Running OD&D next week. As the thread title suggests, I am searching for a system, which isn't about exact time-tracking or distances travelled, but not too abstract either. Somewhere in between, so the resource management is still part of the overall upkeep.
Torchbearer has an interesting system for light sources, although it might be too abstract for your tastes.
The basic idea is that each type of light source lasts a number of "turns", which are measured in different units such as: for each room explored, each time that they make camp (unless they have a campfire kit), in minutes/hours/half-days or other such slightly abstract chunks of game time. I suppose that a GM could decide on how long these turns last to suit their tastes.
Each light source illuminates an area measured in "people", not a radius of yards or whatever. Each also puts a few people in "dim light" in which they may have some penalties, unless they have special vision. In complete darkness things are very bad, even if the PC has dark vision, because odds are the rest of the party can't see them and will have trouble helping or finding them.
So a torch might last 4 "turns", illuminates 3 people in normal light and 3 people in dim light. Unlike a lantern, it can be snuffed out by the environment or other GM nastiness.
Quote from: Necrozius;793156Torchbearer has an interesting system for light sources, although it might be too abstract for your tastes.
The basic idea is that each type of light source lasts a number of "turns", which are measured in different units such as: for each room explored, each time that they make camp (unless they have a campfire kit), in minutes/hours/half-days or other such slightly abstract chunks of game time. I suppose that a GM could decide on how long these turns last to suit their tastes.
Each light source illuminates an area measured in "people", not a radius of yards or whatever. Each also puts a few people in "dim light" in which they may have some penalties, unless they have special vision. In complete darkness things are very bad, even if the PC has dark vision, because odds are the rest of the party can't see them and will have trouble helping or finding them.
So a torch might last 4 "turns", illuminates 3 people in normal light and 3 people in dim light. Unlike a lantern, it can be snuffed out by the environment or other GM nastiness.
That sounds quite good actually. Seems abstracted, but not to a degree that you can just handwave the carrying of torches. Illumination measured in people fits perfectly with using minis for marching order.
Thank you! Do I have to buy the game to get a closer look at their approach?
You could probably get enough from the free PDFs available on the official Torchbearer site (http://www.burningwheel.com/store/index.php/torchbearer-free-pdf-bundle.html). I shouldn't be breaking any rules by posting it here cause they're free:
Turns
In these rules, a turn is over after a conflict or some lengthy exploration. After four turns, the adventurers earn a condition (tired, hungry/thirsty, angry etc... this game assumes that dungeoneering is always physically and mentally exhausting). You could probably define the duration of turns to suit your campaign.
Candle
Light: 1 person
Dim Light: 1 person
Lasts: 4 turns
Notes: Candles may be snuffed or blown out due to environmental factors or at the discretion of the GM.
Torch
Light: 2 people
Dim Light: 2 people
Lasts: 2 turns
Notes: Torches may be used as improvised weapons (or as a club). May be snuffed if dropped and/or at the GM's discretion.
Lantern
Light: 3 people
Dim Light: 3 people
Lasts: 3 turns
Notes: Requires a flask of oil as fuel. Provides only dim light if set down.
Darkness (no light)
You cannot perform tasks requiring vision.
Dim Light
Characters near a light source but not covered by it are in dim light. Dim light counts as a factor in all tests requiring vision.
That might help get you started.
Quote from: Necrozius;793171You could probably get enough from the free PDFs available on the official Torchbearer site (http://www.burningwheel.com/store/index.php/torchbearer-free-pdf-bundle.html). I shouldn't be breaking any rules by posting it here cause they're free:
Turns
In these rules, a turn is over after a conflict or some lengthy exploration. After four turns, the adventurers earn a condition (tired, hungry/thirsty, angry etc... this game assumes that dungeoneering is always physically and mentally exhausting). You could probably define the duration of turns to suit your campaign.
Candle
Light: 1 person
Dim Light: 1 person
Lasts: 4 turns
Notes: Candles may be snuffed or blown out due to environmental factors or at the discretion of the GM.
Torch
Light: 2 people
Dim Light: 2 people
Lasts: 2 turns
Notes: Torches may be used as improvised weapons (or as a club). May be snuffed if dropped and/or at the GM's discretion.
Lantern
Light: 3 people
Dim Light: 3 people
Lasts: 3 turns
Notes: Requires a flask of oil as fuel. Provides only dim light if set down.
Darkness (no light)
You cannot perform tasks requiring vision.
Dim Light
Characters near a light source but not covered by it are in dim light. Dim light counts as a factor in all tests requiring vision.
That might help get you started.
Again, thank you. That's enough material to compile my own version.
