Guess WOTC doesn't think DL is PC enough...
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/7245020-Weis.html
I hope they win a sizeable settlement and use it to self publish their original vision.
I'm on vacation can anyone give the cliffs notes version of the lawsuit. Who is to blame Wotc? Or Margaret Weis?
Wow. The most interesting part is #9 under "nature of the action." I suppose the best outcome would be for the authors to win big, and use some part of the money to give us new Dragonlance material despite WOTC's perifidy.
Quote from: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 02:01:53 PM
I'm on vacation can anyone give the cliffs notes version of the lawsuit. Who is to blame Wotc? Or Margaret Weis?
WotC and W&H made arrangements to produce a new DL trilogy, and shortly after the first book was mostly finished, WotC cancelled the contract without explanation or recourse, according to the lawsuit.
Quote from: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 02:01:53 PM
I'm on vacation can anyone give the cliffs notes version of the lawsuit. Who is to blame Wotc? Or Margaret Weis?
WOTC commisioned new Dragonlance material 3 years ago and they just cancelled out of the blue. The authors believe that it's because WOTC has had various not-PC-enough allegations against them and Hasbro told them to ditch anything that would that would support this view. And they're asking for a minimum of $10M.
Quote from: sureshot on October 19, 2020, 02:01:53 PM
I'm on vacation can anyone give the cliffs notes version of the lawsuit. Who is to blame Wotc? Or Margaret Weis?
From the looks of it WoTC fucked up. They tried to sidestep contract by simply refusing to approve further drafts of novels thereby ducking payment without explicitly withdrawing. From the looks of it they had issues with how "inclusive" earlier drafts were, which as Wizards has accepted them Weis believed had been sufficiently remedied in newer drafts. Afterward Wizards caught flak from the woke crowd for various reasons they pulled this stunt.
Quote from: Mishihari on October 19, 2020, 02:04:58 PM
WOTC commisioned new Dragonlance material 3 years ago and they just cancelled out of the blue. The authors believe that it's because WOTC has had various not-PC-enough allegations against them and Hasbro told them to ditch anything that would that would support this view. And they're asking for a minimum of $10M.
I don't recall any mention of Hasbro in the filing. I know people want to believe that the big corporation is the villain, and are grateful to WotC for Magic and/or saving D&D, but the fact is, WotC has always been progressive and 'woke', and has gleefully followed along as that definition has spiraled down further.
Quote from: mightybrain on October 19, 2020, 01:58:27 PM
I hope they win a sizeable settlement and use it to self publish their original vision.
Quote from: Mishihari on October 19, 2020, 02:02:11 PM
Wow. The most interesting part is #9 under "nature of the action." I suppose the best outcome would be for the authors to win big, and use some part of the money to give us new Dragonlance material despite WOTC's perifidy.
Yeah, hope they win publish their books, along with their own Dragonlance RPG using the OGL/SRD. Even make it 5e, so it will be an official old D&D 5e setting not owned by WotC! ;D
New Dragonlance novels would hit me right in my nostalgia bone.
Now I just need Viva Frei to read through the court documents.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 19, 2020, 02:44:00 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on October 19, 2020, 02:04:58 PM
WOTC commisioned new Dragonlance material 3 years ago and they just cancelled out of the blue. The authors believe that it's because WOTC has had various not-PC-enough allegations against them and Hasbro told them to ditch anything that would that would support this view. And they're asking for a minimum of $10M.
I don't recall any mention of Hasbro in the filing. I know people want to believe that the big corporation is the villain, and are grateful to WotC for Magic and/or saving D&D, but the fact is, WotC has always been progressive and 'woke', and has gleefully followed along as that definition has spiraled down further.
Here ...
(attached rather than inline because inline insertion doesn't seem to be working)
Just have to say I'm amazed at WOTC. Every time they start doing something right, ...they manage to screw it up royally.
According to Margaret Weis WOTC replaced her editor Liz Schuh (Who has been with WOTC since 1995, and has been the head of publishing and licensing for about as long as anyone can remember) and replaced her with uhhh... Nic Kelman.
