I'm "new" to OSR (maybe been reading about it for the past year or so), and I'm only vagualy familiar with Zak S.
Now that he's being censored, I'm wondering....what is being censored?
I'm just trying to learn more about the "history" of OSR, and also looking for some cool tables or posts when I can find them....not really interested in anyone's personal life. (If he did bad things, I don't support those bad things, but I also don't know, just looking for the osr stuff here)
So what are his greatest works?
Zak is persona non grata because he was accused of being a manipulative, abusive a-hole (charges I find quite believable).
His biggest accomplishments are A Red and Pleasant Land and Vornheim. I've personally never found his work interesting and always disliked him personally, but I don't believe he or anyone else should be censored.
Quote from: HappyRogue;1140329So what are his greatest works?
It's not like there are so many books to which he contributed, so:
A Red and Pleasant Land (setting based on a surrealistic variation of Alice in Wonderland with vampires)
Vornheim (weird fantasy city kit)
Frostbitten & Mutilated (setting based on cannibalistic cold-climate Amazons)
Maze of the Blue Medusa ("artpunk" megadungeon with a deep study on how to best use layout to make the book more usable at the table; note that Zak mostly contributed art to this one, as the writing is mostly by Patrick Stuart)
Demon City (modern-day horror RPG; successfully Kickstarted, book has not yet been completed; this is also a book with several people working on it)
In general, Zak's works are of excellent quality but he has a very specific aestethic and you need to grok it, or the books will fall flat for you. I suggest you google his paintings (his "real" work is art), they will give you a good idea of what's going on through his mind.
I've played in a DCC campaign that used both Red And Pleasant Land and Vornheim, lots of fun was had... though being a Player I wasn't clear where the edges were... where we left one setting for another.
As a GM I've only used Vornheim, and no two Vornheims are the same, but I thought it was excellent inspiration for urban adventures.
Maze of the Blue Medusa has a good reputation but I've not seen it in play yet.
Quote from: Simlasa;1140332Maze of the Blue Medusa has a good reputation but I've not seen it in play yet.
Fun but high on the weird factor, and both GMs and players need to embrace the weird. Being slightly tipsy is not a bad idea.
As a physical object, the hardcover is the single nicest RPG volume I have ever seen. Solid, well-constructed from quality materials.
I'm into more traditional OSR works. D&D B/X is my jam. I do like some of the mechanics found in Lamentations of the Flame Princess, but I've never liked the in your face weird and gross-out horror of the game and its various associated products. I have zero interest in those aesthetics.
Having said that, I found Vornheim to be awesome.
It seems like his main claim to fame was the "D&D with Porn Stars" series 10 years ago. I feel like that got embraced by the hipster RPG crowd as 'cool' or 'edgy' or something, and then when it turned out that porn stars/stripppers aren't the healthiest role models(who'd of thunk it?) they turned on Zak S hard. I'm not saying he isn't a dirt bag, but I feel like he was purged so hard in part to protect the 'it was a cool scene' vibe.
I have found at the table, with his products and almost all of the LotFP line, you have to be more subtle than the vibe you get from reading it and looking at the art. Horror and weird has always worked best for me when it is wrapped in the mundane.
I separate the art from the artist, and there are some really good ideas and tools to work with.
Quote from: FingerRod;1140360Horror and weird has always worked best for me when it is wrapped in the mundane.
Yeah, that's always the case from what I've seen. I like gonzo, but it needs contrast. Having seen Zak (and Raggi) in games, they're not constantly set to 11 either... but I don't need/want pre-fab adventures focused on the 'normal' stuff that I can easily think of myself... I want that outre inspiration to yank me in new directions.
Quote from: FingerRod;1140360I have found at the table, with his products and almost all of the LotFP line, you have to be more subtle than the vibe you get from reading it and looking at the art. Horror and weird has always worked best for me when it is wrapped in the mundane.
I separate the art from the artist, and there are some really good ideas and tools to work with.
