Quote from: Spike;571108While I would never, as a DM, have a scry and die wizard run into that type of situation their first time (or five) out the gate, eventually their reliance on that tactic will get around, and people who suspect they may be targetted will attempt to take steps. People adapt. Of course, attempting to S&D an enemy wizard is very very much a bad idea, as they are likely to know about the tactic, have taken steps already, have a lot of options (contingency, planar binding, etc) AND are likely to know they've been scry'd, thus are more likely to prepare a counter-ambush for that specific enemy wizard (ie: Faking vulnerability when they realize they are being actively scry'd...)

Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

"I would like to buy one lead mine please."

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571113Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

That does seem exactly like modern multi-arms military tactics? Say like helicopters and tanks like the US Army .....we won't count drones.

A wizard and fighter would NEVER EVER think of that? Especially the fighter right?  No way, all they can do is "swing" a sword.  The "denners" say so.  It must be true right? Oh wait if their rules lawyer wankery doesn't work they call it "magic tea party". Do I have it right now?

Quote from: Panzerkraken;571113Of course you wouldn't have them run into it until they were complacent in its use and you could get the full enjoyment of the look on their face when the bad guy turns around and says "Hello, Magister Bond, I've been waiting for you." just before the Shield Guardian goons step out from behind the tapestries and dog pile him...

:teehee:


Also: I've been shorting myself +2 to hit by counting the first range band. The worst range penalty is -18 (ten range bands). That's what I get for spit-balling in a rush.

In deference to the possibility of invisible teleporters, and the relatively bad manuverability of Griffons etc, and to keep the average use of RAW in mind for general tactics:  while scent and various magics (strangely, and in keeping with an ongoing theme, specific counter-magic effects are actually very hard to get in magic items. No potion of true seeing, for example, and more permanent effects tend to be outrageously expensive... but allowing for some sort of detection) allow the griffon to know generally where the wizard is within the limits of scent (not a targeting sense, ferex), the standard response to an invisible teleport is to immedeatly make a x4 non-combat move with a diviation to the right or left at random (barring any free action detection, such as listen checks or 'arcane sight' or smelling), which would put the griffon and rider 240 feet from where they started, and probably more than medium range from wizard.  If the wizard is detected (listen checks) then archery while running (rolling against concealment if necessary) will still occur.

Also: Potion of circle protection from Evil (protection from charm and dominate spells, among other things). I have noted MOST of the pvp denner wizards love them some demons and devils, which means evil casters (and thus, evil critter summoning rather than celestial critter summoning...). 750gp. Works for alternate fighter builds as well as mounted archery builds.

Quote from: Spike;570922One odd question that's been bugging me is what people would rule, if they were the DM, and a Fighter with, say, the Cape of the Mountebank or some other teleport effect to 'reach' a flying wizard (or other monster) and start a grapple.
 
Would you let him even try to grapple or would he just fall stupidly?
 
If you let him grapple, would the grappled pair fall to earth (Fast? or Slow?)
 
.

Cape of the Mountebank works as Dimension Door I believe, so per that your turn ends when it goes off (and even if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have an action left to grab after activating the item). Unfortunately. The Sun School monk tactical feat (Complete Warrior) could let you go it. If they could get around that and do an action I'd let them do the grab, then count the attacker's weight as encumberance to see if they fall, so probably.

Hmm...

I'm wondering what other mage type tactics are 'unbeatable' on the whitespace that I could be addressing.  I pretty much have to dismiss Mistborn's scorching ray wizard as duh-dumb.  Against a random melee fighter he'll do some harsh fire damage (minus and resistance and missed rays), but there is damn good chance that's ALL he'll get to do before he eats a two handed weapon to the face.  Five-foot step casting is all well and good, but the fighter is probably dishing most of what he's taking, and has a lot more HP to do it with.  At best its a toss-up. (also: Light armor dex fighters, esp. with the amazingly common rings of protection, can have a decent touch ac, and fire resistance is probably the single most common resistance out there... though it would be funny if he ran into a fighter with a shield of reflection. What's that? maximized scortching ray right back atcha? I'm sorry, did you just kill yourself? oops...)