"In or about June 2020, Defendant changed the editorial and oversight team assigned to the new Dragonlance trilogy, removing Liz Schuh and Hilary Ross and replacing them with Nic Kelman and Paul Morrissey. Mr. Kelman, who was and remains Defendant's Head of Story and Entertainment, was a controversial choice. As recently as 2019, his own publication as author of the sexually explicit novel, "Girls: A Paean" was subject to ongoing public discussions of whether his work contained or promoted misogyny and pedophilia."
I have no additional comments on these allegations as I haven't read Girls: A Paean. I will say a cursory examination reveals he is not currently, nor has been an RPG gamer. He was a writer up until the time WOTC hired him and was previously known for his screenplay "Generis" that was sold to Steven Spielberg back in 2011. No clue what the movie is about, Generis though is a latin word for "Of another kind". His other screenplays include "The Outpost" (not the 2020 movie about Afghanistan) and "Emergence" which was picked up by Roland Emmerich and Centropolis Entertainment and is currently in pre-production hell meaning the movie script has been set aside as the producer and entertainment company have chosen to actively work on other projects (Midway, by Centropolis Entertainment which was released earlier this year) and Roland Emmerich is currently working on Moonfall scheduled for a 2021 release. Details of Emergence are scarce, but it is said to be a new take on the classic alien invasion story with "hot-button science elements". Roland Emmerichs' other movies that he worked on since 2013 include "Independence Day: Resurgence(2016) ", and "Stonewall" which was released in 2015.
Nic has been mired in some controversy especially over the last year, after some of the Magic:The Gathering existing storylines were retconned to omit a major Lesbian character that has been a part of the Magic universe since 2010, so he really pissed off the LGBT fans and others over at WOTC. Then caved to a petition over on change.org
https://www.change.org/p/wizards-of-the-coast-wotc-revert-greg-weisman-and-nic-kelman-s-retcon-that-erased-chandra-s-pansexuality
Paul Morissey is the new Publishing lead for Wizards of the Coast joining WOTC just this January. Before that he was a freelance comic author for DC comics and was the co-writer for the Teen-Titans:Go comic series, and worked for Blizzard Entertainment as an Editor for a couple years from June 2018-November 2019, so Overwatch, Starcraft, Diablo, and World of Warcraft. Before that he worked for Archaia Entertainment LLC, working Mousegard: Legends of the Guard, and in the early 2000's worked for TokyoPop in L.A. bringing Manga to the western masses. You can find him over at Twitter as @Pauliewog.
These two replaced Liz Schuh and Hilary Ross, and then proceeded to kill the planned re-release of Dragonlance, including a new novel trilogy, along with maybe some new D&D adventures and managed to piss off a pair of well established multi-million dollar earning literary and RPG award winning authors. Ooopsie.
What I'm not seeing from WOTC or Hasbro is the new shiney that would replace Dragonlance. I'll wager right now though, these two new managers don't actually have anything to offer in place of that, making this insult especially egregious. Will be very interested to see how this develops. WOTC sued for Breach of Contract, ouch!
In the meanwhile, for those of you interested, here is a downloadable pdf of the complaint filed by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman, so you can save a copy for yourself to review later and to ensure that corporate shills, shysters, other liars and backbiters are not able to later conceal the truth with like a gag order or something similar...
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/7245020/Weis.pdf
Best reading for today for me! I'd be really surprised if Hasbro had anything to do with this train wreck. They have been enjoying that MTG and D&D has been so successful since the release of 5e since about 2017 or so...
The more time passes the more Wotc and any other equally Woke, SJW company make things worse. The Dragonlance novels are not diverse enough give me a damn break. For what so that they can cater to a very vocal tiny minatory who probably won't purchase the new inclusive and diverse material anyway. Look at Marvel and Dc they catered to the same demographic and are financial trouble. I hope Wotc loses big. Even if it means losing access to more 5E. I have many other versions of D&D and quite frankly if WOTC insits on sabotaging themselves those who work there deserve to be out of work.
WOTC could be in a bit of trouble with the publisher as well.
According to the filing, Penguin Random House did pay out an advance, of which WOTC got a part of.
