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Rather than abuse the poor p v. m thunderdome, or the mega thread of doom (where it would get lost), I thought I'd start up a thread here to discuss some of the things I see the 'wizard uber alles' crowd throwing down like candy that, frankly, puzzle me slightly.

Anyway: Yes, discussion of wizard and anti-wizard fighter tactics is the purpose here.  

For example: MGuy pretty much ejaculated all over himself to cast Solid Fog on round one, and I couldn't help but notice that that Lord Mistborn seems to be a fan of that sucker too in his, frankly silly, write up.  

Solid fog: Several minutes of obnoxious foggyness in a small patch.

Now, I don't know MGuy's spell list, for example, but certainly, if I were a fighter facing Lord Mistborn I'd be pretty tempted to just hang out in the fog for a while, taunting him to burn spells at me while I'm under concealment (given that his rays suffer 50% concealment from his own fog, and the fog lasts longer than his summons do by a long shot...).  Of course, he's a special case, seeing as three quarters of his character can be beaten by... just having fire resistance. Say a 700 gp potion of energy resist: Fire...


I can see the spell being a minor irritant if the wizard guy has good spells to use against the trapped fighter, or if he's clever enough to react well to a fighter hiding in the fog for a while, but I'm not sure I see it as a fight 'winner' and as Thunderdome proved, its wasted if the other guy is flying too.



One odd question that's been bugging me is what people would rule, if they were the DM, and a Fighter with, say, the Cape of the Mountebank or some other teleport effect to 'reach' a flying wizard (or other monster) and start a grapple.

Would you let him even try to grapple or would he just fall stupidly?

If you let him grapple, would the grappled pair fall to earth (Fast? or Slow?)

Me? I'd let the fighter guy try it. Fail the grapple and yer fucked, sure.



Amusingly, I can still see the ranged fighter with his composite long bow +2 or whatever shooting the flying wizard from 1650 feet away, out of range for a vast majority of spells at tenth level. Lemme see: Dex Fighter, level ten, so we're looking at an say a +6 to hit from dex, plus the bow and feats... then -20 for ten range increments to start with... he's rolling against straight AC more or less, until the wizard closes (and at 'spell distance' for long range spells he's looking at... +8 or so?) Mguy posits a default 14 ac for wizardy types, but mistborn goes for the 18...  Either way, we're tossing off quite a few arrows (two a round with rapid reload) hoping for crits for that triple damage.

Most spells are close range, however (50 feet at tenth level for scorching ray or monster summoning, for example).

So, just for fun, we can posit a mounted archer on a fast flying mount who keeps his tenth level wizard opponent at just over 800 feet distance more or less (5 range bands), negating almost all of his spells, yet still firing full attack (two arrows a round) at the wizard at +8 and +3 to hit or better, hitting the average wizard 1 and a half times a round (we haven't even started on rapid fire yet...), and particularly well protected dex wizards roughly once a round.  Protection from normal missiles is useless against magic bow (and this is a cheap-o bow for a dedicated archer, a better bow means more hits, obviously), forcing the wizard to use alternative means to defend himself/attack.

Options: Summoning an Air Elemental might work if he can make the concentration check (summoning is a full round, so he's gonna get shot during casting), but half the elemental's duration is gonna be spent chasing the fighter, even if he doesn't decide to run away for a few rounds to wear it out. Airborne Mongols don't give a fuck about movement while shooting....

A windwall, if he has it, can buy the wizard time to cast (ten rounds, of course...), as it negates the archery completely, as does a forcewall (ditto), but the distance means he's casting it on himself. These are stalling tactics at best.  Teleport allows him to close the distance (assuming a personal fly spell and not a large flying beast... or maybe with a large flying beast), but the Archer can still get outside of the close range spells before the wizard can cast again... but that opens up medium range spells and may make summoning fast air elementals somewhat more viable.

Now: One question is of course: What is our guy riding? A purchased pegasus or hippogriff are both good choicse (as fast/faster than the air elemental) but are fragile, while a Griffon is not only NOT fragile, but should the wizard try the teleport pop, it has a nasty pounce/rake full attack option that pretty much can end the fight without arrows, and it is capable of fighting off most summoned creatures at level ten without (much) help from the rider (mounted combat is good here, allowing the rider (Ride skill roughly 17 or so...) to negate hits by rolling (raising the 'average' griffon ac to 27 (ten plus skill). Note that ANY use of the mounted combat feat at this point raises the griffons natural AC (from 17, to 17+d20).

Cohort mounts would suggest the fast and dangerous hippogriff might be best, as its low HD is offset by the cohort (leveled) HD.  So if you have a 7 HD cohort, your 3HD Hippogriff now has (almost) Griffon HD. (7 HD).  Also, if it matters a 7HD hippogiff is Huge, making it easier so scare small children or something.  Note that all three options mentioned here are faster than a flying wizard, and only one is slower than an air elemental (curiously, I might add...). For evil fighters, a Nightmare is also a possibility, but I find it inferior, lacking the sheer balls of the griffon, and the speed of the hippogriff/pegasus. For a Cohort the Hippogriff is best (lacking a LA for cohorts), being simple, while for purchase the Griffon seems to be the best bang.

In short, Spike may just have his next Fighter for a tolerant/sandbox GM. Also, I'd probably also spend 1 feat for the spirited charge and keep a lance as a backup weapon. A 200 foot charge for triple damage is a great finishing move... for one extra feat. (160 foot for the pouncing griffon... so triple damage lance strike plus a Full Attack+rake from the Griff?  Yeech, that could end a wizard right there if you won init... safe bet is the range-bow move. Yes, virginia, it is easy to outrange wizards. Thus wizards suck and are useless... I keed! :D   )



Hmm... what else? Got so caught up in the fact that  'mid range' game allows fighters a reasonable chance to just... outrange wizards (and the disparity only grows as the fighter's Attack Bonus outweighs the range penalties... tenth v. wizard is the first time that a fighter can really go all out at a distance with a reasonable chance to actually hit.


Obviously, a good defense here is full concealment (Invisibility, fog clouds), but fighters can get permanent vision shit too, so its less than total, and the wiz still has to get within charge range of the griffon/rider combo to really unleash his best spells.


Binding Wizards: Well, I think I showed that a binding wizard only starts coming into his own around level 11 or so (when he can more reliably break SR, rather than get his face eaten off half* the time), and relies on the DM giving pity-fucks to the wizard in regards to what a 'service' entails. Again, the problem is that flying mongol fighter doesn't give a fuck. He outruns and out ranges almost everything.  On griffon back his only major threat is things that outrun the 80 speed griff (air elementals by twenty, nightmares by 10... with a long enough lead those are not a terrible menace and the griff can outfight the nightmare. Dragons outfly the griff as well, but are harder to bring to the fight and arguably don't really outmatch the griff plus rider unless the GM is letting the wiz charm dragons much more powerful than himself.  So, pet boy wizard just dies a little slower (depending, of course, on the number of said pets...)

On comparative speeds: At a 20 speed difference (Griffon vs Air Elemental) it takes the air elemental four rounds of movement to almost close the gap (5 foot remains) of a single range band.  SInce we suggest a tenth level mongol archer should remain outside of medium range spells (200 feet) if not long range spells (800 feet)... a comfortably challenging 5 range bands, that's twenty rounds of shooting. To match the flying mongol you need another archer. Due to the mount/feat differential, the advantage will probably still be with the mongol. If the solution is to hire/charm another tenth level mongol archer NPC, then the PC mongol archer fighter is objectively better than the PC wizard (since he can just hire his own NPC mongol archer buddies as well....), since nothing the wizard can do really affects the fight at that point.


Hmm... I'm temporarily at a loss for good wizarding tactics... I've got griffon riding archers flying through my brain right now and I'm sort of limited to the one track...  Feel free to discuss, obviously, and even argue.

Ah: Scry and Die: Amulate of Proof v detection can help, but really it still has the wizard using his actions to arrive too close to a fighter and griffon for comfort and hoping they're surprised long enough for him to negate both.  Yes, yes... sleep etc. Mongol Archer spends twenty gold getting lead foil for his stables, whatevah.  I'm actually a bit underwhelmed by solo wizard scry and die attacks, given that his surprise round is 'bamf!'.  Admittedly it is a good and valid ambush tactic, but 'good and valid ambush tactics' do not always equal 'I win buttan'.







*Yes, in the fighter v. wizard mega thread I did the math for a spell pen conjurer with a high charisma. At ninth level he gets his face eaten by his first Bearded Devil almost exactly 50% of the time. Its something like 35% of the time within one day, rising to 50% the second day.  Binding Devils that can eat your face is not without risk... unless your DM is a soft hearted wussy who hand waves away unfun rules for the wizard in a pity-fuck.

Quote from: Spike;570922So, just for fun, we can posit a mounted archer on a fast flying mount [...]

I don't think D&D has ever really had much in the way of mounted combat rules, but this ought to be requiring frequent Ride checks and significant To Hit penalties.  Mounted archery is Hard.

Quote from: daniel_ream;570935Mounted archery is Hard.

No joke.  Have you seen how much training some of those Japanese guys go through with their Yumi just for horseback firing?  They do tons of training on a wooden horse long before they ever saddle a real one.  And even then some of the best ones still miss that 8"x8" square at point blank range.

Poor dumb Spike head: Couldn't leave without suggesting one of two core bows as possibilities

+2 bow of Distance (so.... 330 range increments, 990 feet to shoot at a whopping -6 penality, allowing him to rapid shoot while on the move and still kill wizards more than he misses)

Or Oathbow (+5 against designated target, various penalites for non-targets, otherwise +2 composite Longbow by default).

