Are there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?

Before anyone posts it, Classic Traveller does have advancement, it just caps out fairly early at a maximum number of skills equal to Int plus Edu.  It's in the self improvement section in, I think, Book 2.

So IMO the answer is no, which is a shame really.

Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?

O.k. I was with you until the "long-term campaign" part. So, you play a static character that never changes or just one that never advances?

I can;t think of one that does either so I will be interested to see what comes up.

Bill

Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?

Well, this would be pretty questionable, wouldn't it? If there was literally absolutely NO way for your characters to change over time, even though obviously part of emulation of just about any world is that people DO change over time.

If I recall correctly, I believe that Everway had no experience system. I could be wrong though.

RPGPundit

Say for instance you had a system where a character started as a hero/veteran, maybe able to gain temporary benefits that can get used up (action/fate/fortune/drama points) but didn't get any better than being a seasoned adventurer (so no supermen or demi-gods).

So instead of the gameplay being all about the levelling, skill aquisition it was about the other things you could acquire - money, power, reknown, a castle with a pleasant view.

Apart from ageing, and the reaction to it (I remember there came a point where my Classic Traveller character 'knew' he couldn't outrun the cops in any more chases) and the benefits  of experiencing the world (rather than XPing it) - I don't think I'd miss getting beyond a certain skill level - I'm thinking characters like Sinbad.

Traveller is as far as it gets.

Quote from: BalbinusBefore anyone posts it, Classic Traveller does have advancement, it just caps out fairly early at a maximum number of skills equal to Int plus Edu.  It's in the self improvement section in, I think, Book 2.

So IMO the answer is no, which is a shame really.

To be fair, any of those self-improvement schemes takes four years to complete, and if you read them one way there's no way to learn a skill you are currently unskilled in unless you duck out of adventuring for four years. Granted, some of the other schemes let you get the benefits of them instantly (you need to see it through to make it permanent, though).

In other words, advancement in CT is so slow as to be glacial over the course of a campaign.

I can't think of any...

The closest example I can think of is Marvel Superheroes.  You can save Karma and spend it either on modifying dice rolls, or if you eventually have enough bumping up a stat.  Depending on how the game is run you might be using it up all the time and so never really have enough to bumping your stats.  If you're playing "The Punisher" you're always losing all your Karma too... so advancement is not likely.

Quote from: SeanSay for instance you had a system where a character started as a hero/veteran, maybe able to gain temporary benefits that can get used up (action/fate/fortune/drama points) but didn't get any better than being a seasoned adventurer (so no supermen or demi-gods).

So instead of the gameplay being all about the levelling, skill aquisition it was about the other things you could acquire - money, power, reknown, a castle with a pleasant view.

In the pulp alt-1930s Adventure! campaign that I just finished playing in (which ran for about four years), we started with better than the default power level to begin with. After that, I only spent XP on increasing my character's Background dots; e.g., Backing, Followers, Influence, and Reputation. His stats and skills didn't change at all through the course of the game, but his importance in the world certainly did. That being said, other PCs in the group, especially the more action-oriented ones, did spend their XP on improving themselves rather than their lot, because that's what worked best for them.

A few years ago, I played in a superheros game based on the old FASERIP Marvel rules. While some players spent their XP incrementally over the course of the campaign, I hoarded all of mine until the climactic battle with my character's arch-nemesis in the final session. At a suitably dramatic moment, I spent the whole load to boost his main power to the next level and defeated the bad guy, saving the City, etc., etc.

So if you want to play/run a game without 'character advancement' in the traditional sense (i.e., leveling up from farmboy-to-hero), I don't think you need special rules in the game system, just agreement upfront among the GM and players on how experience will be handled.

Quote from: SeanAre there any games that dispense with character advancement (no levelling up or increased skills) and are still geared around long-term play rather than one-shot beer and pretzels games?

The game I'm designing (a murder of crows) largely dispenses with character advancement.  Skills do increase, but you'd have to play for a VERY long time to see it happen.  And I'm only begrudgingly including that.

Of course, a murder of crows is designed more as something you pull out when key players don't show up for a regular session.  It does support long term campaign play though.  It's designed to simulate shows like Supernatural, X-Files and Kolchak: The Night Stalker, where the characters start as highly trained professional who are already amongst the best in their field.

Hearts & Souls--you can do powerstunts, have changes come upon you through stress events (and their fallout), or have your costume/persona/powers "redesigned" in the game--like comic books.

There is no hard coded "you get better after X, or Y", just if you are unhappy with your PC and need a change you talk to the GM, and make it happen. Since that's how comic book characters really change (and often get changed back.)

Quote from: StuartThe closest example I can think of is Marvel Superheroes.

I was thinking the same thing.  I was wondered if pre-faserip marvel had advancement.

Did battletech?  I know you can get better parts, and mechwarrior probably included rules for increasing your stats, but I don't recall any improvement in battletech.

Quote from: SeanI'm thinking characters like Sinbad.

You do want Everway, then.

Like Pundy, I'm murky about the exact details, though--I *think* Tweet included some optional suggestions for advancement but no hard and fast rules.

Quote from: KingSpoomI was thinking the same thing.  I was wondered if pre-faserip marvel had advancement.

Uh, PRE Faserip Marvel RPG?  

I think you may have the timeline backwards. (MSH Basic--Faserip, MSH-Advanced Faserip, Marvel Saga, then MURPG)

Quote from: SilverlionUh, PRE Faserip Marvel RPG?  

I think you may have the timeline backwards. (MSH Basic--Faserip, MSH-Advanced Faserip, Marvel Saga, then MURPG)

I do have it backwards, thanks.

MSH Basic doesn't have character advancement, as that was added to MSH Advanced as an additional use of karma.  I'd say that it's intended for long campaigns.