Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 07:14:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
Woke publication Wired > RPGers are prejudiced against "neurodivergent" people. Because reasons.
Pundit > "Will you look at the idiots!"
Me > ROTFLMAO!

None of which is true so Wired is just making stuff up?  Great.

Why dont they go back to talking about computer topics and leave the rest to other people more competent to talk about them?

I think this is the article which Pundit is talking about. It's on Wired from May 2, by Laurence Russell.

https://www.wired.com/story/neurodivergent-gamers-tabletop-rpgs/

It starts:

Quote from: Laurence RussellTHE TABLETOP GAMING community offers a place for communication and togetherness that can be incredibly rare in modern culture. It's a privilege that nerds have gotten better at sharing in recent years, particularly with those who need community most.

Dr. Elizabeth Kilmer is a clinical psychologist who uses tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) in therapy, and she herself was diagnosed with ADHD. "Narrative and metaphor have been used in therapy, healing, and educational practices for a long time," she explains. "You can see examples in folk tales, parables, and other oral traditions. TTRPGs can be a powerful tool because they are so interactive, and they allow us to be vulnerable through our character, while protecting ourselves."

"At the role-playing table, we can pretend to be braver than we feel in real life," agrees Jacob Wood, founder of the Accessible Games Blog and a longtime blind TTRPG player and GM. "Through fantasy, I learned to be comfortable talking to groups of other people, even if I didn't know them very well. Without these chances to express myself, I'd still be hiding away in my house on my own."

Understanding the Problem
As experts who have brought tabletop gaming to disabled and neurodiverse people for years, and part of the community themselves, people like Wood and Kilmer have created accommodations for people who haven't always been able to participate.

"Communication is hard," Kilmer reminds us. "Passive and indirect communication strategies can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals (and isn't great for neurotypicals either). This can contribute to the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

And what kind of accommodation would that be?

We've been handling disabled players for a while. Larger dice and sheets, making sure there's room at the table for the player in a wheel chair, etc.

So I'm curious as to what kind of accommodation would be necessary.

But you know, I have a suspicion. Might be unwarranted, I'll grant that. But I wonder if the issue is some fuckwit wrapped themselves in the 'neurodivergent' blanket and cried because they got kicked out of groups for being stupid/disruptive/creepy.

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 07:14:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
Woke publication Wired > RPGers are prejudiced against "neurodivergent" people. Because reasons.
Pundit > "Will you look at the idiots!"
Me > ROTFLMAO!

None of which is true so Wired is just making stuff up?  Great.

Why dont they go back to talking about computer topics and leave the rest to other people more competent to talk about them?

I think this is the article which Pundit is talking about. It's on Wired from May 2, by Laurence Russell.

https://www.wired.com/story/neurodivergent-gamers-tabletop-rpgs/

It starts:

Quote from: Laurence RussellTHE TABLETOP GAMING community offers a place for communication and togetherness that can be incredibly rare in modern culture. It's a privilege that nerds have gotten better at sharing in recent years, particularly with those who need community most.

Dr. Elizabeth Kilmer is a clinical psychologist who uses tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) in therapy, and she herself was diagnosed with ADHD. "Narrative and metaphor have been used in therapy, healing, and educational practices for a long time," she explains. "You can see examples in folk tales, parables, and other oral traditions. TTRPGs can be a powerful tool because they are so interactive, and they allow us to be vulnerable through our character, while protecting ourselves."

"At the role-playing table, we can pretend to be braver than we feel in real life," agrees Jacob Wood, founder of the Accessible Games Blog and a longtime blind TTRPG player and GM. "Through fantasy, I learned to be comfortable talking to groups of other people, even if I didn't know them very well. Without these chances to express myself, I'd still be hiding away in my house on my own."

Understanding the Problem
As experts who have brought tabletop gaming to disabled and neurodiverse people for years, and part of the community themselves, people like Wood and Kilmer have created accommodations for people who haven't always been able to participate.

"Communication is hard," Kilmer reminds us. "Passive and indirect communication strategies can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals (and isn't great for neurotypicals either). This can contribute to the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

Bolding mine

What stigma?

In my current campaign we have me (aspie) and another player that'0s either also an aspie of has some ADHD, nobody ever asked if we were all neurotypical or said that aspies aren't welcome or can't play.

IME, as long as you can function well enough at the table nobody fucking cares about you being an aspie.

But, like Grognard GM says, if you can't stop screeching then sorry, you need special caregivers and I'm not trained nor did I came to the table to look after you.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2023, 08:22:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 07:14:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
Woke publication Wired > RPGers are prejudiced against "neurodivergent" people. Because reasons.
Pundit > "Will you look at the idiots!"
Me > ROTFLMAO!

None of which is true so Wired is just making stuff up?  Great.