Designated wizard target gets much more hurted vs. longer ranged shooting by a metric fuckton (which is roughly twice as much as an ordinary fuckton, which is where we started at...).

A tenth level Elven Aerial Mongol fighter (heh) has ten feats to play with so:

Weapon focus, specialization greater focus Comp Longbows
Mounted Combat, Mounted archery
Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot
And either Animal Affinity (+2 ride), Iron Will (just in case) or, for the sheer unholy hell of it: Leadership, though spirited charge is still on the table as the ninth feat, and one more as the tenth.

Obviously high dexterity, followed by a decent CON, with wis and str more or less tied (or CHA if leadership, seriously yo. This borked concept relies on never (almost never?) being close enough to be mind blasted, much less the other kind of blasted.

So, even using shit-tastic elite array we're looking at a solid 20 Dex before magic items.  Bow is 18k, Griffon is either free (cohort) or about 5k for egg and training, 4k for gloves of dex and 5k for a 'what the hell' bracers of archery, lesser. that leaves about 17k for potions, ammo, mundane equipment, shit for the griffon (amulet of natural weapons +1 maybe, handysack (or quiver of elhonna, which isn't SRD core), maybe sweet talk a GM Into allowing 'talon-sheaths of speed' for the griffon's flight (ya never know..)

You'd figure this guy'd have arrows with adamantium heads, arrows with silver heads, arrows with cold iron heads, arrows that have been blessed or some shit... cheaper than full weapons, and combined with the bow's enchantment lets him cut through almost all DRs, and anything he CAN"T cut through? He can outrun, straight up.  Figure some str on the bow, and we're talking a guy shooting at +20, doing d8+6 dmg,  (note: With the Oathbow he can increase that to +23 and a d8+9 against his designated target....) which isn't terribly impressive, but he's doing it from the other side of town and up in the air.

I've never personally played around with archers before, though I've had low level archers I've DM'd for. One issue that crops up at tables is that DMs generally limit engagements, even in open terrain, to the size of the battlemat, meaning that with the composite longbow (for example), you'll never be outside one range band (and thus, never outside spell casting range), unless you have a fucking massive table.  Anything involving fast moving aerial combat will absolutely require expanded range squares, if only because the distances involved in just moving make a mockery of the normal sized mat...

Assuming flying mounted shooting his attack line looks a bit like this:  +16/+16/+11... before range band penalty. Manyshot is essentially useless to him as he'll almost never be reduced to a standard attack, or at least not enough to burn a feat for the extra arrow. Obviously a better than +2 bow will increase that, as will additional dexterity (since we went cheap).

Quote from: daniel_ream;570935I don't think D&D has ever really had much in the way of mounted combat rules, but this ought to be requiring frequent Ride checks and significant To Hit penalties.  Mounted archery is Hard.

With the Mounted archer feat you're rolling -2 for a moving mount, but can full attack at will, and -4 if the mount is 'running'. THere are no additional penalties for flying mounts that I could find in the SRD.  Without the feat the penalties are much more prohibitive (-4 and -8, so yes: hard).

THe combat ride check is 20 to fight from a non-combat mount, otherwise its DC 5 to guide your mount with your knees as a free action.

Melee guys do not get full attack options, but archers do. Wizards have a dc 10+spell level check to cast from a moving mount and a dc 15+level for running mounts to cast (concentration).

As with most things D&D, once you start getting to double digit levels the checks are more nuisance than anything else.

For example: A good elven mongol archer would have a Ride skill of 19 (or 21 with a feat), making it fully possible to fight from timid pony back all day long... at level 10.,

Quote from: Spike;570943For example: A good elven mongol archer would have a Ride skill of 19 (or 21 with a feat), making it fully possible to fight from timid pony back all day long... at level 10.,

This is where I simply check out of these discussions. Once we have flying mounts any attempt to analogize from historical sources just becomes pointless.  I can gas on all day about how riding a flying mount ought to be harder to ride/fight from, that Mongol/Parthian archers still weren't all that accurate, they just could fire from horseback at all, etc. etc. but it's all just Star Destroyer vs. Starship Enterprise at that point.

You do know you can't physically use a longbow when mounted, right?

You can use a composite longbow while mounted, which I assume is what Spike is using.  Though maybe not.  That'd be a pretty big 'oops'.  

The range issue assumes that you have 1000 feet of emptiness between you and the target.  Full cover is not hard to find (though it may mean going to ground), forcing you to get closer.  If it becomes a question of moving off and coming back, teleport and such is a superior option even to a fast winged mount.  

And a winged mount, of course, must maintain air speed velocity or crash into the ground.  While it might not be easy to freeze the mount (hold monster would work, but it's a matter of getting close enough.  Invisibility could certainly work - hold monster he'd need to be within 200 feet.  Combined with a silent image as a false target can easily get the Fighter close enough to the ground.  But even if you can't hold the mount, you could try to get another creature to initiate a grapple.  While it means both sides falling, it's worse for the creature that wasn't summoned for the sole purpose of dying in a grisly way.  

Depending on the DM's interpretation, summoning a celestial griffin might be the way to go - it charges and attacks.  Once they're engaged, can they fly?  If not, sucks to be the Fighter.  

And it should go without saying, but you have to be very careful with the weight limits of flying mounts.  The griffon can fly with a load of only 300 pounds.  I'm 6'1" and weigh around 250 pounds.  Put me in full plate and I'm not able to carry a bow (or anything else).  So, hope the character kept under a light load for the mount, or he's walking on the ground and unable to take to the air.

Quote from: Spike;570922Cohort mounts would suggest the fast and dangerous hippogriff might be best, as its low HD is offset by the cohort (leveled) HD. So if you have a 7 HD cohort, your 3HD Hippogriff now has (almost) Griffon HD. (7 HD). Also, if it matters a 7HD hippogiff is Huge

It is my understanding the companion/cohort critter explicitly do not gain size regardless of HD, which is for "monsters only"

I had the misfortune of playing with a 3E cheeze munchkin powergamer who would always push these half-assed rule interpretations (such as using companions as cover to avoid opportunity attacks, etc.).

One time he spent forever making a giant wolf companion for his optimized Druid before I looked up the rules that said animal companions don't get bigger with more HD.

So he made another, completely different PC after wasting our time making his druid.

He doesn't get to play with us anymore.

Quote from: Planet Algol;570968It is my understanding the companion/cohort critter explicitly do not gain size regardless of HD, which is for "monsters only"

I had the misfortune of playing with a 3E cheeze munchkin powergamer who would always push these half-assed rule interpretations (such as using companions as cover to avoid opportunity attacks, etc.).

One time he spent forever making a giant wolf companion for his optimized Druid before I looked up the rules that said animal companions don't get bigger with more HD.

So he made another, completely different PC after wasting our time making his druid.

He doesn't get to play with us anymore.

I've had to deal with that before.  They're trying to double dip by taking the size equivalent to the HD of the companion, then get the size mods for the larger size.  Mononoke strikes again.

I'm now imagining the Lone Ranger riding an elephant sized horse...

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570961You can use a composite longbow while mounted, which I assume is what Spike is using.  Though maybe not.  That'd be a pretty big 'oops'.

The SRD does indeed say you can us a composite longbow while mounted, but that's just ridiculous.  They have to be confusing "composite longbow" with "composite recurve bow" or something.

Quote from: daniel_ream;571039The SRD does indeed say you can us a composite longbow while mounted, but that's just ridiculous.  They have to be confusing "composite longbow" with "composite recurve bow" or something.

orly?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KwniO7e51Qs/T0HU8kyb5jI/AAAAAAAAAEs/bRxssQOIW2g/s1600/japanprintlg.jpg)

With one image I prove you entirely wrong on the topic of longbows (of any sort) on Horseback.

Further, the same concept is still quite possible with either a crossbow (120 foot base range vs 110 foot base range for heavy and heavy repeating crosbows) or even a comp short bow (only 70 foot base, but combined with the distance magic upgrade still pushes our base to 140, or slightly better than the non-distance c.longbow I started with...).

Quote from: Spike;571044orly?


With one image I prove you entirely wrong on the topic of longbows (of any sort) on Horseback.

Further, the same concept is still quite possible with either a crossbow (120 foot base range vs 110 foot base range for heavy and heavy repeating crosbows) or even a comp short bow (only 70 foot base, but combined with the distance magic upgrade still pushes our base to 140, or slightly better than the non-distance c.longbow I started with...).

Don't go posting your Anime trash here, Otaku!  There is obviously no way this could be used from a horse!

(http://goshycab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/10-longbow-apache.jpg)

Although.. that's probably a Cav unit.. CURSES I FOIL MYSELF!

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571048Don't go posting your Anime trash here, Otaku!  There is obviously no way this could be used from a horse!

(http://goshycab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/10-longbow-apache.jpg)

Although.. that's probably a Cav unit.. CURSES I FOIL MYSELF!

Foiling yourself is at least better than shitting yourself so it's a beginning right? I wonder why the wizard wouldn't go Shadowrun style and use her familiar like a "watcher" spirit for recon without using overt spells or hippogriffs? Just like that helicopter you show.

Quote from: Planet Algol;570968It is my understanding the companion/cohort critter explicitly do not gain size regardless of HD, which is for "monsters only"

.

I can't address the specifics of cohort mount rules directly, seeing that I'm roughly 5000 miles from my DMG and the SRD doesn't include any cohort rules at all.

