Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
The fact they have to kickstart it speaks volumes.
What's the damned point of period pieces if you're just going to white wash everything with modern sensibilities and values?
How much more inclusivity do you need for "If the Old Ones wake, everyone dies,"? ???
Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on January 20, 2022, 09:00:08 AM
Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
They are really trying hard to convince everyone that it's just fine to be utterly insane.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 20, 2022, 09:27:42 AM
The fact they have to kickstart it speaks volumes.
in fairness, pretty much everyone but WotC and Paizo kickstarts nowadays; it's too handy for determining audience interest and getting guaranteed funding out of the gate.
Quote
What's the damned point of period pieces if you're just going to white wash everything with modern sensibilities and values?
Well, it's designed for play at just about any time in what they call the "Weird Century" and I might call the Century of Madness (which I place from 1917 to the present, although the game starts in the 20s).
I'm more struck by 'Why Cthulhu?' Is this hobby really so bereft of imagination and originality that we have to keep recycling the exact same tropes with only bolt-ons to make them conform to the ideological whims of the cults of Mammon, Astoreth, and Moloch?
::Looks around at present Western pop culture::
Never mind.
Well.....it'll likely get funded and probably really well. But, there's already a fantastic Cthulhu game. This will ....maybe get played by some groups, but it's just more virtue signalling in my opinion.
Are the present games not inclusive enough? I can't imagine how. The rules never disallow you from playing a black lesbian or other minority. IIRC there weren't even rules for bigotry until a few years ago.
This should really come as no big surprise tbh.
We've already seen it from Fred hicks, Monte Cooke and now from the biggest wokie cokie, Green Ronin. it's all about the cash. It must sicken them that they have to ride of the coat tails of the unstoppable and totally woke free works of H.P. Lovecraft.
I love the irony, personally.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.... please sir, can we have some more? Sing for your supper, fuckers! ;D
Title of the thread should really have been "Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, Fhtang!
"
Quote from: Skullking on January 20, 2022, 02:16:42 PM
Title of the thread should really have been "Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, Fhtang!
"
I much prefer Jordan Peterson's Diversity Inclusion and Equity anacronym:DIE.
They're making a woke Cthulhu game, when a woke Cthulhu game is already one of the top five most popular RPGs in the world? What need is this serving?
Joke's on them. Cthulhu has already awakened and the world failed it's sanity check years ago.
QuoteThey're making a woke Cthulhu game, when a woke Cthulhu game is already one of the top five most popular RPGs in the world? What need is this serving?
I guess they do not find CoC woke enough. I mean after all CoC merely advise you can diminish presence of various past-time inequalities if they bother your players, rather than straight up order it and demand anyone with different opinion to NOT PLAY THEM.
Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on January 20, 2022, 09:00:08 AM
Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
Bisexual coloring.
The guy's Twitter https://twitter.com/YesImTroy in case anyone is interested.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on January 21, 2022, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on January 20, 2022, 09:00:08 AM
Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
Bisexual coloring.
The guy's Twitter https://twitter.com/YesImTroy in case anyone is interested.
Pronouns in bio, socialist (the rose is the signal), pro Burn Loot Murder, thinks some racial slurs are okay if aimed at white people...
Anyhow I wasn't planning on buying anything from woke runing anytime soon.
The Tentacles in this adventure do not see color, race, nationality, sex, or gender. They are blind, therefore they are fair. You see, in the end everyone dies.
That's problematic.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 21, 2022, 11:22:28 PM
The Tentacles in this adventure do not see color, race, nationality, sex, or gender.
So they are racist sexist
and transphobic? :o
The old ones bring the equity of the crushed scorched gnawed and partially dissolved skull fragment tumbling endlessly in tortured space, revealed to no mortal eye, yet chilled by the Tindalic alien light that comes at strange angles from the fulminous emptiness that staggers shambolically in a loathsome parody of some idiot dancing mournfully between the uncaring stars.
Starry Wisdom is hate wisdom.
Quote from: S'mon on January 22, 2022, 03:55:15 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 21, 2022, 11:22:28 PM
The Tentacles in this adventure do not see color, race, nationality, sex, or gender.
So they are racist sexist and transphobic? :o
I can see it now, Twitter cancellations will officially be an effective banishment ritual.
OMG Nyarlathotep that is like so gross. You are such a chud. Yikes. And what's with the appropriating Egyptian names? If the old ones don't want to give people the wrong idea they need to cut ties with you.
We should just make all the monsters 'milk white' and we are good to go.
Job's a good 'un...
Cthulhu (who sounds like Nandor from What We Do in the Shadows) sends forth the PCs to find out what the fuck a "tweet" is, why he's losing followers at an unbelievable pace, and what he can do about it.
Massive interdimensional social media war between Cthulhu, who is completely caught with his britches down, and Hastur the Unspeakable (who caught onto this stuff because he was paying attention and not asleep under the ocean, and decided to be On The Right Side Of History to gain huge amounts of followers and became Hastur the Speaks Truth To Power). The Yellow Sign undergoes some color changes, still has the same effect. The King in Yellow becomes The Yaaas Queen. That sort of thing. Inclusive? Oh yes, we devour everybody.
"And you're sure painting my tentacles blue will help?"
