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I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea which RPGs have the most players worldwide currently, out of the bazillion that have been published to date? - like what proportion of the gaming community would be playing say D&D vs. Call of Cthulhu vs Warhammer vs. Savage Worlds, etc?

Sales data could be handy - although I expect alot of people may be playing games that are no longer published so any surveys anyone knows of would be interesting as well. Maybe Con data.

Poland is definitely dominated still by Warhammer (2e mostly nowadays) - everyone who plays RPGs here played at least one game of it. And I really mean everyone. It's pretty much rite of passage for every Polish RPer.

I can run a survey when I go to con here, if you want.

D&D in all its many forms (editions, iterations and clones) has to be number 1, right?

Probably a Chinese game based on The Water Margin that none of us have ever heard of that is played by 10 million people in Shaanxi

Quote from: Skywalker;517751D&D in all its many forms (editions, iterations and clones) has to be number 1, right?

I think so, yes.

Call of Cthulhu is extremely popular as well abroad.

Quote from: jibbajibba;517752Probably a Chinese game based on The Water Margin that none of us have ever heard of that is played by 10 million people in Shaanxi

You know, I had always wondered what that book title's in English :D

Quote from: Benoist;517754I think so, yes.

Call of Cthulhu is extremely popular as well abroad.

Probably, but I'd not be so sure. I'd say that there are quite many, many "national"  games, at least in Europe, that outdo DnD fairly. In Poland, DnD is rarely played. It really depends which first decent RPG arrived on the market.

I have no idea how representative it is, but Obsidian Portal lists campaigns by system, and could be used as a metric: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns

Shadowrun was extremely popular in Germany. I figure it still is.

D&D is still the boss, though.

Quote from: jibbajibba;517752Probably a Chinese game based on The Water Margin that none of us have ever heard of that is played by 10 million people in Shaanxi

I seem to remember someone talking about a game that's big in India, which possibly might have a large player base.

It's hard to know though, I tend to be stuck in a mindset that RPGs are only a Anglo-Saxon hobby, but I have no evidence for that prejudice.

Quote from: Thalaba;517759I have no idea how representative it is, but Obsidian Portal lists campaigns by system, and could be used as a metric: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns

Yeah that seems like a pretty good snapshot, or at least it seems to agree with my anecdotal experience. As one might expect D&D & clones completely overshadow everything else. And if you compile a list of game >200 it contains pretty much all the games you'd expect to see.

The only big surprise is D20 Modern which, according to the date on Obsidian Portal is still played a lot (scores better than Call of Cthulhu, Mutants & Masterminds, Fate, Dark Heresy or Exalted).

As for sales data I suspect it's going to be pretty patchy and biased towards newer game. Cons data will tend to over represent games that are good for one-shots.

Thanks for the responses guys!

Quote from: Rincewind1;517750Poland is definitely dominated still by Warhammer (2e mostly nowadays) - everyone who plays RPGs here played at least one game of it. And I really mean everyone. It's pretty much rite of passage for every Polish RPer.

I can run a survey when I go to con here, if you want.

I wouldn't go to to any trouble. I was actually thinking of analysing just what games were running at cons as a sample (I did something similar for Gen Con in a thread here awhile back), rather than surveying players, but yeah that would be a way to do it.

Quote from: Skywalker;517751D&D in all its many forms (editions, iterations and clones) has to be number 1, right?

If you consider all the D&D versions to be a single game. I usually think of D&D as being at least several different games - there are probably dozens of "heartbreakers" (I hate that term, but oh well) more similar to 1E/2E, than either of those are to 3rd, or 3rd to 4th.

Quote from: jibbajibba;517752Probably a Chinese game based on The Water Margin that none of us have ever heard of that is played by 10 million people in Shaanxi

I have a friend in Shanghai who I went to school with, and according to his report its mostly a wasteland RP-wise. A few foreigners play things (he's encountered Pathfinder and Savage Worlds groups) but not too many. Computer games are another story, of course.

Quote from: Thalaba;517759I have no idea how representative it is, but Obsidian Portal lists campaigns by system, and could be used as a metric: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns

Thanks!

Looking over the Obsidian Portal site info in detail, lots of 4th Edition going on there...12,024 games accounting for 33% of total game activity.
3.5 is 6455 or another 18%, with Pathfinder at 4368 or another 12%.
So 3.5 variants combined and 4E are quite similar in total numbers - although that's still more 4E than I'd expected.

Reasonable amount of World of Darkness, split up across various games...1244 or 10%. Savage Worlds is at 5%, GURPS 4%, Shadowrun 4%, Star Wars Saga 4%.
Another interesting thing to me was that 2nd Ed. D&D was outdoing 1st Ed. slightly at 581 (5%) to 305 (2%).

If this is a play-by-post site may be some biases vs. games that work badly by play-by-post (where you need a lot of talk between players/GM perhaps. Still, have to see if I can find anything comparable for other sites...maybe rpol, not sure what else is out there...

Obsidian Portal is a good place to look. The number of data points is pretty high, and it represents face to face campaigns as well as online ones.

Looking at some of my favorite systems, there are a couple of surprises. Runequest has very few games, around the same as Rolemaster. And Traveller has less than I would have expected, too.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;517812I have a friend in Shanghai who I went to school with, and according to his report its mostly a wasteland RP-wise. A few foreigners play things (he's encountered Pathfinder and Savage Worlds groups) but not too many. Computer games are another story, of course.

They should have taken 4e and marketed it to China, Japan, and Korea.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure its D&D.  

RPGPundit

Back in the early 1990s, when I got started, it was D&D (AD&D 2e mostly, with BECMI/RC a distant second) and GURPS. It was probably not a coincidence that the only games with Portuguese translations back then were GURPS (2e, I think? Ugly purple bald androgynous humanoid on the cover) and D&D (specifically a 1980s Portuguese translation of the venerable Red Box, imported from Portugal).

Licensed games like MERP, Star Wars, Marvel Superheroes (TSR) and Call of Cthulhu also enjoyed a certain popularity, as did a couple of local games (Tagmar, a no-surprises fantasy heartbreaker, remarkable for having a strong S&S ethos reminiscent of 1e, in the heyday of 2e; and Desafio dos Bandeirantes, which was set in a fantasy version of colonial Brazil circa 1650 AD) followed.

Vampire: The Masquerade hit these shores a few years later, in 1994; and it was an instant hit, right up there with D&D and GURPS.

Runequest, Traveller, WFRP, Champions, most of Palladium's stuff... I never saw these games played (except Champions 4e, once), and only knew about them vaguely, by way of Dragon magazine (which is how I decided to order Rifts).

Nowadays, I just don't know. I'm so disconnected from the local gaming scene (outside of the pool of 12-15 people from which I draw my gaming groups) that I can't really answer this. Devir got quite a few D&D 4e books translated to Portuguese, and just released GURPS 4e. A new company (Retropunk) is translating selected small-press stuff like Trail of Cthulhu, Fiasco, 3:16 and Savage Worlds. Some of the Retropunk guys even put together an OSR-ish studio (called RedBox, aptly enough) and published Old Dragon, a digest-sized, R$25 (about US$18) retro-clone. I have no idea who's playing what, though.

Quote from: The Butcher;518105Back in the early 1990s, when I got started, it was D&D (AD&D 2e mostly, with BECMI/RC a distant second) and GURPS. It was probably not a coincidence that the only games with Portuguese translations back then were GURPS (2e, I think? Ugly purple bald androgynous humanoid on the cover) and D&D (specifically a 1980s Portuguese translation of the venerable Red Box, imported from Portugal).

In was always told that in the early 90s it was a rule of thumb when ordering was that 80% of USA Role-players would only play D&D , and out of the remaining 20%, 80% of those would only play D&D or Shadowrun. I have no idea how true that is mind.

Quote from: CRKrueger;517839They should have taken 4e and marketed it to China, Japan, and Korea.

They did, there are 3.0 and 3.5 Traditional Chinese editions of D&D for Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore, as well as Simplified Chinese versions of the 4e core books.

I think 3e was popular in Taiwan (there are tons of books available), but I can't comment on 4e in China.

