Greetings!
Here in this video of Tiana Frolkina performing a Tribal Fusion style belly-dance, the music she is dancing to is a song called "Three Sisters". This apparently is an old Russian folk song. The song's subject "Three Sisters" is also as I recall a reference to the mythological elements of Russian Pagan religions embracing the worship of three major goddesses. Or something like that. Tiana Frolkina puts on a mesmerizing performance here for sure. The song and the music, as well, are outstanding. Also, it again, is all sung in Russian. I apologize for not being able to provide an English translation.
Listening to the music, however, as I was going over some notes for my campaign concerning different Pagan religions and mystical customs, it got me to thinking about spellcasting, not merely for Bards, but also for other kinds of spellcasters, whether such are priestesses, witches, or wizards.
You will notice that the woman singing the song "Three Sisters" frequently makes these kinds of "YIPPING* noises throughout the song.
It also made me wonder, who teaches women singers to *YIPP* like this? Women making these kinds of *YIPPING* noises seems to be pretty common--especially so in Medievalesque, Folk-kinds of tribal music. It seems less popular in more modern styles of singing, for example.
I also wonder if these women *YIPPING* noises actually have some kind of meaning in the Russian language?
Then, of course, I thought about what if in the game, different kinds of mystical spellcasters--say Priestesses, Witches, and Bards--had *YIPPING* as part of their rituals involved in casting spells? Definitely seems like a kind of difference between different spellcasting and magical traditions, which can be expressed in the game.
In my Thandor campaign, magical characters from different magical or mystical traditions have different kinds of rituals and components involved in their spellcasting. For example, Vallorean Witches would speak Vallorean, and use Vallorean rituals and specific components to cast a Choking Fist spell, or Fireball, or whatever. Meanwhile, a Nambar Witch would speak Nambar, and use specific Nambar rituals and components, to cast the same spell. Or perhaps the spell would be somewhat different in effect, like range or duration, or whatever. In a similar manner, Rusava Witches would speak Rusava language, and use specific Rusava rituals and components.
It is more work for me as the DM, but it creates realistic and historically-based differences in different cultural mystical traditions. The players definitely love this kind of detail as well.
I appreciate your thoughts, my friends!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
QuoteIt also made me wonder, who teaches women singers to *YIPP* like this?
Consulting the player's handbook, it's a
YIPPer of greater level than the learner, and it takes one week of training per level of
Yippist to be gained, and costs 3 gold pieces per week of
YIPP training.
Ed Greenwood was talking about his Spell Singers today in a short video.
Greetings!
Interesting video, LordBP! Ed Greenwood is very talented and interesting designer and writer. Not surprising, considering he created Forgotten Realms and so much more. He's been involved with D&D forever. I think it is interesting too, when he discusses different kinds of spellcasting and spell-singers, for example.
I have also been inspired in my own work and study of real-world history and mythology. In our own real world, there are so many different cultures, and different magical and mystical traditions. Each has many different details and aspects, often in common with others, of course, but also different. Within the game campaign, I love drilling down into different mystical and cultural details, and creating something that is new or different from the norm. That can be very exciting, and fun! However, mechanically, I think, a good DM should also be prepared to put the breaks on some of it, because everything can become way too detailed and convoluted, that it then becomes more of a frustration to deal with. So, there is definitely I think an important stylistic and mechanical balance to be striven for there. In my Thandor world, or example, I have many very well-developed cultures spread out over different continents. The scope or different details involved with the different mystical and magical systems screams out--and there are even some excellent detailed aspects that I could use to further flesh out those distinctions--there could easily be half a dozen different magic systems! In practice, though, I try to provide some brief lip-service to lots of distinct traditions, but maintain fairly mechanically straight-forwards system application, so it doesn't get too convoluted in detail and become frustrating.
I think it is beneficial and cool though to at least create some shorthand details and discussion, with some occasional light rule-adjustments or tweaks, to provide a framework for different mystical systems, without needing to create a whole huge thing from scratch. Having such a basic framework, at least provides some measure of depth to emulate such wild and different mystical traditions from all over the world. I think having such mystical frameworks enhances and improves any campaign.
Maybe women making *YIPPING* noises in music or in mystical practices has some kind of meaning. *Laughing* Just an interesting detail I have noticed over and over in many tribal songs, and some elements of mystical rituals as well. That reminds me also of how you can hear similar *yipping* noises from Maria Franz of Heilung, when she sings and they perform ancient Germanic mystical rituals. Pretty interesting stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
Here is Sylvia Yssei, a Tribal Fusion dancer, doing her thing with fire-dancing to some kind of Spanish song. I think. Whatever she is dancing to--damn. Is she performing some kind of magic spell? *Laughing*
Added Note: After a bit of research, I think the band is called Tanxugueiras that is performing the song "Figa". The video seems to be set in Mexico, where a huge crowd of rural farmers gather together and have three Mexican women burned as Witches. Of course, in the band's official music video for "Figa"--the three Witches are the three women singers of the band. Very cool song.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Here's an American version of dance from the last century with the singer making strange yipping noises (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt0ZUCAI6pc) similar to the ones my wife makes.
I think this is another native ritual spell and the fair haired guy in the video has fallen under its power.
Quote from: SHARK on March 11, 2023, 09:07:41 PM
You will notice that the woman singing the song "Three Sisters" frequently makes these kinds of "YIPPING* noises throughout the song.
I hear "HEY!" rather than "Yip" but ymmv.
OTOH, maybe we now know what a "Dhole Chant" is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXHGlhrfLbQ
Quote from: SHARK on March 11, 2023, 09:07:41 PM
You will notice that the woman singing the song "Three Sisters" frequently makes these kinds of "YIPPING* noises throughout the song.