Well, what is cosmic horror about, if it's not about the fact that the world can't handle certain beings being true to their truth?
The ultimate bigotry: paradigmism.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on January 21, 2022, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on January 20, 2022, 09:00:08 AM
Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
Bisexual coloring.
The guy's Twitter https://twitter.com/YesImTroy in case anyone is interested.
- Links to thread by AngryBlackLady (https://mobile.twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/status/1487914013757349892) (I seriously couldn't make this up if I tried) with "I encourage my fellow white people to spend time reading and listening to black people sharing insights like this." (https://twitter.com/YesImTroy/status/1487925610554933248)
- Gets single reply in their own thread from Black person who shares their vid about the nature of white supremacy (https://youtu.be/zIRgFnBSc28) and quotes "Our Constitution protects hateful speech, but truly free speech means the BEST ideas will win out. We need students to listen to ideas they hate and respond with BETTER ones". (https://mobile.twitter.com/LoftonSaab/status/1488158508474257416)
- Reply hidden under "Show additional replies, including those which may contain offensive content".
It really is insufferable.
Listen to PoC voices unless they deviate from the party line. Predictable.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll on January 21, 2022, 01:34:00 PM
Quote from: Matrix Sorcica on January 20, 2022, 09:00:08 AM
Green Ronin is Kickstartering a diverse, inclusive Mythos RPG, powered by AGE. Even the title tells the Great Old One becomes woke.
https://greenronin.com/blog/2022/01/19/green-ronin-announces-cthulhu-awakens-kickstarter/
Bisexual coloring.
The guy's Twitter https://twitter.com/YesImTroy in case anyone is interested.
His twitter looked exactly as I would have expected...BUT I did notice he seems to be against intervention in Ukraine, so even a broken watch can be right a couple times a day. I suspect once he realizes his "side" is now directed by raetheon, he will change his views once they are uploaded to him.
QuoteIn the game the original Mythos stories hinted at the truth, but it was obscured by their authors' biases and fallibilities.
Okay, so what happens if your pitch is "Cthulhu, but woke" and then one of your authors gets voted off Woke Survivor island? I don't know anything about most of these contributors, but out of a dozen, somebody is going to do something cancel-worthy eventually.
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 21, 2022, 11:22:28 PM
The Tentacles in this adventure do not see color, race, nationality, sex, or gender. They are blind, therefore they are fair. You see, in the end everyone dies.
" These tentacles attempt to assimilate and colonialize by erasing the identities of minorities. "
Quote from: palaeomerus on February 07, 2022, 09:09:35 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on January 21, 2022, 11:22:28 PM
The Tentacles in this adventure do not see color, race, nationality, sex, or gender. They are blind, therefore they are fair. You see, in the end everyone dies.
" These tentacles attempt to assimilate and colonialize by erasing the identities of minorities. "
I would say eating them would very efficiently erase their identity.
On the one hand the Cosmic Horror of Lovecraft isn't actually that far removed from the philosophical roots of the current post-modern 'everything is subjective there is no higher truth' orthodoxy espoused by some far left extremists.
On the other hand the progressive obsession with "rehabilitating" and sanitising Lovecraft and the Mythos is somewhat baffling. Part of the horror is precisely the idea that sacred truths (be they scientific, religious or political) are revealed to be futile and infantile delusions.
I say 'somewhat' because a sad truth is there are some people who simply can't separate reality from fiction and so something like Lovecraft is a little much for them to engage with in a gaming session and then leave at the gaming table.
Quote from: Plotinus on January 20, 2022, 09:32:02 PM
They're making a woke Cthulhu game, when a woke Cthulhu game is already one of the top five most popular RPGs in the world? What need is this serving?
If you are talking about Call of Cthulhu 7E, it is not "woke". There is the obligatory note about how a realistic portrayal of the 1920s would imply colonialism, racism, misogyny and the usual suspects - and thus it is better for all players to agree to it. That's all (we play in "realistic" '20s). Considering how the World is going today, we CoC heads are still lucky.
It is true that the videos with news and previews from Chaosium stink a bit of wokeness, but with 40+ years of compatible supplements they could become full woke tomorrow and the game would not suffer a bit.
Quote from: Visitor Q on February 13, 2022, 08:43:36 AMI say 'somewhat' because a sad truth is there are some people who simply can't separate reality from fiction and so something like Lovecraft is a little much for them to engage with in a gaming session and then leave at the gaming table.
I wouldn't always call that a "sad" truth; as a Catholic that's pretty much my stance-- I can enjoy Lovecraft's horror in occasional small doses through short stories, but accepting the premises with the active, long-term personal engagement of an RPG campaign simply doesn't sound like any fun for me, so I don't do it.
The difference is that I don't make a social advocacy campaign out of cancelling everyone who disagrees with me on that.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 13, 2022, 02:46:35 PM
Quote from: Visitor Q on February 13, 2022, 08:43:36 AMI say 'somewhat' because a sad truth is there are some people who simply can't separate reality from fiction and so something like Lovecraft is a little much for them to engage with in a gaming session and then leave at the gaming table.