I try to separate the art from the artist but it's difficult for me to do. I was seriously considering playing Shadow of the Demon Lord, went to Schwalb's website, and saw his self aggrandizing post of the receipt of the donation he made to the bail project and was instantly turned off of playing his game. I also refuse to use Roll20 because of their woke politics, despite knowing the product itself is good.
Quote from: kidkaos2;1140457I try to separate the art from the artist but it's difficult for me to do. I was seriously considering playing Shadow of the Demon Lord, went to Schwalb's website, and saw his self aggrandizing post of the receipt of the donation he made to the bail project and was instantly turned off of playing his game. I also refuse to use Roll20 because of their woke politics, despite knowing the product itself is good.
Greetings!
Welcome to our website!
My salute! Do not feel reticent, or filled with doubt. Your actions concerning not buying from such RPG companies or embracing their corrupt products reflects the fact that you have *CHARACTER* and *PRINCIPLES*--which is awesome! :D Stand up, and fight back! Resist these wormy fucking Marxists!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Frostbitten & Mutilated is good Hard R dark fantasy with truly vile amazon enemies worthy of fear. Easily portable into Warhammer Fantasy as "Dark Elves in Norsca".
I haven't run Vornheim as a setting, but I've gleamed much use out of it as a toolkit. It's packed with interesting ideas worthy considering, even if you might not use them. The high value I put on the book is that it's born from actual play, not author musing.
I worked the LA pron industry as an editor in college (3/4 tape baby!), so none of the ZakS drama comes as a surprise to me. His "rise and fall" is very Hollywood, and I'm interested to see what his Act 2 will be, either in the art world or the RPG world.
I ran a great decadent city OD&D campaign using Vornheim for a few years. I'd recommend it. It's the kind of book that is useful in play at the table. If you want a strange countryside/neighboring city states, I'd recommend Yoon Suin by Noisms Games.
Quote from: kidkaos2;1140457I try to separate the art from the artist but it's difficult for me to do. I was seriously considering playing Shadow of the Demon Lord, went to Schwalb's website, and saw his self aggrandizing post of the receipt of the donation he made to the bail project and was instantly turned off of playing his game. I also refuse to use Roll20 because of their woke politics, despite knowing the product itself is good.
Roll20 is mostly garbage. Foundry got released just like a month ago now and is already head and shoulders better than Roll20 as a virtual tabletop and is also a one-time $50 rather than an eternal subscription fee. I strongly recommend checking them or Fantasy Grounds out over Roll20, as they're both superior products in my opinion.
Quote from: Valatar;1140618Roll20 is mostly garbage. Foundry got released just like a month ago now and is already head and shoulders better than Roll20 as a virtual tabletop and is also a one-time $50 rather than an eternal subscription fee. I strongly recommend checking them or Fantasy Grounds out over Roll20, as they're both superior products in my opinion.
Roll20 is awesome if you play 5e.
Foundry is so bloated it's literally not usable with a more simple computer like a chromebook. They tried to do everything with it, making it so that you need a fast PC with a good video card just to use it like it's a video game.
Quote from: Mistwell;1140622Roll20 is awesome if you play 5e.
Foundry is so bloated it's literally not usable with a more simple computer like a chromebook. They tried to do everything with it, making it so that you need a fast PC with a good video card just to use it like it's a video game.
My computers are pretty decent, so I've never had any hitches with Foundry. I know the developer's said he's working on slimming down the footprint, and you can manually adjust some of the graphical bells and whistles like cranking down framerate to make it gentler on system resources, but since I don't have anything at chromebook level I can't really test it myself.
Just for the record, Mike Pondsmith, the creator of the Cyberpunk RPG line and R. Talsorian Games founder also contributed $10,000 to the bail out of rioting/looting/pillaging criminals as well. I rage quit their Discord channel when he announced it.
