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Witch, Druid, Shaman may be removed by WoTC

Started by Kerstmanneke82, October 09, 2023, 11:02:27 AM

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Kerstmanneke82

October 09, 2023, 11:02:27 AM
Grain of salt here because I can't find any official info on the net so far, but WoTC thinks, or so the rumours go, of removing the word Witch from their products (presumably Magic: the Gathering but maybe D&D as well). Same rumours say they may retire Druid and Shaman as well. They do so because of religious connotations, it seems.

Anybody have the real, official, story on that?

Bruwulf

#1
October 09, 2023, 11:20:44 AM
I guess you could make the argument a druid is just a subclass of cleric; it's been treated like that before. But it was still a *distinct* subclass.

At that point you might as well just go with with something like Warrior, Rogue and Mage or something, where there are no real classes. Or hell, what was it T20 used... Warrior, Expert and Adept?

Armchair Gamer

#2
October 09, 2023, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on October 09, 2023, 11:02:27 AM
Grain of salt here because I can't find any official info on the net so far, but WoTC thinks, or so the rumours go, of removing the word Witch from their products (presumably Magic: the Gathering but maybe D&D as well). Same rumours say they may retire Druid and Shaman as well. They do so because of religious connotations, it seems.

Anybody have the real, official, story on that?

  According to Mark Rosewater's blog https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/, "witch" is not being removed, but they don't use it as a 'type' for "real-world religious considerations," and are considering the same for "druid" and "shaman."

  My response is what it's been for years: Don't talk to me about sensitivity to real-world religion until you stop glamourizing and overhyping Asmodeus. :)

Yitzhak Marxx

#3
October 09, 2023, 11:53:40 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 09, 2023, 11:40:15 AM
  According to Mark Rosewater's blog https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/, "witch" is not being removed, but they don't use it as a 'type' for "real-world religious considerations," and are considering the same for "druid" and "shaman."

Once again their "RPGs" get hollower and more generic, evermore incapable of birthing games with narratives where anything matters at all. These are the people that say/think orcs and drow are black because theyre barbarians or occultist thieves (projecting their implicit beliefs), so it's fitting.
Art is mystic and good myth is truer than concrete reality.

Brad

#4
October 09, 2023, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Yitzhak Marxx on October 09, 2023, 11:53:40 AM
Once again their "RPGs" get hollower and more generic, evermore incapable of birthing games with narratives where anything matters at all. These are the people that say/think orcs and drow are black because theyre barbarians or occultist thieves (projecting their implicit beliefs), so it's fitting.

Pretty soon you'll be able to play a wide variety of characters in D&D, just as long as they're non-binary, of indeterminate race, vaguely have some sort of a job that defies categorization, and don't really do anything except protest "The Man," whoever that might be this week.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Yitzhak Marxx

#5
October 09, 2023, 12:01:41 PM
Quote from: Brad on October 09, 2023, 11:57:40 AM
Pretty soon you'll be able to play a wide variety of characters in D&D, just as long as they're non-binary, of indeterminate race, vaguely have some sort of a job that defies categorization, and don't really do anything except protest "The Man," whoever that might be this week.

Evil blonde elves being the men seems the current one. The untold truth is that elves are the true latinos.
Art is mystic and good myth is truer than concrete reality.

Exploderwizard

#6
October 09, 2023, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: Brad on October 09, 2023, 11:57:40 AM
Quote from: Yitzhak Marxx on October 09, 2023, 11:53:40 AM
Once again their "RPGs" get hollower and more generic, evermore incapable of birthing games with narratives where anything matters at all. These are the people that say/think orcs and drow are black because theyre barbarians or occultist thieves (projecting their implicit beliefs), so it's fitting.

Pretty soon you'll be able to play a wide variety of characters in D&D, just as long as they're non-binary, of indeterminate race, vaguely have some sort of a job that defies categorization, and don't really do anything except protest "The Man," whoever that might be this week.

As official D&D gets blander and less appealing to the majority who are not fucked in the head. the ranks of the OSR will swell.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

BoxCrayonTales

#7
October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PM
Because obviously it's more important to be respectful of neo-pagans who never complained about this rather than inventing a coherent theology in which these words are actually meaningful and actually relate to the real world words.

What's next, retiring "wight" or "phylactery" because they're used in Asatru and Judaism? Oh wait, the latter actually happened.

I can't really bring myself to care. When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about classes like the witch, druid or shaman?

Yitzhak Marxx

#8
October 09, 2023, 12:43:04 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 09, 2023, 12:18:38 PM
As official D&D gets blander and less appealing to the majority who are not fucked in the head. the ranks of the OSR will swell.
That is what I most desire regarding the situation. If OSR which is not infected by the same type, and thus its philosophy of play (which is a philosophy in itself, really) became widely popular or even predominant, society will be way less fucked by the modern influences that led to WoTC and etc.
Art is mystic and good myth is truer than concrete reality.

honeydipperdavid

#9
October 09, 2023, 12:44:31 PM
I just pray that WotC makes up more new words that mean nothing to replace them.  Maybe like "Melanated Magicians" or MelMags for short or "Natural Naturists" or NatNur's for short.  Just keep putting out nonsense speak.  Please WotC make your products so screwed up language wise that people will have no understanding what you are talking about.

David Johansen

#10
October 09, 2023, 12:48:32 PM
It seems to me, if you don't want to be biased you'd make sure they weren't inferior options rather than erasing them.

I'd call it virtue signaling, but it's not: cowardice is not a virtue.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Bruwulf

#11
October 09, 2023, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PMWhat's next, retiring "wight" or "phylactery" because they're used in Asatru and Judaism? Oh wait, the latter actually happened.


I wouldn't really describe Wight as being some term of art in reconstruction heathenism, but they'll never throw a bone to Asatru and company anyway. They're in the doghouse because too many people associate them with nazis.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PMI can't really bring myself to care. When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about classes like the witch, druid or shaman?

I like druids.

Kerstmanneke82

#12
October 09, 2023, 01:13:44 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on October 09, 2023, 11:20:44 AM
I guess you could make the argument a druid is just a subclass of cleric; it's been treated like that before. But it was still a *distinct* subclass.

At that point you might as well just go with with something like Warrior, Rogue and Mage or something, where there are no real classes. Or hell, what was it T20 used... Warrior, Expert and Adept?

I think I must have been a bit clearer on this, I do mean the names, not the classes in and of themselves.

honeydipperdavid

#13
October 09, 2023, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on October 09, 2023, 12:49:23 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PMWhat's next, retiring "wight" or "phylactery" because they're used in Asatru and Judaism? Oh wait, the latter actually happened.


I wouldn't really describe Wight as being some term of art in reconstruction heathenism, but they'll never throw a bone to Asatru and company anyway. They're in the doghouse because too many people associate them with nazis.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 09, 2023, 12:31:53 PMI can't really bring myself to care. When was the last time anyone gave a fuck about classes like the witch, druid or shaman?

I like druids.

There was a quest to help Wang Ni Wong and Rashi So Wong help gather necromancy ingredients.  As the party progresses through the quest chain, the find they are helping the necromances create a Wight.  However the quest always ends in failure.  At the end a wise sage hears about the party failure and tells them "Two wongs can't make a wight".

BadApple

#14
October 09, 2023, 01:42:57 PM
This reminds me of the episode of Fairly Odd Parents when Timmy wished everyone was the same and everyone was turned into a gray blob.
>Blade Runner RPG
Terrible idea, overwhelming majority of ttrpg players can't pass Voight-Kampff test.
    - Anonymous
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