Can't say about Japan and Korea.

Cheers

D&D (3.x and 4e) is probably the most popular RPG in Japan. The hobby is really small here though - think about the hobby in the US and divide it by at least 10. There's still a hard core though including old school types who have copies of Japanese Traveller and Tunnels and Trolls on their shelves (both quite popular here - even recently, T&T 7e got a translation).

Quote from: The_Shadow;518133D&D (3.x and 4e) is probably the most popular RPG in Japan. The hobby is really small here though - think about the hobby in the US and divide it by at least 10. There's still a hard core though including old school types who have copies of Japanese Traveller and Tunnels and Trolls on their shelves (both quite popular here - even recently, T&T 7e got a translation).

Curious -- does the popularity of T&T or Traveller have to do with the fact that they only use d6s?  Nearly every Japanese game I've seen translated/blogged about uses d6s exclusively.

Quote from: Peregrin;518139Curious -- does the popularity of T&T or Traveller have to do with the fact that they only use d6s?  Nearly every Japanese game I've seen translated/blogged about uses d6s exclusively.

Hard to say, but given D&Ds popularity, dice type doesn't seem to be a barrier. You can buy polyhedral dice at some major department stores so there must be some demand.

I think that T&T arrived in Japan early due to more or less to chance, and it gained a small foothold. The monsters in the Japanese illustrations are very cute, it must be said.

Quote from: The_Shadow;518143Hard to say, but given D&Ds popularity, dice type doesn't seem to be a barrier. You can buy polyhedral dice at some major department stores so there must be some demand.

Interesting.  I had heard elsewhere that getting polyhedrals was initially hard and so d6 systems thrived, but I'm not really sure.  Although I think the d10s had been in use for a long while before then.  Something about the navy using them during WWII...hard to remember.

QuoteI think that T&T arrived in Japan early due to more or less to chance, and it gained a small foothold. The monsters in the Japanese illustrations are very cute, it must be said.

I've never seen scans of the Japanese T&T rules, but I know I'd take the manga-style Rules Cyclopedia art over the American art any day. :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;517752Probably a Chinese game based on The Water Margin that none of us have ever heard of that is played by 10 million people in Shaanxi

Quote from: jadrax;517763I seem to remember someone talking about a game that's big in India, which possibly might have a large player base.

With all due respect, I don't think so. Surely someone plays RPGs in some place of China or India, so big and populated as they are, but it's anecdotal. I don't even think China or India have 1/10 of the players the USA, Canada, or Europe have.

QuoteIt's hard to know though, I tend to be stuck in a mindset that RPGs are only a Anglo-Saxon hobby, but I have no evidence for that prejudice.

Not Anglo-Saxon, but Western. RPGs are a Western hobby, with some exceptions, like Japanese RPGs.

Quote from: Peregrin;518145Interesting.  I had heard elsewhere that getting polyhedrals was initially hard and so d6 systems thrived, but I'm not really sure.  Although I think the d10s had been in use for a long while before then.  Something about the navy using them during WWII...hard to remember.



I've never seen scans of the Japanese T&T rules, but I know I'd take the manga-style Rules Cyclopedia art over the American art any day. :)

Thanks for the heads up, just saw the pictures myself, pretty cool.  It does add to the argument that art affects gameplay.  I wonder if WOTC has the rights to republish the art?  It would be cool to see it re-purposed as the new RC!  (or an underground version of the same).

Quote from: Peregrin;518139Curious -- does the popularity of T&T or Traveller have to do with the fact that they only use d6s? Nearly every Japanese game I've seen translated/blogged about uses d6s exclusively.

The afterword of the T&T fiction anthology Mages' Blood & Old Bones talks a little bit about the spread of T&T to Japan (pp 172-173). Michael Stackpole notes:
"Chris Harvey, Flying Buffalo's UK representative, worked a deal with Corgi Books to produce the T&T solo adventures in book form in the United Kingdom. The market there for that kind of game collapsed before we could use up our backlog of old material and start producing new stuff, but Corgi did sell the rights to those books to Japan for translation. In Japan, T&T did very well. In just two years, over 100,000 copies of T&T were snapped up."
Subsequent to that, the T&T computer game was also programmed and published in Japan, before its release in the US.
 
T&T also appeared locally where I am (Adelaide, South Australia) - I guess mostly in the Corgi form; the T&T books were often advertised along with Dragon Warriors rulebooks, which I gather weren't big in the US, at least when initially published. Glad T&T is still surviving over in Japan; I actually started with it, but I don't think it maintained its popularity over here - younger gamers here probably wouldn't be familiar with it.
Our leading game locally (in my city at least, not sure about others) is probably still 3.5; I think alot of Vampire still going on, though its sort of its own subculture.

For a rather small data point, the most popular foreign games in Hungary are Shadowrun, Vampire, Call of Cthulhu and AD&D/3.0. Of course, that's all small fries compared to M.A.G.U.S., which is a mostly OOP local fantasy game with a distinct Renaissance-Europe-meets-cyberpunk-tropes aesthetic.

Quote from: Claudius;518178With all due respect, I don't think so. Surely someone plays RPGs in some place of China or India, so big and populated as they are, but it's anecdotal. I don't even think China or India have 1/10 of the players the USA, Canada, or Europe have.


Not Anglo-Saxon, but Western. RPGs are a Western hobby, with some exceptions, like Japanese RPGs.

I wasn't being entirely serious but its worth noting that -

• There are 500 million active internet users in China alone 2/3 ofd which do online gaming
• Asian MMOs have more registered users that WoW
• Estimates of English speakers in China may be as high as 300M people (although the low end is 10M fluent and 300M as those learning English)  - and remember that India has English as an offical language and the worlds best selling English language newspaper is Indian
• Very small penetration of RPGs into the Chines or Indian University systems (estimated at about 30-60 million people in each country)  could rapidly lead to very large numbers of players
• Both India, China and SE Asia had rich and extensive literary mythological traditions, and a traddition of table top games

My point really was tongue in cheek but that there is a huge market and its a literate, well educated, and statistically a popular pass-time in Asia will dwarf one in Europe or the US.

I agree that if someone created an RPG market in India or China there's no reason why it wouldn't be a huge potential success.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;518543I agree that if someone created an RPG market in India or China there's no reason why it wouldn't be a huge potential success.

RPGPundit

Given that there is a large, English-speaking middle-class in India (tens of millions of people, possibly over 100 million) and that this section of society has extensive connections with America and other western nations through sending their kids to college there (perfect way to pick up geek hobbies),  I wonder why India doesn't have a dynamic branch of the hobby. I suspect there are some cultural factors at play.

Quote from: Peregrin;518145Interesting.  I had heard elsewhere that getting polyhedrals was initially hard and so d6 systems thrived, but I'm not really sure.  Although I think the d10s had been in use for a long while before then.  Something about the navy using them during WWII...hard to remember.



I've never seen scans of the Japanese T&T rules, but I know I'd take the manga-style Rules Cyclopedia art over the American art any day. :)

See here (http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2010/01/sick-sick-sick.html). I bought a copy in Kinokuniya in Shinjuku in early 2010. I was planning on using it to introduce my wife (who's Japanese) to TRPGs, but she wouldn't bite (at least not in this instance, ha ha, etc.). Still got it somewhere.

Quote from: Peregrin;518145I know I'd take the manga-style Rules Cyclopedia art over the American art any day. :)

oh man, i'd love to see scans of that--then run record of lodoss war with it :D

ETA:  google is my friend (http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/jrc.php)

Quote from: The_Shadow;518559Given that there is a large, English-speaking middle-class in India (tens of millions of people, possibly over 100 million) and that this section of society has extensive connections with America and other western nations through sending their kids to college there (perfect way to pick up geek hobbies),  I wonder why India doesn't have a dynamic branch of the hobby. I suspect there are some cultural factors at play.

I just think no one has ever seriously tried.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;518543I agree that if someone created an RPG market in India or China there's no reason why it wouldn't be a huge potential success.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The_Shadow;518559Given that there is a large, English-speaking middle-class in India (tens of millions of people, possibly over 100 million) and that this section of society has extensive connections with America and other western nations through sending their kids to college there (perfect way to pick up geek hobbies),  I wonder why India doesn't have a dynamic branch of the hobby. I suspect there are some cultural factors at play.