I wouldn't always call that a "sad" truth; as a Catholic that's pretty much my stance-- I can enjoy Lovecraft's horror in occasional small doses through short stories, but accepting the premises with the active, long-term personal engagement of an RPG campaign simply doesn't sound like any fun for me, so I don't do it.
The difference is that I don't make a social advocacy campaign out of cancelling everyone who disagrees with me on that.
I think what you're describing is a preference and level of engagement based on real world beliefs which is perfectly reasonable and happens all the time.
What I meant, probably clumsily articulated on my part, is that it seems that some people literally can't separate reality from fiction. In other words if there is a percieved injustice in a fictional setting this needs to be solved with the same ardour as if it were a real world injustice.
Quote from: Visitor Q on February 13, 2022, 07:07:28 PMWhat I meant, probably clumsily articulated on my part, is that it seems that some people literally can't separate reality from fiction. In other words if there is a percieved injustice in a fictional setting this needs to be solved with the same ardour as if it were a real world injustice.
Fair point, my apologies if I came across as prickly. I think it's not so much that these hyper-advocates can't distinguish fiction from reality as that they believe fiction is inevitably connected
to reality through the audience's minds, thus influencing it. Depicting an injustice in a fictional setting in any way that suggests it's "normal" or "nothing unusual" is considered to contribute to "normalizing" it for the audience, so solving fictional injustices
is just as important as solving real ones because the former will inevitably contribute to the latter coming to pass if not countered.
If your setting features slavery, for example, but your story isn't about how evil slavery is and your plot about how it was ended, you're subconsciously influencing people to think slavery is just another form of human law and culture, and thus making it more likely that it might be deemed widely acceptable in the future and thus once again instituted. Or so the thinking goes.
A lot of people espousing such ideas are also utopians with a very Protean view of human nature and a totalizing ideology, so for them, a perfect world is both achievable within Time and the necessary end of every endeavor.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 13, 2022, 07:16:38 PM
Fair point, my apologies if I came across as prickly. I think it's not so much that these hyper-advocates can't distinguish fiction from reality as that they believe fiction is inevitably connected to reality through the audience's minds, thus influencing it. Depicting an injustice in a fictional setting in any way that suggests it's "normal" or "nothing unusual" is considered to contribute to "normalizing" it for the audience, so solving fictional injustices is just as important as solving real ones because the former will inevitably contribute to the latter coming to pass if not countered.
If your setting features slavery, for example, but your story isn't about how evil slavery is and your plot about how it was ended, you're subconsciously influencing people to think slavery is just another form of human law and culture, and thus making it more likely that it might be deemed widely acceptable in the future and thus once again instituted. Or so the thinking goes.
Featuring slavery in a game without challenging it is a form of "making fun" using the concept, isn't it? It's using slavery for spice.
I can imaging gamers being morally tough enough to participate in a game featuring unchallenged slavery, without being corrupted into the type of thinking you mention, but it's still got an icky dimension to it, that challenging it would ameliorate. Evil campaigns are frowned on for a good reason, methinks.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 14, 2022, 11:52:03 AM
Evil campaigns are frowned on for a good reason, methinks.
Only by those who can't separate fantasy from reality. It's only a game.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 14, 2022, 11:52:03 AM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 13, 2022, 07:16:38 PM
Fair point, my apologies if I came across as prickly. I think it's not so much that these hyper-advocates can't distinguish fiction from reality as that they believe fiction is inevitably connected to reality through the audience's minds, thus influencing it. Depicting an injustice in a fictional setting in any way that suggests it's "normal" or "nothing unusual" is considered to contribute to "normalizing" it for the audience, so solving fictional injustices is just as important as solving real ones because the former will inevitably contribute to the latter coming to pass if not countered.
If your setting features slavery, for example, but your story isn't about how evil slavery is and your plot about how it was ended, you're subconsciously influencing people to think slavery is just another form of human law and culture, and thus making it more likely that it might be deemed widely acceptable in the future and thus once again instituted. Or so the thinking goes.
Featuring slavery in a game without challenging it is a form of "making fun" using the concept, isn't it? It's using slavery for spice.
I can imaging gamers being morally tough enough to participate in a game featuring unchallenged slavery, without being corrupted into the type of thinking you mention, but it's still got an icky dimension to it, that challenging it would ameliorate. Evil campaigns are frowned on for a good reason, methinks.
Having PCs who have slaves is not IMO an evil campaign. Historically there were lots of people who ended up slaves after getting their asses kicked in military conflict they willingly engaged in. So if a person tries to kill the PC, and the PC defeats that person and then makes them their slave, is that less moral or more evil than simply killing them in the first place? A period of bonded servitude is likely preferable for the adversary than death, even if that period if forever. People like to live. If not every slave in history would have killed themselves, and prison would not have a single inmate incarcerated for a life sentence.
I think it does get fuzzy though, and a Gm should run the idea by the players. I do not think it somehow corrupts a person (You do not have Tom Hanks at your table do you) unless that person has some sort of mental imbalance and can not tell the real world from the game world. In that case the issue is not things in the game.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 14, 2022, 11:52:03 AMFeaturing slavery in a game without challenging it is a form of "making fun" using the concept, isn't it? It's using slavery for spice.