Sorry, sidetracked by humorous image.

There are a few items I consider nigh on mandatory for high-mid fighters. Something adamantium (short sword if nothing else. Archers actually have it 'made' as adamantium arrows are 60gp for 50), silver, and cold iron, preferrably something good aligned (and on that topic, evil is actually sorta dumb as choices go.  There isn't a 'team evil'... demons and devils won't 'not attack you' because you happen to be evil too, while good aligned critters (Archons and shit) will attack evil characters for being evil... but are likely to avoid conflict with good characters in most cases.  Fact is: Nice guys can sweet talk good monsters into being buddies far easier than evil rat-fuckers can convince evil monsters not to eat their face.  

Naturally some sort of decent ranged weapon as a back-up, and by mid-high level it'll probably carry a cheap +1 enchantment (and in all probability will not have been bought but simply picked up as 'scrap loot' from a random horde.).  

In games I've played in resistance magic (Saves) are almost literally the first thing you buy, regardless of class.  The big book o' magic items has a vest of resistance (freeing up the cloak for something else), and core has the cloak and the permanent resistance spell (either or...) and for particularly rich campaigns, the luck stone as well.

Depending on teamwork, a fighter SHOULD HAVE some means of handling charm magics, energy based spells and mobility.  In a well made group, the spell casters will actually have their own plans to move fighters around (or rather the entire group. Fly is good, Mass Fly is better. Phantom Steed was a big hit in several games I played in...).

Let me sum up some of what I've discussed so far:

Backup weapons: Adamantium short sword (for those golems), silver dagger (For those hugging werebears), +1 shortbow, one or more weapons should be aligned, if not actually holy (that's a high game item, big money), possibly holy/cold iron.  A complete mix of arrows for the shortbow (Ad, silver, cold iron, blessed). Some back ups can be disregarded depending on the DM and the Party. A Cleric that loves to cast 'bless weapons' negates the cost of an aligned weapon, for example. If lycanthropes never show up, silver is mostly not needed.

A fighter should also have potions for emergencies, regardless of support. WBL is a cash starver for games, but even still:  Big healing potion for those tough fights when the cleric is busy, a potion of protection from evil for fights where there is mind control (and the cleric is busy? Seriously: what cleric avoids casting protection from X spells if they know what's what?), ditto energy resist and fly (if no more permanent effect).

I've seen haste gear quite a bit at the table. maybe its three or ten rounds per day, but if ya need the extra movement and attack its a life saver. Not sure I'd call it 'mandatory'.

Environmental stuff tends to be situational. A potion of water-breathing can be a life saver or utterly useless.  Gasseous form/ethereal potions can add tactical options.  

With enough wealth I'm a fan of anti-magic stuff. Rods of absorption can be held by anyone (and then passed back to the wizard as a magic battery!), though unless you've dug up King Tut's Treasure you're not gonna be buying them out of pocket (50k, violating the WBL of tenth level by itself! for a disposable item at that!). A chime of interruption is cheaper and lasts longer but is less absolute. one option is a ring of counterspelling, charged with a dispel magic by a friendly wizard, though the DM may nix that as cheese, in which case loading it with the more common mind control or neg-status spells (Hold person/monster, dominate person etc) may be required.

While not exactly a combat item, everyone knows you'll need a hewards handy haversack (or something similar), which means your 'back up weapons' can be full scale two handers (if that's yer bag).

Anyway, this post is taking too long, and not really being nearly as useful as I intended, so I'm gonna call it here. My next aborted attempt will be to go over the spells by level and identify the major 'game changers' and their major flaws in one line responses.  Anything with 'short range' is obviously going to be limited by that fact. No wizard should be actively trying to operate within easy melee range, and at low levels being massively outranged by 'one shot kill' weapons (heavy crossbow vs level 1 wizard...) is just mean spirited (note, however that at level 1, protection from arrows is godly... if that what the wizard does with half his spell list.  I'll note that the 'best' 1 level wizard I've GM'd for used 'long term' defensive buffs and carried a crossbow. By level five he was still using the crossbow for most of his damage but had added status effects to his spell list...)