The OD&D B/X turn system works just fine. A torch burns for 6 turns and a full lantern burns for 24 turns.
Turns are 10 minutes, so 6 per hour. Thus a torch will burn for an hour and a lantern four hours on a single flask of oil.
Somewhere online there is a turn tracker with a little torch icon every sixth turn. Can't remember where I found it. You can print it out and mark off the turns, which will also keep track of torch consumption.
Let's not forget that a torch is a stick on fire. They are not all created equal and they are meant to be carefully carried, not swung about in panic and dropped in combat.
In my OD&D games, you get 5 turns of use from a regular torch, then I roll 1D6 to see how the torch holds up for that final turn, AKA, roll each round and on a 1, it goes out. Of course, these are better quality torches and makeshift torches would be lucky to last 3 turns.
I highly suggest making a torch sometime and taking it outside in the darkness. Even better, take it inside a tunnel or other stone structure. It's a fascinating experiment that will change the way you look at torches in game.
AKA, they are not lanterns or flashlights...
The original Empire of the Petal Throne handled torches quite succinctly: You couldn't fight while holding one, it was just too much of a hassle. No modifiers, no penalty, just NO. You were expected to have slaves or hirelings act as torchbearers.
I always liked the stark simplicity of that.
Plus empire of the Petal Throne also used a # of people per torch mechanic much like torchbearer.
No way! Sword in one hand and torch in the other 4teh win! It's such an iconic image.
Quote from: Spinachcat;793276Let's not forget that a torch is a stick on fire.
Someplace online I read a guy's experiments with making torches. The impromptu ones like people make in movies didn't burn long at all. He researched several types and recorded the times... he did come up with some that needed particular materials and careful assembly that would burn for a couple hours... maybe.
Not that anyone uses torches in our games these days anyway. Our GM used to work as a safety adviser for some of the mines up North... so he's more than happy to let us in on the dangers of running around with open flames in underground passages... or out in the forest... or when standing in a field... or looking around an old house.
Our characters pretty much stick to lanterns now.
Quote from: Spinachcat;793276Let's not forget that a torch is a stick on fire. They are not all created equal and they are meant to be carefully carried, not swung about in panic and dropped in combat.
In my OD&D games, you get 5 turns of use from a regular torch, then I roll 1D6 to see how the torch holds up for that final turn, AKA, roll each round and on a 1, it goes out. Of course, these are better quality torches and makeshift torches would be lucky to last 3 turns.
I highly suggest making a torch sometime and taking it outside in the darkness. Even better, take it inside a tunnel or other stone structure. It's a fascinating experiment that will change the way you look at torches in game.
AKA, they are not lanterns or flashlights...
I know it isn't scientific but I remember watching the movie "Conan the Destroyer" and being surprised at the scene where they walk through a tunnel holding torches. Those torches didn't light up much. It's easy to imagine that in any sizable cave or outdoor environment anything beyond 30 feet would be obscured and deep in shadow. With the torchlight dancing around and the characters waving their arms about the shadows too would be constantly shifting. It would be very difficult to notice anything wanting to hide.
Quote from: Doughdee222;793365Those torches didn't light up much. It's easy to imagine that in any sizable cave or outdoor environment anything beyond 30 feet would be obscured and deep in shadow. With the torchlight dancing around and the characters waving their arms about the shadows too would be constantly shifting. It would be very difficult to notice anything wanting to hide.
I guess you'd be best served by multiple torches, spread out.
I've explored local caves with just a flashlight and while it was a decent source of directional light it gave a sort of flattened impression of everything. I walked right off of a 4ft cliff (actually, fell across an uneven chasm that dropped another 10ft) because it was so hard to see the discrepancy in the ground. Having a couple more lights at different angles would have helped avoid that.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;793294The original Empire of the Petal Throne handled torches quite succinctly: You couldn't fight while holding one, it was just too much of a hassle. No modifiers, no penalty, just NO. You were expected to have slaves or hirelings act as torchbearers.
I always liked the stark simplicity of that.
WHAT!
You haven't adventured until you have hit a monster upside the head with a lit torch!
I set aside a d6 for each lit torch and a d24 for each lit lantern; each turn I roll all the dice set aside, and anything that comes up 1 goes out and gets marked off the character sheet (torch or pint of oil). If one of several torches goes out I declare which one by fiat.
So torches average 6 turns and lanterns/pints 24 turns, exactly their AD&D durations. I don't track when anything was lit other than by setting aside a die; stuff that gets put out and relit I handle by handling the number of dice, since total durations will average out anyway; and rolling the dice is a way of signaling turn boundaries.