Only if one considers failure to challenge as equivalent to active endorsement. I've said before that I wouldn't have much patience for a player who wanted to get his character into the active owning and trading of slaves, however fictional, but that's not the same as simply acknowledging that the phenomenon exists as part of a setting populated by human beings. It shouldn't be immoral to play in a campaign set in Ancient Rome simply because none of the PCs is Spartacus.
The same logic should suggest delegitimizing virtually
all roleplaying games, after all, if one considers casual (fictional) violence to be at least somewhat as morally problematic as (fictional) slavery, which most modern bodies of law do in real life.
What exactly would be wrong with playing a S&S game where the players are slavers?
It's not a million miles away from the 'heroic' antics of players who essentially enact genocide on whatever creature(s) get in their way and take their land(s) or treasure.
If people can't separate a fictional game concept from the real thing, then I think they definitely have some emotional or logical weakness. Or are hypocrites.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 03:50:13 PM
What exactly would be wrong with playing a S&S game where the players are slavers?
The same thing that would be wrong with a game in which players had their characters regularly violate female prisoners, to cite a parallel equally disturbing issue. No actual crime is committed against any real being and so nothing objectively immoral is actually happening, but the squick factor involved in contemplating what people are enjoying fantasizing about is real and significant.
Is it proof of real psychological issues? Not necessarily in itself. But keep it up long enough and gleefully enough, and with enough disdain for anybody else's enjoyment at the table, and it's a warning flag.
(Let's acknowledge for the record that a game in which the primary focus of PC activity as a group was running a slave-trading outfit for fun and profit wouldn't be the same as a game where some of the players start off in that job, then abandon it as they find S&S style adventuring is more exciting and pays better. But this is, again, the difference between the presence of social injustices as an element in a background or setting, and the Woke insistence that social injustices in a setting
must be (a) either the obligatory target of PC activity to overthrow, or (b) not present at all.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 14, 2022, 04:25:39 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 03:50:13 PM
What exactly would be wrong with playing a S&S game where the players are slavers?
The same thing that would be wrong with a game in which players had their characters regularly violate female prisoners, to cite a parallel equally disturbing issue. No actual crime is committed against any real being and so nothing objectively immoral is actually happening, but the squick factor involved in contemplating what people are enjoying fantasizing about is real and significant.
Is it proof of real psychological issues? Not necessarily in itself. But keep it up long enough and gleefully enough, and with enough disdain for anybody else's enjoyment at the table, and it's a warning flag.
(Let's acknowledge for the record that a game in which the primary focus of PC activity as a group was running a slave-trading outfit for fun and profit wouldn't be the same as a game where some of the players start off in that job, then abandon it as they find S&S style adventuring is more exciting and pays better. But this is, again, the difference between the presence of social injustices as an element in a background or setting, and the Woke insistence that social injustices in a setting must be (a) either the obligatory target of PC activity to overthrow, or (b) not present at all.)
Sorry, but not buying that rape in a game is the same, in any way to a PC giving a defeated opponent the chance to be a slave rather than die. I guess we can extrapolate this out to Conan and his attempted rape of Atali, but....and this is a comparison that makes me queasy....if she tried to murder him, and he lets her off with a rape given she is a mass murderer....the grey is overwhelming, but the reality is, his sin is lesser than hers. Now that is not something I think I care to get into at a gaming table, but PCs murder people regularly, especially from the antagonists perspective. Rarely in self defense too might I add. I do not want someone at my table who wants to get into violating imaginary women in game, but from a moral angle, considering all the death it is not "more" wrong. Running a group of complete slavers does imply evil in nature to me, who buy and trade in flesh, but...again assassin is a character class is it not?
I would be creeped out if I had a player wanting to violate women in game, and honestly it would never happen as the players are vetted to a degree it is not going to happen. But I can't really equate rape to slavery with the conditions I laid out before. Sword and Sorcery though, especially if we talk Howard, is extremely morally grey, and sometimes really dark grey.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PMSorry, but not buying that rape in a game is the same, in any way to a PC giving a defeated opponent the chance to be a slave rather than die.
I think it's probably a good idea not to go down the rabbit hole of which is the "worse" thing for a PC to be: a rapist or a slaver.
Hence my firm belief that it's much better for a game -- as in, something meant to be fun for all the participants -- not to facilitate either as options, or analogous terrible careers/vices (I wouldn't allow a Shadowrun PC who had gotten into dealing illegal BTL chips, either, not unless the player assured me the character's story was going to be about getting out of the life and going straight).
But again, just because I think such things should be discouraged as common or desirable options
for PC activity is not the same as saying the only way they can be present
at all is as targets
of PC activity. If a particular group of players really wants to go dark, I'm not setting myself up as the judge of whether they should be "allowed to" or not. The Woke, by contrast, are not only setting themselves up as this kind of judge, but appear to be setting the bar for what isn't "unacceptably dark" to be so ridiculously high that nothing grittier than a kindergarten story can easily meet it.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 14, 2022, 04:25:39 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 03:50:13 PM
What exactly would be wrong with playing a S&S game where the players are slavers?