WOTC killed the deal, and still has the advance money...
They tried to treat Hickman and Weis like they were 5 cent-a-word contract writers. Not millionaires with fuck you money that can take the fight to WOTC.
So stupid.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 19, 2020, 02:44:00 PMI don't recall any mention of Hasbro in the filing. I know people want to believe that the big corporation is the villain, and are grateful to WotC for Magic and/or saving D&D, but the fact is, WotC has always been progressive and 'woke', and has gleefully followed along as that definition has spiraled down further.
Yeah. Hasbro has overall been the ones to try and reign in WOTCs chronic stupid.
And not quite correct. WOTC was originally very open and party hearty. Then the women took over, eventually drove off Garfield and its been a mess ever since. Its just before it was more or less very low key as they had other stupid to get done. Its only in the last 10 years or so that theyve gotten increaingly more "progrssive" and then in the last 5 more openly pushing the agenda.
Quote from: Mishihari on October 19, 2020, 03:45:21 PM
Here ...
(attached rather than inline because inline insertion doesn't seem to be working)
I stand corrected. I still suspect that it's WotC that really wants to push this stuff, and Hasbro wants to take it more easily. Hasbro is older, bigger, and has been around the block a lot more and dealt with family concerns; WotC, by contrast, is still the edgy teenager. :)
Although I must admit, it's a moot point. I burned out on Dragonlance about a decade back after a long and tumultuous relationship, and personally, I think
Dragons of the Hourglass Mage is a pitch-perfect summary of what Dragonlance became: a recapitulation of the W&H works with sloppy worldbuilding and general silliness, culminating in a paean to the glory of Raistlin Majere. :)
I just don't see how this move on WOTC's part helps anyone. Now we have an internal IP fight + looming public RPG culture feud + a frustrated consumer base. I am just hoping that Hickman/Weis prevail and the books get published despite the shenanigans.
Anything that harms WotC is good news.
However, the most likely scenario is a secret settlement, not a court case.
My guess for an outcome would be Weis & Hickman get the Dragonlance rights back as settlement because Woke of the Coast have already milked it for millions and have no need for a nostalgia brand for their new beloved freakjob audience.
Then W&H can continue their relationship with Random House, no need for WotC to be involved moving ahead.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 05:48:58 PM
...
My guess for an outcome would be Weis & Hickman get the Dragonlance rights back as settlement because Woke of the Coast have already milked it for millions and have no need for a nostalgia brand for their new beloved freakjob audience.
...
IMHO IP changing hands is highly unlikely. (It would be cool though...)
WOTC would rather pay out big cash and sit on the DL IP rather than see someone else profit from it.
I could much more easily see a scenario where Hickman and Weis get their NDA payday; Then a year later WOTC turns out a WOKE as fuck LGBTQP ram that ideology down you throat: "definiative edition of the DragonLance Campaign Setting".
Where every character even remotely liked by DL fandom is changed to a gay gender-flipped person of color.
Why? Because fuck you Hickman and Weis. Fuck. You.
That shit, I would believe.
Every day Raging Golden Eagle is proven right.
It is smarter to just own your IPs and never sell out. Don't trust any companies with your IPs.
Quote from: Snowman0147 on October 19, 2020, 10:16:02 PM
Every day Raging Golden Eagle is proven right.
It is smarter to just own your IPs and never sell out. Don't trust any companies with your IPs.
In fairness to WOTC, Hickman and Weis never owned the DL IP.
They were given the green light to produce setting material for a pitch Hickman and his wife gave TSR.
They were absolutely the main creative force behind the DL success.
But it was always TSR/WOTC's IP.
And DL would never have had the success it had without TSR's initial bankrolling of the project.
Quote from: Jaeger on October 19, 2020, 04:28:25 PM
WOTC could be in a bit of trouble with the publisher as well.
According to the filing, Penguin Random House did pay out an advance, of which WOTC got a part of.
WOTC killed the deal, and still has the advance money...
They tried to treat Hickman and Weis like they were 5 cent-a-word contract writers. Not millionaires with fuck you money that can take the fight to WOTC.