Limited light is one of those things that give dungeons a sense of time ticking down and it's really a pretty important part of the game in that sense.
You could always tie torches to the real world clock. That'd help cut the table talk.
How long is your typical dungeon expedition? If it's only a day trip, eight hours should be fine. That's eight torches for one or two people, or 16 for more, or two flasks or candles for a lantern, using the times given up thread.
At start of expedition, figure out how many torches the party has, compared to how many are needed. More than enough? Fine. Don't track during play. Assume party replaces torches as needed, and just deduct the proper number after the party returns. If the party has a flurry of activity that doesn't leave time to relight torches, roll to see if the torches go out. Also make appropriate rolls if something happens that could put out torches. (In od&d this would be 1 or 2 in 6.)
Fewer torches? There may be a chance of being plunged into darkness. Set aside a couple torches for emergency lighting and figure out how long the remaining torches would last. Just keep mental track of the rough number of hours that pass. When you hit the limit, start carefully tracking the turns used for the emergency torches. Unless the party is seriously underequiped, you only need to track six to twelve turns, max.
Quote from: David Johansen;793483Limited light is one of those things that give dungeons a sense of time ticking down and it's really a pretty important part of the game in that sense.
You could always tie torches to the real world clock. That'd help cut the table talk.
That's an idea I've been toying around with as of late. In-game time is just too amorphic to track it appropriately. But setting a reminder on your phone every hour is easy. The flip-side of course being, that it has no relation to what is actually happening in the scenario.
Quote from: Spinachcat;793302No way! Sword in one hand and torch in the other 4teh win! It's such an iconic image.
You cant see what the hell you are doing then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiuHr5YVJBI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiuHr5YVJBI) outdoor problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY) Indoor problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPaj8lR786s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPaj8lR786s) and in movies just for chuckles.
Torches are great for lighting and throwing into a room. Lights room (don't look straight at it!) & my enemies when they approach, night blinds them (not usually in actual rules, but I'll gladly take it if you *really* want to give it to me), and great way to leave a breadcrumb trail. As for cinematic torches, they're as faithful as rifle physics, a.k.a. completely ignore.
And please, please, pretty please, give me asphyxiation rules with torches, bonfires, and the like. I dare you. I double dog dare you. I will DESTROY your encounter lairs. Smoking out (asphyxiating) dungeons, with archery ambush turkey shoot covering the lone flaming exit, was one of my old specialties to end those silly module dungeon adventures flat until GMs got wise... The rest is just mopping up, or horribly dying to, undead.
We play these games to have fun. At some point I ask, "do I really need to be on paranoiac survival horror mode 24/7?" It's one of the reasons I try to check myself when dungeoneering old school style -- especially with unprepared new school players -- because I was painfully good at it. I just wanted to let off the gas from the tension a bit with a nice slice of paladins and princesses & a cup of tea.
Quote from: Opaopajr;793534And please, please, pretty please, give me asphyxiation rules with torches, bonfires, and the like. I dare you. I double dog dare you. I will DESTROY your encounter lairs. Smoking out (asphyxiating) dungeons, with archery ambush turkey shoot covering the lone flaming exit, was one of my old specialties to end those silly module dungeon adventures flat until GMs got wise... The rest is just mopping up, or horribly dying to, undead.
Nah, any reasonable dungeon design has a good chimney not far from the entrance and is well ventilated. Well, that or the creatures in it eat and breathe darkness. And that tends to mean scary undead stuff. But it may be that my older brother was always trying that stuff so I learned to counter it early. And then there's higher level stunts like sending all that smoke back out in an air elemental.
Quote from: David Johansen;793537Nah, any reasonable dungeon design has a good chimney not far from the entrance and is well ventilated. Well, that or the creatures in it eat and breathe darkness. And that tends to mean scary undead stuff. But it may be that my older brother was always trying that stuff so I learned to counter it early.
I loved chimneys. They reveal easily where's the patch job needed. They also gave a false sense of security, too. Even better... ;)
And it is also assumed just about everyone sentient and functioning in the medieval world understands about the basics of fire and smoke, right? No metagaming at all, right?
Quote from: Barbatruc;793467I set aside a d6 for each lit torch and a d24 for each lit lantern; each turn I roll all the dice set aside, and anything that comes up 1 goes out and gets marked off the character sheet (torch or pint of oil). .. So torches average 6 turns and lanterns/pints 24 turns, exactly their AD&D durations.
That's really very cool, Barbatruc.