Why dont they go back to talking about computer topics and leave the rest to other people more competent to talk about them?

I think this is the article which Pundit is talking about. It's on Wired from May 2, by Laurence Russell.

https://www.wired.com/story/neurodivergent-gamers-tabletop-rpgs/

It starts:

Quote from: Laurence RussellTHE TABLETOP GAMING community offers a place for communication and togetherness that can be incredibly rare in modern culture. It's a privilege that nerds have gotten better at sharing in recent years, particularly with those who need community most.

Dr. Elizabeth Kilmer is a clinical psychologist who uses tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) in therapy, and she herself was diagnosed with ADHD. "Narrative and metaphor have been used in therapy, healing, and educational practices for a long time," she explains. "You can see examples in folk tales, parables, and other oral traditions. TTRPGs can be a powerful tool because they are so interactive, and they allow us to be vulnerable through our character, while protecting ourselves."

"At the role-playing table, we can pretend to be braver than we feel in real life," agrees Jacob Wood, founder of the Accessible Games Blog and a longtime blind TTRPG player and GM. "Through fantasy, I learned to be comfortable talking to groups of other people, even if I didn't know them very well. Without these chances to express myself, I'd still be hiding away in my house on my own."

Understanding the Problem
As experts who have brought tabletop gaming to disabled and neurodiverse people for years, and part of the community themselves, people like Wood and Kilmer have created accommodations for people who haven't always been able to participate.

"Communication is hard," Kilmer reminds us. "Passive and indirect communication strategies can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals (and isn't great for neurotypicals either). This can contribute to the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

And what kind of accommodation would that be?

We've been handling disabled players for a while. Larger dice and sheets, making sure there's room at the table for the player in a wheel chair, etc.

So I'm curious as to what kind of accommodation would be necessary.

But you know, I have a suspicion. Might be unwarranted, I'll grant that. But I wonder if the issue is some fuckwit wrapped themselves in the 'neurodivergent' blanket and cried because they got kicked out of groups for being stupid/disruptive/creepy.

You know you're right, probably some self diagnosed danger hair, male feminist or pronoun wearer.

This is how you can tell people aren't really part of the hobby. I've played with all sorts of "neurodivergent" people for over 30 years. It has always been about the friends and people you play with. Nobody ever gave two shits about differences.

And don't tell anyone, but we also played with women and people of color!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 07:14:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
Woke publication Wired > RPGers are prejudiced against "neurodivergent" people. Because reasons.
Pundit > "Will you look at the idiots!"
Me > ROTFLMAO!

None of which is true so Wired is just making stuff up?  Great.

Why dont they go back to talking about computer topics and leave the rest to other people more competent to talk about them?

I think this is the article which Pundit is talking about. It's on Wired from May 2, by Laurence Russell.

https://www.wired.com/story/neurodivergent-gamers-tabletop-rpgs/

It starts:

Quote from: Laurence RussellTHE TABLETOP GAMING community offers a place for communication and togetherness that can be incredibly rare in modern culture. It's a privilege that nerds have gotten better at sharing in recent years, particularly with those who need community most.

Dr. Elizabeth Kilmer is a clinical psychologist who uses tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) in therapy, and she herself was diagnosed with ADHD. "Narrative and metaphor have been used in therapy, healing, and educational practices for a long time," she explains. "You can see examples in folk tales, parables, and other oral traditions. TTRPGs can be a powerful tool because they are so interactive, and they allow us to be vulnerable through our character, while protecting ourselves."

"At the role-playing table, we can pretend to be braver than we feel in real life," agrees Jacob Wood, founder of the Accessible Games Blog and a longtime blind TTRPG player and GM. "Through fantasy, I learned to be comfortable talking to groups of other people, even if I didn't know them very well. Without these chances to express myself, I'd still be hiding away in my house on my own."

Understanding the Problem
As experts who have brought tabletop gaming to disabled and neurodiverse people for years, and part of the community themselves, people like Wood and Kilmer have created accommodations for people who haven't always been able to participate.

"Communication is hard," Kilmer reminds us. "Passive and indirect communication strategies can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals (and isn't great for neurotypicals either). This can contribute to the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

Bolding mine

What stigma?

In my current campaign we have me (aspie) and another player that'0s either also an aspie of has some ADHD, nobody ever asked if we were all neurotypical or said that aspies aren't welcome or can't play.

IME, as long as you can function well enough at the table nobody fucking cares about you being an aspie.

But, like Grognard GM says, if you can't stop screeching then sorry, you need special caregivers and I'm not trained nor did I came to the table to look after you.

Greetings!

Exactly, Hermano!

What "STIGMA"?

These blue-haired morons just like to make up their own problems. It's all BS. Just lie all of the Race and Nazi *HOAXES* that have been perpetrated in recent years--all done by Liberals.