This last sentence.

I'd like to add that speaking English is not required in order to have an RPG community, since RPGs can be translated from English or written in the native language, as it happens in a lot of countries of Europe. For example, there are RPGs written in minority European languages, like Danish or Catalan.

Quote from: RPGPundit;518855I just think no one has ever seriously tried.

RPGPundit

Sure, nobody tried, but the question is, if someone tried, would they succeed? I think not. In other words, there is no sizable roleplaying community because there's no interest.

I'd say breaking into a new market in a new country these days is virtually impossible as this time RPGs wouldn't arrive before computer games, but afterwards and most gamers these days are of the opinion that if you want to explore dungeons and collect treasure you play WoW or something similar.

Quote from: Claudius;518953Sure, nobody tried, but the question is, if someone tried, would they succeed? I think not. In other words, there is no sizable roleplaying community because there's no interest.

An alternative proposition is that India and China were dirt poor in the 1970s and early 80s, when RPGs were at their peak, so they missed out on a crucial 'development stage' when the hobby was laying its roots in the US, Europe, and Japan.

India and China are now more than rich enough to support people sitting around pretending to be elves, at least as far as the middle-classes go, but because the hobby has no roots there they don't (or they just do it on WoW or whatever).

Quote from: Claudius;518953Sure, nobody tried, but the question is, if someone tried, would they succeed? I think not. In other words, there is no sizable roleplaying community because there's no interest.

I findthis somewhat unconvincing. If people had tried and failed, i would say okay maybe there is no interest, but if rpgs are a genuinely new concept in such places, then it entirely possible there is untapped interest. There may be cultural factors that would increase or decrease interest, but I don't see anthing inherent in either place that would them less open to gaming.

I have actually been toying with the idea of of creating an RPG in thai for the thai market. My wife has lots of family there and would be interested giving it a try. The biggest problem as an outsider is having little to no knowledge of the kind of gaming culture that exists there already and how to explain the concepts to a translator so that nothing is lost or confused in the process. Also there are lots of issues with regional laws that can be a nightmare for publishers.

i'd love to see the reverse--an rpg from india/china/etc. that would showcase different cultural expectations, goals, that sort of thing.

Quote from: Claudius;518953Sure, nobody tried, but the question is, if someone tried, would they succeed? I think not. In other words, there is no sizable roleplaying community because there's no interest.

Don't try a career as a marketer or entrepreneur, my friend...

I don't see why it hasn't been done, China alone has a Middle class nearly the size of the entire population of the US and India has plenty of knowledge and Euro-western attitudes about capitalism/consumerism.

Quote from: noisms;518725See here (http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.com/2010/01/sick-sick-sick.html). I bought a copy in Kinokuniya in Shinjuku in early 2010. I was planning on using it to introduce my wife (who's Japanese) to TRPGs, but she wouldn't bite (at least not in this instance, ha ha, etc.). Still got it somewhere.

Awesome.

Although now I'm kind of wondering what type of puns they worked into the spell names...

Quote from: Peregrin;519086Awesome.

Although now I'm kind of wondering what type of puns they worked into the spell names...

Been a while since I looked at it. I suspect they didn't bother and just katakana-ized the English names. I'll see if I can dig it out - I do have it somewhere.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;518955I'd say breaking into a new market in a new country these days is virtually impossible as this time RPGs wouldn't arrive before computer games, but afterwards and most gamers these days are of the opinion that if you want to explore dungeons and collect treasure you play WoW or something similar.

I disagree. RPGs arrived in latin america largely after computer games, and there is a small but thriving fandom.
Nor do I think that language is a barrier.  While there are games written in portuguese in brazil, and spanish games or spanish translations of games brought into south america, the vast majority of gamers in south america play the games using the english game books.  And I'd wager there's at least as many english readers and speakers (or potential readers and speakers) in India as there are here.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;519342I disagree. RPGs arrived in latin america largely after computer games, and there is a small but thriving fandom.
Nor do I think that language is a barrier.  While there are games written in portuguese in brazil, and spanish games or spanish translations of games brought into south america, the vast majority of gamers in south america play the games using the english game books.  And I'd wager there's at least as many english readers and speakers (or potential readers and speakers) in India as there are here.

RPGPundit

The difference is that computer games are very very very prevelant in asian countries while comparatively rare in south american ones.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;519474The difference is that computer games are very very very prevelant in asian countries while comparatively rare in south american ones.

I doubt that too.  There's a computer games INDUSTRY in east asian countries (not really in India as far as I know) but every single kid in south america plays computer games here, probably as much as in north america.

RPGPundit

Could also use nearbygamers (http://nearbygamers.com/tags/RPGs) to get some more data.

Quote from: The_Shadow;519060Don't try a career as a marketer or entrepreneur, my friend...

I know!

Anyway, I stand by my claim. D&D was translated into Chinese, so there must be some interest, but what about India?

Quote from: ptingler;519691Could also use nearbygamers (http://nearbygamers.com/tags/RPGs) to get some more data.

I think it would be a mistake to infer any data from that site. Remember it's an English speaking site, and you can bet that most, for example, Argentine gamers, will use Spanish to communicate with each other, even if they speak English.

Quote from: Claudius;519911I know!

Anyway, I stand by my claim. D&D was translated into Chinese, so there must be some interest, but what about India?

I will go outside and ask.

Quote from: RPGPundit;519682I doubt that too.  There's a computer games INDUSTRY in east asian countries (not really in India as far as I know) but every single kid in south america plays computer games here, probably as much as in north america.

RPGPundit

You do realize that after losing 1.7 million subscriptions (over 10% of subs WoW had at its peak btw) in china there is still over 50% of WoW's player base there?
Or that south korea has a very active scene of people who actually get paid to play computer games, that have fans and are treated like rockstars?
Show me the south american equivalent... I'd really like to see that.
Or alternately, stop talking out of your ass.

Quote from: Marleycat;519063I don't see why it hasn't been done, China alone has a Middle class nearly the size of the entire population of the US and India has plenty of knowledge and Euro-western attitudes about capitalism/consumerism.

Except China's middle class would count as paupers by standards of American middle class. By which I mean - they have practically no middle class, at least economically.

Quote from: Rincewind1;519977Except China's middle class would count as paupers by standards of American middle class. By which I mean - they have practically no middle class, at least economically.

Probably given I really don't know much about China.  Then again RPG's are a cheap hobby comparably.

Quote from: Marleycat;520000Probably given I really don't know much about China.  Then again RPG's are a cheap hobby comparably.

Middle Class is big in countries with high income per capita as measured in dollars, to be honest (that is why also in, for example, Poland, there is no real Middle Class).

But yes, RPGs are a cheap hobby. And with Chinese love for everything Western (there is a certain infamous case for cheap American beer being sold as bloody nectar of gods in China, because USA! USA! USA!), it's but a matter of time someone exploits this.

Quote from: noisms;518964An alternative proposition is that India and China were dirt poor in the 1970s and early 80s, when RPGs were at their peak, so they missed out on a crucial 'development stage' when the hobby was laying its roots in the US, Europe, and Japan.

It's hard to imagine a pen and paper RPG taking root in a market where online RPGs are already entrenched.

There was a really insightful series of articles posted online about six or seven years back that focused on the difficulty of establishing and maintaining a steady role playing group in Japan. Damn, I wish I could remember who wrote them - their notes on finding space and overcoming cultural barriers were really good.

Quote from: Géza Echs;520049There was a really insightful series of articles posted online about six or seven years back that focused on the difficulty of establishing and maintaining a steady role playing group in Japan. Damn, I wish I could remember who wrote them - their notes on finding space and overcoming cultural barriers were really good.

Teenagers having friends over to their house to play games doesn't fit a lot of cultures, where home is a private place, or perhaps a place for formal entertaining by adults.

It's not surprising that an activity fostered in suburban USA in the 70s doesn't translate to China or India in the 21st century.