The same thing that would be wrong with a game in which players had their characters regularly violate female prisoners, to cite a parallel equally disturbing issue. No actual crime is committed against any real being and so nothing objectively immoral is actually happening, but the squick factor involved in contemplating what people are enjoying fantasizing about is real and significant.
Is it proof of real psychological issues? Not necessarily in itself. But keep it up long enough and gleefully enough, and with enough disdain for anybody else's enjoyment at the table, and it's a warning flag.
(Let's acknowledge for the record that a game in which the primary focus of PC activity as a group was running a slave-trading outfit for fun and profit wouldn't be the same as a game where some of the players start off in that job, then abandon it as they find S&S style adventuring is more exciting and pays better. But this is, again, the difference between the presence of social injustices as an element in a background or setting, and the Woke insistence that social injustices in a setting must be (a) either the obligatory target of PC activity to overthrow, or (b) not present at all.)
So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it? Riiight...
Also, at who's table are you going to be earning all this disdain from? Did I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?
And what are people fantasizing about exactly here? More raping women I suppose and setting children on fire perhaps?
Gotta' love a prude.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PM
I would be creeped out if I had a player wanting to violate women in game, and honestly it would never happen as the players are vetted to a degree it is not going to happen. But I can't really equate rape to slavery with the conditions I laid out before. Sword and Sorcery though, especially if we talk Howard, is extremely morally grey, and sometimes really dark grey.
Exactly...
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 14, 2022, 06:18:51 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 14, 2022, 05:48:15 PMSorry, but not buying that rape in a game is the same, in any way to a PC giving a defeated opponent the chance to be a slave rather than die.
I think it's probably a good idea not to go down the rabbit hole of which is the "worse" thing for a PC to be: a rapist or a slaver.
Hence my firm belief that it's much better for a game -- as in, something meant to be fun for all the participants -- not to facilitate either as options, or analogous terrible careers/vices (I wouldn't allow a Shadowrun PC who had gotten into dealing illegal BTL chips, either, not unless the player assured me the character's story was going to be about getting out of the life and going straight).
But again, just because I think such things should be discouraged as common or desirable options for PC activity is not the same as saying the only way they can be present at all is as targets of PC activity. If a particular group of players really wants to go dark, I'm not setting myself up as the judge of whether they should be "allowed to" or not. The Woke, by contrast, are not only setting themselves up as this kind of judge, but appear to be setting the bar for what isn't "unacceptably dark" to be so ridiculously high that nothing grittier than a kindergarten story can easily meet it.
Its not a rabbit hole, with the context I presented a rapist is worse, period.
One of the ironies of the TTRPG SJWs crusade against slavery is that it comes about from a perspective that envisions victors in battle completely killing enemies down to the last man. In this moral framework, mass murder is preferable to slavery.
Lets imagine a hypothetical D&D-like game where players are regularly engaging in conflict, but battles aren't always conflicts of complete extermination. The gang of bandits surrenders after about 10% of their buddies are injured or killed. Now you have a group of ne'er do-wells that have surrendered to you, but what the hell do you do with them? Your local town has a single sheriff with a cell and a bunch of farmers that he sometimes calls up if he needs help. There's no prison system and barely a legal system at all. What do you do?
Apparently, it's better to kill these guys than to sell them into servitude.
Quote from: Zelen on February 14, 2022, 07:19:57 PM
One of the ironies of the TTRPG SJWs crusade against slavery is that it comes about from a perspective that envisions victors in battle completely killing enemies down to the last man. In this moral framework, mass murder is preferable to slavery.
Lets imagine a hypothetical D&D-like game where players are regularly engaging in conflict, but battles aren't always conflicts of complete extermination. The gang of bandits surrenders after about 10% of their buddies are injured or killed. Now you have a group of ne'er do-wells that have surrendered to you, but what the hell do you do with them? Your local town has a single sheriff with a cell and a bunch of farmers that he sometimes calls up if he needs help. There's no prison system and barely a legal system at all. What do you do?
Apparently, it's better to kill these guys than to sell them into servitude.
Naw, I'm sure that there are better uses for them.
Punishment Battalion - put the "reformed" bandits in the vanguard of your army and have them take the brunt of a frontal assault.
Transportation - ship them off to a newly settled land where they can't annoy the kingdom again.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 06:38:44 PM
So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it?
I didn't cite rape as a point further along the spectrum from slave-trading, I cited it as a second example of the same set of concepts: something it would (in my view) be perfectly reasonable to be at least a little disturbed to find out a fellow player enjoyed imagining his character doing, and wanted to spend game time on playing out.
Of course, given that historically most slavers and slave-owners
were rapists, maybe the slippery slope is more relevant than I thought at first.
QuoteDid I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?
No, but I don't think you have to be a player of a "twee law-abiding elf" to find the idea of a fellow player enjoying buying and selling sapient beings (even if only in his imagination) something you'd rather not have at the gaming table. (And if everybody in the group is into slave-trading with the same degree of enjoyment, well, more power to them, but that isn't exactly
less disturbing.)
I'd like to think that we can reject the Woke censorship of the entire concept of slavery, or other "problematic" historical phenomena, as a permissible setting element and still acknowledge that the idea of players taking up slave-trading, or other similarly appalling careers, for fun has more than a little potential squick factor. That's all I have to say on the topic.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on February 15, 2022, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on February 14, 2022, 06:38:44 PM
So, it's the slippery slope fallacy then? PCs are playing traveling slavers 'therefore' they must be rapists is it?