Quote from: Batjon;1140996Just for the record, Mike Pondsmith, the creator of the Cyberpunk RPG line and R. Talsorian Games founder also contributed $10,000 to the bail out of rioting/looting/pillaging criminals as well. I rage quit their Discord channel when he announced it.
Wrong thread?
Quote from: Batjon;1140996Just for the record, Mike Pondsmith, the creator of the Cyberpunk RPG line and R. Talsorian Games founder also contributed $10,000 to the bail out of rioting/looting/pillaging criminals as well. I rage quit their Discord channel when he announced it.
Well done you. By how much did your toys clear the pram?
Alternatively, you might want to read what someone, who at some level you repect, has said about your (all you Merkins) situation: https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/
I'd ask Pondsmith - "What in the fuck does any of this have to do with giving money to rioters from Antifa that have infiltrated and use BLM as cover for their Marxist agenda?" You know... doing things that the cops *have* to deal with as part of their job? Or not... depending on the city.
Quote from: Anselyn;1141027Well done you. By how much did your toys clear the pram?
Alternatively, you might want to read what someone, who at some level you repect, has said about your (all you Merkins) situation: https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/
BLM thugs and Antifa terrorists are not the solution. Mike is adding to the problem like a idiot. The solution is to end the unions so the heads of the police can fire the shits out of the force.
NOW BACK TO TOPIC!
Other than Demon City I think I own just about every book he has in pdf at least. I don't like ZakS, but I like his work. I think his best one is Maze of the Blue Medusa. A huge hulking mega dungeon that is art museum filled with the ancient dead is pretty trippy. The fact you can port this to any game is handy for a few sessions too.
So now instead of people saying, 'I disagree with his support for BLM' we're getting "Here are a bunch of arguments against BLM which has fuck-all to do with RPGs which I have tenuously linked to one RPG guy who says he supports BLM so I can try and get away with posting all my reasons why BLM sucks on TheRPGsite while skirting the no-politics rule".
Fucking lovely.
How about we talk about Zak's RPG stuff?
I happened to like his "edits" to the Monster Manual he was posting on G+ before that went down. Great improvements to what were otherwise hard to use or boring monsters.
Sad to hear about Maximum Mike. Thought he was smarter than that.
Oh well, that's more money saved.
Quote from: Mistwell;1141080So now instead of people saying, 'I disagree with his support for BLM' we're getting "Here are a bunch of arguments against BLM which has fuck-all to do with RPGs which I have tenuously linked to one RPG guy who says he supports BLM so I can try and get away with posting all my reasons why BLM sucks on TheRPGsite while skirting the no-politics rule".
Fucking lovely.
Since you mention it. If I give my money to someone that gives that money to an organization that ideologically is opposed to everything I believe in, everything my nation is about, everything my father and forefathers bled for, and in fact if that organization practices an ideology that would ultimately harm me and my loved ones were it to be adopted writ-large... am I not enabling my own problems?
Yeah see, I don't do that. I get it's a popular thing for ignorant people, I'm not one of them. I could spin yarns and yarns of anecdotal bad-cop stories that are *orders of magnitude* worse than Pondsmiths... but his reasoning is completely at odds with his actions. Which is why it breaks my heart that he did what he did. Pondsmith *is* my favorite game-designer. And now I can't support him.
I *agree* with Mike on wanting GOOD policing, and GOOD police reform (i.e. more training). But bailing out ANTIFA Marxist Rioters has *
nothing* to do with police reform. I'm going to give you more credit than you probably deserve in understanding that glaring difference. But if you want to prove me wrong... I won't be entirely surprised.
As for Zak... eh, take him or leave him. I honestly don't care about his private affairs, and nor do I believe *anyone* involved in them. I like his art - but not for my gaming. I don't care for his game-design, but that's entirely because of my personal tastes in how I GM - I don't find I get a lot of use out of his material. But I love that other people do. So if you like that stuff support him. If not? Move on.
Quote from: tenbones;1141132Pondsmith *is* my favorite game-designer. And now I can't support him.