It also made me wonder, who teaches women singers to *YIPP* like this? Women making these kinds of *YIPPING* noises seems to be pretty common--especially so in Medievalesque, Folk-kinds of tribal music. It seems less popular in more modern styles of singing, for example.
It's probably the same thing that makes Rob Zombie incapable of writing a song without saying "Yeah" every few seconds.
But seriously, I think it might just be an emulation of a musical instrument. The part in the song where the "yips" were layered under the vocals reminded me of brass-hits or violin twangs (like in Venus In Furs by Velvet Underground (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jow9HujXZ00)).
@SHARK:
"YIPPING" doesn't mean anything in the language, and neither does it emulate an instrument. it's, basically, just like squweaking and houling by Michael Jackson - a sort of "vocal percussion".
here's a google translated text, in case you are interested: https://lyricstranslate.com/ru/three-sisters-three-sisters.html
it's kinda non-sensical :P
insidentally, are you looking to mine eastern europe slavic folklore for game material? Witcher games, apart from being excellent as games, are also an excellent source to pulfer from, imo - and it's all already translated for you.
Is the Triple Goddess the same Maiden/Mother/Crone as in Celtic and other Indo-Euro-Aryan religions?
Quote from: Venka on March 11, 2023, 09:28:41 PM
QuoteIt also made me wonder, who teaches women singers to *YIPP* like this?
Consulting the player's handbook, it's a YIPPer of greater level than the learner, and it takes one week of training per level of Yippist to be gained, and costs 3 gold pieces per week of YIPP training.
Greetings!
*Laughing* That's outstanding, Venka! So fitting within the Player's Handbook! I love it. I'll have to incorporate that ruling into the mystical traditions of the campaign.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: S'mon on March 13, 2023, 02:21:00 PM
Is the Triple Goddess the same Maiden/Mother/Crone as in Celtic and other Indo-Euro-Aryan religions?
if you are asking me - i don't know. religion is not my forte. or history for that matter.
i would say, though, given how much of this stuff seem to have travelled around, i wouldn't be surprised if there was a connection.
Quote from: Klava on March 13, 2023, 01:25:14 PM
@SHARK:
"YIPPING" doesn't mean anything in the language, and neither does it emulate an instrument. it's, basically, just like squweaking and houling by Michael Jackson - a sort of "vocal percussion".
here's a google translated text, in case you are interested: https://lyricstranslate.com/ru/three-sisters-three-sisters.html
it's kinda non-sensical :P
insidentally, are you looking to mine eastern europe slavic folklore for game material? Witcher games, apart from being excellent as games, are also an excellent source to pulfer from, imo - and it's all already translated for you.
Greetings!
Klava! I see. *Yipping* is used as "Vocal Percussion". Very nice, Klava. Since I have gradually become more educated on singing, dancing, and musical details, I remember now how important "Vocal Percussion" can be as a technique. That all makes sense now, Kava. I know it seems like a minor thing, but, strangely, as I have learned more, I have gotten to a point where I notice these kinds of details, and think about them. If that makes any sense. *Laughing*
Even with the dancing--I watched some kind of tutorial dance instruction video, by Sylvia Yssei. OMG, right? Super technical, move your finger here, shift your hip there, then move your legs in a circle here, and on and on. It blew me away. She of course, damn. She does it like she is breathing. Incredible amounts of training, skill, discipline, and focus goes into that dancing stuff. Definitely mind blowing.
As to developing my game campaign--*Laughing* Oh yeah, my friend. I have been doing a campaign with an Eastern European Slavic theme for awhile now. It has been an outgrowth of some of my unorthodox studies while at the university. I got a lot into Dark Ages study, from Ancient studies, and I was always interested in regions and topics that are typically, sidelined in Western Education. Eastern Europe and Slavic history isn't ignored, but it is almost like an afterthought for many Western scholars. Certainly off the radars of most professors here in America.
So, yeah, getting into Eastern European History and Slavic culture has been a real thrill and a great experience for myself, as a Historian. But also as a gamer and GM. I'm naturally interested in authenticity and realism, so getting immersed in the languages, the culture, the music, all of it, is very important to me, an also useful. And, of course, fun and entertaining, too! I've become so inspired by my studies into Slavic culture and Eastern European history that I have been working on a game book that focuses on an Eastern European theme and highlights Slavic culture, mythology, religion, and history.
I even bought a translated copy of the Russian "Primary Chronicle". I have a personal library collection of probably over 50 scholarly books on Eastern European and Slavic history, culture, and mythology. Tales, lore, and history about the Kievan Rus, the Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Serbs, Bulgarians, the Tatars, all awesome and very interesting! I also got into learning about the Baltic Peoples--the Latvians, Estonians, and Lithuanians. And the Finns! That of course, also opened doors for learning about the whole connections going on with Siberian tribes, Asian peoples, and all of the awesome things going on up there in the Ural Mountains region, and the Siberian forest regions. Just wow, you know? The cultures, the tribes, the languages, all mind blowing and very interesting. It has also been fascinating to learn about the different cultural clothing styles of the different Russian and Slavic tribes and peoples. Some of these traditions go back hundreds and hundreds of years. And, far from being muddy, dirty, depressing, and drab--most of them are absolutely white, clean, and embracing such brilliant colours, and fine embroidery and craftsmanship. These tribal or traditional clothing--different styles for men and women--oh yeah. They were or are, you know, considered very important. Status markers, but also functional, beautiful, and celebratory. So many occasions, and also different seasonal clothing. And well, how can you not LOVE the Ushanka?
Such studies have also introduced me to different Slavic mystical and magical traditions and customs. It is also very interesting to see how popular more traditional-based Folk music, and styles of dancing like belly dancing, tribal Fusion, and more have become so popular throughout Eastern Europe. From what I have seen and read, medieval or tribal music and belly-dancing and other forms of traditional dancing and musical styles are HUGE in Eastern Europe. Very interesting! I love it all!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My goodness, SHARK. Those dances certainly are......mesmerizing.
