Quote from: robiswrong;752092But the Dragaeran example was interesting because of the *culture* and political systems, not because of the pointy ears.  Most "interesting" races would be exactly as interesting if you turned them into humans with the same culture.

Then you run into the problem of "ho-hum. Generic Human on human culture war #5639..." Like in some space themed settings. "Oh its just all humans. Again..."

Others really get into that. The conflict of human ideology. Others want human only and NO cultural difference. Just explore. Possibly run into alien ANIMALS. But no advanced aliens.

Totally a personal taste thing.

Funny example: When Ironclaw came out some asked "Why arent they all  humans?" Answer. Easy enough to do.

Not so funny funny example. When Maus came out some people asked. "Why arent they all humans?" That misses the point of the story and the visual representations. And this was the authors way of coping with and writing down the things he experienced.

Someone IS going to want all humans, someone IS going to despise all humans.

Figure out what your players lean to and work it accordingly.

Quote from: robiswrong;752087So why couldn't the Dragaerans been humans of a different culture?

As to that ... what Doughdee didn't mention was that the series is set in the Dragaeran Empire, where humans are a tiny (and disliked) minority and the culture is overwhelmingly Dragaeran.  The Dragaerans call themselves "humans" -- the degree to which they're racially distinct is that they're a good bit taller than humans and have somewhat tapered features.  No pointy ears.  The only recurring character who uses the term "elves" is the (human) protagonist's grandfather, an old fashioned fellow from the Old Country.  What Dragaerans call humans are "Easterners" or "Fenarians" if they're being civil, and various slurs if they're not.

The protagonist is only mildly bugged by this, being a 3rd generation immigrant, but gets more touchy about it as the series progresses, partially in contact with his wife, who's something of a human rights activist.

I generally have the standard D&D races in D&D settings either because it's a published setting, or I want to run published adventures. However I'll tend to present it as humanocentric, with other races rare - so I'll ignore eg 3e D&D default demographics, were every little village has a diverse array of non-human races. Most settlements IMCs tend to be 99% human with the occasional dwarf or half-elf.

I'm pretty sure the default D&D setting already IS overwhelmingly humanocentric.

Quote from: Axiomatic;752504I'm pretty sure the default D&D setting already IS overwhelmingly humanocentric.

The setting might be, but it's rarely reflected in PC parties or their interaction with the world. It's not uncommon to have a party with no humans at all, or at best a token human - I see it all the time in actual play write-ups and other sources. Everyone leaps for the exotic. Yet that seems to have no impact whatsoever on how they get about the world.

Quote from: Kiero;752513The setting might be, but it's rarely reflected in PC parties or their interaction with the world. It's not uncommon to have a party with no humans at all, or at best a token human - I see it all the time in actual play write-ups and other sources. Everyone leaps for the exotic. Yet that seems to have no impact whatsoever on how they get about the world.

Yeah, pretty much.  How many parties ever have to put up with a racially hostile town?  A shopkeeper spitting on the ground and growling "Your silver's no good here.  We don't serve your kind in this town.  Freak."

Quote from: Ravenswing;752562Yeah, pretty much.  How many parties ever have to put up with a racially hostile town?  A shopkeeper spitting on the ground and growling "Your silver's no good here.  We don't serve your kind in this town.  Freak."

This was a big part of the Ravenloft setting. Demihumans did exist but they were feared and distrusted. In one domain they were even branded.

Quote from: Omega;752166Then you run into the problem of "ho-hum. Generic Human on human culture war #5639..." Like in some space themed settings. "Oh its just all humans. Again..."

Then make the cultures non-generic.  That's the real problem, and just putting pointy ears on one dull culture doesn't really help.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with having non-human races.  I just don't buy into the "humans are boring, non-humans are interesting" argument.  Mostly I just find that it's a matter of the human cultures that people coming up with being boring.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;752563This was a big part of the Ravenloft setting. Demihumans did exist but they were feared and distrusted. In one domain they were even branded.

It's also important in Birthright's Cerilia.

Also has presence in Forgotten Realms relations, like Horde, Kara-Tur, Maztica and its conquest, the Lands of Intrigue with Amn (Maztica colonizers) and Calimshan, etc.

I'm reading Thyatis & Alsatia of Mystara Known World, and prejudice is there and denoted. It was in Hollow World, too. Jakandor plays upon this tension heavily.

Even Planescape, the motley crew of settings, plays on the whole in-group v. out-group tension.

But something all changed, roughly after 2000 :rolleyes: ... somehow motley crews in egalitarian cosmopolitan backwaters became the norm. Now I see PF has introduced the joys of anachronisms to the fold. Geau effortless cross-classing!