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;571163Cape of the Mountebank works as Dimension Door I believe, so per that your turn ends when it goes off (and even if that wasn't the case, you wouldn't have an action left to grab after activating the item). Unfortunately. The Sun School monk tactical feat (Complete Warrior) could let you go it. If they could get around that and do an action I'd let them do the grab, then count the attacker's weight as encumberance to see if they fall, so probably.

True enough. I've had GM's rule that speaking a command word is a free action (speech) rather than a standard action (activate magic item), but I think a hard, rule lawyer, look has to use the less exciting option.

In the older edition descriptions of Dimension Door I might have tried to argue that I could activate the spell and then use a move action to move through it the next action to get the same effect, but the current SRD text makes it functionally a teleport. Bamf rather than 'step through a doorway to X. Of course, that also means using it on a moving target...


....


Insane thought of the day, because we can:  large flying monster moving in straight line at predictable speed. DD ahead of and above monster so that your NEXT action occurs while you are essentially falling ON the monster.

Because i watch too many action movies to think otherwise.  

Sadly, Grappling big monsters in D&D is actually ANTI-cinematic. No heroic clambering all up on the Dragon of doom to stab him in the eye while he flies over Gotham... so sad...

You have to discover how Affect Normal Fires is über. Perhaps turning a raging bonfire trap into looking like mere crossable coals? Hand them an innocuous bushel that's secretly smoldering as they walk into the flour mill?

The thing about wizards is the number of options they could potentially use is virtually unlimited.  It's a little like chess.  While there are a number of clearly defined pieces, the way moves are combined with the situation make the game hard to visualize many moves in advance.  

Considering the maneuverability of the mount, there is a possibility of the wizard appearing directly ABOVE his target.  If the mount can't hover or ascend straight up, he's safe for a moment.  

If the wizard is invisible, the target may or may not have the means to see him.  If the wizard knows that he is, he might have to take other precautions, like mirror image.  If the target can't see invisible creatures, straight invisibility is the simplest option, by far.  Spells like silent image can lure the target to a designated point, wasting his target (and his mounts) attacks.

If the wizard is doing things right, he ends up in a position where he can get two or even three rounds of attacks in before the mount can move back into position (gaining altitude costs more movement than maintaining level flight).  Of course, the wizard might be subject to attacks from the arrows, so a spell that provides significant protection would also be helpful - but defensive spells wouldn't break the invisibility, so the wizard might go for a 'killing blow' without having the defenses up.  

A raven grappling a dragon (or a griffon) wouldn't work (since it's bonus is too low to initiate a grapple), but more evenly mattched creatures certainly could.  Summoning wouldn't break the invisibility, either.  

Ray of Enfeeblement and/orRay of Exhaustion might be a really useful spell at this point, especially if combined together.  The Ray of Enfeeblement deals 1d6+5 Strength damage.  Let's say it does 8 damage for the point of this discussion.  Instead of being able to carry 300 lbs., the mount is reduced to a carrying capacity of 99 lbs.  Considering we've just been talking about weight of the rider, this is probably enough to cause the mount to crash...  

Of course, this is still 'Mad Libs' with spells.  The specific tactics of the wizard will have been developed based on the spells that he has available.  A smart wizard (almost definitionally true) will have developed tactics that work with their available spells, and prepare spells that work well in combination with each other.  

Since MGuy made a Conjurer, and he has 5th-level spells, cloud kill is a real possibility.  If the opponent is on a hippogriff (3 HD) there is no save - instance death for the mount, and possibly 20d6 falling damage for the rider.  

If a griffon can be forced into a solid fog and cloudkill can be overlain such that the griffon is moving in the same direction as the fog, there's a chance of forcing it to remain in the cloud for 3+ rounds.  Even if the Con damage doesn't kill the mount or rider, it would make them more vulnerable to attacks that require a Fortitude Save.

Ideally, Mguy will be answering the speculation by running this fight three different times.

People keep forgetting that these battles typically don't occur in a vacuum.  That game wasn't designed that way anyway.  I.e., it was never intended for a wizard to blow his wad completely in every battle.