I want to play in your campaign. LOL
I immediately thought of the David Eddings books The Belgariad. Can't remember which book but there is a Nadrak woman, whom Beldin marries, who does a dance. The Nadrak's always reminded me of Russianesque culture. Fourth book maybe.....hmmmm. Now I need to track it down.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 13, 2023, 03:41:59 PM
My goodness, SHARK. Those dances certainly are......mesmerizing.
I want to play in your campaign. LOL
I immediately thought of the David Eddings books The Belgariad. Can't remember which book but there is a Nadrak woman, whom Beldin marries, who does a dance. The Nadrak's always reminded me of Russianesque culture. Fourth book maybe.....hmmmm. Now I need to track it down.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, Thorn! Mesmerizing, indeed!
Here is an avatar of a Slavic Fertility Goddess, come to earth to bless us all with her beauty and wondrous talents. Kira Lebeveda is a word-famous Tribal Fusion dancer. She has been doing this stuff for I thin, 12 years now. Interesting also to note, her "Mama Boss"--her mother--hand-crafts all of Kira's costumes, including the amazing headdresses or tiaras that she often wears in performances. As I recall from my studies, the particular headdress that Kira is wearing in this performance is a callback to an ancient Ukrainian/Russian style of headdress for young women. Amazing stuff. Nobles of course had jewel-studded headdresses, but even the peasant women had very beautiful headdresses, finely embroidered, made of rich colours, all just stunning to look at.
Watch Kira Lebedeva *lay it down*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on March 13, 2023, 03:23:55 PM
As to developing my game campaign--*Laughing* Oh yeah, my friend. I have been doing...
<a lot of stuff cut to save space>
well... what can i say... "wow"? judging by that post you prolly know more about that stuff than i do - and i am a russian :P
i would note though, that a lot of these "traditional artists" that popped up over latest coupla decades or so are not exactly very authentic and careful with source material, you know. many are only there to stir the hype and collect clicks and likes. but then again, if you did all that research you are prolly well equipped to tell yourself.
Quote from: Klava on March 14, 2023, 04:19:08 AM
Quote from: SHARK on March 13, 2023, 03:23:55 PM
As to developing my game campaign--*Laughing* Oh yeah, my friend. I have been doing...
<a lot of stuff cut to save space>
well... what can i say... "wow"? judging by that post you prolly know more about that stuff than i do - and i am a russian :P
i would note though, that a lot of these "traditional artists" that popped up over latest coupla decades or so are not exactly very authentic and careful with source material, you know. many are only there to stir the hype and collect clicks and likes. but then again, if you did all that research you are prolly well equipped to tell yourself.
Greetings!
Well, *PLACEBA*, Klava! Though, I must confess, my History Major specialized in Ancient & Medieval History--focused on Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My two secondary specialties were American History, and Ancient India & Ancient China studies. I also worked on a Bachelor Certificate in Medieval Studies, with a kind of sub-focus on Arthurian Mythology. Thus, when I set about working on a game book that is inspired by Eastern European and Russian History, and featuring Slavic culture, religion, and mythology, I honestly felt like a lost, helpless child. *Laughing* I don't speak the Russian language, and honestly, certainly in American schools, we tend to be taught only the bare basics about Eastern Europe or Russian history. Really minimal stuff. I learned through my studies in school though, that school--even universities in many ways--only provide the bare basics anyways. To really learn, you have to dig and explore and learn on your own. I was fortunate, though, in being taught the essential skills of a professional Historian. Sources are critical. Primary sources are where you are closest to the evidence, to the truth, in so far as we can know it. Then there is the whole crying by academic historians about "Popular Historians". Mostly academic historians are envious that popular historians write history books that people actually read, and no one cares what academic historians think. And, popular historians get to host popular History Channel programs, BBC documentaries, and the like--all the while, they get paid excellent money--while the academic historians are ignored. The academic historians are ignored fitly by the general public, and then, of course, they are also ignored by the major cable networks and channels. The major criticism against popular historians is they don't typically yabber on about their sources--or get into making as extensive bibliographies as the academic historians think they should, or is proper. The key criticism against the academic historians is that many of them are *scholars*--but they are terrible as teachers, as professors, and also are often, paradoxically, poor writers as well. Academic historians are often more concerned about hearing their own voices, and otherwise speaking to other academic scholars--meanwhile missing entirely the absolute need to speak to normal, everyday people. Inspiring the normal person through the stories, the blood, the wars, all the crazy and awesome things going on in history is how you keep history alive, how you inspire others to become scholars, or even just history enthusiasts. Hobby historians or whatever. You have to get people fired up about learning history, and getting them excited. Otherwise, the books just get locked away in archives, and the old, stodgy academic professors get stashed away in their white tower, ranting alone, or at tiny groups of students.
I digress, my friend. I apologize for going off on some obscure rant about education and scholarship. It is a subject that...can inspire me to grind my teeth. *Laughing*
So, I new I had my work cut out for me. I researched, and looked for primary sources, either direct sources, like the "Primary Chronicle" as well as specialized academic books that talked about whatever, but also included excellent primary source materials and references within them. Then, I also selected a few solid university textbooks, so that I had something of a reference for what a History Major that may have specialized in Slavic Studies, or Eastern European Studies, or Russian Studies would be likely to read, as a kind of foundational framework to getting into the historical knowledge. Then, I also picked up some history and mythology books written by "Popular Historians" so I would be acquainted with more general scope of studies, but which were also readable and enjoyable in giving me the basics.
I would love to know the Russian language! What region of Russia are you from? How long have you lived in the United States? What kinds of history are you passionate about? Are there other specialties that you are into, Klava?