I didn't cite rape as a point further along the spectrum from slave-trading, I cited it as a second example of the same set of concepts: something it would (in my view) be perfectly reasonable to be at least a little disturbed to find out a fellow player enjoyed imagining his character doing, and wanted to spend game time on playing out.
Of course, given that historically most slavers and slave-owners were rapists, maybe the slippery slope is more relevant than I thought at first.
QuoteDid I actually suggest that one PC plays a slaver while the rest of the players are playing twee law-abiding elves at a woke scold's table?
No, but I don't think you have to be a player of a "twee law-abiding elf" to find the idea of a fellow player enjoying buying and selling sapient beings (even if only in his imagination) something you'd rather not have at the gaming table. (And if everybody in the group is into slave-trading with the same degree of enjoyment, well, more power to them, but that isn't exactly less disturbing.)
I'd like to think that we can reject the Woke censorship of the entire concept of slavery, or other "problematic" historical phenomena, as a permissible setting element and still acknowledge that the idea of players taking up slave-trading, or other similarly appalling careers, for fun has more than a little potential squick factor. That's all I have to say on the topic.
For you, perhaps. You strike me as one of those prudish religious types. And you've also made the same ilogical leaps as before.
I think we, as others have already stated, all would find any kind of rape at a table very uncomfortable, but that was never an issue because it wouldn't be done. That's something you brought up yourself to try and misdirect away from your one dimensional argument.
So given that rape is not allowed (or wanted) your history of 'real' slavers is not really relevant is it? Ergo what 'real' slavers did would not be acted out at the table of an elf-game.
Also, as I've already stated. A slaver game would never be just one slaver player while playing with other players who might be too emotionally or intellectually weak to separate 'fact from fiction'. It would be played by a group of like-minded people for fun. So, therefore no one would be 'uncomfortable' because everyone would have consented to the campaign-style and tone.
So your arguments are bullshit because you can't separate fact from fiction.
I'd like to think we can also reject religious prudes who attempt to control what we can or can't play for fun. Who also try to employ emotional pleading and woke scolding tactics. You, need to be on the big purple, simple as.
That's not all I'll say on the matter.
There's nothing inherently wrong with using slavery as a concept or plot device in fiction, entertainment, or RPG's. Nothing. The fact it's part of a story does not imply you support real world enslavement, although one daft actress has already suggested banning some Shakespeare because it mentions the issue. Slavery is already illegal in most countries around the world. Here in Britain we started legislating against it in the 1830's, and any loophole in British law about slaves was closed in 2006. Dare I mention the Anti-Slavery Act of 2015?. One American state was abolitionist in 1805. So why is there a campaign against slavery now?
(well, my own two cents is that it's political and social activists trying to create public movements they can manipulate, either for some leftist class war or depending who is pulling the reins, a change in racial priority)
'Woke' is stupidity, not awareness. So game on fellas.
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
'Woke' is stupidity, not awareness. So game on fellas.
Well said, sir.
I would note that in any game with an alignment system, active participation in the slave trade is grounds for shifting alignment away from good to neutral at the least.
Oh, and sucks to be you if you're suddenly the target of abolitionist hit teams. Funny how that works out.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 15, 2022, 08:13:54 AM
I would note that in any game with an alignment system, active participation in the slave trade is grounds for shifting alignment away from good to neutral at the least.
Oh, and sucks to be you if you're suddenly the target of abolitionist hit teams. Funny how that works out.
Yeah, I would assume that all the players would be all evil or neutral at best.
Depending on the setting that would be a good way to thwart the players. Or you could have them raided/captured by another member of the family of one of the captive slaves.
Or if they were on a ship and it was damaged in a storm for example, you could end up on an island with all the slaves free and now looking for revenge. Lord of the flies.
Lots of great story potential (with the right players of course).
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.
Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)
Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.
Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)
I hope you sell a good amount but please come back with receipts of the angry blue checkmarks that....wait they don't play Traveller, never mind.
Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.
Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)
At casual reading of the description, that book certainly seems to be about Space China (and it would be fitting since China actively engages in slavery). As to the awareness thing....I framed my case as to where I could see a slavery situation rising in a game, but to be honest, whatever the gm and players agree to is their business. I have been looking at traveller for a while and the next book buying binge I go on will likely be traveller. Bold move to write a space china book though.
Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies.
On the outside of a game, I'd agree with that sentiment.
However, personally, I find the concept completely void within the context of an imaginary RPG, YMMV.
Quote from: MongooseMatt on February 15, 2022, 10:40:14 AM
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
So why is there a campaign against slavery now?
Possibly because, despite laws, it still goes on today in first world countries. There is also an argument that could be made that the impacts of slavery in decades/centuries past still have an effect today on our societies. It is just an effort to create awareness by various means, good and maybe less well-advised.
Addendum: Before anyone jumps on me (!), we have literally (and quite recently) published a book about this for Traveller (https://www.mongoosepublishing.com/the-glorious-empire.html)
For a long time, the arc of human history was written in blood and tears. Only relatively recently have we started saying, 'No, this is wrong.'