And the article also mentioned something about using larger dice, and making accommodations for a gamer in a wheelchair.

*I* have GIANT DICE in my collection, some of them, anyways--just because GIANT DICE are awesome, right? *Laughing*

These people are whining, crying, frauds just looking for a crisis that they, of course, can be the appointed experts and authorities to "FIX".

Just like all of the other BS "problems" that Libtards have claimed to exist within the hobby over the last 5 or 10 years.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

"the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

But she just made that up. There's no such stigma!

Edit: I strongly suspect that what she really wants is for people to tolerate fucked-up behaviour when wrapped in a blanket of neurodivergence. As opposed to (claimed) 'neurodivergent' people being encouraged to work out how to behave appropriately. The game table has always been a very welcoming place, sometimes excessively so ("Five Geek Social Fallacies"). It's very important not to normalise catpissman/lawncrapper behaviour though. That goes for me too; I'm slightly aspie and I'm aware I need to take a bit more care than the average person that my behaviour is socially appropriate.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 12:42:23 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 05, 2023, 11:14:45 AM
Imagine running a free forum and having your users bitch about your content delivery format and wanting to make a few bucks from a video.

No, this is about the RPG Pundit trying to get more views on his Youtube page. 

That's fine, if he wants to post a video instead of a thread where he talks about a subject, I guess I just won't engage.

More views translates to more engagement, which causes the algorithm to recommend the video to more people, which potentially translates to more bucks either through YT ads, or through new sales of Pundit's products from people who may have watch his videos. You're not really disputing what rytrasmi said, you're just doubling down on the idea that the guy who owns the site posting his own videos in his own site rather than giving us a full break down of the video on the thread is some kind of faux pas.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 05, 2023, 08:22:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 05, 2023, 07:14:50 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 05, 2023, 07:00:56 PM
Woke publication Wired > RPGers are prejudiced against "neurodivergent" people. Because reasons.
Pundit > "Will you look at the idiots!"
Me > ROTFLMAO!

None of which is true so Wired is just making stuff up?  Great.

Why dont they go back to talking about computer topics and leave the rest to other people more competent to talk about them?

I think this is the article which Pundit is talking about. It's on Wired from May 2, by Laurence Russell.

https://www.wired.com/story/neurodivergent-gamers-tabletop-rpgs/

It starts:

Quote from: Laurence RussellTHE TABLETOP GAMING community offers a place for communication and togetherness that can be incredibly rare in modern culture. It's a privilege that nerds have gotten better at sharing in recent years, particularly with those who need community most.

Dr. Elizabeth Kilmer is a clinical psychologist who uses tabletop role-playing games (TTRPGs) in therapy, and she herself was diagnosed with ADHD. "Narrative and metaphor have been used in therapy, healing, and educational practices for a long time," she explains. "You can see examples in folk tales, parables, and other oral traditions. TTRPGs can be a powerful tool because they are so interactive, and they allow us to be vulnerable through our character, while protecting ourselves."

"At the role-playing table, we can pretend to be braver than we feel in real life," agrees Jacob Wood, founder of the Accessible Games Blog and a longtime blind TTRPG player and GM. "Through fantasy, I learned to be comfortable talking to groups of other people, even if I didn't know them very well. Without these chances to express myself, I'd still be hiding away in my house on my own."

Understanding the Problem
As experts who have brought tabletop gaming to disabled and neurodiverse people for years, and part of the community themselves, people like Wood and Kilmer have created accommodations for people who haven't always been able to participate.

"Communication is hard," Kilmer reminds us. "Passive and indirect communication strategies can be particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals (and isn't great for neurotypicals either). This can contribute to the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

And what kind of accommodation would that be?

We've been handling disabled players for a while. Larger dice and sheets, making sure there's room at the table for the player in a wheel chair, etc.

So I'm curious as to what kind of accommodation would be necessary.

But you know, I have a suspicion. Might be unwarranted, I'll grant that. But I wonder if the issue is some fuckwit wrapped themselves in the 'neurodivergent' blanket and cried because they got kicked out of groups for being stupid/disruptive/creepy.

The kind that allows the wokescolds to co-opt cause of "helping" neurodivergents to use them as a shield to push their agenda onto the hobby, on behalf on people who not only have always been accommodated, but practically dominate the hobby's core demographic.

Quote from: S'mon on May 06, 2023, 02:30:51 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 05, 2023, 07:26:15 PM
"the stigma that autistic and ADHD players shouldn't or can't play TTPRGs."

It reads to me that TTRPGs are generally positive for neurodivergent people, but that things could be better with more accommodation.

But she just made that up. There's no such stigma!

I agree. That line did not stand out to me when I pasted in the article intro. Both subjects talked about the overall positive experience they had from TTRPGs. To me, the article overall was about accommodations to help blind and neurodivergent RPG players, not complaining about prejudice. I can see that the implication is there in the "stigma" line, though.