Oh, and here is a basic bibliography that I began with as research for my game book that I have been writing. What do you think of it, Klava? Are there favourite books that you have that I missed or don't have? I also included some books on Germanic History, early barbarian tribes, the Dark Ages, and some also on Central Asia and the Mongo Empire.
Bibliography
Russian, Slavic and Baltic Resources (30 Books)
Russian Fairy Tales
(The Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folklore Library); 1976; Aleksandr Afanas'ev
Russian Fairy Tales
(The Planet); 2012; Aleksandr Afanas'ev
Russian Folk Belief
Ivanits, Linda J.
Myths and Folk-tales of the Russians, Western Slavs, and Magyars
Curtin, Jeremiah
Creatures of Slavic Myth (The Slavic Way) (Volume 4)
Kushnir, Dmitriy
Encyclopedia of Russian and Slavic Myth and Legend
Dixon-Kennedy, Mike
Slavic Folklore: A Handbook (Greenwood Folklore Handbooks)
Kononenko, Natalie
New Researches on the Religion and Mythology of the Pagan Slavs
Lajove, Patrice
Medieval Russia, 980-1584, Second Edition (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks)
Martin, Janet
A History of Russia to 1855-Volume 1
Riasanovsky, Nicholas
The Crisis of Medieval Russia 1200-1304 (Longman History of Russia)
Fennel, John
Medieval Russia-A Sourcebook, 900-1700
Dmytryshyn, Basil
The Chronicle of Novgorod, 1016-1471
Forbes, Nevill
The Russian Primary Chronicle: Laurentian Text
Cross, Samuel Hazzard
The Icon and the Axe: An Interpretive History of Russian Culture (Vintage)
James H. Billington
Reinterpreting Russian History: Readings 860-1860s
Kaiser, Daniel H.
Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales
Zenkovsky, Serge A.
The "Domostroi": Rules for Russian Households in the Time of Ivan the Terrible
Pouncy, Carolyn Johnston
The Time of Troubles: A Historical Study of the Internal Crisis and Social Struggle in Sixteenth-and Seventeenth-Century Muscovy
S.F. Platonov
Russia and the Golden Horde: The Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History
Halperin, Charles
Mother Russia: The Feminine Myth in Russian Culture (Midland Book)
Hubbs, Joanna
World of the Ancient Slavs
Vana, Zdenek
The Emergence of Rus 750-1200
Franklin, Simon
Formation of Muscovy 1304-1613, The (Longman History of Russia)
Crummey, Robert O.
Russia in World History (New Oxford World History)
Engel, Barbara Alpern
Medieval Russia: The History and Legacy of the Groups that Developed the Russian State in the Middle Ages
Charles River Editors
Ivan the Terrible: A Captivating Guide to the First Tsar of Russia and His Impact on Russian History
History, Captivating
Russian History: A Captivating Guide to the History of Russia, Including Events Such as the Mongol Invasion, the Napoleonic Invasion, Reforms of Peter the Great, the Fall of the Soviet Union, and More
History, Captivating
The Northern Crusades: Second Edition
Christiansen, Eric
A History of the Baltic States (Palgrave Essential Histories series)
Kasekamp, A.
Germanic, Medieval and Norse Resources (17 Books)
The Sagas of Icelanders: (Penguin Classics Deluxe Edition)
Robert Kellogg
Njal's Saga (Penguin Classics)
Anonymous
The Vinland Sagas (Penguin Classics)
Keneva Kunz
Egil's Saga (Penguin Classics)
Anonymous
The Prose Edda: Norse Mythology (Penguin Classics)
Sturluson, Snorri
Encyclopedia of Norse and Germanic Folklore, Mythology and Magic
Lecouteux, Claude
A History of the Franks (Penguin Classics)
Gregory of Tours
The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians
Bury, J.B.
Germania: Newly Revised Edition on The Origin and Situation of the Germanic People
Tacitus
The Gothic History of Jordanes in English Version;
Jordanes, 6th cent
The Story of the Goths, from the Earliest Times to the End of the Gothic Dominion in Spain
Bradley, Henry
Barbarian Rites: The Spiritual World of the Vikings and the Germanic Tribes
Hasenfratz, Ph.D., Hans-Peter
The Early Germans
Todd, Malcolm
The Middle Ages: Everyday Life in Medieval Europe
Singman, Jeffrey L.
Viking Age: Everyday Life During the Extraordinary Era of the Norsemen
Wolf, Kirsten
The Dark Ages 476-918 A.D.
Oman, Charles
Ibn Fadlan and the Land of Darkness: Arab Travelers in the Far North (Penguin Classics)
Ibn Fadlan
General History Resources and Gaming Books (3 Books)
Military History Book (Dk General History)
Dorling Kindersley
Weapon: A Visual History of Arms and Armor
Ford, Roger
GURPS Russia
Ross, S. John
The Steppes, Central Asia and Far Asia (7 Books)
Central Asia in World History (New Oxford World History)
Golden, Peter B.
Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World
Jack Weatherford
Genghis Khan: The Man Who Conquered the World
Mclynn, Frank
Genghis Khan: His Conquests, His Empire, His Legacy
Mclynn, Frank
The Secret History of the Mongol Queens: How the Daughters of Genghis Khan Rescued His Empire
Weatherford, Jack
Warriors Of The Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C. To 1700 A.D.
Hildinger, Erik
The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia
Grousset, Rene
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Greetings!
PERSIMMON! Subfield in Russian History??? Oh yeah, my friend! Absolutely beautiful! And yes, Asian History! ARRRGGHHH! I would love to take your classes! When I was in school, at my university, I lamented that I couldn't further expand my subfield of India and China studies to get into Chinese and Sanskrit! Then, I also pondered the benefits of traveling and living in China for 6 months, and in India for 6 months, chained inside a Library, while eating the traditional foods, listening to the traditional music, and being totally immersed in the culture. *SIGH* *Laughing*
What are your favourite books on Russian History?