Quote from: Haffrung;520057Teenagers having friends over to their house to play games doesn't fit a lot of cultures, where home is a private place, or perhaps a place for formal entertaining by adults.

It's not surprising that an activity fostered in suburban USA in the 70s doesn't translate to China or India in the 21st century.

That's very true of Japan, actually. There's not a great tradition there of kids hanging around at each others' houses. They do their socializing outside or during after-school activities.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;519970You do realize that after losing 1.7 million subscriptions (over 10% of subs WoW had at its peak btw) in china there is still over 50% of WoW's player base there?
Or that south korea has a very active scene of people who actually get paid to play computer games, that have fans and are treated like rockstars?
Show me the south american equivalent... I'd really like to see that.
Or alternately, stop talking out of your ass.

There's also a more sizable chunk of the world's population in China than in South America.  But you might note, if you get your head out of your own ass for a moment, that I was comparing S.America to NORTH america, not to korea.  

I also notice that you keep directing your argument toward China rather than India...what's your excuse for why there isn't an effort to expand the hobby there?

S.America PROVES that there's nothing particular about RPGs that means they'll only work in north america and europe.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;520289There's also a more sizable chunk of the world's population in China than in South America.  But you might note, if you get your head out of your own ass for a moment, that I was comparing S.America to NORTH america, not to korea.  

I also notice that you keep directing your argument toward China rather than India...what's your excuse for why there isn't an effort to expand the hobby there?

S.America PROVES that there's nothing particular about RPGs that means they'll only work in north america and europe.

RPGPundit

Except that South America is much, much closer culturally to Europe and North America then Far East. A simple example - there is no positive- or neutral - connotation word for "privacy" in Chinese.

India is in some ways culturally closer to anglo-saxon culture than S.America is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;520295India is in some ways culturally closer to anglo-saxon culture than S.America is.

RPGPundit

Hm. I agree that India is certainly one of the, if not the, closest culturally to the Western culture country in Far East. In it's case it is surprising why RPGs did not yet establish a foothold there. Perhaps because of the lack of Indian - Fantasy based RPGs?

I'm no expert by any means but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Indian legends and myths are tied quite tightly to their religion and that heroes and adventures don't feature heavily.

On the other hand, Bollywood movies are massive. I wonder how a Bollywood-themed generic RPG would go down...

Quote from: Dodger;520412On the other hand, Bollywood movies are massive. I wonder how a Bollywood-themed generic RPG would go down...

use feng shui for bollywood adventures!

I've heard that term before "Bollywood" but what does it mean? And what are differences between them and "Hollywood" movies inasmuch much that they have a specific term for them?

Quote from: Marleycat;520442I've heard that term before "Bollywood" but what does it mean? And what are differences between them and "Hollywood" movies inasmuch much that they have a specific term for them?

Most importantly, Bollywood is how films would look if most of the directors thought that films are just musicals recorded with cameras ;).

Also - why don't you try to make your own film to see?

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?lang=en

Quote from: RPGPundit;520295India is in some ways culturally closer to anglo-saxon culture than S.America is.

RPGPundit

As a man currently in India ... hmmm... Remember most of S America are European emigrees. And the most alien culture I ahve ever visited is Japan and I think that is the asian country where RPGs are most likely to work.

So there is a traditon of playing games in both India and China. There are numerous board and card games in both countries Chess for exampel is very popular in India.
Historically its fair to say that neither culture has a concept of haning round at each others houses but that is because historically houses are small households are very large. Most Indian homes even now don't have space for a half dozen teenagers to sit round and play a game for an afternoon.
Also in both countries there is no real concept of a 'teen-ager' as being someone who can laze about and play games. Teenagers work.
Now that is changing as wealth increases and families reduce in size. If you have a decent job and only 2 kids then maybe they don't have to get jobs at 11 but then there is a huge drive in education, education education....

I think the entry point for games in India and China is schools. If you could promote RPGs through the school system and give them a gloss of studiousness then I think you solve the issues of homes being small and parents thinking games are a waste of time.
A friend of mine who lives in Majorca uses D&D  to teach small kids (6-9)English and he gets a lot of sucess with it.
There are hugely popular mythological traditions in both countries and folk heroes abound. Both countries have their own very sucessful movie industries and they tap into a vein of escapism and both countries love violent action adventure which is of course what 90% of RPGs are about.

I think it woudl work. I also of course think there is no money in it or I would have been doing it already. Protecting IP in either country is next to impossible. But cheaply mass produced d6 based games created in a magazine format so the books could be produced and sold for $1 each I think have real potential to penetrate.
MTG already has a strong presence in China (though not India).

Quote from: Rincewind1;520443Most importantly, Bollywood is how films would look if most of the directors thought that films are just musicals recorded with cameras ;).

Also - why don't you try to make your own film to see?

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?lang=en

Forget I asked, "A pox on thine house, a pox I say".:)

Quote from: RPGPundit;520289There's also a more sizable chunk of the world's population in China than in South America.  But you might note, if you get your head out of your own ass for a moment, that I was comparing S.America to NORTH america, not to korea.  

I also notice that you keep directing your argument toward China rather than India...what's your excuse for why there isn't an effort to expand the hobby there?

S.America PROVES that there's nothing particular about RPGs that means they'll only work in north america and europe.

RPGPundit

Does South America really prove that? Are the sales that good that everyone rushes a spanish translation of their RPG to not miss out on the South American market? I think not.
And about RPG/computer games and asia. Reality proves me right there. There is simply no arguing about it. Computer games are huge, RPGs are a footnote with the exception of some Japanese created game that are so story gamey that you wouldn't probably count them as RPGs anyway.

Quote from: jibbajibba;520450As a man currently in India ... hmmm... Remember most of S America are European emigrees.

It depends. A lot of South American countries are populated mainly by people of Amerindian heritage (or mixtures of Amerindian with other races). Countries like Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, etc. Interestingly, it's in those countries that have sizeable populations of European heritage where the hobby is strongest, like Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil.

QuoteHistorically its fair to say that neither culture has a concept of haning round at each others houses but that is because historically houses are small households are very large. Most Indian homes even now don't have space for a half dozen teenagers to sit round and play a game for an afternoon.
Also in both countries there is no real concept of a 'teen-ager' as being someone who can laze about and play games. Teenagers work.

These two explanations sound plausible, especially the last one.

QuoteI think it woudl work. I also of course think there is no money in it or the Chinese and the Indians would have been doing it already.

Fixed it.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;520469Does South America really prove that? Are the sales that good that everyone rushes a spanish translation of their RPG to not miss out on the South American market? I think not.

Yes and no. Although you can find Spanish translations in South America, they are usually made in Spain for internal consumption. The hobby does exist in South America, but there is no local industry (except in Brazil). This is something I'd love to see, local publishers writing and publishing RPGs. If they are any good, I'd buy them!

Quote from: jibbajibba;520450Historically its fair to say that neither culture has a concept of haning round at each others houses but that is because historically houses are small households are very large. Most Indian homes even now don't have space for a half dozen teenagers to sit round and play a game for an afternoon.
Also in both countries there is no real concept of a 'teen-ager' as being someone who can laze about and play games. Teenagers work.
Now that is changing as wealth increases and families reduce in size. If you have a decent job and only 2 kids then maybe they don't have to get jobs at 11 but then there is a huge drive in education, education education....

I think the entry point for games in India and China is schools. If you could promote RPGs through the school system and give them a gloss of studiousness then I think you solve the issues of homes being small and parents thinking games are a waste of time.
A friend of mine who lives in Majorca uses D&D  to teach small kids (6-9)English and he gets a lot of sucess with it.

I know India a bit, if superficially - a few years back I did a lot of business trips there to Delhi and Mumbai. What's true of most of the population - kids at work, small homes with a lot of people in them - is not true of the upper strata that use English or Hinglish as a lingua franca and are pretty well embedded in Western culture, both through carrying on with status-conscious traditions and activities left over from the Raj and - more important these days - just tuning in to what they think is cool from overseas. They are a small percentage of the population, but in such a large country they add up to a market of opportunity comparable to a large European state.