However, as 7HD Huge hippogriffs quite explicitely exist in the wild (going by their MM entry which says 7-9HD hippogriffs are huge), I can still go get a huge hippogriff egg, raise it and have it trained as an ordinary flying mount and be exactly where I started from... which is a flying, horse eating, elphant of a hippogriff.

Or I can just stick with the 7HD and somewhat more dangerous, Giffon.

This is quite different from trying to grow an ordinary wolf or horse to huge size by raising its HD via cohort/companion rules in that horses do not grow to huge size as they gain HD (no progression to huge) and wolves do not grow to 7 HD in the wild (but can, in fact, be large... for whatever that's worth...).

Quote from: Spike;571044With one image I prove you entirely wrong on the topic of longbows (of any sort) on Horseback.

That's not a longbow, it's a daikyu.  The terminology matters.

Quote from: daniel_ream;570946This is where I simply check out of these discussions. Once we have flying mounts any attempt to analogize from historical sources just becomes pointless.  I can gas on all day about how riding a flying mount ought to be harder to ride/fight from, that Mongol/Parthian archers still weren't all that accurate, they just could fire from horseback at all, etc. etc. but it's all just Star Destroyer vs. Starship Enterprise at that point.

You do know you can't physically use a longbow when mounted, right?

I tend to agree with some 'experts' that ordinary people rarely raise to even 5th level, and your average 'mongol' or 'parthian' soldier would probably be a 1st or 2nd level 'warrior' rather than a high level fighter.

So lets look at a low level, mundane, example of a low level archer.

To even attempt to do mounted archery 'professionally' requires two feats (mounted combat and mounted archery), and to use longbows (a la the samurai, who did, in fact, use longbows. From horseback.) requires the martial weapon feat... mostly ignored since we're talking fighters here (but, for example, would make a mounted rogue archer weep).  In order to be a 'good' archer he'll want either weapon focus OR Point Blank Shot... and at 1st level he can't do both.

Now: While riding our 1st level chump is shooting at a penalty, as the mounted archery provides a -2 penalty that is higher than his +1 BaB. For a heroic archer he'll have, maybe, a good dex (16) going on, and might have a MW bow, meaning that he's now shooting at a +3, or a +1 at a full gallop. His normal targets will have sheilds and chainmail, so AC of 16 or so, meaning he hits on average once every four shots as he races towards the walls/formation or what have you.

So yes, by the rules it turns out it IS pretty hard to be a mounted archer in D&D. A bow specialist, using a magic bow at the legendary level of 10 (where his opponent can fucking fly for ten hours at a stretch and can more or less ignore mundane arrows), can actually be slightly dangerous.

Of course he's pumping out a 'massive' 3d8+18 damage where his melee... if he hits every shot, while his melee companion is probably dishing out that much per blow.

Quote from: daniel_ream;571060That's not a longbow, it's a daikyu.  The terminology matters.

Bullshit.  The longbow entry does not limit longbows to 'English yoeman yew longbows', and D&D catagorically tells us a Katana is a 'masterwork broadsword'.  Likewise, the daikyu (which pretty much fucking translates to long(great) bow) is called in D&D sources a 'japanese longbow'... and there is no entry for a daikyu in core 3X.

I'm guessing if I hunted down your semantically hair-split daikyu in 3x it would pretty much have the same range bands and characteristics of a long.fucking.bow.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;570961The range issue assumes that you have 1000 feet of emptiness between you and the target.  Full cover is not hard to find (though it may mean going to ground), forcing you to get closer.  If it becomes a question of moving off and coming back, teleport and such is a superior option even to a fast winged mount.  

In an open sky finding 1000+ feet of open space isn't hard. In fact, that is more or less the default setting of 'flying in the sky'.  The wizard who is hiding in cover at ground level to avoid the flying mount archer is in fact right back in the default position of the ground bound fighter vs flying wizard that started this entire debate: Useless.

Teleporting into range for most of your most lethal spells is addressed above: You are now well within reach of a charging, pouncing, raking griffin and a triple damage lance weilding fighter.

A charging griffin is doing 4d6+2d4+12 damage by itself.  A teleporting wizard is moving into range and then just... staying there for the rest of the turn, which means that, regardless of initiative the griffin/fighter goes before your next casting.  Teleporting to medium range is safer, but limits your spell options, and the fighter/griffin simply moves back out of medium range, possibly at a quadruple move, just to be safe.

QuoteAnd a winged mount, of course, must maintain air speed velocity or crash into the ground.  While it might not be easy to freeze the mount (hold monster would work, but it's a matter of getting close enough.  Invisibility could certainly work - hold monster he'd need to be within 200 feet.  Combined with a silent image as a false target can easily get the Fighter close enough to the ground.  But even if you can't hold the mount, you could try to get another creature to initiate a grapple.  While it means both sides falling, it's worse for the creature that wasn't summoned for the sole purpose of dying in a grisly way.

Silent image is no different than wind wall, possibly weaker. All purely defensive manuevers are limited in that the fighter can simply wait at 1000+ feet until the spell ends.

Summoning is a short range spell, so trying to summon a monster to grapple the griffon to death is extremely limited by the fact that the monster catagorically has to reach the griffon to be useful.

Using invisiblity to get close enough is a valid tactic, but you've got a limited range of usefulness (as obviously the fighter will have spent some of his excess wealth on magic vision), the griffon can smell you approaching (though not target you, true), and you are forced to chose between trying to neutralize one of two targets that can seriously fuck up your day.  It is possible that the griffin's will save is higher than the Fighters, and permanent resistance spells are well in budget, though that is a mitigation tactic, not immunity.

Note that I'm not claiming it can't work: Teleporting and Invisible Sneaking are both valid, if limited, tactics. What they don't do is give the wizard an autowin.

QuoteDepending on the DM's interpretation, summoning a celestial griffin might be the way to go - it charges and attacks.  Once they're engaged, can they fly?  If not, sucks to be the Fighter.  

Celestial Griffen starts 50 feet from the wizard and 850 feet from fighter. C.Griffen runs towards fighter at 160, fighter runs away at... 160 for ten rounds (and can still shoot at the wizard three times a round as he does, as 160 is less than the range band of his bow (165 or 330 with distance bow).

Also: D&D has a rich tradition of flying critters fighting each other. If flying creaters 'fighting' automatically fell out of the sky then that tradition wouldn't exist (and it would make an awesome method of bringing dragons to heel: I send my 1hd summoned/trained raven! Dragon falls for 10d6 damage and is now on the ground!  WOOT!)

Due to the large mount and reach, I doubt the griffins fighting would impair the archer, as he's technically out of reach. As the summoned griffin must fly to fight as well that limits its tactics.

This tactic is a fail tactic, as it wastes a spell that the fighter can just out wait (ten rounds, all of which are spent in movement).

QuoteAnd it should go without saying, but you have to be very careful with the weight limits of flying mounts.  The griffon can fly with a load of only 300 pounds.  I'm 6'1" and weigh around 250 pounds.  Put me in full plate and I'm not able to carry a bow (or anything else).  So, hope the character kept under a light load for the mount, or he's walking on the ground and unable to take to the air.

Why would mounted archer wear full plate? His entire shtick is staying out of reach (and he has a mother-fucking 22 dex in the absolute WORST case. This is a light armor fighter, and an elf ta boot!)

Seriously: lets assume a more reasonable 200lb fighter (top end. I work with a guy who is almost six feet tall and has arms like Arnold. He weighs 190.  mongol archer is not a fat fucker.). His fucking bow is the most important thing he owns, and he's got a hewards for fat lootz. Keeping under 300 lbs is EASY for 'terminator mongol elf archer'. Better: Its a core part of his entire MO!  

If you want to be RAW about it: Average weight for a human male is 160 lbs (120 + 2d10 x 2d4) or so.  Male Elf is closer to 110 (85+ 2d6x1d6).

Maximum rollable weight for a human male is 280, leaving twenty pounds for a bow and a haversack full of arrows. Maximum rollable weight for a male elf is...ah... 157.

Seriously: Why am I even addressing this? This is so far from an issue that its not even funny!

Quote from: Spike;571062Bullshit.  The longbow entry does not limit longbows to 'English yoeman yew longbows', and D&D catagorically tells us a Katana is a 'masterwork broadsword'.  Likewise, the daikyu (which pretty much fucking translates to long(great) bow) is called in D&D sources a 'japanese longbow'... and there is no entry for a daikyu in core 3X.

I'm guessing if I hunted down your semantically hair-split daikyu in 3x it would pretty much have the same range bands and characteristics of a long.fucking.bow.

You would be correct.  Dnd never likes to have a particular weapon be uncatagorically superior no pass go in ANY version. It's not politically correct and doesn't make for good game play for the more casual player. Like myself for example.

Quote from: Marleycat;571076You would be correct.  Dnd never likes to have a particular weapon be uncatagorically superior no pass go in ANY version. It's not politically correct and doesn't make for good game play for the more casual player. Like myself for example.

2e katanas excluded, I suppose.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;5710822e katanas excluded, I suppose.

Katana's everyone understands, even White Wolf girls.:D

At least as a DM you have a leg to stand on if you ban them straight up.

I had a katana once. I had to give it up after I threatened to cut a tank in half.  Fucking Fed, man... treat's 'em like nuclear weapons.

Quote from: Spike;571087I had a katana once. I had to give it up after I threatened to cut a tank in half.  Fucking Fed, man... treat's 'em like nuclear weapons.