So stupid.
That is not what the complaint says. 1) No advance has been paid to anyone yet, 2) an advance was going to be given to Hickman and Weiss, not to WOTC. Paragraphs 20 and 36.
Thanks to Pemerton for highlighting that for me.
I had previously understood DL as an IP was owned by W&H, but TSR had bought the rights to use the IP. But that was based on late night convention bar chatter. Does the lawsuit explain who exactly owns what?
If the DragonLance IP is owned by WotC, then all W&H are getting is some cash, unless the goal is a negotiated buy-out of the IP.
What exactly is the lawsuit asking as settlement?
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 10:51:29 PM
What exactly is the lawsuit asking as settlement?
At least $10M
Quote from: Snowman0147 on October 19, 2020, 10:16:02 PMIt is smarter to just own your IPs and never sell out. Don't trust any companies with your IPs.
There's only two paths:
1) Sellout for a giant pile of money, walk away and never look back.
2) Never sell your IP.
The "trust" part doesn't work ever because companies change over time. You might have great owners, great creative partners and great distribution channels...and that can all go to shit leaving your IP stuck and drowning in a cesspool of imbeciles.
Quote from: Mistwell on October 19, 2020, 10:46:05 PM
...
That is not what the complaint says. 1) No advance has been paid to anyone yet, 2) an advance was going to be given to Hickman and Weiss, not to WOTC. Paragraphs 20 and 36.
Thanks to Pemerton for highlighting that for me.
I'm reading something wrong then:
Page 8:25:
Quote from: On PAGE 8 of the complaint on October 19, 2020, 10:46:05 PM
...
25.On March 29, 2019, Plaintiff-Creators and PRH entered into the Publishing Agreement. PRH remitted the signing payment due under the Publishing Agreement to Plaintiff Creators in April 2019. Per the terms of the License Agreement, Plaintiff-Creators in turn remitted a portion of the signing payment to Defendant%u2014an amount Defendant continues to retain despite having effectively terminated the License Agreement.
I'm no expert. So if a "signing payment" is not the same as an advance. OK. I stand corrected.
Doesn't change the fact that PRH PAID Hickman and Wise some cash based on potential return of investment. Some of this money went to WOTC.
Who killed the deal.
Then kept their part of the "signing bonus" even though they have now made it impossible for PRH to recoup that money in future DL book sales. Now there may very well be clauses that once the signing bonus is paid - it's paid. No takebacks. Still a bit of a dick move though.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 10:51:29 PM
...
If the DragonLance IP is owned by WotC, then all W&H are getting is some cash, unless the goal is a negotiated buy-out of the IP.
I would love it if this was possible.
But I think given the current state of the industry, they will take the money and run.
Quote from: mightybrain on October 19, 2020, 01:58:27 PM
I hope they win a sizeable settlement and use it to self publish their original vision.
Except they can't.
The magicians that live near the ocean own the copyrights for essentially all that you would actually recognize as Dragonlance. That's the reason no new Dragonlance novels from W&H came for the longest time, there was no licensing agreement.
Even if they win (or get the desired settlement) they still won't be able to publish anything as Dragonlance without the say-so of the magicians that live near the ocean (which will not be forthcoming, as you might imagine).
Note that the first novel is totally done, the second one was already submitted as a draft...but those books will never see the light of day.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 10:51:29 PMunless the goal is a negotiated buy-out of the IP.
I consulted a highly sophisticated future-divining machine (pictured here https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/38765/files/240458996/geeek-mystic-magic-8-ball-future-prediction-ball.jpg), and I asked the likelihood of such a result.
After some time, the machine returned the following answer:
"Fuck no."
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 19, 2020, 10:51:29 PM
I had previously understood DL as an IP was owned by W&H, but TSR had bought the rights to use the IP.
It's the exact opposite. The Magicians own the IP, W&H licensed it whenever they wrote for it.
Part of the language of the filing is exactly explaining that the nature of the deal was such that whatever time and effort W&H dedicated to the project (time and effort which they obviously did dedicate, since they fully wrote one book and drafted the second) was essentially "locked-in" with the Magicians, since it's all Dragonlance material which W&H CANNOT publish under any other guise than an official Magicians publication.