India does have a tradition of heroes and legend - its pretty culturally distinctive, so I can imagine why offering that market the standard western fantasy fare would only interest those completely steeped in western culture (e.g. went to school in England) which isn't a market.

China and Japan - the appetite and market for English Language Teaching is enormous, and they enjoy using entertainment media to do it (I know from personal experience). I don't know if anyone has ever tried RPGs as a way to do it commercially as a niche product, but I doubt it.

Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;520474I know India a bit, if superficially - a few years back I did a lot of business trips there to Delhi and Mumbai. What's true of most of the population - kids at work, small homes with a lot of people in them - is not true of the upper strata that use English or Hinglish as a lingua franca and are pretty well embedded in Western culture, both through carrying on with status-conscious traditions and activities left over from the Raj and - more important these days - just tuning in to what they think is cool from overseas. They are a small percentage of the population, but in such a large country they add up to a market of opportunity comparable to a large European state.

India does have a tradition of heroes and legend - its pretty culturally distinctive, so I can imagine why offering that market the standard western fantasy fare would only interest those completely steeped in western culture (e.g. went to school in England) which isn't a market.

China and Japan - the appetite and market for English Language Teaching is enormous, and they enjoy using entertainment media to do it (I know from personal experience). I don't know if anyone has ever tried RPGs as a way to do it commercially as a niche product, but I doubt it.

I would agreewith a lot of that from my experience expect that upper middleclass indian layer do expect their kids to work hard and go to good colleges and there is a lot of parental control.  I think an upper middle class Indian Prep School would be a fertile ground for RPGs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;519342I disagree. RPGs arrived in latin america largely after computer games, and there is a small but thriving fandom.
Nor do I think that language is a barrier.  While there are games written in portuguese in brazil, and spanish games or spanish translations of games brought into south america, the vast majority of gamers in south america play the games using the english game books.  And I'd wager there's at least as many english readers and speakers (or potential readers and speakers) in India as there are here.

My own impression of the gaming situation in Mexico is that it's not that common to order stuff through the internet, at least for any people I know, and it's difficult for people who are potentially interested to actually get them. My soon-to-be sister in law, who is in Mexico City, is very interested in both board and roleplaying games and knew of exactly one gamestore in the whole city (though there must be more).
Also, the games are very expensive compared to the average Mexican budget. 500 pesos for Arkham Horror is a lot of money and she almost didn't want to accept us giving it to her as a birthday present.
Though the numbers are increasing there's still a lot of people who hardly know any English. Spanish-language editions would help a lot in that respect.
There's a Spanish edition of Call of Cthulhu lying around at my gf's family's house but no one has seriously given it a read or considered actually playing it. My gf bought it because she's a Lovecraft fan, not knowing what it was exactly. I'm considering running it for them but I'd have to run it in English which is not my first language and would rule out non-English speakers in the family from participating.

Quote from: RPGPundit;519682I doubt that too.  There's a computer games INDUSTRY in east asian countries (not really in India as far as I know) but every single kid in south america plays computer games here, probably as much as in north america.

In Mexico, anyone who can afford them seems obsessed with playing console games. My 12 year old computer gamer nephew has expressed some curiosity regarding pen and paper RPGs, though I think he primarily likes the cover illustrations.
Manga and anime are extremely popular and much more mainstream than in the Netherlands, which might also lead to an interest in tabletop RPG.

So yeah, there's probably lots of potential interest but availability, language barrier and price tag present obstacles. Mind you, I'm unfamiliar with the upper class situation, where those obstacles would not exist.

In Korea (last I lived there was 10 years ago so things have changed obviously, but...)

Parent's apartments don't have basements (or anywhere else) to turn into gaming space and people don't generally visit each other's houses socially - entire districts of cities are packed with 10 floors of cafes and bars for adults hanging out. High-school kids are usually too busy studying or taking after-school private classes to do anything approximating hanging out (I kid you not), but when they do, the PC-room is their social environment, row upon row of machines with starcraft (or whatever). They've got other places, like Video-rooms with little rentable cubicles with DVD-players and TVs so the kids can watch movies together, though these are probably dinosaurs with the advent of smartphones, I dunno.

I think the idea of integrating RPGs with English-as-second-language teaching would be the best entry point. When I used to walk home from work, complete strangers, university aged?, would stop me on the street and ask if I would be their English tutor. Had I said "Yes", I could have had a campaign running within the week.

I have a new player in one group who is Iranian, and she mentioned the other day that, although she has played WoW etc., "I don't think we have ever had to use our imaginations like this before". Conceptually then, translating a RPG into Persian and then dropping it in the Iranian market wouldn't work - people have no experience with this kind of collaborative imagination-play, "ok, so what are we supposed to do with this?"

Quote from: DominikSchwager;520469Does South America really prove that? Are the sales that good that everyone rushes a spanish translation of their RPG to not miss out on the South American market? I think not.

Because people are idiots.  There are more gamers in Montevideo than the total sales figures of some of your favorite forge non-RPGs.  Yes, more than 3 of us!  In fact, there are hundreds, and Montevideo is the first place I'd been to in a long time that had an open and inter-communicating community of gamers that weren't just tiny little closed groups.  I currently have a floating pool of about 15-20 players for my games.  How many people can say that in North America, dipshit?

Anything that arrives for sale in Uruguay gamebook-wise, which is to say almost nothing, sells out immediately, and these are for english books imported and sold often at double the price of what you'd get it for in the U.S.  
They devour it. Any game someone brings in gets photocopied, downloaded, printed out, and played everywhere.  There's a big community of Amber players here. Why? Because I brought an Amber book with me.  Another person brought in L5R and the same thing happened.  Someone else did that with the Sailor Moon RPG, and that's big here too (mostly among teen girls, but whatever).  

There is a company here that's making and selling its own dice, and I think another that's bringing them in from somewhere.

If someone actually sat down and figured out, INTELLIGENTLY, how to market an RPG to the latinamerican market (rather than just token efforts at distribution or translation), they'd do really well. In fact, SJG HAS done really well doing precisely that with GURPS for the Brazilian market, from what I've been told.

The only thing you've demonstrated is that whether you're talking about Latin America, China, or India, its not that RPGs fail, or that the poor darkies can't figure out why they're great, its the fault of the INDUSTRY, who FAIL AT CAPITALISM.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Claudius;520471It depends. A lot of South American countries are populated mainly by people of Amerindian heritage (or mixtures of Amerindian with other races). Countries like Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, etc. Interestingly, it's in those countries that have sizeable populations of European heritage where the hobby is strongest, like Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil.

I think a much more important factor than race or culture is that those are the countries that are relatively speaking less motherfucking poor and politically fucked up.  Not just the three you mentioned, but I know that gaming is also very popular in Chile and Columbia.  

So yes, the big secret is you need to have a sufficiently not-starving, sufficiently not rioting-in-the-streets sufficiently educated middle class for RPGs to succeed, just like both China and India now have.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Claudius;520472Yes and no. Although you can find Spanish translations in South America, they are usually made in Spain for internal consumption. The hobby does exist in South America, but there is no local industry (except in Brazil). This is something I'd love to see, local publishers writing and publishing RPGs. If they are any good, I'd buy them!

And in Brazil, the local industry has been very prolific and successful, and in the rest of latin america, the spanish-speaking part, I think there would be no reason not to think it wouldn't be as well, as soon as someone copies the exact same market strategy that made "defensores de Tokyo", "3D&T", "Tormenta", etc. into successful RPGs.

RPGPundit

I mean fuck, I hate to start sounding like tangency, but there's so much dumbass racist presumptions going on in this thread on the part of certain posters ("south americans don't play video games/ wouldn't understand RPGs/ wouldn't want to play a gringo game that wasn't from their culture/ don't fanatically read harry potter, lord of the rings, twilight, the way kids in north america do/ wouldn't buy gamebooks in spanish and surely wouldn't spend small fortunes buying gamebooks in english/ couldn't possibly have a sector of society that would be ideally suited to being a gaming population because.. you know they're basically all mexicans so they have to be living in illiteracy wallowing in bullethole-ridden hovels").  It strikes me as hilarious, the things that some of the posters here are saying, as far as the vision they must have of what latin america or china or india are actually like.

