Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 14, 2022, 04:25:39 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 03:50:13 PM
What exactly would be wrong with playing a S&S game where the players are slavers?

The same thing that would be wrong with a game in which players had their characters regularly violate female prisoners, to cite a parallel equally disturbing issue. No actual crime is committed against any real being and so nothing objectively immoral is actually happening, but the squick factor involved in contemplating what people are enjoying fantasizing about is real and significant.

Is it proof of real psychological issues? Not necessarily in itself. But keep it up long enough and gleefully enough, and with enough disdain for anybody else's enjoyment at the table, and it's a warning flag.

(Let's acknowledge for the record that a game in which the primary focus of PC activity as a group was running a slave-trading outfit for fun and profit wouldn't be the same as a game where some of the players start off in that job, then abandon it as they find S&S style adventuring is more exciting and pays better. But this is, again, the difference between the presence of social injustices as an element in a background or setting, and the Woke insistence that social injustices in a setting must be (a) either the obligatory target of PC activity to overthrow, or (b) not present at all.)

So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it? Riiight...

Also, at who's table are you going to be earning all this disdain from? Did I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?

And what are people fantasizing about exactly here? More raping women I suppose and setting children on fire perhaps?

Gotta' love a prude.

Quote from: oggsmash on February 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PM
I would be creeped out if I had a player wanting to violate women in game, and honestly it would never happen as the players are vetted to a degree it is not going to happen.  But I can't really  equate rape to slavery with the conditions I laid out before.   Sword and Sorcery though, especially if we talk Howard, is extremely morally grey, and sometimes really dark grey.

Exactly...

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 14, 2022, 06:18:51 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on February 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PMSorry, but not buying that rape in a game is the same, in any way to a PC giving a defeated opponent the chance to be a slave rather than die.

I think it's probably a good idea not to go down the rabbit hole of which is the "worse" thing for a PC to be: a rapist or a slaver.

Hence my firm belief that it's much better for a game -- as in, something meant to be fun for all the participants -- not to facilitate either as options, or analogous terrible careers/vices (I wouldn't allow a Shadowrun PC who had gotten into dealing illegal BTL chips, either, not unless the player assured me the character's story was going to be about getting out of the life and going straight).

But again, just because I think such things should be discouraged as common or desirable options for PC activity is not the same as saying the only way they can be present at all is as targets of PC activity.  If a particular group of players really wants to go dark, I'm not setting myself up as the judge of whether they should be "allowed to" or not. The Woke, by contrast, are not only setting themselves up as this kind of judge, but appear to be setting the bar for what isn't "unacceptably dark" to be so ridiculously high that nothing grittier than a kindergarten story can easily meet it.

  Its not a rabbit hole, with the context I presented a rapist is worse, period.

One of the ironies of the TTRPG SJWs crusade against slavery is that it comes about from a perspective that envisions victors in battle completely killing enemies down to the last man. In this moral framework, mass murder is preferable to slavery.

Lets imagine a hypothetical D&D-like game where players are regularly engaging in conflict, but battles aren't always conflicts of complete extermination. The gang of bandits surrenders after about 10% of their buddies are injured or killed. Now you have a group of ne'er do-wells that have surrendered to you, but what the hell do you do with them? Your local town has a single sheriff with a cell and a bunch of farmers that he sometimes calls up if he needs help. There's no prison system and barely a legal system at all. What do you do?

Apparently, it's better to kill these guys than to sell them into servitude.

Quote from: Zelen on February 14, 2022, 07:19:57 PM
One of the ironies of the TTRPG SJWs crusade against slavery is that it comes about from a perspective that envisions victors in battle completely killing enemies down to the last man. In this moral framework, mass murder is preferable to slavery.

Lets imagine a hypothetical D&D-like game where players are regularly engaging in conflict, but battles aren't always conflicts of complete extermination. The gang of bandits surrenders after about 10% of their buddies are injured or killed. Now you have a group of ne'er do-wells that have surrendered to you, but what the hell do you do with them? Your local town has a single sheriff with a cell and a bunch of farmers that he sometimes calls up if he needs help. There's no prison system and barely a legal system at all. What do you do?

Apparently, it's better to kill these guys than to sell them into servitude.

Naw, I'm sure that there are better uses for them.

Punishment Battalion - put the "reformed" bandits in the vanguard of your army and have them take the brunt of a frontal assault.

Transportation - ship them off to a newly settled land where they can't annoy the kingdom again.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 06:38:44 PM
So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it?

I didn't cite rape as a point further along the spectrum from slave-trading, I cited it as a second example of the same set of concepts: something it would (in my view) be perfectly reasonable to be at least a little disturbed to find out a fellow player enjoyed imagining his character doing, and wanted to spend game time on playing out.

Of course, given that historically most slavers and slave-owners were rapists, maybe the slippery slope is more relevant than I thought at first.

QuoteDid I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?