Quote from: Barbatruc;793467I set aside a d6 for each lit torch and a d24 for each lit lantern; each turn I roll all the dice set aside, and anything that comes up 1 goes out and gets marked off the character sheet (torch or pint of oil). If one of several torches goes out I declare which one by fiat.
So torches average 6 turns and lanterns/pints 24 turns, exactly their AD&D durations. I don't track when anything was lit other than by setting aside a die; stuff that gets put out and relit I handle by handling the number of dice, since total durations will average out anyway; and rolling the dice is a way of signaling turn boundaries.
Amazing stuff. This might be my favourite solution so far.
Quote from: fuseboy;793564That's really very cool, Barbatruc.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;793579Amazing stuff. This might be my favourite solution so far.
Hey, thanks for the kind words! I thought I might have gotten this from talysman because it seems talysmanesque to me, but given his reply to this thread I guess not. Maybe I riffed on this ammo tracking thing (http://intwischa.com/2011/05/house-rule-for-tracking-ammo/)? (I don't use that ammo system, at least not yet; I definitely found that link after talysman wrote about the topic (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2014/07/lazier-ammo.html). Note the "set aside d6s" thing in t's system.)
Anyway. I'm pretty bummed that I wrote a thing about lighting, and used the word "fiat", but forgot to pun. Tough lux!
Quote from: Barbatruc;793724Hey, thanks for the kind words! I thought I might have gotten this from talysman because it seems talysmanesque to me, but given his reply to this thread I guess not. Maybe I riffed on this ammo tracking thing (http://intwischa.com/2011/05/house-rule-for-tracking-ammo/)? (I don't use that ammo system, at least not yet; I definitely found that link after talysman wrote about the topic (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2014/07/lazier-ammo.html). Note the "set aside d6s" thing in t's system.)
I did something similar with wands long ago, but I don't think I have ever did it with lighting. Good job!
Quote from: Barbatruc;793467I set aside a d6 for each lit torch and a d24 for each lit lantern; each turn I roll all the dice set aside, and anything that comes up 1 goes out and gets marked off the character sheet (torch or pint of oil). If one of several torches goes out I declare which one by fiat.
So torches average 6 turns and lanterns/pints 24 turns, exactly their AD&D durations. I don't track when anything was lit other than by setting aside a die; stuff that gets put out and relit I handle by handling the number of dice, since total durations will average out anyway; and rolling the dice is a way of signaling turn boundaries.
Quote from: Barbatruc;793724Hey, thanks for the kind words! I thought I might have gotten this from talysman because it seems talysmanesque to me, but given his reply to this thread I guess not. Maybe I riffed on this ammo tracking thing (http://intwischa.com/2011/05/house-rule-for-tracking-ammo/)? (I don't use that ammo system, at least not yet; I definitely found that link after talysman wrote about the topic (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2014/07/lazier-ammo.html). Note the "set aside d6s" thing in t's system.)
Anyway. I'm pretty bummed that I wrote a thing about lighting, and used the word "fiat", but forgot to pun. Tough lux!
I thought about this a little more, and I think you can merge the lighting dice rolls with what I was talking about upthread (not tracking torches during the game at all.)
Again, you are just counting the approximate hours spent in the the dungeon, rather than the burn time left on each inndividual torch. You do need to know about how long the party's supplies could theoretically last, though.
Set aside the dice for each active light source, as you describe. However, don't roll these every turn; just roll these after the start of combat or in the middle of any important action, like crossing a precarious ledge, to see if torches go out at the wrong time. After the expedition, figure out how many hours were spent in the dungeon and deduct the appropriate number of torches, candles, or oil flasks, plus one extra for every failed lighting roll.
If you didn't start the expedition with plenty of extra torches, start rolling every turn when you theoretically should have used your last torch. The last few turns become a race to get out of the dungeon before you are plunged in darkness.
Quote from: Opaopajr;793538I loved chimneys. They reveal easily where's the patch job needed. They also gave a false sense of security, too. Even better... ;)
And it is also assumed just about everyone sentient and functioning in the medieval world understands about the basics of fire and smoke, right? No metagaming at all, right?
Dungeon dwellers would know better than most that you need ventilation and ways of dealing with smoke. Still it depends a bit on how you want your fantasy. To some the idea that such tricks would work are offensive. Me, I tend to arm my Call of Cthulhu characters with a glass bottle of ammonia and another of bleach.
Quote from: David Johansen;793906Dungeon dwellers would know better than most that you need ventilation and ways of dealing with smoke. Still it depends a bit on how you want your fantasy. To some the idea that such tricks would work are offensive. Me, I tend to arm my Call of Cthulhu characters with a glass bottle of ammonia and another of bleach.