But before you lecture those first world countries, you'd best be calling out everyone else practicing it.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 15, 2022, 08:13:54 AM
I would note that in any game with an alignment system, active participation in the slave trade is grounds for shifting alignment away from good to neutral at the least.
Oh, and sucks to be you if you're suddenly the target of abolitionist hit teams. Funny how that works out.
What if there's no movement against slavery, and it's just an accepted part of life? Where morality isn't defined by whether you keep slaves, but by how you treat them?
That was the case for much of human history.
Woke Cthulhu....no thanks.
Quote from: caldrail on February 15, 2022, 06:46:52 AM
There's nothing inherently wrong with using slavery as a concept or plot device in fiction, entertainment, or RPG's. Nothing. The fact it's part of a story does not imply you support real world enslavement, although one daft actress has already suggested banning some Shakespeare because it mentions the issue. Slavery is already illegal in most countries around the world.
I agree that there is nothing _inherently_ wrong with using slavery as a concept. I've enjoyed plenty of slave narratives like Spartacus, Harriet, and 12 Years a Slave. But there's also plenty of valid reasons why some gamers might just not like having it in their game - just like many other now-illegal things like torture, rape, and pedophilia that were common in ancient and medieval times.
Dealing with adult issues, especially those that impinge on player characters, sometimes need to be delivered with a measure of subtlety. Funnily enough, it was never enslavement that caused any problems with my players, just another obstacle to overcome. Sexual themes were harder to deal with.
Quote from: Mind Crime on January 20, 2022, 11:52:28 PM
Joke's on them. Cthulhu has already awakened and the world failed it's sanity check years ago.
Excellent.
Congrats, they've succeeded in making the Mythos boring.
I'm a huge HPL fan, but since the Cthulhu plushy and the overuse of the Mythos in gaming has occurred, I've found myself needing to dig deeper into his more obscure stories for inspiration.
BTW, if anyone wants to buy the BEST EVER supplement for their Mythos horror game of choice, I most heartily recommend SILENT LEGIONS by Sine Nomine. That book is freaking amazing as a RPG resource to personalize the Mythos into your creation.
Silent Legions is amazing. Dude always has tons of tables to inspire the creation of all the things. Usable with any RPG.
In other news...
[news anchor voice]
The "Woke go Broke" crowd took a blow to it's validity this week when Green Ronin Publishing kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenroninpub/cthulhu-awakens-roleplaying-game) their Cthulhu Awakens RPG using the AGE system. The designer has explicitly called out that the game setting infers HP Lovecraft's racism was simply a viewpoint and not an actual inherent part of the world or setting. The "Woke go Broke" crowd responded by dismissing the game as "boring" and "stupid". However numbers don't lie. Already amassing $56,612 over the $10,000 goal with a significant backer count exceeding 850, it looks like Cthulhu Awakens is not only going to do well, but will out-perform almost every RPG project the "Woke go Broke" crowd supported.
It's almost as if the opposite was true. The newly coined "Won't go Woke? Hope you like Broke." campaign has already started printing bumper stickers and intends to start a hashtag campaign to raise awareness of designers creating games that appeal to all players.
More on this and other stories at 11.
[/news anchor voice]
WOW almost 60k? For a company that has been making Game books for over 20 years? With a super popular IP too? Pretty damned good if you ask me. I feel like we need a picture of Doctor Evil here to gloat over his many thousands of dollars collected.
Kickstarter is great for Woke projects, you get the warm glow of virtue from funding the Wokeness, and can then forget about it. No need to actually play the game. ;D
Quote from: trechriron on February 17, 2022, 05:17:43 PM
Silent Legions is amazing. Dude always has tons of tables to inspire the creation of all the things. Usable with any RPG.
In other news...
[news anchor voice]
The "Woke go Broke" crowd took a blow to it's validity this week when Green Ronin Publishing kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenroninpub/cthulhu-awakens-roleplaying-game) their Cthulhu Awakens RPG using the AGE system. The designer has explicitly called out that the game setting infers HP Lovecraft's racism was simply a viewpoint and not an actual inherent part of the world or setting. The "Woke go Broke" crowd responded by dismissing the game as "boring" and "stupid". However numbers don't lie. Already amassing $56,612 over the $10,000 goal with a significant backer count exceeding 850, it looks like Cthulhu Awakens is not only going to do well, but will out-perform almost every RPG project the "Woke go Broke" crowd supported.
It's almost as if the opposite was true. The newly coined "Won't go Woke? Hope you like Broke." campaign has already started printing bumper stickers and intends to start a hashtag campaign to raise awareness of designers creating games that appeal to all players.
More on this and other stories at 11.
[/news anchor voice]
I look forward to pirating it.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 18, 2022, 10:36:28 AM
Quote from: trechriron on February 17, 2022, 05:17:43 PM
Silent Legions is amazing. Dude always has tons of tables to inspire the creation of all the things. Usable with any RPG.
In other news...