Fuck. I know how excited you were about Cyberpunk 2077.
I was going to get the CP77 RPG core book, and I was considering a new gaming rig if the video game proved to be what the trailers have promised.
But "honor thy father" always comes ahead of "me wanty new shiny".
Quote from: Batjon;1140996Just for the record, Mike Pondsmith, the creator of the Cyberpunk RPG line and R. Talsorian Games founder also contributed $10,000 to the bail out of rioting/looting/pillaging criminals as well. I rage quit their Discord channel when he announced it.
Can you provide a source for this? Funding BLM & Antifa seems contradictory to his very reasonable stated position. Very disappointing if true.
I only see $2000 to the Bail Project.
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/06/09/mike-pondsmiths-r-talsorian-games-issues-statement-in-response-to-current-events-following-the-death-of-george-floyd/
And from Talsorian's page
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/05/from-the-screamsheets-a-statement-by-rtg/
Is anyone going to Purity Test Zak? (see I'm keeping it on topic).
I like Zak's stuff, never met the guy and try to separate creation from creator. Vornheim is really useful - mostly a set of thought-provoking random tables that will weird-up any campaign city, but in a good way. I like red and pleasant land, but doubt I'll run it, however it does have lots of great ideas in it. I've skimmed his other stuff at cons (but not bought it) and it seems to be in the same vein. So, I'd get Vornheim if you have any interest in spicing up your fantasy cities, the others if you like weird, slightly gonzo fantasy.
Quote from: tenbones;1141154I only see $2000 to the Bail Project.
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/06/09/mike-pondsmiths-r-talsorian-games-issues-statement-in-response-to-current-events-following-the-death-of-george-floyd/
Looking at The Bail Project's website, it doesn't seem to be an overtly extremist (eg Communist and/or race-hate) organisation, though they say they have 'radical roots'. They claim to align with the ACLU. Is it a Communist front organisation? I don't see any 'kill whitey' or 'smash capitalism' stuff on the site. Is donating to it really the same as donating to BLM or Antifa?
Quote from: tenbones;1141046I'd ask Pondsmith - "What in the fuck does any of this have to do with giving money to rioters from Antifa that have infiltrated and use BLM as cover for their Marxist agenda?" You know... doing things that the cops *have* to deal with as part of their job? Or not... depending on the city.
Given the current trend of rpg professionals "suddenly" jumping on the virtue signalling SJW bandwagon he will probably ignore you as it goes against his new found social justice warrior narrative. I get the point he is trying to make about the police yet I did see nothing from him and many other rpg professionals criticizing the rioters or Antifa. I hope his sudden new found social justice warrior conscience gives him ore sales.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1141109Sad to hear about Maximum Mike. Thought he was smarter than that.
Oh well, that's more money saved.
it's not like his company was making tons of money or that many of the IPs he owned were played in my neck of the woods. Get woke go broke.
As for Zaks and his works what I read with reviews and heard did not interest me in the least.
Look, I'm not saying Pondsmith has become some kind of raging SJW. I don't believe he is.
Do I think he's virtue-signaling? Not really. I *believe* him because I know exactly what his point of view on the police are. I just do not draw the connection between the need for policing to be reformed - and he cites some very good ideas I agree with (not all of them) - but that's an entirely different discussion.
Giving material support to an organization to bail out rioters?? Whether you're a useful-idiot, or an Antifa die-hard, in what universe are we engaging in where rioting and burning down buildings, looting and destroying businesses (most of whom are small localized ones) and hurting and maiming others - including police - the *solution* to perceived problems?
Bailing out rioters is directly harmful to my fellow citizens for *bad* reasons. I don't care if Pondsmith is giving money to an organization (which likely absorbs most of that money themselves) - or if he's giving money to the holding officers and bailing them out directly. What are the natural outcomes of those actions? It should be obvious. Why would I support someone that does that? Why would I buy a product that portions off some of that purchase for the express purpose that prolongs more injustice? More potential suffering of innocent people?