Of course, some of these idiots are likely not really racists, they're just willing to become racists to argue with me, proving again my Anti-Pundit hypothesis: that pundit-haters will be willing to adopt almost any argument, however vile, as long as its the opposite of mine.

RPGPundit

Pundit, I don't think it's intentional "racism", but more of a liberal arts major "multicultural sensitivity" thing. Which teleologically amounts to the same thing, of course, so you're essentially right... but I wouldn't hold it against them. I've grown used to the idea that people think that there are monkeys in the streets of Rio and that the Amazon Rainforest is just around the corner from the Cristo Redentor, for some time now; I probably hold similar misconceptions about other countries, that I don't even realize.

I'm not sure how good a market Brazil is right now, because the gaming community here in Rio is precisely the opposite of what you say about Montevideo, i.e. a very insular deal. Even online forums are few and far between.

Back in the 90s, when we had more of a community, Devir had a stranglehold on the market (translating and distributing D&D, GURPS and oWoD stuff), then the folks from Dragão Brasil (Trama? I think that was the company name) went out and released Defensores de Tóquio, Tormenta, and assorted other stuff (don't ask me what's it like. I disliked the magazine -- chock full of unoriginal ideas, copyright infringements and anime/manga wannabe art -- bad enough to keep me from touching their games). We had a few original Brazilian RPGs released before, in the early 90s, but the company which published them went under in the mid-90s, I think.

But I agree that there's definitely an untapped market. The folks at RetroPunk Game Design (http://portal.retropunk.net/) are working on a bunch of translations right now. Trail of Cthulhu (ironic, since CoC never got a translation), Savage Worlds, a smattering of Forge-inspired stuff (3:16, Mortal Coil, Fiasco), and even set up RedBox Editora (http://redboxeditora.com.br/) to publish a D&D retro-clone of their own, Old Dragon (http://olddragon.redboxeditora.com.br/), The Shotgun Diaries and are working on a couple of mysterious "gringo licenses" and a SF hack of Old Dragon (imaginatively called Space Dragon). All links in Portuguese, sorry guys.

I'd say things are looking up and, all things considered, it may not be a bad idea for a clever RPG publisher to look into releasing their stuff in Portuguese.

Quote from: The Butcher;520977Pundit, I don't think it's intentional "racism", but more of a liberal arts major "multicultural sensitivity" thing. Which teleologically amounts to the same thing, of course, so you're essentially right... but I wouldn't hold it against them. I've grown used to the idea that people think that there are monkeys in the streets of Rio and that the Amazon Rainforest is just around the corner from the Cristo Redentor, for some time now; I probably hold similar misconceptions about other countries, that I don't even realize.

I know fuck all about South America but I do know that fantasy literature is very popular in Portugal and Spain (for instance, when people like George R R Martin release a book the first language it is translated into is often Portuguese). So can we speculate wildly that there is there something in the Iberian cultural memory that appreciates fantasy? Especially given the literary tradition of the area, stretching back to Cervantes, that appreciates the weird, fantastical, and picaresque and, well, "quixotic"?

Maybe we can also speculate wildly a little further: part of that literary tradition is magic realism, which was a product of Latin America, further indicating it would be relatively fertile ground for fantasy lit and thus gaming?

I lived in Japan for 7 years, and I've travelled a lot through Europe and Asia, enough to convince me that cultural differences are real and count for something. It really is true that in Japan and South Korea there is little or no culture of kids hanging out at each other's houses, which would make it hard for RPGs to gain a foothold in the same way they did in the US and UK.

Quote from: noisms;520978I lived in Japan for 7 years, and I've travelled a lot through Europe and Asia, enough to convince me that cultural differences are real and count for something. It really is true that in Japan and South Korea there is little or no culture of kids hanging out at each other's houses, which would make it hard for RPGs to gain a foothold in the same way they did in the US and UK.

Not claiming that cultural differences don't exist, just that appreciation for these differences can lead one to underestimate the similarities.

As for the "Iberian cultural memory" thing, I don't know. The general public in Brazil doesn't give a crap about the Middle Ages, anymore than they give a crap about Ancient Egypt or Sengoku Japan. Which is to say, it's very much the province of geeks, and I can't think of anything that motivates people to seek out typical English-language fantasy literature around these parts, save divulgation by other media; LotR enjoyed a certain popularity when the movies were released, and ASoIaF is going through the same with the HBO series (the Brazilian release of the Portuguese translation coincided with the series' airing in Brazil).

I'm inclined to agree with Pundit that it takes a certain "critical mass" of middle-class population under a stable sociopolitical milieu to nurture a worthwhile RPG market.

Quote from: The Butcher;520979Not claiming that cultural differences don't exist, just that appreciation for these differences can lead one to underestimate the similarities.

As for the "Iberian cultural memory" thing, I don't know. The general public in Brazil doesn't give a crap about the Middle Ages, anymore than they give a crap about Ancient Egypt or Sengoku Japan. Which is to say, it's very much the province of geeks, and I can't think of anything that motivates people to seek out typical English-language fantasy literature around these parts, save divulgation by other media; LotR enjoyed a certain popularity when the movies were released, and ASoIaF is going through the same with the HBO series (the Brazilian release of the Portuguese translation coincided with the series' airing in Brazil).

I'm inclined to agree with Pundit that it takes a certain "critical mass" of middle-class population under a stable sociopolitical milieu to nurture a worthwhile RPG market.

It depends how you define "worthwhile", but it doesn't explain why RPGs aren't particularly common or well known in some countries that do have a large middle-class population under a stable sociopolitical milieu (Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, the Philippines, Turkey, Italy). And how stable is the sociopolitical milieu in South America? It's relatively stable now, but certainly wasn't in the 1970s and 1980s (and earlier).

I certainly think the large-middle-class argument is part of it, but it's not the full story.

Quote from: RPGPundit;520969I currently have a floating pool of about 15-20 players for my games.  How many people can say that in North America, dipshit?

Not sure about North America, but I find that a pretty normal occurence to have a bigger player pool than you have people actually playing in the game... dipshit?

Quote from: noisms;520978I know fuck all about South America but I do know that fantasy literature is very popular in Portugal and Spain (for instance, when people like George R R Martin release a book the first language it is translated into is often Portuguese). So can we speculate wildly that there is there something in the Iberian cultural memory that appreciates fantasy?

Just a curiosity: last year, GRRM sold more than double the amount of books that made it in the whole genre market in UK. Fantasy literature here is huge.

One thing that also needs to be considered for Asian (at least Chinese) cultures is the importance of studies on the life of children. In many cases kids are herded from school to after school cram school and then home for homework and sleep. They do not have the leisure time that US kids do, nor do they have the opportunity to meet in the numbers required for a general gaming session easily especially in large blocks of time.

Computer/console games are very popular and it may be that they can match the schedule of kids- they can be played solo, online, face to face and in small chunks of time or even all night. Once kids get to college they no longer have such a scholastic grind, but by then the hooks may not have set.

Quote from: noisms;520980It depends how you define "worthwhile", but it doesn't explain why RPGs aren't particularly common or well known in some countries that do have a large middle-class population under a stable sociopolitical milieu (Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, the Philippines, Turkey, Italy). And how stable is the sociopolitical milieu in South America? It's relatively stable now, but certainly wasn't in the 1970s and 1980s (and earlier).

I certainly think the large-middle-class argument is part of it, but it's not the full story.

Uh, yeah.  Right now Cuba is the only non-democratic country in latinamerica, and Uruguay has about a 7% unemployment rate. Suck it.
Actually, I have to suck it. Because the economic prosperity has gotten so good here that my own dollar-derived standard of living has taken a big hit compared to the days when I first got here.

Anyways, I think that again, the reason that you don't have big RPG hobbies in those countries is basically because no one has really made a decent effort to introduce the hobby there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521174Uh, yeah.  Right now Cuba is the only non-democratic country in latinamerica, and Uruguay has about a 7% unemployment rate. Suck it.
Actually, I have to suck it. Because the economic prosperity has gotten so good here that my own dollar-derived standard of living has taken a big hit compared to the days when I first got here.