[news anchor voice]
The "Woke go Broke" crowd took a blow to it's validity this week when Green Ronin Publishing kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenroninpub/cthulhu-awakens-roleplaying-game) their Cthulhu Awakens RPG using the AGE system. The designer has explicitly called out that the game setting infers HP Lovecraft's racism was simply a viewpoint and not an actual inherent part of the world or setting. The "Woke go Broke" crowd responded by dismissing the game as "boring" and "stupid". However numbers don't lie. Already amassing $56,612 over the $10,000 goal with a significant backer count exceeding 850, it looks like Cthulhu Awakens is not only going to do well, but will out-perform almost every RPG project the "Woke go Broke" crowd supported.
It's almost as if the opposite was true. The newly coined "Won't go Woke? Hope you like Broke." campaign has already started printing bumper stickers and intends to start a hashtag campaign to raise awareness of designers creating games that appeal to all players.
More on this and other stories at 11.
[/news anchor voice]
I look forward to pirating it.
This made me LMAO. I guess that is an option, just steal shit from people who signal they hate you. Not sure how I feel about it. Maybe change the word pirate to privateer? Works for nations.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 10:39:58 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 18, 2022, 10:36:28 AM
Quote from: trechriron on February 17, 2022, 05:17:43 PM
Silent Legions is amazing. Dude always has tons of tables to inspire the creation of all the things. Usable with any RPG.
In other news...
[news anchor voice]
The "Woke go Broke" crowd took a blow to it's validity this week when Green Ronin Publishing kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenroninpub/cthulhu-awakens-roleplaying-game) their Cthulhu Awakens RPG using the AGE system. The designer has explicitly called out that the game setting infers HP Lovecraft's racism was simply a viewpoint and not an actual inherent part of the world or setting. The "Woke go Broke" crowd responded by dismissing the game as "boring" and "stupid". However numbers don't lie. Already amassing $56,612 over the $10,000 goal with a significant backer count exceeding 850, it looks like Cthulhu Awakens is not only going to do well, but will out-perform almost every RPG project the "Woke go Broke" crowd supported.
It's almost as if the opposite was true. The newly coined "Won't go Woke? Hope you like Broke." campaign has already started printing bumper stickers and intends to start a hashtag campaign to raise awareness of designers creating games that appeal to all players.
More on this and other stories at 11.
[/news anchor voice]
I look forward to pirating it.
This made me LMAO. I guess that is an option, just steal shit from people who signal they hate you. Not sure how I feel about it. Maybe change the word pirate to privateer? Works for nations.
I completely agree that it's very much at the far end of the spectrum of options.
I am also not going to try and wrap myself in any kind of moral justification for it, except for this:
Insulting me and telling me that they don't want my money strikes me as a poor business model. And if I'm annoyed enough, I will do what I can, however large or small, to inconvenience them in turn.
Besides, don't think of it as piracy. Think of it as wealth redistribution.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 18, 2022, 11:36:44 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 18, 2022, 10:39:58 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on February 18, 2022, 10:36:28 AM
Quote from: trechriron on February 17, 2022, 05:17:43 PM
Silent Legions is amazing. Dude always has tons of tables to inspire the creation of all the things. Usable with any RPG.
In other news...
[news anchor voice]
The "Woke go Broke" crowd took a blow to it's validity this week when Green Ronin Publishing kickstarted (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenroninpub/cthulhu-awakens-roleplaying-game) their Cthulhu Awakens RPG using the AGE system. The designer has explicitly called out that the game setting infers HP Lovecraft's racism was simply a viewpoint and not an actual inherent part of the world or setting. The "Woke go Broke" crowd responded by dismissing the game as "boring" and "stupid". However numbers don't lie. Already amassing $56,612 over the $10,000 goal with a significant backer count exceeding 850, it looks like Cthulhu Awakens is not only going to do well, but will out-perform almost every RPG project the "Woke go Broke" crowd supported.
It's almost as if the opposite was true. The newly coined "Won't go Woke? Hope you like Broke." campaign has already started printing bumper stickers and intends to start a hashtag campaign to raise awareness of designers creating games that appeal to all players.
More on this and other stories at 11.
[/news anchor voice]
I look forward to pirating it.
This made me LMAO. I guess that is an option, just steal shit from people who signal they hate you. Not sure how I feel about it. Maybe change the word pirate to privateer? Works for nations.
I completely agree that it's very much at the far end of the spectrum of options.
I am also not going to try and wrap myself in any kind of moral justification for it, except for this:
Insulting me and telling me that they don't want my money strikes me as a poor business model. And if I'm annoyed enough, I will do what I can, however large or small, to inconvenience them in turn.
Besides, don't think of it as piracy. Think of it as wealth redistribution.
LOL,you win the thread.
Player: "My purple hair, is a reflection of how I feel on the inside."
GM: "That's interesting, but Mighty Cthulhu is not impressed. I need you to roll a sanity check."
Player: "I rolled a natural 1. I've always wanted to be #1."
GM: "Your character curls up into the fetal position, and begins to cry uncontrollably."
Player: "It's not a fetus. It's just a blob of tissue."
GM: "OK. Your character curls up into a blob, and pees on themself."
Player: "My character is wearing a diaper, so it's not a big deal."
GM: "Mighty Cthulhu eats your character."
Player: "Why? Why? Why? That's not fair!!!"