There was an Orc character in a shadowrun game that had a dikote one that we mathematically demonstrated he could cut a panzer clean in half with (deal D damage to it after resistance)

Of course, that was the same game where the Wolf Shaman would toss off Hellblasts every action without taking drain, it was that kind of game.

My character was the Athlete.. the orc from the above example could throw me over a 4 story building and I could land on the other side without damage...  the wonders of modern cyberware.

But those Dikote Katanas...

Quote from: Spike;571075Seriously: Why am I even addressing this? This is so far from an issue that its not even funny!

DeadDM is in denial about being a fair bit tubby perhaps?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571091But those Dikote Katanas...

The stories I could tell!

Dikote was one of those game breaking additions to the game that no one wanted to admit was a problem.

I counted dikoted katana with dikoted forearm guards in one pvp incident. I found that shock gloves were a fun way to take the starch out of melee guys... or mages for that matter.

Then again: In those days I was the guy gleefully creating race specific death spells as a sideline gig.

Quote from: Spike;571095The stories I could tell!

Dikote was one of those game breaking additions to the game that no one wanted to admit was a problem.

I counted dikoted katana with dikoted forearm guards in one pvp incident. I found that shock gloves were a fun way to take the starch out of melee guys... or mages for that matter.

Then again: In those days I was the guy gleefully creating race specific death spells as a sideline gig.

(STR+4)S?  How could that be a problem?

7/5 Armor Jackets?  No issues.  How did we bake them in a plasma wash of diamond dust without destroying them?  Trade secrets, don't ask questions.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571099(STR+4)S?  How could that be a problem?

7/5 Armor Jackets?  No issues.  How did we bake them in a plasma wash of diamond dust without destroying them?  Trade secrets, don't ask questions.

Trade secrets my ass. Sounds like a GM pity
move....just sayin'. Thing is about Dumpshock and all the charop bullshit is that they all ignore the ACTUAL setting and meaning of dystopia much like alot of OWoD players forget about "horror".

On detecting teleporting wizards:

Obviously, a wizard's visibility or non-visibility is self evident (no 'hiding' at the scene, but invisibility spell is superior).

While I have yet to hear of official guidance for the relative loudness of an arriving teleport, the Listen skills puts an unarmored (wizard) person trying to be quiet at DC 10. That sounds more or less like the listen check to detect an invisible incoming wizard to me.  Casting silence on himself would work, insamuch as it negates listen checks, but it also pretty much announces that a silent wizard has just arrived when everything drops, and it actually constrains the wizard more than his target.  I'd rule that noticing that everything just went silent is a DC 5 if you're in the area of effect.

Best scry and die move is then to teleport within range of the target but not close (fifty feet?, making the listen a dc 15, and taking him out out of the silence bubble) while invisible, possibly while using stealth buffs (magic items or spells). Obviously pre-loaded, moderate and long duration buffs (minutes or hours) and one or two short (rounds) buffs can be pre-cast.

As a one on one assassination technique it is at its strongest... but counting on burning several spells before the fight even begins. Scry and Die as a party vs party (or party level monster) is much less overwhelming.  If the target isn't actually alone (Invisible stalker bodyguards, say), or the scrying spell missed something important (highly possible given the limits of scrying), then the wizard can be just as badly fucked as the target was supposed to be.

I can, for example, imagine the amusement value of a wizard teleporting in (invisible) to hit the 'unaware' target, completely oblivious to the fact that the target has some form of true seeing or arcane sight (or an invisible bodyguard with same) and a chime of interruption in his pocket.  Seeing the wizard (who just landed on his action), the target/secret bodyguard chimes, then closes to melee while the wizard is struggling to deal with the chime's effect.

While I would never, as a DM, have a scry and die wizard run into that type of situation their first time (or five) out the gate, eventually their reliance on that tactic will get around, and people who suspect they may be targetted will attempt to take steps. People adapt. Of course, attempting to S&D an enemy wizard is very very much a bad idea, as they are likely to know about the tactic, have taken steps already, have a lot of options (contingency, planar binding, etc) AND are likely to know they've been scry'd, thus are more likely to prepare a counter-ambush for that specific enemy wizard (ie: Faking vulnerability when they realize they are being actively scry'd...)

I never thought of teleport or D-door making noise but it's sensible.  But it's really a DM call as appropriate to the campaign/setting IMO. Interesting question nonetheless. And definitely a more subtle way to limit teleportation without doing the heavy handed 4e solution.

Quote from: Spike;571108While I would never, as a DM, have a scry and die wizard run into that type of situation their first time (or five) out the gate, eventually their reliance on that tactic will get around, and people who suspect they may be targetted will attempt to take steps. People adapt. Of course, attempting to S&D an enemy wizard is very very much a bad idea, as they are likely to know about the tactic, have taken steps already, have a lot of options (contingency, planar binding, etc) AND are likely to know they've been scry'd, thus are more likely to prepare a counter-ambush for that specific enemy wizard (ie: Faking vulnerability when they realize they are being actively scry'd...)

Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

"I would like to buy one lead mine please."

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571113Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

That does seem exactly like modern multi-arms military tactics? Say like helicopters and tanks like the US Army .....we won't count drones.:D

A wizard and fighter would NEVER EVER think of that? Especially the fighter right?  No way, all they can do is "swing" a sword.  The "denners" say so.  It must be true right? Oh wait if their rules lawyer wankery doesn't work they call it "magic tea party". Do I have it right now?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571113Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

:teehee:


Also: I've been shorting myself +2 to hit by counting the first range band. The worst range penalty is -18 (ten range bands). That's what I get for spit-balling in a rush.

In deference to the possibility of invisible teleporters, and the relatively bad manuverability of Griffons etc, and to keep the average use of RAW in mind for general tactics:  while scent and various magics (strangely, and in keeping with an ongoing theme, specific counter-magic effects are actually very hard to get in magic items. No potion of true seeing, for example, and more permanent effects tend to be outrageously expensive... but allowing for some sort of detection) allow the griffon to know generally where the wizard is within the limits of scent (not a targeting sense, ferex), the standard response to an invisible teleport is to immedeatly make a x4 non-combat move with a diviation to the right or left at random (barring any free action detection, such as listen checks or 'arcane sight' or smelling), which would put the griffon and rider 240 feet from where they started, and probably more than medium range from wizard.  If the wizard is detected (listen checks) then archery while running (rolling against concealment if necessary) will still occur.

Also: Potion of circle protection from Evil (protection from charm and dominate spells, among other things). I have noted MOST of the pvp denner wizards love them some demons and devils, which means evil casters (and thus, evil critter summoning rather than celestial critter summoning...). 750gp. Works for alternate fighter builds as well as mounted archery builds.

Quote from: Spike;570922One odd question that's been bugging me is what people would rule, if they were the DM, and a Fighter with, say, the Cape of the Mountebank or some other teleport effect to 'reach' a flying wizard (or other monster) and start a grapple.
 
Would you let him even try to grapple or would he just fall stupidly?
 
If you let him grapple, would the grappled pair fall to earth (Fast? or Slow?)
 
.

Cape of the Mountebank works as Dimension Door I believe, so per that your turn ends when it goes off (and even if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have an action left to grab after activating the item). Unfortunately. The Sun School monk tactical feat (Complete Warrior) could let you go it. If they could get around that and do an action I'd let them do the grab, then count the attacker's weight as encumberance to see if they fall, so probably.

Hmm...

I'm wondering what other mage type tactics are 'unbeatable' on the whitespace that I could be addressing.  I pretty much have to dismiss Mistborn's scorching ray wizard as duh-dumb.  Against a random melee fighter he'll do some harsh fire damage (minus and resistance and missed rays), but there is damn good chance that's ALL he'll get to do before he eats a two handed weapon to the face.  Five-foot step casting is all well and good, but the fighter is probably dishing most of what he's taking, and has a lot more HP to do it with.  At best its a toss-up. (also: Light armor dex fighters, esp. with the amazingly common rings of protection, can have a decent touch ac, and fire resistance is probably the single most common resistance out there... though it would be funny if he ran into a fighter with a shield of reflection. What's that? maximized scortching ray right back atcha? I'm sorry, did you just kill yourself? oops...)


Sorry, sidetracked by humorous image.

There are a few items I consider nigh on mandatory for high-mid fighters. Something adamantium (short sword if nothing else. Archers actually have it 'made' as adamantium arrows are 60gp for 50), silver, and cold iron, preferrably something good aligned (and on that topic, evil is actually sorta dumb as choices go.  There isn't a 'team evil'... demons and devils won't 'not attack you' because you happen to be evil too, while good aligned critters (Archons and shit) will attack evil characters for being evil... but are likely to avoid conflict with good characters in most cases.  Fact is: Nice guys can sweet talk good monsters into being buddies far easier than evil rat-fuckers can convince evil monsters not to eat their face.  

Naturally some sort of decent ranged weapon as a back-up, and by mid-high level it'll probably carry a cheap +1 enchantment (and in all probability will not have been bought but simply picked up as 'scrap loot' from a random horde.).  

In games I've played in resistance magic (Saves) are almost literally the first thing you buy, regardless of class.  The big book o' magic items has a vest of resistance (freeing up the cloak for something else), and core has the cloak and the permanent resistance spell (either or...) and for particularly rich campaigns, the luck stone as well.

Depending on teamwork, a fighter SHOULD HAVE some means of handling charm magics, energy based spells and mobility.  In a well made group, the spell casters will actually have their own plans to move fighters around (or rather the entire group. Fly is good, Mass Fly is better. Phantom Steed was a big hit in several games I played in...).