Anyways, I think that again, the reason that you don't have big RPG hobbies in those countries is basically because no one has really made a decent effort to introduce the hobby there.

RPGPundit

Good job that I didn't say Latin America was unstable and full of non-democracies now, then, wasn't it? I said that during the 70s and 80s and earlier it was. "Dipshit" (to coin a phrase).

Quote from: RPGPundit;521174Actually, I have to suck it. Because the economic prosperity has gotten so good here that my own dollar-derived standard of living has taken a big hit compared to the days when I first got here.

Anyways, I think that again, the reason that you don't have big RPG hobbies in those countries is basically because no one has really made a decent effort to introduce the hobby there.

RPGPundit

If any fucking moron can do it, as you assert, then you're sitting on a goldmine. So get off your ass and make it happen.

Quote from: RPGPundit;521174Uh, yeah.  Right now Cuba is the only non-democratic country in latinamerica, and Uruguay has about a 7% unemployment rate. Suck it.
Actually, I have to suck it. Because the economic prosperity has gotten so good here that my own dollar-derived standard of living has taken a big hit compared to the days when I first got here.

Anyways, I think that again, the reason that you don't have big RPG hobbies in those countries is basically because no one has really made a decent effort to introduce the hobby there.

RPGPundit

So you and some guys on an internet forum have found the solution to all the ails of the RPG industry (several huge untapped markets) and nobody in the industry has never thought of it before or tried properly?
Call me cyncial, but I suspect it is not that easy.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;521229So you and some guys on an internet forum have found the solution to all the ails of the RPG industry (several huge untapped markets) and nobody in the industry has never thought of it before or tried properly?
Call me cyncial, but I suspect it is not that easy.

to be fair no one said it was easy :)

In fact I think that in the case of India and China the real issue would be protectign the IP. I mean writing a game, translating it in to manadrain, finding he market etc is simple and distribution would be a breeze :)

No one said it would be easy ....

But if WotC who have a popular branded product might be looking to increase sales then perhaps there may be untapped markets....

Quote from: noisms;521218Good job that I didn't say Latin America was unstable and full of non-democracies now, then, wasn't it? I said that during the 70s and 80s and earlier it was. "Dipshit" (to coin a phrase).

Which is in any way relevant how?? In the 70s and 80s half of Germany was communist. Does that mean Shadowrun won't sell there?

RPGPundit

Quote from: DominikSchwager;521229So you and some guys on an internet forum have found the solution to all the ails of the RPG industry (several huge untapped markets) and nobody in the industry has never thought of it before or tried properly?
Call me cyncial, but I suspect it is not that easy.

What efforts have been done? Certainly, there are logistical problems.  For starters, the whole thing would be something different than just making a spanish translation of D&D and then.. profit?

But it is in fact simpler than one could imagine. If you could make a cheaper softcover version of the D&D rules-set, and shipped it in big numbers for sale at bookstores (many of which here also sell boardgames), that would probably do it.  If you wanted to be really clever, you'd create something like the booklets that were in the old D&D basic sets, and sell those at kiosks.  You'd need to figure out distribution and get local partners.

But really, that's it.  Right now, hardly anyone has done it. In part, its because most gaming companies think in a survival mode, they don't want to risk the kind of costs that would be involved in making something like this.

So yes, no one has actually tried in a serious way.  Or hardly anyone. SJG made some attempt at it in Brazil.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521294Which is in any way relevant how?? In the 70s and 80s half of Germany was communist. Does that mean Shadowrun won't sell there?

RPGPundit

No, you buffoon. Earlier it was alleged by somebody that you need a middle-class that has been stable and well established for a considerable period of time, which is supposedly why RPGs haven't gained a foothold in China or India despite their current large middle classes. I was pointing out that Latin America hasn't had large middle classes which have enjoyed a long period of stability either, but it hasn't stopped most Latin American countries having good gaming scenes now.

Quote from: RPGPundit;521295But really, that's it.  Right now, hardly anyone has done it. In part, its because most gaming companies think in a survival mode, they don't want to risk the kind of costs that would be involved in making something like this.

So yes, no one has actually tried in a serious way.  Or hardly anyone. SJG made some attempt at it in Brazil.

Wasn't a newsstand-available RPG your basic plan for Forward: to Adventure?

Quote from: noisms;521297No, you buffoon. Earlier it was alleged by somebody that you need a middle-class that has been stable and well established for a considerable period of time, which is supposedly why RPGs haven't gained a foothold in China or India despite their current large middle classes. I was pointing out that Latin America hasn't had large middle classes which have enjoyed a long period of stability either, but it hasn't stopped most Latin American countries having good gaming scenes now.

China and India have a large middle class?  Really?

By absolute numbers, sure. As a percentage of the population, not so much.

Also, one has to note that the people called the new chinese middle class are most of the time wealthier than their american counterparts.

Quote from: Teazia;521334China and India have a large middle class?  Really?

If even only 10% of the population of China or India is "middle class", however you define it, that's still 120, 130 million people each. Getting on for twice the entire population of the UK.

Quote from: Teazia;521334China and India have a large middle class?  Really?

Many folks there have indoor plumbing, too!

Quote from: The_Shadow;521347Many folks there have indoor plumbing, too!

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OY8da5qNp3E/Tuj3yijwqUI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/HL5unaUChVk/s1600/impossibru.jpg)

Although what Melan said. It's large because a lot of people live there, but it's a small percentage of society.

Quote from: noisms;521342If even only 10% of the population of China or India is "middle class", however you define it, that's still 120, 130 million people each. Getting on for twice the entire population of the UK.

Which when taken seperately is nearly half the population of entire US, territories et al included.  Combined that number comes within 50 million, that is 83% of total population, territories et al included.  That's an uptapped market of consumers the like of which is nearly unimaginable, which if tapped correctly could drive the world economy to levels of prosperity that even in the US's heyday would be considered unbelievable.

Quote from: Rincewind1;521348(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OY8da5qNp3E/Tuj3yijwqUI/AAAAAAAAA1Y/HL5unaUChVk/s1600/impossibru.jpg)

I love how casual racism is okay if it's East Asians. Oh no wait, no I don't.

Quote from: Marleycat;521431Which when taken seperately is nearly half the population of entire US, territories et al included.  Combined that number comes within 50 million, that is 83% of total population, territories et al included.  That's an uptapped market of consumers the like of which is nearly unimaginable, which if tapped correctly could drive the world economy to levels of prosperity that even in the US's heyday would be considered unbelievable.

And, more importantly, create lots of new RPG players!

In all seriousness though, yes. And there are hundreds of millions of poor people in those countries knocking on the door of that middle class, who will undoubtedly come out of poverty in the coming decades. Reason to be cheerful.

Quote from: noisms;521433And, more importantly, create lots of new RPG players!

In all seriousness though, yes. And there are hundreds of millions of poor people in those countries knocking on the door of that middle class, who will undoubtedly come out of poverty in the coming decades. Reason to be cheerful.

Yep, on the rpg players.  And yes that's the point, if 1 makes it 100 have hope they can make it, which is great for the world and rpg's (of course rpg's are the important part of the equation).:D

Seriously, people with the goal of becoming Middle Class are focused on working and producing, not "using" or dragging down others and destroying.  

If that goal is attainable things like terrorism and the extremists that promote such things become far less relevant without a shot being fired. Uninfortunately we have quite a way to go in achieving this.

Quote from: noisms;521432I love how casual racism is okay if it's East Asians. Oh no wait, no I don't.

Have a pint of white guilt on me.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-m942FRNHBJs/Tucjt_d2a5I/AAAAAAAAJ6o/0bjScSw4AK0/s1600/IMPOSSIBRU.jpg)

Just don't let it spill!

Oh rly?

(http://i.imgur.com/x5jCL.jpg)

How did the Polish execution platoon die while performing their duties?

They formed a circle.

Quote from: Rincewind1;521446How did the Polish execution platoon die while performing their duties?

They formed a circle.