It is crazy to think that a person coud devote teir entire lives to just studying China or India. I had always been interested in those two areas, for example, but then became frustrated when I *really* earned about how vast the culture and hstory is when I wasat the university--after I had already done so much in my Ancient Greece & Ancient Rome studies. ARRGGHHH! Believe me, I can't say I am impressed with "College Counselors". There were things I needed to know, processes, you know, language requirements, other hoops to jump through--when I was a Freshman; not when I was a Junior, and moving into Senior year. I was like, "Really? NOW I find out all this stuff? I'm glad you enjoy my rants! Oh yeah! Your experiences with the TV programs! Damn, you know? That's so sad. Embracing a lie! GGRRR! I don't bame you at all for saying NO to them now. They should go and pound sand, Persimmon! True Historians need many skills--but having a love for TRUTH and having integrity are at the top of the list, in my mind.
"Merging the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study"! *LAUGHING* Well, thank you, my friend! I always strive to be a genteman of refinement and culture!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Hey, I've been reading this amazing book titled A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail from some obscure author you've probably never heard of /s LOL. No but seriously tis a great book. But seriously I watched a doc on Netflix called Age of Samurai that got me interested in the Japanese invasion and then I find one of our own wrote a book about it.
Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2023, 09:32:17 AM
Well, *PLACEBA*, Klava!
....
<cut to save space>
holy macaroni, Shark! that was the mother of all rants! i do appreciate it though :)
where do i even start... you know, not only have i never been to united states, i also haven't quite left russia ::). never for more than a couple of weeks at a time anyway, to travel on buseness or for holidays. so i'm kinda still there, posting this right from moscow.
and so, my understading of russian culture and tradition (history to a lesser extent) doesn't really come from studying, but rather from having been immersed in it, you know. for 47 years.
i'm not exactly a history buff, i'm sorry to say. and any books i did read that were in any way historic were mostly fiction. but, judging by that impressive list you posted, if i would dare to give you any advice on what would be a possible point of improvement over that - well, that would be to study the language and dive into the source material yourself. there's only so much that second hand info - no matter how well it was prepared - will do for you.
as a possible source of cool material for your game though - definitely read Nikolai Gogol's "Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka" and "Viy". those should be translated and available.
so, there :)
p.s. my english is quite poor, but i'd hazard a guess that you probably meant to say *SPASIBO* there, but somekinda auto-correct schtick turned it into *PLACEBA*?:P
Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2023, 10:47:58 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Greetings!
PERSIMMON! Subfield in Russian History??? Oh yeah, my friend! Absolutely beautiful! And yes, Asian History! ARRRGGHHH! I would love to take your classes! When I was in school, at my university, I lamented that I couldn't further expand my subfield of India and China studies to get into Chinese and Sanskrit! Then, I also pondered the benefits of traveling and living in China for 6 months, and in India for 6 months, chained inside a Library, while eating the traditional foods, listening to the traditional music, and being totally immersed in the culture. *SIGH* *Laughing*
What are your favourite books on Russian History?
It is crazy to think that a person coud devote teir entire lives to just studying China or India. I had always been interested in those two areas, for example, but then became frustrated when I *really* earned about how vast the culture and hstory is when I wasat the university--after I had already done so much in my Ancient Greece & Ancient Rome studies. ARRGGHHH! Believe me, I can't say I am impressed with "College Counselors". There were things I needed to know, processes, you know, language requirements, other hoops to jump through--when I was a Freshman; not when I was a Junior, and moving into Senior year. I was like, "Really? NOW I find out all this stuff? I'm glad you enjoy my rants! Oh yeah! Your experiences with the TV programs! Damn, you know? That's so sad. Embracing a lie! GGRRR! I don't bame you at all for saying NO to them now. They should go and pound sand, Persimmon! True Historians need many skills--but having a love for TRUTH and having integrity are at the top of the list, in my mind.
"Merging the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study"! *LAUGHING* Well, thank you, my friend! I always strive to be a genteman of refinement and culture!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey Shark,
My subfield in Russia was the Imperial Era, ca. 1400-1800. And my main academic focuses are military history and the study of peasant rebellions and popular uprisings. So, my all-time favorite Russian history book is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Rebels-1600-1800-Library-Paperback/dp/0393008363/ref=sr_1_1?crid=30LNLM14EX9A3&keywords=russian+rebels&qid=1678817829&sprefix=russian+rebels%2Caps%2C310&sr=8-1
Still in print and originally published on my 7th birthday, no less!
This one is also quite good. It's about Catherine the Great's husband, whom she murdered to take the throne: https://www.amazon.com/Reform-Regicide-Indiana-Michigan-Russian-European/dp/0253333229/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3I10POZAXF4WE&keywords=regicide+by+carol+leonard&qid=1678818096&s=books&sprefix=regicide+by+carol+leonard%2Cstripbooks%2C116&sr=1-1
And, my graduate field adviser at Michigan happens to be a specialist in Russian witchcraft, which may interest you: https://www.amazon.com/Desperate-Magic-Economy-Witchcraft-Seventeenth-Century-ebook/dp/B00G6SD4JO/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2JFJ661BPN5ZS&keywords=valerie+kivelson&qid=1678818221&s=books&sprefix=valerie+kivelson%2Cstripbooks%2C110&sr=1-3
Also, incidentally I spent a year teaching at the USNA as a Distinguished Visiting Professor. It was the only place I've taught where the students didn't whine about me being too hard and "unfair" for having serious academic standards. In fact, during my second term, enrollment for all my courses maxed out in under an hour. Unfortunately Covid struck that spring and we went remote after spring break. But still the best teaching experience I've had as a college professor in 23 years of teaching.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on March 14, 2023, 10:48:48 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Hey, I've been reading this amazing book titled A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail from some obscure author you've probably never heard of /s LOL. No but seriously tis a great book. But seriously I watched a doc on Netflix called Age of Samurai that got me interested in the Japanese invasion and then I find one of our own wrote a book about it.