Let me sum up some of what I've discussed so far:

Backup weapons: Adamantium short sword (for those golems), silver dagger (For those hugging werebears), +1 shortbow, one or more weapons should be aligned, if not actually holy (that's a high game item, big money), possibly holy/cold iron.  A complete mix of arrows for the shortbow (Ad, silver, cold iron, blessed). Some back ups can be disregarded depending on the DM and the Party. A Cleric that loves to cast 'bless weapons' negates the cost of an aligned weapon, for example. If lycanthropes never show up, silver is mostly not needed.

A fighter should also have potions for emergencies, regardless of support. WBL is a cash starver for games, but even still:  Big healing potion for those tough fights when the cleric is busy, a potion of protection from evil for fights where there is mind control (and the cleric is busy? Seriously: what cleric avoids casting protection from X spells if they know what's what?), ditto energy resist and fly (if no more permanent effect).

I've seen haste gear quite a bit at the table. maybe its three or ten rounds per day, but if ya need the extra movement and attack its a life saver. Not sure I'd call it 'mandatory'.

Environmental stuff tends to be situational. A potion of water-breathing can be a life saver or utterly useless.  Gasseous form/ethereal potions can add tactical options.  

With enough wealth I'm a fan of anti-magic stuff. Rods of absorption can be held by anyone (and then passed back to the wizard as a magic battery!), though unless you've dug up King Tut's Treasure you're not gonna be buying them out of pocket (50k, violating the WBL of tenth level by itself! for a disposable item at that!). A chime of interruption is cheaper and lasts longer but is less absolute. one option is a ring of counterspelling, charged with a dispel magic by a friendly wizard, though the DM may nix that as cheese, in which case loading it with the more common mind control or neg-status spells (Hold person/monster, dominate person etc) may be required.

While not exactly a combat item, everyone knows you'll need a hewards handy haversack (or something similar), which means your 'back up weapons' can be full scale two handers (if that's yer bag).

Anyway, this post is taking too long, and not really being nearly as useful as I intended, so I'm gonna call it here. My next aborted attempt will be to go over the spells by level and identify the major 'game changers' and their major flaws in one line responses.  Anything with 'short range' is obviously going to be limited by that fact. No wizard should be actively trying to operate within easy melee range, and at low levels being massively outranged by 'one shot kill' weapons (heavy crossbow vs level 1 wizard...) is just mean spirited (note, however that at level 1, protection from arrows is godly... if that what the wizard does with half his spell list.  I'll note that the 'best' 1 level wizard I've GM'd for used 'long term' defensive buffs and carried a crossbow. By level five he was still using the crossbow for most of his damage but had added status effects to his spell list...)

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;571163Cape of the Mountebank works as Dimension Door I believe, so per that your turn ends when it goes off (and even if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have an action left to grab after activating the item). Unfortunately. The Sun School monk tactical feat (Complete Warrior) could let you go it. If they could get around that and do an action I'd let them do the grab, then count the attacker's weight as encumberance to see if they fall, so probably.

True enough. I've had GM's rule that speaking a command word is a free action (speech) rather than a standard action (activate magic item), but I think a hard, rule lawyer, look has to use the less exciting option.

In the older edition descriptions of Dimension Door I might have tried to argue that I could activate the spell and then use a move action to move through it the next action to get the same effect, but the current SRD text makes it functionally a teleport. Bamf rather than 'step through a doorway to X. Of course, that also means using it on a moving target...


....


Insane thought of the day, because we can:  large flying monster moving in straight line at predictable speed. DD ahead of and above monster so that your NEXT action occurs while you are essentially falling ON the monster.

Because i watch too many action movies to think otherwise.  

Sadly, Grappling big monsters in D&D is actually ANTI-cinematic. No heroic clambering all up on the Dragon of doom to stab him in the eye while he flies over Gotham... so sad...

You have to discover how Affect Normal Fires is über. Perhaps turning a raging bonfire trap into looking like mere crossable coals? Hand them an innocuous bushel that's secretly smoldering as they walk into the flour mill?

The thing about wizards is the number of options they could potentially use is virtually unlimited.  It's a little like chess.  While there are a number of clearly defined pieces, the way moves are combined with the situation make the game hard to visualize many moves in advance.  

Considering the maneuverability of the mount, there is a possibility of the wizard appearing directly ABOVE his target.  If the mount can't hover or ascend straight up, he's safe for a moment.  

If the wizard is invisible, the target may or may not have the means to see him.  If the wizard knows that he is, he might have to take other precautions, like mirror image.  If the target can't see invisible creatures, straight invisibility is the simplest option, by far.  Spells like silent image can lure the target to a designated point, wasting his target (and his mounts) attacks.

If the wizard is doing things right, he ends up in a position where he can get two or even three rounds of attacks in before the mount can move back into position (gaining altitude costs more movement than maintaining level flight).  Of course, the wizard might be subject to attacks from the arrows, so a spell that provides significant protection would also be helpful - but defensive spells wouldn't break the invisibility, so the wizard might go for a 'killing blow' without having the defenses up.  

A raven grappling a dragon (or a griffon) wouldn't work (since it's bonus is too low to initiate a grapple), but more evenly mattched creatures certainly could.  Summoning wouldn't break the invisibility, either.  

Ray of Enfeeblement and/orRay of Exhaustion might be a really useful spell at this point, especially if combined together.  The Ray of Enfeeblement deals 1d6+5 Strength damage.  Let's say it does 8 damage for the point of this discussion.  Instead of being able to carry 300 lbs., the mount is reduced to a carrying capacity of 99 lbs.  Considering we've just been talking about weight of the rider, this is probably enough to cause the mount to crash...  

Of course, this is still 'Mad Libs' with spells.  The specific tactics of the wizard will have been developed based on the spells that he has available.  A smart wizard (almost definitionally true) will have developed tactics that work with their available spells, and prepare spells that work well in combination with each other.  

Since MGuy made a Conjurer, and he has 5th-level spells, cloud kill is a real possibility.  If the opponent is on a hippogriff (3 HD) there is no save - instance death for the mount, and possibly 20d6 falling damage for the rider.  

If a griffon can be forced into a solid fog and cloudkill can be overlain such that the griffon is moving in the same direction as the fog, there's a chance of forcing it to remain in the cloud for 3+ rounds.  Even if the Con damage doesn't kill the mount or rider, it would make them more vulnerable to attacks that require a Fortitude Save.

Ideally, Mguy will be answering the speculation by running this fight three different times.

People keep forgetting that these battles typically don't occur in a vacuum.  That game wasn't designed that way anyway.  I.e., it was never intended for a wizard to blow his wad completely in every battle.

So if I were to come up with a plan to beat a wizard?  I'd throw a bunch of cannon fodder at him to get him to use up his spells.  A wizard has to have the right spells memorized anyway (and despite Denner claims, actual play does not mirror that very often where the MU has the perfect spells memorized for each scenario), so chances are that the Wizard will have spells memorized that are worthless to the scenario he faces.

So when you've spend your invisibility and cloudkill spells on my henchmen and followers, I'll carve you up later.

Actually, there is one thing no number of spells can do and that is meaningfully engage targets outside of a fairly limited range (200 feet for a level ten wizard, climbing to 300 (I believe) at level 20. A handful of direct combat spells like fireball (which more or less caps out at level 10 anyway) can swing 800 feet, but aren't the game changers most spells are held up to be.

I wouldn't but a 10th level character on a 3HD flying mount, which is why the hippogriff and pegasus were largely written out unless we went the cohort route (or 7HD huge hippogriffs were available) and stuck with the Griffon, which is comparable to the rider.

Having a wide open tool box is not a bad thing, but its isn't the ultimate thing (arguably, that's using what you DO have to its maximum potential).

To more directly address some of your points:

Cloudkill won't reach flying archer. Neither will rays (which are actually worse options due to the pathetic limits of range they have. Flying archer could, in fact, stay within a single range band (no penalty to hit) and STILL remain outside the combined reach of wizard flight and ray distance.  

Assuming clever tactics and movements to approach to medium spell distances (much easier, obviously) Cloudkill remains a nuisence for our griffon rider at best.


porting directly above does nothing.  No flying mount suggested can reasonably reach straight up, its true, though the archer can shoot. More importantly, however, is that the griffon archer won't actually try, he'll just electric bugaloo right the fuck back out of range, probably at a quad move (since he can still shoot, just at a -4 for running).

Mirror image is a delaying tactic, when the nature of the fight is that the fighter will eventually win. Shooting down mirror images or false flag illusionary targets costs him virtually nothing so long as he keeps the wizard out of reach.

So far the only viable spell mentioned (by me and you and pretty much everyone) is Invisibility, which is surprisingly hard for a fighter to beat by core rules (other than dust of appearance, which is massively limited by having to be right the fuck there.). However, See Invisible is a low level spell, so getting a custom made continuous magic item with that particular spell on it (The Eyepatch of See Invisibility) is more than do-able.  (as cast by a 3rd level caster (because I'm a cheap bitch) it would run 10k to have made, more or less (misc magic items do have some sort of -5 cost thing that baffled me going in...).

Why? Because not being able to see invisible monsters and wizards, when you are an archer, is a massive gimp, and just because the designers failed to account for non-caster invis beating doesn't mean I have to suck it up.
:p

Quote from: Spike;571062Bullshit.  The longbow entry does not limit longbows to 'English yoeman yew longbows', and D&D catagorically tells us a Katana is a 'masterwork broadsword'.

All that demonstrates is that D&D is just being stupidly sloppy with its terms.  Again, yet another reason why analogizing from history is pointless in this game.