His reasoning is anecdotally driven - which I get. The response is a bridge to far for me. Just because *my* personal business wasn't burned down doesn't mean I should suddenly lose sight of the real-world consequences of supporting these idiots who follow a false cause in the name ulterior-motives of bad actors. NO one is just "collateral damage" and should be shrugged off if the purpose is seeking justice.
As for the ACLU - they are *now* a hyper-partisan advocate for leftist policies. This has been going on for years.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-aclu-is-getting-involved-in-elections-and-reinventing-itself-for-the-trump-era
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-expression-1529533065
Censorship is rampant now in journalism - and the ACLU is noticeably silent. Or at minimum they pick-and-choose when they engage and when expedient. Their current leader Anthony Romero is radical leftist who refers to the ACLU's original mission of being non-partisan as the philosophy of "the old guard". You see this during the Kavanaugh case where they were running slanderous hit-pieces on Kavanaugh that were completely beyond the scope of their mission (and flat out unproven)
They pick and choose, NOW, what is "Free Speech" - they now cite "Hate Speech" should not be protected.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/20180621ACLU.pdf?mod=article_inline
They now have lawsuits to block rules that support due-process, where once they literally used to support the presumption of innocence as a principle of the law.
blah blah blah I could go on... TL/DR the ACLU of today is the antithesis of the ACLU of yesterday.
Quote from: S'mon;1141151Can you provide a source for this? Funding BLM & Antifa seems contradictory to his very reasonable stated position. Very disappointing if true.
It was announced in their Discord server in the main channel.
Here is the link to his post on the website about it also:
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/05/from-the-screamsheets-a-statement-by-rtg/ (https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/05/from-the-screamsheets-a-statement-by-rtg/)
Here is the announcement on their official Discord server: https://img.techpowerup.org/200723/rtal.jpg (https://img.techpowerup.org/200723/rtal.jpg)
Quote from: Luca;1140331It's not like there are so many books to which he contributed, so:
A Red and Pleasant Land (setting based on a surrealistic variation of Alice in Wonderland with vampires)
Vornheim (weird fantasy city kit)
Frostbitten & Mutilated (setting based on cannibalistic cold-climate Amazons)
Maze of the Blue Medusa ("artpunk" megadungeon with a deep study on how to best use layout to make the book more usable at the table; note that Zak mostly contributed art to this one, as the writing is mostly by Patrick Stuart)
Demon City (modern-day horror RPG; successfully Kickstarted, book has not yet been completed; this is also a book with several people working on it)
In general, Zak's works are of excellent quality but he has a very specific aestethic and you need to grok it, or the books will fall flat for you. I suggest you google his paintings (his "real" work is art), they will give you a good idea of what's going on through his mind.
His works are typical OSR, but with a bit of arty-fartyness. His writing and ideas he brings to the table are a lot of random tables and a lot of random ideas. I like this kind of grab bag of ideas, because I find most of those ideas and random tables of the OSR in general quite handy for building settings and npc's and coming up with quest ideas for my players. In rpg land they often say 'YMMV' and my mileage with OSR titles in general is pretty high. I find at least 80% of the ideas they bring to the table useful and Zak's work is no different.
What makes it different then? Well, the art style. I like his art style personally just for the sake of being different than usual. And his writing style is a bit more scatterbrained than normal which I can live with. As for the person himself? I really don't care. He does have a lot of internet drama hanging onto him and I think he would be smart to ignore all of it instead of always trying to defend himself. He keeps rubbing the stain.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;1141846He does have a lot of internet drama hanging onto him and I think he would be smart to ignore all of it instead of always trying to defend himself. He keeps rubbing the stain.
I'd think it's hard to ignore people who are actively seeking out your every mention and attempting to banish you, forever. I mean, I guess he could turn his back on RPGs altogether, just focus on his career as gallery artist.