Since it is CoC your PC better have a decent Chemistry score. Or a great Luck roll. In any case, include a gas mask.
Quote from: Bren;793947Since it is CoC your PC better have a decent Chemistry score. Or a great Luck roll. In any case, include a gas mask.
Or just do the standard logical CoC tactic, hit & run. Standing there huffing the fumes is a no-no to even basic remedial chemistry safety. Don't even need to remember the atomic number or valences, either.
Heh, if the GM reads the score as the challenge to basic functioning, then yeah expect needing that luck roll. Played with plenty of CoC GMs who made you roll every goddamn thing, like drive to the market or speak your native tongue coherently. They obviously didn't read the book that well; even made a few hate d% forevermore after the cascade of suck that followed.
Quote from: Simlasa;793303Someplace online I read a guy's experiments with making torches. The impromptu ones like people make in movies didn't burn long at all. He researched several types and recorded the times... he did come up with some that needed particular materials and careful assembly that would burn for a couple hours... maybe.
Not that anyone uses torches in our games these days anyway. Our GM used to work as a safety adviser for some of the mines up North... so he's more than happy to let us in on the dangers of running around with open flames in underground passages... or out in the forest... or when standing in a field... or looking around an old house.
Our characters pretty much stick to lanterns now.
We used real torches in larps back in the day.
The following things can be said to be true.
i) Take a burning stick from a fire to use as a torch. the flame will extinguish and the stick will smolder with a faint red glow and smoke a lot.
ii) Wrap a rag round a stick and light it and it will burn with loads of choking thick smoke for about a minute then the torch will go out, the cave will be filled with smoke your eyes will be watering and you won't be able to do jack shit for 10 minutes afterwards.
iii) take a short length of rope (hemp) coat with something flammable like barbecue gel. Neatly wrap round the end of a suitable It will burn with a choking smoke for about 30 minutes if you get the mix right.
I really can't stress the smoke enough. In a low ceiling cave or man-made corridor type area you basically fill the place with smoke really fast.
We quickly switched to candles and "magic" light sources.
A candle carried in the shield hand with a think glove is pretty good actually.
A proper lantern is best obviously or a wizard with cast eveready hand torch
I actually really like the simplicity and clarity of 5e D&D light rules. That said, it is in comparison to what came before from WotC and the past 15 years. The TSR distance charts are easier still and also leaves the GM to assume smoke — or not — according to taste.
I remember enjoying the GMs who allowed us to assume more natural consequences, like torches being smokey, candles being more useful for indoor light (like tomb raiding), and bonfires being useful in numerous ways. Just my style preference. However, I understand that isn't as compatible to certain desired moods.
Quote from: jibbajibba;794063I really can't stress the smoke enough. In a low ceiling cave or man-made corridor type area you basically fill the place with smoke really fast.
We quickly switched to candles and "magic" light sources.
A candle carried in the shield hand with a think glove is pretty good actually.
A proper lantern is best obviously or a wizard with cast eveready hand torch
The D&D rules of practically any edition have a weird bias agaiinst candles. Candles in real life can burn much longer than a torch and should illuminate at least as well. But I guess someone thought bigger should be better.
I assume these days that any lanterns the party has are candle lanterns unless the players specifically look for an oil lantern. The oil listed on equipment lists is specifically meant for flaming oil attacks, not lanterns, and lburns quickly and easily.
Quote from: talysman;793822Set aside the dice for each active light source, as you describe. However, don't roll these every turn; just roll these after the start of combat or in the middle of any important action, like crossing a precarious ledge, to see if torches go out at the wrong time. After the expedition, figure out how many hours were spent in the dungeon and deduct the appropriate number of torches, candles, or oil flasks, plus one extra for every failed lighting roll.
If you didn't start the expedition with plenty of extra torches, start rolling every turn when you theoretically should have used your last torch. The last few turns become a race to get out of the dungeon before you are plunged in darkness.
Yes, that's a nice alternative. I do like the regular rolling, though, for a few reasons:
1) Its own sake: rolling dice is fun! d24!
2) Turn-boundary signaling: here comes a new turn dudes, declare actions!
3) Concealing other rolls: add in a different-color random encounter die, etc.
4) Affective functions: handfuls of dice make players nervous. Counterpoint: doing this regularly inures players. Countercounterpoint: then they become complacent.
5) Simulation: oil and torches are of uneven quality. A couple of early vanishing pints due to lucky 1s, and a steadily dwindling torch count, can put players on edge.
Regarding (3), and the d24/d6 mixture generally, if you have things happen on 1s then the entire handful can be treated as an easily read dice pool, even when die size varies.