Why would I try to work from history when we're talking about a game with invisible flying wizards that bend reality?

For that matter, even if we kept to a strict english yoeman Longbow (instead of just a bow of exceptional length vs bows of ordinary length split), what proof (or for that matter, anecdotal evidence) do you offer that it was, in fact, impossible to use from horseback?

Just because yoeman didn't isn't actually proof.

By all means, learn me sumfin.

Quote from: Spike;571229Why would I try to work from history when we're talking about a game with invisible flying wizards that bend reality?

For that matter, even if we kept to a strict english yoeman Longbow (instead of just a bow of exceptional length vs bows of ordinary length split), what proof (or for that matter, anecdotal evidence) do you offer that it was, in fact, impossible to use from horseback?

Just because yoeman didn't isn't actually proof.

By all means, learn me sumfin.

It would be very difficult to use one because the grip is in the center.  You'd want something like a Yumi, which is made for horseback shooting, and is almost identical to the longbow in terms of range and penetration.

I'm trying to get a grasp on why the grip being in the center would make it hard to use... no, strike that... IMPOSSIBLE to use from horseback.

A man sitting on a horse is farther from the ground than a man on foot, so I know it ain't that trailing edge digging in the dirt.

Quote from: Spike;570922One odd question that's been bugging me is what people would rule, if they were the DM, and a Fighter with, say, the Cape of the Mountebank or some other teleport effect to 'reach' a flying wizard (or other monster) and start a grapple.

Would you let him even try to grapple or would he just fall stupidly?

If you let him grapple, would the grappled pair fall to earth (Fast? or Slow?)

Me? I'd let the fighter guy try it. Fail the grapple and yer fucked, sure.

I've only got enough time to answer these before I have to go to work again. (If someone wants to give me a winning lottery ticket so that I can do this full time, I'd appreciate it.)

I would let the fighter attempt a grapple. If the wizard failed his concentration check and it is a spell that is keeping him flying, the pair would start to fall to the ground fast. Depending on what the wizard is using to fly, they may start to slowly drift to the ground.

Quote from: Spike;571241I'm trying to get a grasp on why the grip being in the center would make it hard to use... no, strike that... IMPOSSIBLE to use from horseback.

A man sitting on a horse is farther from the ground than a man on foot, so I know it ain't that trailing edge digging in the dirt.

Because when you're shooting a bow from horseback, you're pivoting your body to follow the target.  Having 1/2 of the bow's length below your arm makes it hard to pivot because it's constantly hitting the horse.  You'd have to shoot it sideways, and that's a lot less accurate.  There's a reason why the yumi looks like it does.

*Edit*  Here's a picture.  If that were a long bow drawn back at full draw, the bottom of the bow would be so low that it and the string would be hitting or rubbing the side of the horse.  Way too awkward to use effectively.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LWU3ba5txco/Td0e2kOoE1I/AAAAAAAAA4o/G-U9GyDG_Qk/s400/Yumi.jpg)

I know this is slightly out of school but:

Having looked at the magic item creation chart a few more times I have found the near (but not quite) ultimate fighter solution to bad-touch wizards:

For a mere 100,000 gold, you can have an unlimited use rod of absorption. That's right: For the mere cost of two rods of absorption, you can have 1 rod that works forever.  Say goodbye to every having to suck up a spell or spell-like ability that targets you directly. For bonus points, your wizarding buddies will suck your dick for the chance to blow off some of that energy to power their own minor, but necessary, utility buffs and high end whomp-em blasts...


There is a really awesome innuendo I should totally be polishing in there somewhere, but I'm too busy drooling over my rod....


For 300 gp more you can use it as a weapon, meaning it should almost always be ready to hand for those long hard fights against men in dresses...

Hmm.... yes... I see.  Its a matter of facing, which D&D waives away, regardless. Presumably anyone to your left would be shot just fine (meaning you'd actually angle to the right of your targets rather than coming straight at them, a level of granularity that D&D doesn't really want to mess with...

Thank you. That was informative.

Quote from: Spike;571250Hmm.... yes... I see.  Its a matter of facing, which D&D waives away, regardless. Presumably anyone to your left would be shot just fine (meaning you'd actually angle to the right of your targets rather than coming straight at them, a level of granularity that D&D doesn't really want to mess with...

Thank you. That was informative.

Ultimately your point still stands, because there are bows just as effective as a long bow that are fired from horseback.

Of course. And Crossbows that actually have more range as well. Bows are, from a rules standpoint, slightly simpler and more effective for a fighter, which is why I went the way I did. Tellin' a dude ya gonna shoot him once a round is a wee bit less intimidatin' at tenth...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;571247There's a reason why the yumi looks like it does.

There's actually some historical evidence that the daikyu existed in its current form for some time before being used extensively in mounted archery - that is, the design of the daikyu may not have anything to do with being used from horseback.

And just because I feel like annoying Spike some more: mounted archery (most military archery, really) was traditionally used against formations, not individual targets.  When the Romans are conveniently packed together like sardinii, you don't have to hit any one of them in particular.  I'm skeptical that a moving mounted archer could hit an individual man-sized target with any consistency.  (EDIT: at any range that matters, like outside of charging distance for pissed-off infantry).

Quote from: Spike;571253Of course. And Crossbows that actually have more range as well. .

Stupid RPGs, screwing that up.  Crossbows have much less range than bows.  The only reason they took over was because you could train a soldier to use a crossbow in 10 minutes, as opposed to 10 years for an English longbow.

Quote from: daniel_ream;571256There's actually some historical evidence that the daikyu existed in its current form for some time before being used extensively in mounted archery - that is, the design of the daikyu may not have anything to do with being used from horseback..

Well yeah, because the bow was significantly longer than a person was tall, so you couldn't really have the grip in the middle without risking the bottom getting in the way.  But because the bottom is so short compared to the top, it works for horseback archery which was a big part of the bow's history.  Just like the Mongols (who also used shorter bows).  The English longbow, OTOH, isn't really built for horseback use.  That's what I was getting at.

Quote from: Spike;571249I know this is slightly out of school but:

Having looked at the magic item creation chart a few more times I have found the near (but not quite) ultimate fighter solution to bad-touch wizards:

For a mere 100,000 gold, you can have an unlimited use rod of absorption. That's right: For the mere cost of two rods of absorption, you can have 1 rod that works forever.  Say goodbye to every having to suck up a spell or spell-like ability that targets you directly. For bonus points, your wizarding buddies will suck your dick for the chance to blow off some of that energy to power their own minor, but necessary, utility buffs and high end whomp-em blasts...


There is a really awesome innuendo I should totally be polishing in there somewhere, but I'm too busy drooling over my rod....


For 300 gp more you can use it as a weapon, meaning it should almost always be ready to hand for those long hard fights against men in dresses...

But THE IDIOT FIGHTER STILL NEEDS A REALITY BENDING SUPER GENIUS TO MAKE ONE!

Quote from: Planet Algol;571273But THE IDIOT FIGHTER STILL NEEDS A REALITY BENDING SUPER GENIUS TO MAKE ONE!

NOT TRUE!  You can just have any old cleric make it up too, and because they're so wise they'll know EXACTLY what its for and probably chuckle all the way to the forge to help you make it.

The item creation rules are pretty good, but there are some items that would have alternate pricing.

Some people think that continuously active true strike costs 2,000 gp (spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 2,000 gp).  Those people are idiots.

If the item were to be available (which it probably should never be) it would have to be priced as a +20 attack bonus; the most reasonable is (20 squared x 1000 gp = 400,000 gp).  That's less than a bonus that provides both Attack and Damage and such an item would probably be epic.

Protection From Evil is another such spell that causes problems.  The best way to price it out is by effect, not just by spell level.  

The Rod of Absorption is tricky.  The 50 stored spell levels is not directly equivalent of '50 charges'.  But I suppose you could make that argument.  It really becomes a question of game impact and whether it's more trouble than it's worth.

Moving back to actual fighter vs wizard tactics we can discuss the little used injury rules.

One assumption I've seen in the recent debates is that the wizard will somehow be actively hunting the potentially unaware fighter instead of vice versa (seen in the Panzerkraken vs MGuy thread as near as I can tell. MGuy showed up on the battlefield first, cast (before losing init) etc. PK has had to roll a spot check to see a flying mounted wizard (large object) in open sky but... and I could be mistaken, MGuy never rolled to spot PK's arrival. Working then from the assumption that MGuy was looking for PK's fighter.).

Let us say instead that Mongol Archer Elf considers all of the sky above Islandia to be his personal Turf, so when his peon villagers report back that a wizard was seen flying along over Islandia, he sets out on Griffon-back to hunt the bastard down and Make HIM PAY!

When, at last, he sees the wizard (from way way up in the sky a mile away) he readies his bow of distance, drops to 1000 feet distance so that he's travelling in the same general direction and speed of said wizard (so they'll maintain this distance indefinitely).

If the wiz seems oblivious (hey, 1000 feet and no spot skill? Its possible), he'll take his surprise round shooting, and in all likelihood hitting all three shots.

Surprise round over (or never happened because he was spotted) and probably having the initiative (Remember sample guy has +6 dex bonus and with two 'spare' feats, one is easily improved initiative (which he's got good reason to take! So I'll update sample guy to include it later...), giving him a likely advantage of +10 on the check!

Naturally the Wizard, seeing a violently hostile savage elf archer on griffon back will want to cast a spell. ANY Spell (teleport, invisibility, mirror image. Anything!).