Quote from: Batjon;1141341Here is the link to his post on the website about it also:
https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/05/from-the-screamsheets-a-statement-by-rtg/ (https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/05/from-the-screamsheets-a-statement-by-rtg/)
And that's all the proof I need. Such as shame, but its not a big surprise. They think their capitulation to Burn Loot Murder will buy them good reviews when the video game hits the market and they can get book sales in return.
At best, its cynical capitulation to maximize dollars. Either way, it won't be my dollars or my time spent sharing or promoting their games. Which is sad because Pondsmith was a kickass game designer.
What has the Bail Project got to do with BLM?
I mean if you want to boycott RTG it's your choice, knock yourself out. But at least do it for a real, existing reason...
Quote from: Luca;1142093What has the Bail Project got to do with BLM?
I mean if you want to boycott RTG it's your choice, knock yourself out. But at least do it for a real, existing reason...
Seen news reports that organizations like this have been bailing out BLM "protestors" who were arrested so they can come back and riot again the next night...
Most people arrested are not rioters. Most arrests are just non-violent protesters sitting in the street after curfew. Actual rioters often run and hide. So I think it's erroneous to continue to claim this is money going to bail out rioters. It's money going primarily to peaceful non-violent people sitting and chanting a slogan in a street after curfew as their method of protest.
As for works by Zak S, anyone know if he is working on anything new these days? I contacted him recently on Facebook asking if he might start podcasts and he didn't seem into that for now.
Quote from: Luca;1142093What has the Bail Project got to do with BLM?
AntiFart and their Marxist allies can't earn their Burn Loot Murder cred while locked up. Thus, the Bail Project gets them back on the street ASAP to continue their "mostly peaceful protests" that keep resulting in destroyed businesses, smashed up taxpayer property and dead (mostly black) people.
Pondsmith's money is a direct vote for more "mostly peaceful protests".
If the arrested asshats sat in jail and the rest of the asshats knew they'd be joining them in jail, a lot fewer incidents would be happening. But clowns like Pondsmith are fueling the riots by ensuring the revolving jail door spins even faster.
Having met Pondsmith years ago (and believe me, living in a country where white Christians love to beat up White Christians, meeting a black man was memorable enough, never mind one who was amazing), I think he's on the money.
I don't get the ANTIFA hate. I mean "here", AntiFa is literally what it says. They're anti-fascists. That's a good thing, right? Or who do people root for when watching Captain America movies? I mean, the Hydra guys are meant to be the baddies. And BLM....well....lots of people will use a legitimate protest to cause trouble. We've seen that here in Northern Ireland for decades. Usually some idiots follow the protestors down, they set fire to local shops and then two days later complain they don't have a local shop....
Pondsmith donated to bail funds? I mean, maybe I'm insulated from this but I watched video. of a police officer (Chauvin, tax dodger) kill a man by putting his knee on a mans neck (GF). Some people protested. I think this is a good thing. Since then people tear gassed in Washington DC, people being disappeared off the streets in Portland and now rumours of the election being delayed? I think there's bad shit going on but we're focusing on Pondsmith?
Because Pondsmith donated to a bail fund. The monster.
I don't know who this Zak fucker is. I don't care. I've not read his books. I'm more interested now he's been cancelled. If I had to cancel every rPG writer for being a bit of a dick, I'd have empty shelves.
The only two game devs that I've met who were thoroughly decent people AT THE TIME, were Mike Pondsmith and Steve Jackson. And I met a lot when I was running conventions. Most of them were sleazy fucks who were just milking the groupies. (I would have had the opportunity but I fucking hate humans at the best of times so that's not going to work for me). We pick and choose who we hate the same way the Faithers pick and choose which parts of their holy book to follow. Kevin Spacey bad. John Peel good. Roman Polanski bad? Woody Allen...who the fuck cares.
Personally I'm tired of the woke crowd who want to cancel someone for doing "blackface" when they were dressed as a fucking Dark Elf. And the "Orcs are people too" threads? Fuck sake. And yeah, one of my favourite people is Rowling because she's the only billionaire I've heard of who paid her fucking taxes AND lost her position as a billionaire through donating to charity.