I think there has been some stigma against autism-spectrum people in general, where "autistic" is used as an insult and they are shunned for being annoying. However, the TTRPG community has been better than most other parts of society for that.

A pity handjob?!  That made me laugh sardonically!  Hilariously evil!

In all seriousness, I treat people with dignity and kindness as a rule to include people that I would not choose to game with.

My charity ends when the purpose of the game is wrecked by anyone's problems.  I am playing for fun.  If it's not fun, why would I invest my limited post work post parenting time in the activity?

If someone cannot follow a few basic social rules, I just can't do it.  Not realizing others want some snacks too and put your hands in the chip dip?  Say inappropriate things to my family who may be passing by the vicinity?  Talking over the gamemaster such that we can't play because you want to talk about trains?

I love you!  I wish you the best!  By my time matters too!  I am patient but there are limitations.  I am sorry.  It is healthy to have some degree of self interest!

If you fuck up and need help reading or finding the right die?  I am likely to pause and help quite a few times.  That does not make the game (or me) a monster if there are limits.

Ah, the ol circle of woke life. har har. People are predictable.....we've always gotta be putting someone down....labeling them...as other.

Good video pundit.

In my experience the TTRPG community has a proportionally higher number of neurodivergent folks than most hobbies or society at large.

Giving this author a generous benefit of the doubt, perhaps the issue she sees is that the more "mainstream" folks new to the hobby are less tolerant of people on the spectrum. As the hobby goes mainstream it picks up mainstream problems.

Quote from: Festus on May 06, 2023, 11:44:58 AM
Giving this author a generous benefit of the doubt, perhaps the issue she sees is that the more "mainstream" folks new to the hobby are less tolerant of people on the spectrum. As the hobby goes mainstream it picks up mainstream problems.

I haven't seen any sign of that either. And frankly even my newer players, literal professional actors, Critical Role fans,
(a) Still have a few aspy traits - I was amazed when one of the actors started compiling a detailed database on the PCs in his group
(b) Play fine with the more high on the autism spectrum grognard players. Indeed they tend to strongly value the kind of powergamer focus my most autistic & grognard player brings to the table; without her cascades of well-timed fireballs there'd be a lot more dead thespian PCs! 

If anything I tend to think it's aspy players who tend to annoy other aspy players. Like when GeekyBugle here goes on a rant over some miscommunication from another poster.  Normal people don't tend to get that "Someone is WRONG on the Internet!" urge nearly as strongly. 

Quote from: S'mon on May 06, 2023, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: Festus on May 06, 2023, 11:44:58 AM
Giving this author a generous benefit of the doubt, perhaps the issue she sees is that the more "mainstream" folks new to the hobby are less tolerant of people on the spectrum. As the hobby goes mainstream it picks up mainstream problems.

I haven't seen any sign of that either. And frankly even my newer players, literal professional actors, Critical Role fans,
(a) Still have a few aspy traits - I was amazed when one of the actors started compiling a detailed database on the PCs in his group
(b) Play fine with the more high on the autism spectrum grognard players. Indeed they tend to strongly value the kind of powergamer focus my most autistic & grognard player brings to the table; without her cascades of well-timed fireballs there'd be a lot more dead thespian PCs! 

If anything I tend to think it's aspy players who tend to annoy other aspy players. Like when GeekyBugle here goes on a rant over some miscommunication from another poster.  Normal people don't tend to get that "Someone is WRONG on the Internet!" urge nearly as strongly. 

I take offense to that!

I'm normal, a normal aspie that is! 

Yeah, saying that gamers, the people who can argue for an hour over the order of operations on applying a +1 bonus to an attack roll, have it in for autistic people is... woefully ignorant.  Now if someone has some weird screaming freakout at the table if a player doesn't keep all their dice on a certain face, yeah, that sort of neurodivergent is a problem for people to deal with for their social tabletop games.  But I've never seen any gaming group sweat the small stuff when it comes to social awkwardness, spectrum based or otherwise.

Quote from: Valatar on May 06, 2023, 03:29:22 PM
Yeah, saying that gamers, the people who can argue for an hour over the order of operations on applying a +1 bonus to an attack roll, have it in for autistic people is... woefully ignorant.  Now if someone has some weird screaming freakout at the table if a player doesn't keep all their dice on a certain face, yeah, that sort of neurodivergent is a problem for people to deal with for their social tabletop games.  But I've never seen any gaming group sweat the small stuff when it comes to social awkwardness, spectrum based or otherwise.

Or the dice being of different color/size, or the books on the shelf not being in a particular order (which is different for everyone), ordering pizza with pineapple (I'm guilty of ordering the pizza)...