But Mongol Archer, suspecting that this won't be a two second kill, and ready for the long fight, has readied his action rather than firing right away. When the Wizard begins to cast, the archer lets fly!

Now, he's losing his full attack option (but if he has Many-shot he could, in fact, use that (standard attack feat), so we'll be re-looking at that feat for a higher level (though we COULD take it now, I don't really want to commit to it yet).

Chances are he hits, since his attack gained a boost of +2 for not rapid-shooting, and his odds are pretty fucking good as it is.  So, barring a 1 he hits average wizard dude, doing an average of... 10 points of damage and forcing a concentration check with an absolute minimum threshold of 26... for a first level spell. Assume a third level spell (sweet spot for spell casting really...) and we're looking at at 28.

Concentration is Con Skill, so we'll assume a +2 stat bonus for the moment. Right there we're looking at a starting concentration of 15, giving us a 65% chance to disrupt the spell from an average hit. A more powerful hit, (50% possibility) or a more powerful spell (probable) gives us a 'likely' chance of disruption closer to 75%.

Here using the Oathbow would be better (and assuming a mere +2 strength bonus/bow mix), as it pushes our average damage up by 3 (and thus Conc check success down by 15%).

Of course many smarter wizards will have, oh, combat casting or a amulet of health, so we can push the damage concentration check a bit harder up. Here splurging for a better bow OR adding some form of damage booster to the arrows (wounding arrows? Four hits, -4 con, we're talking an extra 20 points of virtual damage AND -2 to concentration checks...8k gold for 50 wounding arrows... Bane:Human arrows are cheaper but more limited (what if our wizard is an elf?)

Counting variables, we're looking at a likely, but hardly garanteed spell failure from damage.  If so, our plucky archer readies another arrow to wait (Multi-shot here DRASTICALLY alters the equation, turning likely spell failure to virtually garanteed, with two hits for one attack check (if I read it right) at a measly -4.  Since we don't have it yet, when it comes online at level 11 (since we're not exactly needing anything else until greater spec at 12...) we'll actually be firing THREE arrows as a standard action for disruption (or, hell, just for the fun of it!)

As long as he keeps Random wizard pinned with disruption, he's winning. Once the wizard gets even a single spell off, the fight potentially alters.

however: Note that every single spell that is disrupted is LOST, as if it had been cast, greatly narrowing the options the wizard has. I can't stress this enough for any fighter attempting to fight a wizard: Get Initiative, use readied actions to disrupt, and only go 'full attack' once you're sure you can finish the job.  How many 'teleports' or 'invisiblilities' does the average wizard memorize for one day? how many 'dominate person' or 'hold monster' does he have to call on?

Simple fact is, any given wizard will be able to perform his chosen super-combo only once or twice a day. Wreck that and his ability to keep the fight going shrinks rapidly. Archer boy has an advantage in that he can disrupt at range, limiting wizards avoidance options.  Melee fighter has an advantage in hitting much harder, making concentration checks... much harder.


Now: once the wizard gets a spell off, as noted, the fight changes. If the wizard does something silly like a fireball, then the fighter keeps up his disruption tactic, relying on high HP and saves... though at 1000 feet distance (or 985 to avoid an extra range band penalty for our super-max distance bow style) he is actually out of reach. We won't assume the wiz will try something that foolish (though a Summons is a real possibility. Summons will be ignored in favor of disruption for the...oh... 7-8 rounds (minimum) it will take the summoned creature to get to the fight.  remember, right now we're flying away from the wizard at sixty (give or take wizard's choices.), which has to be subtracted from teh movement of the summoned creature's forward progress. Of course, if the wiz slows down and the summoned creature does non-combat moves, that will shorten the lead time... but for the moment: DIsruption.

Now, lets assume that the second or third 'save my bacon while I think' spell goes off instead.  Teleport?  If its 'out of Islandia', the Fighter chalks up a conditional Win. Lets assume that the wizard has a damn good reason to be flying over Islandia and has no intention of letting some bitch ass muggle fuck up his plans. Griffon moves away from new wizard location as fast as possible, probably moving to somewhere around 300 feet away, or at least outside medium spell range. Archer prepares another disruption attack. (ready action instead of full attack) at the still visible wizard.

Mirror Image? Archer switches back to full attack and hopefully clears three images a round while keeping distance (and waiting for next action. Note that cheap, ordinary arrows are preferred for this.

Invisibility? Well, the Eyepatch of See Invisiblity can come into play here. Barring that, we're trying to 'find' the wizard and shoot blindly at him as we keep away... including scent ability.  

Assuming summoning from invisibility, we outrun the summoned monsters until they go home (easy).

Assuming followed by an aggressive positioning teleport: Use listen and scent to pick target location and exeunt with due haste as for regular teleport, combined with full attacks at believed location of wizard using regular arrows.  Continue moving 'away' from teleported invisible wizard at best ability while shooting at believed location with cheap arrows until invisiblity wears off (ten minutes if we don't accidentally kill him first... or he launches a fireball...whatever).

However:Eyepatch of See Invisible really is the best "cheap" Solution to this problem.

What else?  Force bubble on himself? Some sort of large scale illusionary concealment?

Given that the griff can fly around comfortably out of reach longer than most (all?) spells last, and assuming the wizard is too proud/determined to flee islandia (or, disrupted his emergency teleport escape?... mongol archer wants his faaking gold, mang! and will chase him down under ordinary circumstances)... I'm missing a sure fire win for the out-ranged and disrupted wizard.

Which leaves, what?  better summoning by magic item? Archer flys and shoots better summons to death and goes back to mage hunting.  Hide and hope? Polymorph self into butterfly and sneak past?

Landing and trudging along at ground level is a weak solution. Archer stays 1000 feet up, circling and firing down upon ye, concealment or no, and it really doesn't address the range issue.

Hrmm... Stoneskin (I've proven that's an all day buff at ten): Adamantium arrows, 60gp for 50. Alternatively: Regular cheap arrows until 100 damage has been absorbed (three, four rounds of full attacks.)

Spells like stoneskin or windwall that shut down damage for a few rounds actually work somewhat better than invisibility at buying the wiz time to do other things.  The question remains: What Other Things.

There are two issues that need to be addressed: continuing damage from archery and closing the gap long enough to do something about it.

I DO see a possibility with quickened spells combined with a teleport (assuming, as always, that the teleport wasn't disrupted right off the bat (give it good odds that the wizard will use either teleport, confident of his one shot win spells, or Invisibility for his first spell. If one is disrupted the second one is still top of the charts for the second spell of choice. A pairing of invis and greater invis in one list means that three successful disruptions in a row might just end the fight (and also: averaging 30+ points of damage to a faaking wizard (and potentially -3 Con damage (so at least another 10 HP lost to con damage..., maybe 20 depending on the wiz).

Of course, some wizards would prefer to explore other, less important options while they set up their death dominoes. Windwall (IF memorized. Seriously: Who has this shit?) gives him several rounds to go invisible, lay on any short term buffs he wants and teleport. Combining teleport with quickened spells and summoned monsters provides high bang for buck over the short term, since you can bring others on the Teleporting.

So, the strong counter is a quickened spell that can be a game ender, though at level ten we're looking at a... level 1 spell? Yeesh: that's a fucker you can rely on! combined with close in summoning, invisibility and teleporting 'on top' of the archer with summoned gribblies (more summonses means less time with the gang bang squad, but then I haven't seen seven or eight summon spells in one list so its a trivial option. Assume high end summons we're looking at: fiendish griffon? (Summon V), maybe a d3 fiendish wasps? plus an additional summon IV flying critter (Fiendish giant eagle?).

At this point a 'full withdraw' is an option, as is just taking the AoO's to charge the now very close wizard and polish his ass off (dropping a wizard right on top of a griffon is just... dangerous. Of course, if he DOES have stoneskin on from the start (or added during his protected buff period), then the griff is decidedly less scary, but he's gonna strip the shit out of that stoneskin. Idea: Adamantium claw sheaths? nah, archer guy probably wouldn't bother unless really fast flying golems were a major problem. Or his own divination buddy told him to expect unexpected company. And use adamantium, but thats a low probability.


Now: I think I've worked out likely permutations for a well prepared wizard, so lets go to the white board of action.

Hunting Fighter swoops out of sky 1000 feet away from Wizard. Wizard needs to make a Spot Check at a penalty of -100 (-1 for every ten feet of distance) or he's proper fucked.  How does he find the wizard (since Fighter presumably has to make the same fucking check? He has the griffon track the wizard's scent until they are, oh, 100 feet away (-10 spot check, which the griffon's own spot negates. Taking ten, then backing off. Presumably this sort of long range hunting activity is common, so creating spot bonuses for the griff (or spending cross class skills like mad  on teh fighter and burning our ten feat on alertness (marginal, even with the elf bonus and possible wis bonus, we're looking at a 15 or so vs a free 10 that, in theory, can be boosted via magic (potions of owls wisdom on the griffon?). to be safe we'll try to spot from 150 feet out (really, since we're trailing, we'd start from something like 200 out (-20,+10, so DC 20? 15?) and work our way in until found... wizard's spot check is more like 2 or 3 in all probability, so distinct advantage here.

This, of course, presumes that the DM makes us roll to 'spot' the wizard we ALREADY know is flying over our tuff of Islandia, and whose scent trail we can follow.   Given 'prior knowledge' I think its a fair call to say we just find him at some extreme range (maybe less than 1000, but more than 2-300, or well out of wizard spot check), and with readied action we move to 1000 feet to engage, gaining surprise 95% of the time.