Is Zak S a monster? Probably. Is he any worse than any other fucker? Probably not. His frost bitten amazons sound cool. Might borrow them for my own game.
Quote from: Mistwell;1142206Most people arrested are not rioters. Most arrests are just non-violent protesters sitting in the street after curfew. Actual rioters often run and hide. So I think it's erroneous to continue to claim this is money going to bail out rioters. It's money going primarily to peaceful non-violent people sitting and chanting a slogan in a street after curfew as their method of protest.
As for works by Zak S, anyone know if he is working on anything new these days? I contacted him recently on Facebook asking if he might start podcasts and he didn't seem into that for now.
You need to supply a source for the statement that those being arrested are mostly peaceful protestors, otherwise it's ideological speculation at best....
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509Having met Pondsmith years ago (and believe me, living in a country where white Christians love to beat up White Christians, meeting a black man was memorable enough, never mind one who was amazing), I think he's on the money.
So not being American, and having not lived here, you should understand the *vast* difference in America in terms of size and place. States in America have a lot of cultural differences especially between the urban and rural environments. LA is *not* like Wichita Falls or Seattle. I can't underscore this enough. He's not *wrong* because he feels policing *generally* could be improved. Police are people. Where you have high-crime police have to deal with that crime on a daily basis and it affects them. This isn't rocket science that the pathos of that goes both ways. This is precisely why they need more training in such places vs. some rural county police where crime is less (but I submit ideally standards should be no less).
Remember there are third parties - everyone else that is not a criminal or police officer. Those people have to live between that dynamic.
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509I don't get the ANTIFA hate. I mean "here", AntiFa is literally what it says. They're anti-fascists.
Because "here" ANTIFA *are* the "fascists". They are politically motivated to destroy our Republic apparently by any means necessary.
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509That's a good thing, right? Or who do people root for when watching Captain America movies? I mean, the Hydra guys are meant to be the baddies.
If you are American (which you're not I know), it's only good if you're a anti-American. BTW - the Captain America movies are my favorite MCU movies. Pretending Antifa are Captain America is laughable. Antifa here are wrecking the lives of normal businesses and attack people fighting for their RIGHTS. They want to crush those Rights. They do it for political reasons. They are Hydra in your analogy. Not the police. And the Police are people. They are not unified in ideology. They're people doing a job - an important one - which needs extra scrutiny. Blaming all police for the actions of a few, by that analogy you should be attacking police in Ireland too - because they do the same job? Seems illogical.
And let's stipulate - life isn't movies. It's far more complex.
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509And BLM....well....lots of people will use a legitimate protest to cause trouble. We've seen that here in Northern Ireland for decades. Usually some idiots follow the protestors down, they set fire to local shops and then two days later complain they don't have a local shop....
BLM the organization that foments these protests do so for their Marxist goals. They're using race-baiting tactics to foment their goals. They're being coddled by the Democratic party and the Media (which is really just an extension of the Democratic party) to pursue their real goals - which is using violence to "defund the police" which only furthers their ultimate goal of deposing establishment Democratic party members with their radicalized Marxist ones. Establishment Democrats court them believing they can control them (they're wrong).
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509Pondsmith donated to bail funds? I mean, maybe I'm insulated from this but I watched video. of a police officer (Chauvin, tax dodger) kill a man by putting his knee on a mans neck (GF). Some people protested. I think this is a good thing. Since then people tear gassed in Washington DC, people being disappeared off the streets in Portland and now rumours of the election being delayed? I think there's bad shit going on but we're focusing on Pondsmith?