I have the bones of a fantasy homebrew world that I came up with when I was fifteen, and for ease of inspiration (and nostalgia, and in recognition of the countless hours I spent mapping it and living in it in my head back then!), when I started gaming again recently I pulled out my old stuff and started working up some of the areas I hadn't used so much back then ...

But there was one big change. The countless dwarven strongholds in the mighty mountain ranges, the whole COUNTRIES overrun by orcs, the "City of the Dead" controlled by an ancient lich and his undead hordes ... all gone. Out the window. No more civilisations of demi-humans or goblinoids. No, all the cultures were to be human, and actually HAVE a culture, and interact with each other. This is not to say that there are only humans in the world, but just that humans have pretty much only ever seen other humans, unless they venture into the wild or dabble in magic (which very very few now do).

So yes, there are elves, but they're not playable, they're ancient, alien, inhuman, wild fae-creatures. Much more like Changling : The Lost's True Fae, or indeed elves as described in Pratchett's Lords and Ladies. I think he got them so right. That's also how they are in the Irish legends that I'm drawing on for the particular region I'm setting a planned campaign in, where elves can be dealt with and bargained with, but never understood, trusted, or played as characters. Equally, there may be dwarves, or gnomes, or at least small, stunted "faeries" who live underground, but not in vast cities; rather as isolated and weird, horrific remnants of creatures from before the rise of humanity. Basically, all of the demi-humans go into the same bracket as things like dryads, satyrs, selkies, swanmays, goblins, ogres, trolls, etc. They are all creatures of "Faery", and very rarely to be met. When they are, I want them to be the objects of wonder, terror, and a real feel of magical weirdness.

If I need something to feel the "humanoids" category, I'm thinking of going for "degenerate" human tribes that are cannibals, worship horrific gods, etc; I think it's a very good point about Firefly, and how having all humans stops you sweeping moral questions under the carpet because all "orcs" or "klingons" are just like that ... The fact that the marauders on the hulk-ships in Firefly (forget what they were called) were once human, and were now chaos degenerate cannibal rapists, well ... that made them more horrifying than orcs can ever be ...

Quote from: Ravenswing;752562Yeah, pretty much.  How many parties ever have to put up with a racially hostile town?  A shopkeeper spitting on the ground and growling "Your silver's no good here.  We don't serve your kind in this town.  Freak."

I'm pretty sure that spitting on the ground in front of adventurers is selected against by evolution. Over years, the setting very quickly becomes composed exclusively out of towns that didn't spit in front of the adventurers.

Quote from: Axiomatic;753122I'm pretty sure that spitting on the ground in front of adventurers is selected against by evolution. Over years, the setting very quickly becomes composed exclusively out of towns that didn't spit in front of the adventurers.

Exactly. There is a reason you become an adventurer and it isn't because you're Joe Average.

Quote from: Axiomatic;753122I'm pretty sure that spitting on the ground in front of adventurers is selected against by evolution. Over years, the setting very quickly becomes composed exclusively out of towns that didn't spit in front of the adventurers.

Mercenaries tend to die when they get uppity, especially when their numbers are less than an army. They're hired because they are expendable, nothing more. Better Than Joe Average still dies surrounded by a hostile world of Joe Averages.

Quote from: Axiomatic;753122I'm pretty sure that spitting on the ground in front of adventurers is selected against by evolution. Over years, the setting very quickly becomes composed exclusively out of towns that didn't spit in front of the adventurers.

Or ... we have an alternate paradigm.  One where the local authorities are in hot pursuit of the bandit band who murdered Master Minoru the apothecary in cold blood, and where -- if they get away -- their names and descriptions are circulated around the realm, with large prices on their heads.  Ones that other bands of adventu -- err, bounty hunters -- are very pleased to seek to collect.

Not so hard of a band to find, after all -- it was full of those freaks!  Doesn't this prove that they're all slavering murderers, just waiting to slaughter good and decent humans?  Kill them all, we say!

Quote from: Opaopajr;753165Mercenaries tend to die when they get uppity, especially when their numbers are less than an army. They're hired because they are expendable, nothing more. Better Than Joe Average still dies surrounded by a hostile world of Joe Averages.

I've never done this, but reading it has caused an evil thought to cross my mind, using a historical narrative. You arrive at a town where the locals seemed dressed up in their finery, only to reach the center, where they are burning the genitals off a hanged body, with a celebratory manner. It happened, it begs a question to as what they do; however I'm going to skip this scenario for real.