The fact that the Magicians knew this, and knew that W&H's contract with their publisher was also completely dependant on this licensing is what gives rise to the tortious interference claim. The Magicians knowingly fucked over W&H's contract with their publisher by having them write a set of novels that they could only ever publish with consent from the Magicians. Once the Magicians refused any further drafts, they boned (proper legalese here) both W&H AND their publisher.
This hit way too close to the bone.
My first direct experience with D&D (though not with RPGs in general) was DMing a Dragonlance campaign in 1989. It remains one of my favorite settings, and I've read quite a few of the novels and anthologies related to the setting.
So, the whole thing has a special place in my heart and seeing W&H get trampled on by those fucktards is quite irritating. I hope they get all the settlement they deserve.
Fuck the Magicians that Live Near the Ocean.
I'm not a fan of Dragonlance. For the same reason, I am not a fan of The Dragonriders Of Pern. Dragons would not lower themselves to having an inferior lifeform use them as a mount. Dragons have too much ego to ever degrade themselves in such a manner.
As for what is happening between WH and WotC. Well, it sucks for Hasbro. Who is the real entity left holding the purse in this mess.
But look at it this way. Hasbro is going to see the losses to their bottom line because of this. Which will likely cause Hasbro to give greater scrutiny to WotC and their policies. This is a flashpoint. And Hasbro doesn't take mismanagement of their properties well. So the axe is invariably going to fall.
This could be the start of the change that Pundit and others have been crying out for. We will just have to watch and see how it all unfolds.
Apparently WOTC does not have full control over the Dragonlance IP.
This came to light during the initial phases of 5e. WOTC wanted to use the Dragonlance setting for 5e rather than FR. Problem is they wanted to "reimagine" the setting and had some other writer work on it. W&H got wind of it and had words with the writer who was apparently not aware that they had not been consulted on this and both baulked at continuing and W&H were able to somehow stonewall WOTC from doing as they pleased. Otherwise WOTC probably would have just ignore them and used the setting willy nilly.
According to notes on it the base premise was to reboot the setting and start at the beginning. But instead play with a setting where the heroes never met up at the tavern and then cascade the setting from that change and how it would impact all the rest.
Quote from: Omega on October 20, 2020, 06:36:57 AM
Apparently WOTC does not have full control over the Dragonlance IP.
This came to light during the initial phases of 5e. WOTC wanted to use the Dragonlance setting for 5e rather than FR. Problem is they wanted to "reimagine" the setting and had some other writer work on it. W&H got wind of it and had words with the writer who was apparently not aware that they had not been consulted on this and both baulked at continuing and W&H were able to somehow stonewall WOTC from doing as they pleased. Otherwise WOTC probably would have just ignore them and used the setting willy nilly.
According to notes on it the base premise was to reboot the setting and start at the beginning. But instead play with a setting where the heroes never met up at the tavern and then cascade the setting from that change and how it would impact all the rest.
Jim Butcher was the author consulted, and he decided not to move forward with the project after finding out Weis & Hickman were not on board with it. WotC has full legal rights to do whatever they want with Dragonlance, but there are author and fan politics that mean going ahead without W&H's acquiescence usually causes problems. To most fans and some creatives, DL=Weis & Hickman, and you can't get them on board otherwise.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 20, 2020, 07:47:32 AM
Jim Butcher was the author consulted, and he decided not to move forward with the project after finding out Weis & Hickman were not on board with it. WotC has full legal rights to do whatever they want with Dragonlance, but there are author and fan politics that mean going ahead without W&H's acquiescence usually causes problems. To most fans and some creatives, DL=Weis & Hickman, and you can't get them on board otherwise.
I admit a Jim Butcher reimagining of Krynn would not be the worst thing cranked out by WotC, but at the same time full props to him for hitting the brakes when he found out Weis and Hickman were not on board.
The whole 'who controls DL' has come up before, when Weis threw that shit-fit over Lord Soth getting pulled into Ravenloft. At the time I thought she was being silly, but I have to wonder now -- was her reaction just 'creator anger' or was there some legal basis behind it?