Yeah, that's one of my books. Glad you're enjoying it. The Chinese translation will be published later this year. And if you like that one, there are two books that are essentially sequels to it, and I'm just starting another one that will follow those, which will be about the Three Feudatories Rebellion of 1673-1681 in China.
Currently doing edits for my latest book, a biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), which are due to the editor by the end of April so they can hopefully get it out early next year. That will be with the Naval Institute Press.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 02:38:13 PM
....
Yeah, that's one of my books. Glad you're enjoying it. The Chinese translation will be published later this year. And if you like that one, there are two books that are essentially sequels to it, and I'm just starting another one that will follow those, which will be about the Three Feudatories Rebellion of 1673-1681 in China.
Currently doing edits for my latest book, a biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), which are due to the editor by the end of April so they can hopefully get it out early next year. That will be with the Naval Institute Press.
Noice and kudos. I'll keep watch for those.
Quote from: Klava on March 14, 2023, 01:30:09 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2023, 09:32:17 AM
Well, *PLACEBA*, Klava!
....
<cut to save space>
holy macaroni, Shark! that was the mother of all rants! i do appreciate it though :)
where do i even start... you know, not only have i never been to united states, i also haven't quite left russia ::). never for more than a couple of weeks at a time anyway, to travel on buseness or for holidays. so i'm kinda still there, posting this right from moscow.
and so, my understading of russian culture and tradition (history to a lesser extent) doesn't really come from studying, but rather from having been immersed in it, you know. for 47 years.
i'm not exactly a history buff, i'm sorry to say. and any books i did read that were in any way historic were mostly fiction. but, judging by that impressive list you posted, if i would dare to give you any advice on what would be a possible point of improvement over that - well, that would be to study the language and dive into the source material yourself. there's only so much that second hand info - no matter how well it was prepared - will do for you.
as a possible source of cool material for your game though - definitely read Nikolai Gogol's "Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka" and "Viy". those should be translated and available.
so, there :)
p.s. my english is quite poor, but i'd hazard a guess that you probably meant to say *SPASIBO* there, but somekinda auto-correct schtick turned it into *PLACEBA*?:P
Greetings!
Yes, *SPASIBO*!!! Thank you, Klava! I thought I was being socoo toremember Russian words. But yes, that is what I was trying for!
Your English is far better than my Russian! I wouldn't even know how to make the Russian script. The words, they seem backwards compared to English lettering. It seems very intimidating! *Laughing* That must be a considerable struggle for you Klava, likewise, going from Russian to learnng English. Learning the English language, but also learning to write in English. Keep up the good work, Klava! Learning a new language is exciting!
Yes, Moscow! That is awesome, Klava! Have you been to the libraries, the archives, the museums in Moscow? Iknow you said you are not much of a history buff though. There is so much to see and do there in Moscow, I would imagine. If I were to go there, I would have to spend a full week locked in the museum and a full week locked in the library or more! *Laughing*
I'm the kind of Geek academic that can easily get lost for three or four hours just visiting my local bookstore! *Laughing* And, thank you *SPASIBO* Klava, for the book suggestions! I have marked them down, and I hope to get them next month if I can.
Klava, how did you find this site here? You are very WELCOME too, Klava! Have you been playing games for long? What RPG' do you have there in Moscow? Do you have D&D, or something like it? Have Russians just created their own RPG that is like D&D? That is very common, too by the way. Germany, Italy, France, as you mentioned also the Witcher,all have games very much like D&D. I love that. I love all kinds of creativity and cleverness, you know?
What is your gaming group like? Do you GM a game, or are just a Player? Playing and GM games are both fun, but of course, the GM has much more work to do to ensure the game runs smoothly and with excitement and entertainment.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: SHARK on March 14, 2023, 10:47:58 AM
Quote from: Persimmon on March 14, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Shark,
As someone who did a subfield in Russian history in grad school and who teaches Asian history for a living, I can appreciate your rants. I try to write for a broader audience, with limited success, but the times I've been asked to consult for TV shows, they've always ignored my advice because it didn't jive with what they were trying to sell to their audience. In one case they literally wanted me to confirm something that was totally false to fit their script. So now I generally ignore such requests.
As for your reading lists, there are some very good sources in there. And on a related note, it's great that you've managed to merge the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study.
Greetings!
PERSIMMON! Subfield in Russian History??? Oh yeah, my friend! Absolutely beautiful! And yes, Asian History! ARRRGGHHH! I would love to take your classes! When I was in school, at my university, I lamented that I couldn't further expand my subfield of India and China studies to get into Chinese and Sanskrit! Then, I also pondered the benefits of traveling and living in China for 6 months, and in India for 6 months, chained inside a Library, while eating the traditional foods, listening to the traditional music, and being totally immersed in the culture. *SIGH* *Laughing*
What are your favourite books on Russian History?
It is crazy to think that a person coud devote teir entire lives to just studying China or India. I had always been interested in those two areas, for example, but then became frustrated when I *really* earned about how vast the culture and hstory is when I wasat the university--after I had already done so much in my Ancient Greece & Ancient Rome studies. ARRGGHHH! Believe me, I can't say I am impressed with "College Counselors". There were things I needed to know, processes, you know, language requirements, other hoops to jump through--when I was a Freshman; not when I was a Junior, and moving into Senior year. I was like, "Really? NOW I find out all this stuff? I'm glad you enjoy my rants! Oh yeah! Your experiences with the TV programs! Damn, you know? That's so sad. Embracing a lie! GGRRR! I don't bame you at all for saying NO to them now. They should go and pound sand, Persimmon! True Historians need many skills--but having a love for TRUTH and having integrity are at the top of the list, in my mind.