What does a bad cop in Minnesota killing a man unjustly, have to do with people rioting in Washington D.C.? Why stop there? Why are people not rioting in Moscow? They have "police" too. If the insinuation is because this one cop is representative of all police is spurious logic. There are bad cops like there are bad doctors. And when it occurs it's BAD. It doesn't mean all cops are bad. The narrative that the policing system is dedicated to targeting minorities is not supported by facts - and we ALL have anecdotal stories (my own are far worse than Pondsmiths' apparently) relating to police. Could they use more training? Sure. Who couldn't use more training in their craft?
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509Because Pondsmith donated to a bail fund. The monster.
Rioting and protesting are two different things. Protesting the appearance of foul play is perfectly fine. Destroying innocent businesses and accosting people violently for not agreeing with you is not. Rioting for political motivations that have nothing to do with the optics of former - is seditious.
Bailing those people out of jail to do more of the latter? WHY? Unless you're wanting more innocent people to get hurt and have their lives destroyed, and want to dismantle the nation one brick at a time - why would you support that?
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509I don't know who this Zak fucker is. I don't care. I've not read his books. I'm more interested now he's been cancelled. If I had to cancel every rPG writer for being a bit of a dick, I'd have empty shelves.
The only two game devs that I've met who were thoroughly decent people AT THE TIME, were Mike Pondsmith and Steve Jackson. And I met a lot when I was running conventions. Most of them were sleazy fucks who were just milking the groupies. (I would have had the opportunity but I fucking hate humans at the best of times so that's not going to work for me). We pick and choose who we hate the same way the Faithers pick and choose which parts of their holy book to follow. Kevin Spacey bad. John Peel good. Roman Polanski bad? Woody Allen...who the fuck cares.
Personally I'm tired of the woke crowd who want to cancel someone for doing "blackface" when they were dressed as a fucking Dark Elf. And the "Orcs are people too" threads? Fuck sake. And yeah, one of my favourite people is Rowling because she's the only billionaire I've heard of who paid her fucking taxes AND lost her position as a billionaire through donating to charity.
Is Zak S a monster? Probably. Is he any worse than any other fucker? Probably not. His frost bitten amazons sound cool. Might borrow them for my own game.
Apply your own logic to the police. Are there monsters with badges among them? Yes. Just like there are monsters with stethoscopes. Just like there are monsters with political position of power that can kill thousands of people unknown to you. It doesn't mean that those jobs themselves don't produce things that are good.
"Good" of course is relative to your goals. Here in America - we ostensibly value fairness and the rule of law. Your mileage may vary, as you can see.
Quote from: Pelorus;1142509I don't get the ANTIFA hate. I mean "here", AntiFa is literally what it says. They're anti-fascists. That's a good thing, right?
Well, they're Communist (Anarcho-Communist, supposedly) first, Anti-Fascist (actually Anti-Nazi) second. I guess if there were a huge Nazi threat they might be of some use. There isn't, there are barely any Nazis to attack, so they attack ordinary people like Donald Trump supporters in the USA, UKIP & Boris Johnson supporters in the UK, Christian Democrats in Germany, etc. The media tend to use them to label people as Nazis - Antifa are Anti-Fascist, so if they attacked you you must be a Nazi, bigot!
I've read the AntiFa handbook and it's clear that "Anti-Fascism" is a tactic for the promotion of Anarcho-Communism, which AFAICT is just Communism, as Totalitarian as ever and sitting comfortably in the horrible end of political ideology.
Edit: This article (https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2020/August/44/8/magazine/article/10886877/) by Paul Gottfried (elderly Jewish paleoconservative academic) on Antifa looks interesting, reading it now.
Second, today’s Antifa and its German counterpart are not derived from traditional Marxist ideology, which appeals to a “science of socialism.” Antifa has no rational or even pseudo-rational plans to reconstruct society, but focuses on venting destructive energy against hate targets. In this tendency, Antifa and its riotous allies seem much more like Nazis than communists or generic Marxists. They illustrate what German philosopher Hermann Rauschning regarded as an essential characteristic of the Nazis, which was a “revolution of nihilism” that presumably would go on and on until it eradicated all inherited moral institutions and marks of human civility.