No, but I don't think you have to be a player of a "twee law-abiding elf" to find the idea of a fellow player enjoying buying and selling sapient beings (even if only in his imagination) something you'd rather not have at the gaming table.  (And if everybody in the group is into slave-trading with the same degree of enjoyment, well, more power to them, but that isn't exactly less disturbing.)

I'd like to think that we can reject the Woke censorship of the entire concept of slavery, or other "problematic" historical phenomena, as a permissible setting element and still acknowledge that the idea of players taking up slave-trading, or other similarly appalling careers, for fun has more than a little potential squick factor. That's all I have to say on the topic.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 15, 2022, 12:45:26 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 06:38:44 PM
So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it?

I didn't cite rape as a point further along the spectrum from slave-trading, I cited it as a second example of the same set of concepts: something it would (in my view) be perfectly reasonable to be at least a little disturbed to find out a fellow player enjoyed imagining his character doing, and wanted to spend game time on playing out.

Of course, given that historically most slavers and slave-owners were rapists, maybe the slippery slope is more relevant than I thought at first.

QuoteDid I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?

No, but I don't think you have to be a player of a "twee law-abiding elf" to find the idea of a fellow player enjoying buying and selling sapient beings (even if only in his imagination) something you'd rather not have at the gaming table.  (And if everybody in the group is into slave-trading with the same degree of enjoyment, well, more power to them, but that isn't exactly less disturbing.)

I'd like to think that we can reject the Woke censorship of the entire concept of slavery, or other "problematic" historical phenomena, as a permissible setting element and still acknowledge that the idea of players taking up slave-trading, or other similarly appalling careers, for fun has more than a little potential squick factor. That's all I have to say on the topic.

For you, perhaps. You strike me as one of those prudish religious types. And you've also made the same ilogical leaps as before.

I think we, as others have already stated, all would find any kind of rape at a table very uncomfortable, but that was never an issue because it wouldn't be done. That's something you brought up yourself to try and misdirect away from your one dimensional argument.

So given that rape is not allowed (or wanted) your history of 'real' slavers is not really relevant is it? Ergo what 'real' slavers did would not be acted out at the table of an elf-game.

Also, as I've already stated. A slaver game would never be just one slaver player while playing with other players who might be too emotionally or intellectually weak to separate 'fact from fiction'. It would be played by a group of like-minded people for fun. So, therefore no one would be 'uncomfortable' because everyone would have consented to the campaign-style and tone.

So your arguments are bullshit because you can't separate fact from fiction.

I'd like to think we can also reject religious prudes who attempt to control what we can or can't play for fun. Who also try to employ emotional pleading and woke scolding tactics. You, need to be on the big purple, simple as.

That's not all I'll say on the matter.

There's nothing inherently wrong with using slavery as a concept or plot device in fiction, entertainment, or RPG's. Nothing. The fact it's part of a story does not imply you support real world enslavement, although one daft actress has already suggested banning some Shakespeare because it mentions the issue. Slavery is already illegal in most countries around the world. Here in Britain we started legislating against it in the 1830's, and any loophole in British law about slaves was closed in 2006. Dare I mention the Anti-Slavery Act of 2015?. One American state was abolitionist in 1805. So why is there a campaign against slavery now?

(well, my own two cents is that it's political and social activists trying to create public movements they can manipulate, either for some leftist class war or depending who is pulling the reins, a change in racial priority)

'Woke' is stupidity, not awareness. So game on fellas.

Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
'Woke' is stupidity, not awareness. So game on fellas.

Well said, sir.

I would note that in any game with an alignment system, active participation in the slave trade is grounds for shifting alignment away from good to neutral at the least.

Oh, and sucks to be you if you're suddenly the target of abolitionist hit teams. Funny how that works out.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 15, 2022, 08:13:54 AM
I would note that in any game with an alignment system, active participation in the slave trade is grounds for shifting alignment away from good to neutral at the least.

Oh, and sucks to be you if you're suddenly the target of abolitionist hit teams. Funny how that works out.

Yeah, I would assume that all the players would be all evil or neutral at best.

Depending on the setting that would be a good way to thwart the players. Or you could have them raided/captured by another member of the family of one of the captive slaves.

Or if they were on a ship and it was damaged in a storm for example, you could end up on an island with all the slaves free and now looking for revenge. Lord of the flies.

Lots of great story potential (with the right players of course).

Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?

Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.

Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)

Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM

Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?

Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.

Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)

I hope you sell a good amount but please come back with receipts of the angry blue checkmarks that....wait they don't play Traveller, never mind.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM

Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?

Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.

Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)

   At casual reading of the description, that book certainly seems to be about Space China (and it would be fitting since China actively engages in slavery).    As to the awareness thing....I framed my case as to where I could see a slavery situation rising in a game, but to be honest, whatever the gm and players agree to is their business.   I have been looking at traveller for a while and the next book buying binge I go on will likely be traveller.  Bold move to write a space china book though.

Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies.

On the outside of a game, I'd agree with that sentiment.

However, personally, I find the concept completely void within the context of an imaginary RPG, YMMV.