"Merging the Marine's love of strip clubs and pole dancing with academic study"! *LAUGHING* Well, thank you, my friend! I always strive to be a genteman of refinement and culture!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hey Shark,
My subfield in Russia was the Imperial Era, ca. 1400-1800. And my main academic focuses are military history and the study of peasant rebellions and popular uprisings. So, my all-time favorite Russian history book is this one: https://www.amazon.com/Russian-Rebels-1600-1800-Library-Paperback/dp/0393008363/ref=sr_1_1?crid=30LNLM14EX9A3&keywords=russian+rebels&qid=1678817829&sprefix=russian+rebels%2Caps%2C310&sr=8-1
Still in print and originally published on my 7th birthday, no less!
This one is also quite good. It's about Catherine the Great's husband, whom she murdered to take the throne: https://www.amazon.com/Reform-Regicide-Indiana-Michigan-Russian-European/dp/0253333229/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3I10POZAXF4WE&keywords=regicide+by+carol+leonard&qid=1678818096&s=books&sprefix=regicide+by+carol+leonard%2Cstripbooks%2C116&sr=1-1
And, my graduate field adviser at Michigan happens to be a specialist in Russian witchcraft, which may interest you: https://www.amazon.com/Desperate-Magic-Economy-Witchcraft-Seventeenth-Century-ebook/dp/B00G6SD4JO/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2JFJ661BPN5ZS&keywords=valerie+kivelson&qid=1678818221&s=books&sprefix=valerie+kivelson%2Cstripbooks%2C110&sr=1-3
Also, incidentally I spent a year teaching at the USNA as a Distinguished Visiting Professor. It was the only place I've taught where the students didn't whine about me being too hard and "unfair" for having serious academic standards. In fact, during my second term, enrollment for all my courses maxed out in under an hour. Unfortunately Covid struck that spring and we went remote after spring break. But still the best teaching experience I've had as a college professor in 23 years of teaching.
Greetings!
Very nice books, Persimmon! Thank you very much for your suggestions!
Yes, I also love the military history the most, but also the politics, the intrigue, the culture, and religion. Those things are often the foundations or catalysts for whatever is going on with the armies nd on battlefields. Like what Clausewitz said, yes? *Laughing*
Your experiences teaching at the USNA. Very nice, and OOH RAH!!! Persimmon! OOH RAH INDEED!
It is a little window into a distant, and bygone America, my friend. A brief glimpse into what America used to believe in, how we used to believe, and what we expected from ourselves. What we as a nation valued, and what we believed was worth fighting fiercely for.
I well remember attending classes in the Marine Corps. *Laughing* Picture long rows of steel tables, with hard benches for seating. Row upon row of Marines, all seated in neat order and files next to each other, paper and pens and notes all out and working. Crisp high and tight haircuts. All wearing neatly-pressed camouflage Marine fatigue uniforms, all having the distinctive starpoint, sharply-ironed barracks covers placed on the tabletop next to them. In rows, outside of the tables and benches, are evenly placed gigantic fans, all whirring continuously. The pervasive fluorescent lighting overhead, again, is thorough, and neatly organized. At the head of the class is a lecturn, a small table and chair, and a large video screen. The instructor is ready to begin class. Everyone has a full canteen of water, and everyone is seated ramrod sharp, all eyes on the instructor's every move and every word.
The instructor asks the class, "Are we ready to learn in this class and absorb some outstanding knowledge?"
The class responds all in unison, roaring, "Sir, Yes Sir!"
I'm glad that you cherished your experience at Annapolis so fondly, my friend. There is a few good men left in our country yet. You have helped educate them, and bring knowledge and learning to them. That's so awesome, Persimmon!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's good to see other people here with an interest in, and appreciation for, the culture of Balts and Slavs.
thanks for the warm welcome, SHARK :)
Quote from: SHARK on March 15, 2023, 05:14:39 AM
Your English is far better than my Russian! I wouldn't even know how to make the Russian script. The words, they seem backwards compared to English lettering. It seems very intimidating!
well, to be fair, russian language is a real bitch to learn i'm told. one of the hardest in the world.
Quote*Laughing* That must be a considerable struggle for you Klava, likewise, going from Russian to learnng English. Learning the English language, but also learning to write in English. Keep up the good work, Klava! Learning a new language is exciting!
i agree of course. that^ is one of the reasons why i would join forums like this - to interact with native english speakers, especially those, for whom language is a tool of their trade and/or a personal passion, and improve myself :)
QuoteYes, Moscow! That is awesome, Klava! Have [quoteyou been to the libraries, the archives, the museums in Moscow? Iknow you said you are not much of a history buff though. There is so much to see and do there in Moscow, I would imagine. If I were to go there, I would have to spend a full week locked in the museum and a full week locked in the library or more! *Laughing*
yeah, judging by what you posted, i bet moscow would be a real treat for you to visit - just about everything that happened to russia left its mark on moscow. not all of if is exactly pretty, but that's just the way of things i guess. maybe one day you'll be able to see for yourself - prolly better to wait for the insanity that's going on right now to end though.