So if I were to come up with a plan to beat a wizard?  I'd throw a bunch of cannon fodder at him to get him to use up his spells.  A wizard has to have the right spells memorized anyway (and despite Denner claims, actual play does not mirror that very often where the MU has the perfect spells memorized for each scenario), so chances are that the Wizard will have spells memorized that are worthless to the scenario he faces.

So when you've spend your invisibility and cloudkill spells on my henchmen and followers, I'll carve you up later.

Actually, there is one thing no number of spells can do and that is meaningfully engage targets outside of a fairly limited range (200 feet for a level ten wizard, climbing to 300 (I believe) at level 20. A handful of direct combat spells like fireball (which more or less caps out at level 10 anyway) can swing 800 feet, but aren't the game changers most spells are held up to be.

I wouldn't but a 10th level character on a 3HD flying mount, which is why the hippogriff and pegasus were largely written out unless we went the cohort route (or 7HD huge hippogriffs were available) and stuck with the Griffon, which is comparable to the rider.

Having a wide open tool box is not a bad thing, but its isn't the ultimate thing (arguably, that's using what you DO have to its maximum potential).

To more directly address some of your points:

Cloudkill won't reach flying archer. Neither will rays (which are actually worse options due to the pathetic limits of range they have. Flying archer could, in fact, stay within a single range band (no penalty to hit) and STILL remain outside the combined reach of wizard flight and ray distance.  

Assuming clever tactics and movements to approach to medium spell distances (much easier, obviously) Cloudkill remains a nuisence for our griffon rider at best.


porting directly above does nothing.  No flying mount suggested can reasonably reach straight up, its true, though the archer can shoot. More importantly, however, is that the griffon archer won't actually try, he'll just electric bugaloo right the fuck back out of range, probably at a quad move (since he can still shoot, just at a -4 for running).

Mirror image is a delaying tactic, when the nature of the fight is that the fighter will eventually win. Shooting down mirror images or false flag illusionary targets costs him virtually nothing so long as he keeps the wizard out of reach.

So far the only viable spell mentioned (by me and you and pretty much everyone) is Invisibility, which is surprisingly hard for a fighter to beat by core rules (other than dust of appearance, which is massively limited by having to be right the fuck there.). However, See Invisible is a low level spell, so getting a custom made continuous magic item with that particular spell on it (The Eyepatch of See Invisibility) is more than do-able.  (as cast by a 3rd level caster (because I'm a cheap bitch) it would run 10k to have made, more or less (misc magic items do have some sort of -5 cost thing that baffled me going in...).

Why? Because not being able to see invisible monsters and wizards, when you are an archer, is a massive gimp, and just because the designers failed to account for non-caster invis beating doesn't mean I have to suck it up.

Quote from: Spike;571062Bullshit.  The longbow entry does not limit longbows to 'English yoeman yew longbows', and D&D catagorically tells us a Katana is a 'masterwork broadsword'.

All that demonstrates is that D&D is just being stupidly sloppy with its terms.  Again, yet another reason why analogizing from history is pointless in this game.

Why would I try to work from history when we're talking about a game with invisible flying wizards that bend reality?

For that matter, even if we kept to a strict english yoeman Longbow (instead of just a bow of exceptional length vs bows of ordinary length split), what proof (or for that matter, anecdotal evidence) do you offer that it was, in fact, impossible to use from horseback?

Just because yoeman didn't isn't actually proof.

By all means, learn me sumfin.

Quote from: Spike;571229Why would I try to work from history when we're talking about a game with invisible flying wizards that bend reality?

For that matter, even if we kept to a strict english yoeman Longbow (instead of just a bow of exceptional length vs bows of ordinary length split), what proof (or for that matter, anecdotal evidence) do you offer that it was, in fact, impossible to use from horseback?

Just because yoeman didn't isn't actually proof.

By all means, learn me sumfin.

It would be very difficult to use one because the grip is in the center.  You'd want something like a Yumi, which is made for horseback shooting, and is almost identical to the longbow in terms of range and penetration.

I'm trying to get a grasp on why the grip being in the center would make it hard to use... no, strike that... IMPOSSIBLE to use from horseback.

A man sitting on a horse is farther from the ground than a man on foot, so I know it ain't that trailing edge digging in the dirt.