-Files and Kolchak: The Night Stalker, where the characters start as highly trained professional who are already amongst the best in their field.
Murder of Crows is a kickass name for an rpg.
It's off topic, but seemed worth saying all the same.
Quote from: BalbinusMurder of Crows is a kickass name for an rpg.
It's off topic, but seemed worth saying all the same.
As soon as it's out, I'm ripping it off and filing off the serial numbers, and calling it
A Conclave of Cardinals.
Just because!
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceAs soon as it's out, I'm ripping it off and filing off the serial numbers, and calling it A Conclave of Cardinals.
Just because!
-clash
But you'll both be outsold when Rotwang cranks up the awesome and renames it Flock of Seagulls.
Quote from: BalbinusMurder of Crows is a kickass name for an rpg.
I get that a lot. :)
Quote from: PseudoephedrineGames without any possibility of growing, changing or developing your character are kind of silly.
I think the point is that character growth/change/development doesn't have to mean steadily increasing powers and abilities. It can also occur through new and improved relationships and knowledge, things which don't get quantified on the character sheet in many game systems.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt seems like the only reason you could get away with it would be to emulate a particular genre where the characters are already far more competent than the typical person (pulp or superheroes, as others have pointed out). I am generally uninterested in pulp or superheroes - I'd rather play a curious scholar than Spiderman or whatever.
I agree that it's easier to play a no/slow growth style with characters who are already powerful, but I don't think it has to be tied to genre; for example, I wouldn't expect a party of Middle Earth elves to get appreciably more powerful over the course of a high-level fantasy campaign, and I'd think it strange for a well-trained Federation starship crew to suddenly gain steep increases in their abilities (barring some story-driven newly discovered technology, of course).
[BTW, I've played a lot of games over the years with a lot of different ways of handling experience and character/power advancement. In AD&D and Rolemaster, anticipating and achieving the next level and the next set of powers was a big motivator and a lot of fun. In Traveller, increasing player skills took a back seat to paying off the ship and getting a better one. In Gamma World, throwing yourself on a radioactive hot spot of exactly the right level was a quick route to cool new powers. In Runequest, it was all about the skill/POW gain rolls because Rune status in your chosen cult was the way to go. In Amber Diceless, advancement in terms of stats was almost meaningless.]
25+ years ago, when I was playing in college almost daily, most of our games involved getting typical weak starting characters and building them up to super stud-hood. Nowadays, when my fellow players (mostly middle-aged family men) can only get together to play about once a month, the noob-to-l33t path holds less interest and we'd rather start with pretty cool characters from the get go. Consequently, our characters, while not static or stagnant, change little in terms of raw power even over the course of a multi-year game, although I think they still grow a great deal as characters of the story.
Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?
Games? I don't recall any that meet that requirement, but that doesn't mean there isn't.
Campaigns? Certainly, I typically run Superhero games in this fashion. Any genre that's attempting to match series TV and some other media would likely be suited for it as well.
Traveller. There it is.
Quote from: James McMurrayMSH Basic has character advancement in the campaign book. You spend karma to increase traits and buy new powers or skills.
Seems I'm wrong again. It may only be 4 paragraphs in the back of the campaign book, but it's there.
...was I wrong about battletech too?
What about BESM (1ed). In some ways character advancement is optional.
Regards,
David R