Rapid shooting gives us three shots (we're technically at 980 feet, for -4 for range, -2 for flying movement, but our aggregate plus is 20 so shots one and two hit at +14, shot three at +9. Wizard AC defaults to 14 (mage armor), but might go as high as 18 (Lord Mistborn's super-dex wizard... who is flat footed at the moment, but we'll ballpark it to account for other odd AC enhancements the wizard might have).  Either way the first two shots are near gauranteed and the third is highly probable. Three hits, 3d8+18 total damage. Assuming no extended duration (level 5) Stoneskin, that means we're looking at.. 31 points of damage plus -3 con from wounding arrows (for an additional -10 hp). Wizard just took 41 hp on the surprise round from our exceptionally cautious mongol elf.

Roll initiative. Mongol has +10 to his checks. High dex wizard has +4, but he's the exception to the rule. Call it a +8 advantage for Mongol. Mongol wins initiative... ah... 70% of the time? (even odds is 50. +8 works out to 40%... of the remaining 50%. Sound right?).  

Archer then holds Ready Action. Wizard (best case) casts wind-wall or Stoneskin. Archer fires (now at +16 to hit, so 95% hit chance), doing average ten points, plus another con. Wizard has taken total of 61 hp damage, and has a 28 concentration check (at -4 con...), Again, using the exception of Mistborn (18 Con), and adding something like skill focus (+3  we're looking at, post con damage, 18 Conc? Impressive, though I've never seen SF taken for concentration by a wizard, so far. Anyway: That means even odds to save the spell.  

Note: If the wiz fails he's gonna take another 10+1 con next round (71 damage), which is really conservative of the figher. Note that had the fighter just taken his initiative to full attack again (conceding the spell casting we'd be looking at a total of 91 points of damage to a tenth level wizard, which means that he is utterly, absolutely balled out. Even with an improbably 18 con starting point AND 10 maxed out HP rolls, he just hit -11 hp.  This is a highly probable success (four shots at 95% hit chance, 2 shots at..um... 80% or so (or, with high dex wizard: one at 80% and one at 55%?, with 6 5% chances for a nasty crit (doing an additional 21 points of damage over...low margin of success, but (violating pure math for ease of calculations) making it about 30% probable to happen once.  We can then pro-rate all damage based on hit percentages (to include crit probability. For ease of calculation 95% with a 5% crit (at 10 and 21 average damages) will even out to 100% because I'm fucking lazy. So five 95% equal 5 con loss and 52 damage (since the actual average is 10.5). Six is 6 points of damage once crit probability is factored in, with a half a con point lost. Total damage is 58 pure HP, and 20 or 30 points lost to con damage... rounded to 25, in utter violation of how the rules actually work. Wizard takes 83 points of pure average damage in all mathematically probable senarios and is, once again, wiped the fuck out.

But, we'll let him make that Concentration check anyway.  Lets say he had 10 points of virtual health from Necromantic vigor (or whatever), so he's got 7 hp left (or 12/2 depending on swing of that sixth point of con loss...

Uber wizard now has Wind Wall up, utterly negating all archery for ten rounds. Wind Wall is 50 feet tall and, in this case, a nice arc in front of him. Technically our Archer could climb over a round or two to get a direct line of fire over the wall, but we'll assume he's spell foolish and doesn't know he can do that.

So, round 1, 2 and 3 see our wizard draining the fuck out of healing potions, taking him back to his statistically improbable 80hp (the magic bonus HP is, of course, gone), with his con damage, however, its only 55 (impossibly averaged) HP. Round 4 he casts Stone Skin, round five he casts invisiblilty, round 6 he summons d3 critters, round 7 he summons d3 more weaker critters (so, statistically he's got three critters suitable to summon IV and III... we'll be kind once again and give him two fiendish wasp and one fiendish dire bat.  On round 8 he teleports the mess right on top of the waiting archer (who has been flying a lazy 1000(980) foot radius circle around the wind wall for seven rounds (having covered only 1140 feet, covering an arc of approximately 67 degrees...). Mongol uses eye patch of see invisible and delayed action to shoot wizard in face on same initiative count for 3 more con damage, 30 points off stone skin and 1 point of averaged penetrating damage. Wizard is now down to 30 maximum HP, with 29 actual. Archer scratches head, puzzled at tough wizard. Griffon executes full withdraw action. Random critters charge after... or rather double move and fail to keep up (if we allow fiendish griffins instead of celestial, or the wizard is not evil and can summon celestial critters, then one attack against the griffon per Celestial giant eagles (hitting 60% of the time on the charge. DM's harsh ruling is that 'full withdraw actions' prevent ride check to 'negate' one hit. Bummer dude.

Archer readies action (combat is occuring at 10 foot reach griffon distances) and attempts disruption shot against wizard on next round. Stoneskin will take the 10, with one statistically averaged additonal damage and one con point for 5 impossibly averaged loss (so 23/25 hp wizard) Griffon continues 160 foot full withdraw, pursued by statistically insignificant giant eagles (16 points done out of 75).  Wizard flys sixty, putting total engagement distance at... 260 feet, or outside of medium spell range.  Frustrated wizard casts fireball, hitting griffon and rider for 35 points of average fire damage and a saving throw of (adding evocation feat for maximum potential...) 21? Sure.

Archer has reflex save of 8 (3+4+resist 1), so he saves only 35%. Griffon has same save (permanent resist spell on mount, duh). both take 23 points (griffon is down 29 out of 75, archer is annoyed and down 23 out of arbitary amount (say 75 to be simple. Yes, super wizard had more HP than archer fighter...).

Next init, griffon full withdraws again, takes another 16 from charging eagles for 45 out of 75, and archer says fuck the wizard and full attacks him for 1 statistical point and another 15 points of con dmg loss, and knocking off an additional 30 points of stoneskin (seventy then).  Total distance between wizard and archer is now 360 feet.  Wizard has burned overland flight, stoneskin windwall, fireball, summon V and Summon IV and a teleport. In a sane world, he's dead three or four times over, but this is the perfect wizard, so he's trucking on with 7/10 HP (and how much con dmg???)

Next round wizard dies to 3 more con loss plus 2 more hp loss. His Stoneskin is gone either way. Griffon mauls one eagle and takes statistically negligable damage from the surviving summoned eagle (one hit which is Ride checked to oblivion and a 25% possible bite for d6+1 (1 point on average?).

That was a perfect wizard vs statistic conservative no-spike damage fighter. Fight drags on because wizard wins 50% average conc checks and fighter wants to be cute with disrupting shots.

Fighter fired 14 arrows of wounding (too lazy to doublecheck..), costing him 2240 GP for the arrows.  Wizard burned 3 big potions of healing (2250?), leaving him 46k WBL loot to, well, loot.  

This has NOT been an accurate representation of play, but it is illustrative of several iterations of the same actions with these given odds. Technically, the wizard might have avoided one or two points of con damage from averaged losses on third hits, but given that only once did our hero fire at the most punishing range band... so even removing one con damage hit, the fighter sill puts the wizard down, statistically, at this same time. Without the eyepatch of seeing invisible, Griffon takes three crap ass AoO's and full runs (four move) away from wizard. Fighter fires at 'center' of summon monster arrival point (due to teleport) and loses hits to concealment. Griffon continues full run for the 7 or so rounds until invisible wears off, easily avoiding all damage from summons as they can not attack. Fireball negates invisible, and the wizard gets one, maybe two good shots at it before the archer peppers him from 980 feet again (two range bands out and beyond fireballing).

A Rod:Metamagic, Quicken (35k gp for a lesser (1-3 level spells) might work. However, oddly its a standard action to activate the rod. Presumably he can use it behind the wind wall to prime a spell that he'll use later. Maybe quicken teleport? Standard action on round 7 to prime it, on 8 he jumps in with a swift action teleport and may then cast his 'game breaking' dominate person spell or hold or what have you.

However: I still believe that a readied action arrow to the face can trigger the concentration check even still.  While statistically negligable (1 point after stone skin (half a point), a spike damage possibility can trigger a real concentration check. Note that by this point the wizard is suffering from -7 or 8 con damage, and we're assuming a level five game breaker spell. this provides a tiny chance for our perfect wizard (with his 18 starting con...) to get his spell off (1 damage means he's rolling 13 vs 21? max damage means 13 v 24. Crit, aside from more or less ending ending wizard will do statistically probably 11 points after stoneskin for a 13 v 31 match-up.


So yes, provided wizard is bad ass enough (and fighter is too smart for his own good), a quicken rod can alter the dynamics of the fight. The counter to the summon bomb and mind control game changer is a potion of circle of protection used during the wind-wall. A clever ray spell remains possible, however.

I thought the Native Americans of the plains were pretty stellar in their horse archery. It was bareback, too. But someone else will have to fill in the details.

Quote from: Opaopajr;571663I thought the Native Americans of the plains were pretty stellar in their horse archery. It was bareback, too. But someone else will have to fill in the details.

One thing to remember is that mounted archery, for all cultures, was done at very close range compared to an archer on foot.  They weren't riding around 200 yards out and lobbing arrows.  Only the heavy mounted archers used volleys, and only then when they were in formation standing still before charging in.

I will once again refer you to my earlier comment about 'typical' archers (mounted or not) vs tenth level heroic class archers.

Also, 'Real' mounted archers didn't have to worry about a guy who could steal their souls from 200 feet. They had to worry about guys who could stabbitty stab them at ten feet.

Big Difference.


Remember: Gandalf was fifth level.

Also: Thomas Edison was a Wizard.

Because its funny.