I never even thought it, nope nothing to see here. :D

Quote from: Marleycat;521440Yep, on the rpg players.  And yes that's the point, if 1 makes it 100 have hope they can make it, which is great for the world and rpg's (of course rpg's are the important part of the equation).:D

Seriously, people with the goal of becoming Middle Class are focused on working and producing, not "using" or dragging down others and destroying.  

If that goal is attainable things like terrorism and the extremists that promote such things become far less relevant without a shot being fired. Uninfortunately we have quite a way to go in achieving this.

We need to promise them the prize of D&D for attaining development!

Quote from: Rincewind1;521441Have a pint of white guilt on me.

It's not white guilt, just living in East Asia for a long time and being married to a Japanese woman makes me sensitive about the fact that racism is The Worst Thing Ever with regard to some races but not really for others.

That said, keep calm and carry on - I was just yanking your chain/rattling your cage/pulling your leg.

I wouldn't put so much into his words. Racism is pretty rampant in poland.

Quote from: noisms;521297No, you buffoon. Earlier it was alleged by somebody that you need a middle-class that has been stable and well established for a considerable period of time, which is supposedly why RPGs haven't gained a foothold in China or India despite their current large middle classes. I was pointing out that Latin America hasn't had large middle classes which have enjoyed a long period of stability either, but it hasn't stopped most Latin American countries having good gaming scenes now.

Latin America HAS had a stable middle class for a considerable period of time. Just because certain countries have gone in and out of dictatorships didn't change the fact that there is a middle class in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil, Columbia and Venezuela at least, that is fairly stable and a sufficiently significant percentage of the population.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Melan;521299Wasn't a newsstand-available RPG your basic plan for Forward: to Adventure?

It was. It still could be.

Quote from: Teazia;521334China and India have a large middle class?  Really?

Have you seen Mumbai lately?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521525Latin America HAS had a stable middle class for a considerable period of time. Just because certain countries have gone in and out of dictatorships didn't change the fact that there is a middle class in Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil, Columbia and Venezuela at least, that is fairly stable and a sufficiently significant percentage of the population.

RPGPundit

Sure, but now the goalposts are shifting again - I seem to remember political stability being one of the ingredients being mooted for RPG-growth-success in whatever post it was. Latin America shows that isn't true.

And if it's all the same I've had quite enough of clarifying what was just a very simple point made tangentially to something else.

Quote from: noisms;521528Sure, but now the goalposts are shifting again - I seem to remember political stability being one of the ingredients being mooted for RPG-growth-success in whatever post it was. Latin America shows that isn't true.

And if it's all the same I've had quite enough of clarifying what was just a very simple point made tangentially to something else.

I would say the kind of political instability you see in Venezuela right now would probably be unhelpful for the likelihood of a nascent RPG market.

On the other hand and again to counteract the "they all live in mud huts and serve the generalisimo" nonsense, Uruguay, Argentina and Brazil have all had stable democracies for almost 30 years now, and weren't exactly the Killing Fields of Cambodia even during their dictatorships.

Really I don't know how much more effectively I can explain this: these countries have all the same kids wanting to play all the same games as in Wisconsin. There's nothing magical about anglo-saxon blood that makes it the only one that's likely to play D&D.  And there are no fucking conditions in South America that makes the hobby's success unlikely, no less unlikely than in Spain or Germany; and the possible sources of difficulty in places like India and China would be minor compared to the potential for success.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521526It was. It still could be.

I hope you can make it happen.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;521471I wouldn't put so much into his words. Racism is pretty rampant in poland.

Germans aren't a race.

Quote from: RPGPundit;521529I would say the kind of political instability you see in Venezuela right now would probably be unhelpful for the likelihood of a nascent RPG market.

On the other hand and again to counteract the "they all live in mud huts and serve the generalisimo" nonsense, Uruguay, Argentina and Brazil have all had stable democracies for almost 30 years now, and weren't exactly the Killing Fields of Cambodia even during their dictatorships.

Really I don't know how much more effectively I can explain this: these countries have all the same kids wanting to play all the same games as in Wisconsin. There's nothing magical about anglo-saxon blood that makes it the only one that's likely to play D&D.  And there are no fucking conditions in South America that makes the hobby's success unlikely, no less unlikely than in Spain or Germany; and the possible sources of difficulty in places like India and China would be minor compared to the potential for success.

RPGPundit

Pundit, is the biggest barrier on the publishing end in your opinion, just a matter of a getting translated editions of the games out there? Or is translation even an issue; alot of our customers from countries like Germany and France seem to have no problem understanding and using our RPGs (which are all in English).

Brendan, in my experience that is mainly because of how many people have access to affordable ways to learn decent English.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;521662Pundit, is the biggest barrier on the publishing end in your opinion, just a matter of a getting translated editions of the games out there? Or is translation even an issue; alot of our customers from countries like Germany and France seem to have no problem understanding and using our RPGs (which are all in English).

There used to be a lot of RPGs that got translated into german. Though most people didn't want to wait for the translation, so most groups played with the english rules anyway and the companies stopped translating.
Also, most translations were extremely terrible and often riddled with errors.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;521662Pundit, is the biggest barrier on the publishing end in your opinion, just a matter of a getting translated editions of the games out there? Or is translation even an issue; alot of our customers from countries like Germany and France seem to have no problem understanding and using our RPGs (which are all in English).

I don't live in Latin America, but I'd like to give my uninformed opinion anyway.

The biggest barrier, in my humble opinion, is that there is no local industry (except in Brazil, more about it later). This means all RPGs, whether they are written in English or Spanish, have to be imported from somewhere else (the USA, the UK, Spain, etc), which can get expensive when you compare the exchange rate of the Argentine Peso to the US Dollar or the Euro.

As I said, Brazil is the exception to the rule. Devir, a Brazilian firm, publishes D&D, GURPS, and World of Darkness in Brazil. They got so big that they created Devir Iberia, the publishers of D&D in Spain. The question is, if Devir has the rights to D&D in both Portuguese and Spanish, why don't they make the effort to promote D&D in Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia etc? After all, Argentina is closer to Brazil than Spain is. I wish I had the answer to this question.

And I have another question, why aren't there local publishers of RPGs in Argentina and Uruguay? In many countries of Europe, where the hobby gets strong enough, there always appears someone who thinks "I can write an RPG too". The hobby is strong in Argentina, but there are no Argentine RPGs as far  as I know. I wonder why.

Maybe I'll go to an Argentine RPG forum, like Derol (http://www.derol.com.ar/foro/) (the old Juegos de que), and I'll ask them.

Quote from: Claudius;521799(...)In many countries of Europe, where the hobby gets strong enough, there always appears someone who thinks "I can write an RPG too".(...)

Unfortunately not all efforts are equally worthwhile. Then again, I'm not even sure if the hobby is "strong enough" here... :rolleyes:

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;521662Pundit, is the biggest barrier on the publishing end in your opinion, just a matter of a getting translated editions of the games out there? Or is translation even an issue; alot of our customers from countries like Germany and France seem to have no problem understanding and using our RPGs (which are all in English).

In places where there's already some nascent gaming community (certainly throughout south america) its not even about translation, no.  Like I said, here in Uruguay everyone pretty well uses the English rulebooks.

Its mainly about awareness and access, ie. distribution.

RPGPundit

Quote from: DominikSchwager;521725There used to be a lot of RPGs that got translated into german. Though most people didn't want to wait for the translation, so most groups played with the english rules anyway and the companies stopped translating.
Also, most translations were extremely terrible and often riddled with errors.

It was exactly the same case here with spanish translations.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Claudius;521799And I have another question, why aren't there local publishers of RPGs in Argentina and Uruguay? In many countries of Europe, where the hobby gets strong enough, there always appears someone who thinks "I can write an RPG too". The hobby is strong in Argentina, but there are no Argentine RPGs as far  as I know. I wonder why.

Maybe I'll go to an Argentine RPG forum, like Derol (http://www.derol.com.ar/foro/) (the old Juegos de que), and I'll ask them.

Yeah, that's a total mystery to me.  Uruguay maybe because its a tiny country, but Argentina is huge, has a relatively big middle class, has a thriving gaming community already, and yet no one there has ever produced a local RPG for publication.

RPGPundit