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 20, 2020, 08:18:37 AM
The whole 'who controls DL' has come up before, when Weis threw that shit-fit over Lord Soth getting pulled into Ravenloft. At the time I thought she was being silly, but I have to wonder now -- was her reaction just 'creator anger' or was there some legal basis behind it?
As someone who's intimately familiar with Dragonlance and Ravenloft, I can safely say 'creator anger.' Soth was conceived on TSR time and money, and so was purely TSR property. With the benefit of hindsight, I think putting him in Ravenloft probably caused more trouble than it was worth, but TSR was firmly within their rights.
Quote from: Jaeger on October 20, 2020, 12:16:20 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on October 19, 2020, 10:46:05 PM
...
That is not what the complaint says. 1) No advance has been paid to anyone yet, 2) an advance was going to be given to Hickman and Weiss, not to WOTC. Paragraphs 20 and 36.
Thanks to Pemerton for highlighting that for me.
I'm reading something wrong then:
Page 8:25:
Quote from: On PAGE 8 of the complaint on October 19, 2020, 10:46:05 PM
...
25.On March 29, 2019, Plaintiff-Creators and PRH entered into the Publishing Agreement. PRH remitted the signing payment due under the Publishing Agreement to Plaintiff Creators in April 2019. Per the terms of the License Agreement, Plaintiff-Creators in turn remitted a portion of the signing payment to Defendant%u2014an amount Defendant continues to retain despite having effectively terminated the License Agreement.
I'm no expert. So if a "signing payment" is not the same as an advance. OK. I stand corrected.
Doesn't change the fact that PRH PAID Hickman and Wise some cash based on potential return of investment. Some of this money went to WOTC.
Who killed the deal.
Then kept their part of the "signing bonus" even though they have now made it impossible for PRH to recoup that money in future DL book sales. Now there may very well be clauses that once the signing bonus is paid - it's paid. No takebacks. Still a bit of a dick move though.
Pemerton then, after I re-posted his reply, added this:
from para 25:
Per the terms of the License Agreement, Plaintiff-Creators in turn [ie after getting their advance from the publisher] remitted a portion of the signing payment to Defendant—an amount Defendant continues to retain despite having effectively terminated the License Agreement.​
THANKS Pemerton. Grr.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 20, 2020, 01:07:30 AM
I'm not a fan of Dragonlance. For the same reason, I am not a fan of The Dragonriders Of Pern. Dragons would not lower themselves to having an inferior lifeform use them as a mount. Dragons have too much ego to ever degrade themselves in such a manner.
The thing with the Dragons in Dragonriders of Pern is
Spoiler
they are just genetically engineered flying lizards
Whoa. Dragonlance by Jim Butcher would have been amazing. Props to the man though for respecting others' creative efforts.
As a setting to play in dragonlance in 2e was not, to me at least, very good...it seemed kind of generic and empty outside of the heroes of the lance campaign. If you played as the heroes of the lance or played characters that were stand ins, and played through the whole story with minor changes to dress it up as a quantum variation of the novels, like for example making verminard a minotaur, then it wasn't too bad. But the entire setting seemed define by the war of lance and while it was a big world it had no character but that which the dm defined outside of that war of the lance campaign, outside of that the dm was basically homebrewing the whole map.
A bit off topic, but I found some Dragonlance books that my wife owned before we were married. Was the first book something like "Dragons at Dawn"?
The three books in the series are
Dragons of Autumn Twilight in 84
Dragons of Winter Night in 85
Dragons of Spring Dawning in 85
Apparently there is a reboot series of books where it ends instead with all or most of the main characters killed off.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on October 21, 2020, 10:40:32 AM
A bit off topic, but I found some Dragonlance books that my wife owned before we were married. Was the first book something like "Dragons at Dawn"?
Dragons of Spring Dawning is the third volume of the original Chronicles trilogy. "A Dawn of Dragons" is the sixth book of that trilogy repackaged for the Young Adult market (with some profanity taken out) from back in 2004.