QuoteKlava, how did you find this site here? You are very WELCOME too, Klava! Have you been playing games for long? What RPG' do you have there in Moscow? Do you have D&D, or something like it? Have Russians just created their own RPG that is like D&D?
i don't exactly remember what i was googling for when one of Pundit's blog posts popped up for me. i read that, then went looking for Pundit - and landed here.
ttrpgs are not as big in russia as they are in the west i would say. myself - i was a PC gamer since early school and particularly a fan of crpgs like baldur's gate, ps:t and fallout. then came MMOs (everquest). i got into ttrgps one of the usual ways i guess - i was completely anaware of that type of hobby, and a collegue at work was GMing a game and looked for more people. he told me that there was a way to simultanionsly remove the constraints of computer game, but keep all the rpg AND multiplayer elements intact. so, down the rabbit hole i went.
we played a lot of ADND, and later with another group i played a little bit of VtM (didn't like that one much). i wasn't, admittedly, a very good player - i'd come as what they call a "tactitian" and tend to treat the game as a problem to solve, which is not very conductive for the role playing side of it, as you, no doubt, know.
QuoteWhat is your gaming group like? Do you GM a game, or are just a Player? Playing and GM games are both fun, but of course, the GM has much more work to do to ensure the game runs smoothly and with excitement and entertainment.
i don't have a group now - my old crews and myself we kinda all grew apart, settled up with families, kids, jobs and stuff. i also woudln't try to GM - i don't think i posess the skills or just general presence of mind to manage that. today i mosly watch shows on youtube and read forums like this one :P
edit: typos
Quote from: Klava on March 16, 2023, 03:30:57 AM
thanks for the warm welcome, SHARK :)
Quote from: SHARK on March 15, 2023, 05:14:39 AM
Your English is far better than my Russian! I wouldn't even know how to make the Russian script. The words, they seem backwards compared to English lettering. It seems very intimidating!
well, to be fair, russian language is a real bitch to learn i'm told. one of the hardest in the world.
Quote*Laughing* That must be a considerable struggle for you Klava, likewise, going from Russian to learnng English. Learning the English language, but also learning to write in English. Keep up the good work, Klava! Learning a new language is exciting!
i agree of course. that^ is one of the reasons why i would join forums like this - to interact with native english speakers, especially those, for whom language is a tool of their trade and/or a personal passion, and improve myself :)
QuoteYes, Moscow! That is awesome, Klava! Have [quoteyou been to the libraries, the archives, the museums in Moscow? Iknow you said you are not much of a history buff though. There is so much to see and do there in Moscow, I would imagine. If I were to go there, I would have to spend a full week locked in the museum and a full week locked in the library or more! *Laughing*
yeah, judging by what you posted, i bet moscow would be a real treat for you to visit - just about everything that happened to russia left its mark on moscow. not all of if is exactly pretty, but that's just the way of things i guess. maybe one day you'll be able to see for yourself - prolly better to wait for the insanity that's going on right now to end though.
QuoteKlava, how did you find this site here? You are very WELCOME too, Klava! Have you been playing games for long? What RPG' do you have there in Moscow? Do you have D&D, or something like it? Have Russians just created their own RPG that is like D&D?
i don't exactly remember what i was googling for when one of Pundit's blog posts popped up for me. i read that, then went looking for Pundit - and landed here.
ttrpgs are not as big in russia as they are in the west i would say. myself - i was a PC gamer since early school and particularly a fan of crpgs like baldur's gate, ps:t and fallout. then came MMOs (everquest). i got into ttrgps one of the usual ways i guess - i was completely anaware of that type of hobby, and a collegue at work was GMing a game and looked for more people. he told me that there was a way to simultanionsly remove the constraints of computer game, but keep all the rpg AND multiplayer elements intact. so, down the rabbit hole i went.
we played a lot of ADND, and later with another group i played a little bit of VtM (didn't like that one much). i wasn't, admittedly, a very good player - i'd come as what they call a "tactitian" and tend to treat the game as a problem to solve, which is not very conductive for the role playing side of it, as you, no doubt, know.
QuoteWhat is your gaming group like? Do you GM a game, or are just a Player? Playing and GM games are both fun, but of course, the GM has much more work to do to ensure the game runs smoothly and with excitement and entertainment.
i don't have a group now - my old crews and myself we kinda all grew apart, settled up with families, kids, jobs and stuff. i also woudln't try to GM - i don't think i posess the skills or just general presence of mind to manage that. today i mosly watch shows on youtube and read forums like this one :P
edit: typos
Greetings!
Klava! You are very welcome, my friend! I am very glad to have you here, amongst us!
Yes, I understand that English, too, is not so simple for many to learn! I love hearing the Russian language. After awhile, I have gradually been able to understand little bits and pieces of it, when I am listening to people speak Russian. Looking at the writing though--oh, wow, you know? Understanding the writing would be an enormous effort for myself. Maybe some day!
Your history with gaming is also interesting! Hopefully, you can get a group together soon! Such fun to be had! I also always enjoy how the RPG hobby reinforces you learning other subjects as well, like history, geography, economics, music, culture! Also language, food, animals, weapons, armour, and combat!
I think our hobby also strongly encourages the person to strengthen their reading and writing skills as well. Also, mathematics! *Laughing* RPG's are a wonderful hobby that is enriching and positive on so many levels.
I found it very interesting for example, to learn about how the early Slavic tribes adapted and organized their warbands and military troops. As the Slavic tribes were often fighting all kinds of different enemies, they readily embraced light infantry troops--but also more heavily armoured and armed troops, as well as spearmen, pike-men, and heavy infantry armed with axes, maces, and warhammers!
The Slavs were not slow to understand the need for archers, either! The Slavs likewise adapted light, medium, and heavy cavalry, and especially--fast moving horse archers! Then, you can also see how they developed flexible tactics--using massive horse archer attacks, cavalry lancers, but also being ready to send ships up or down river to make amphibious landings and raids against enemies! Also of interest--despite the emphasis often being on horse archers and heavy cavalry--the Slavs also always maintained strong infantry forces using spears, shields, and other weapons, to dig into a strong defensive formation. That also seemed to be ever present with Slavic armies!
Very cool stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK