There´s an intrigueing difference between the games from the Midwest [TSR!, GDW!] and those from California [RQ, Champions etc.], when you go back in RPG history.
Why is that?
What happened in the Midwest to enable such a rich culture of Wargaming and derived RPGs?
Why is it that so many cool gamers are also located in the Midwest?
Is there something in the water?
There ain't nuthin else to do out thataways, especially in the winter. When I was out there I'd get struck with debilitating boredom just from stepping outside it's so damn flat. :D
Sett, it's because the midwest rocks for anything most people consider lame.
I love the midwest.
Care to explain?
I´ve never been to the Midwest, except when driving through.
What´s it like compared to Oakland or Virgina Beach or Fairfax County?
That´s where I´ve been most of the time when in the US, but these places aren´t gaming hotbeds. I mean Berkeley is obvious and needs no discussion.
But the Midwest?
What´s going on there?
It seems I need to go there sometime in the future.
Why the Wargaming?
Is Palladium Midwest, too?
Quote from: SettembriniBut the Midwest?
What´s going on there?
Indiana is Rotwang! country.
These distinctions probably emerged because communication technologies were not as developed as today. Probably.
I think a plausible what-if for the birth of role-playing could be constructed from any large population area. The Midwest RPGs are from an area bounded by Minnepolis/ St. Paul, Milwaukee, and Chicago.
California in the early 70's was a ferment of alt ideas because of the 60's so it is no surprise that RPGs developed once the initial concept was put forth.
South is far more conservative back in the days so unlikely to have a large enough population of wargamers. The Mountain West sparsely populated.
As for why the upper midwest developed RPGs and not say the Washington,Phil, NY, Boston corridor? Or the Chicago to Cleveland Corridor. Or Ohio (a lot of large to medium size cities in one area)
Different areas of the US have different "personalities" perhaps the upper midwest was more likely generate a slightly larger proportion of wargamers and the presence of geography and population took care of the rest.
I think any difference that you will find will be a matter of inches. Wargaming was starting its golden age. Somebody in one of the more densely populated areas of the US would have tried a more free form game than the fixed scenarios generally offered. Remember the initial appeal of RPGs in the war gaming community that it allowed to set your own goals and that it offered continuity.
Also don't forget that the SCA was already started by early 70s. So RPGs could have started from a LARP. However the crucial ingredient missing from SCA was that is was (and remains) more of a sport/craftsmen organization than a LARP which is more theater oriented. It doesn't should like a big leap but it is.
Quote from: SettembriniIs Palladium Midwest, too?
Yep. Or Old Northwest, if you want to get particular. (Michigan)
Sett, any time you can make it over, you'll be welcome in my beloved hometown of Indianapolis.
The middle of America is the butt of a lot of jokes for people on both coasts, but for me, it has a lot going for it--plenty to do, 4 seasons, a generally low cost of living vs. other parts of the US, and generally polite folks. The landscpae is also a lot more diverse and interesting than folks would otherwise lead you to believe. I've lived a lot of places, in a lot of cities and countries, but I wouldn't change where I am now for the world. :) I love the Midwest. Then again, there's good people all over (I should hate clash, him being from New England and whatnot, but he's a good guy [go Colts!]). :p
I don't know if I really see any difference in the type of gaming companies. Companies like Palladium, TSR, Chessex, Kenzer, etc., are/were in the Midwest. SJ Games is in Texas. Iron Crown is in Viriginia. I don't really see any perceptible I see more of a difference in the attitude towards fantasy in European games vs. the US (namely, Warhammer vs. D&D).
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThe middle of America is the butt of a lot of jokes for people on both coasts, but for me, it has a lot going for it--plenty to do, 4 seasons, a generally low cost of living vs. other parts of the US, and generally polite folks.
Bah. Seasons! Only one of 'em's any use to me, and the other three are either not good enough or just plan crap! Still, all my stuff is here.
Reading Jeff R.'s blog post about how he's used to Illinois being flat says a lot about diversity in geography; I'm next door in Indiana and I'm surrounded by rolling hills, ravines, stuff like that. RIGHT NEXT DOOR!
I agree that the climate is a factor. Wisconsin and Minnesota have pretty long, harsh winters, encouraging the development of indoor activities. I also think that the more "make love, not war" vibe of the two coasts possibly retarded the development of the wargaming hobby that birthed RPGs.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Bah. Seasons! Only one of 'em's any use to me, and the other three are either not good enough or just plan crap! Still, all my stuff is here.
Reading Jeff R.'s blog post about how he's used to Illinois being flat says a lot about diversity in geography; I'm next door in Indiana and I'm surrounded by rolling hills, ravines, stuff like that. RIGHT NEXT DOOR!
True--you are smack in the really pretty part of Indiana--the south of the state is BEAUTIFUL.
The funny thing is you could drive an hour north and be surrounded by the flattest farmland in existence.
Why not the Midwest?
I agree with the sentiment that there's not much here to do, otherwise. Some people opt to start drinking at an early age and some people opt to nerd out. Also, fair warning: they put bacon on fucking everything here.
Quote from: BrantaiI agree with the sentiment that there's not much here to do, otherwise. Some people opt to start drinking at an early age and some people opt to nerd out.
That's the bare truth right there, especially during the winter, which during January and February gets really harsh. I live on God's own pool table here in the Red River valley and those days are sub-zero and windy. The two most likely options seem to be nerdy hobbies or functional alcoholism even today. I think that it's also about the people. They tend toward the old-fashioned, and growing up in tight-knit socially active chuches and are not afraid of social clubs, especially back in the formative days of the hobby.
That's my speculation anyways. Nowadays, things around here are more fragmented, and the most social geeks are anime fans, not RPGers. Kind of a shame really, I would like to try out an extra person at the table.
It strikes me that the midwest is full of down to earth 'do it yourself' sensible people. Never mind that in California everything is done out of doors (beaches, cars, whatever) and people on the coasts are, for reasons unfathomable to me, obsessed with 'cool' of one sort or another.
See, when you have a bunch of people who think the out of doors is for work (farming, shoveling snow, whatever) and who like to get their hands in... and don't have some weird, unrealistic, hangups about violence... well, I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone decided they were tired of just recreating the battles and tired of just listening too/reading the stories and decided they wanted to DO the stuff.
Based purely on vague stereotypes of the regions of course.
Quote from: jrientsI agree that the climate is a factor. Wisconsin and Minnesota have pretty long, harsh winters, encouraging the development of indoor activities. I also think that the more "make love, not war" vibe of the two coasts possibly retarded the development of the wargaming hobby that birthed RPGs.
I think this may be the "inch" that led to the development of D&D. I live in NW PA, west of the Alleghenies and that means anything that the upper midwest gets we get a few days later. I know how general winter can keep the people inside.
Mind it isn't horrible but all things consider why go outside if you don't have too or have something specific to do.
Quote from: JamesVThe two most likely options seem to be nerdy hobbies or functional alcoholism even today.
That's my speculation anyways. Nowadays, things around here are more fragmented, and the most social geeks are anime fans, not RPGers. Kind of a
shame really, I would like to try out an extra person at the table.
There wasn't that many options back in the 70's to keep you and your friends occupied. TV was interesting but unlike today shows were on when they were on and that it. Plus, in my area there was one independent channel that showed sci-fi, little rascals, horror films (dracula, frankenstein, etc), godzilla movies, and three stooges on Saturday afternoons.
Today in contrast you have not only have a lot more options, many of those options are effective at keeping you entertained for hours.
My own kids personally watch a ton of history channel and animal planet, interwoven with the occasional star wars/star trek DVD and Thomas the Tank Engine. What remarkable is that those two channel exist. When I was growing up Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and the occasional Disney special were it as far as animal stuff goes and only if you get a special news program will you have a history channel style show.
The downside is that you still got to watch the hours they spend in front of the tube. But gee the things they find out. The other day we were in Burger King and they started babbling about its history and how they made food because they watched one of food programs that history channel occasionally puts on.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstTrue--you are smack in the really pretty part of Indiana--the south of the state is BEAUTIFUL.
The funny thing is you could drive an hour north and be surrounded by the flattest farmland in existence.
You mean there's a place in the midwest with actual hills? I remember a place outside of Chicago where someone had
built a tiny 15 foot high hill and put a park bench on top. It commanded a vast vista. I felt like a microbe in a petri dish - same as I felt in Florida. The horizon's so far away it takes minutes for light to get to you.
Pittsburgh on the other hand had not spot of level ground larger than a VW bug. The folks there have one leg shorter than the other for better purchase on the slopes. They look with distain on lesser mortals and mountain goats.
-clash
Quote from: SpikeIt strikes me that the midwest is full of down to earth 'do it yourself' sensible people.
I grew up in Kansas and Missouri, and I took away what I think of as that sensibility. Two other things crop up often when expatriate Midwesterners get together and talk about being from the Midwest (honestly I think we're worse about this than Texans).
The politeness (or social engagement or playing well together or something) factor contributes to good role playing. My mom would just think I was rude and showboating if my character bogarted all of the action in a group. Though she's never tell me about it. :D
The other facet is a kind of understated, but reaaaly macabre sense of humor, leavened with a heavy tolerance, dare I say joy in, the magic of scatology. So many normally nice and sweet people who are way comfortable with grisly beheadings and poo. Is that part just me?
That's an interesting take on the subject Reimdall. As a guy who considers himself reasonably well-adjusted but puts some poop in nearly every dungeon he makes, I'm inclined to agree. :D
(Seriously, whenever the party finds a latrine or dungheap or just an animal turd, Pat is always like "A-ha! So there it is! I was wondering when we'd stumble upon the poo.")
Fertilizer.
Hard to be grossed out by that which you use to grow your food if you are aware of it from a personal connection on a day to day basis.
I always blamed my scatology on my career field, not my hometown, so who knows....
In the summer I would occasionally step in the stuff, while running around barefoot. That had to shape my attitude on the subject at least a bit.
There's only so many times you can be attempting to scrape Rover effluvium from the bottom of your New Balance hightops before you start threatening to put it on your friends with a stick. Add a funny voice and you have the main plot spine of many of my campaigns. ;)
Yeah... one thing that has me freaked out by living on teh pacific coast is the prevelance... nay! Ubiquity of leash and scoop laws. I haven't been back to the midwest in over a decade, but I hope to god they don't have such assinine rules there. Serious, I'm expected to carry a spraybottle of vinegar water just incase the dog pees. WTF!?!
No wonder the poor bastard never gets out on a walk.... he might, you know, have the call of nature somewhere.
Quote from: flyingmicePittsburgh on the other hand had not spot of level ground larger than a VW bug. The folks there have one leg shorter than the other for better purchase on the slopes. They look with distain on lesser mortals and mountain goats.
-clash
When I helped with a LARPS Group the leader's house was in the south hills of pittsburgh. He was on Happy Hill Drive. I was taking a friend there one time and he mused "I wonder why they called it happy hill?"
I quipped "Because they were happy just to get up the damn hill."
Quote from: estarWhen I helped with a LARPS Group the leader's house was in the south hills of pittsburgh. He was on Happy Hill Drive. I was taking a friend there one time and he mused "I wonder why they called it happy hill?"
I quipped "Because they were happy just to get up the damn hill."
Hehe! I know the feeling! There are places in Pittsburgh where it's exceedingly difficult to go from one one neighborhood to the next because they are on totally different levels. It's easier to go to the next neighborhood beyond over some bridge or viaduct. :D
-clash
Quote from: SpikeYeah... one thing that has me freaked out by living on teh pacific coast is the prevelance... nay! Ubiquity of leash and scoop laws. I haven't been back to the midwest in over a decade, but I hope to god they don't have such assinine rules there. Serious, I'm expected to carry a spraybottle of vinegar water just incase the dog pees. WTF!?!
No wonder the poor bastard never gets out on a walk.... he might, you know, have the call of nature somewhere.
We've had leash laws in Hillsboro, IL forever and they just passed a scoop ordinance. I can't speak for the rest of the region.
Quote from: SettembriniThere´s an intrigueing difference between the games from the Midwest [TSR!, GDW!] and those from California [RQ, Champions etc.], when you go back in RPG history.
Why is that?
What happened in the Midwest to enable such a rich culture of Wargaming and derived RPGs?
I hope the distinction here is not between a rich gaming culture and an impoverished one. Bay Area stuff was rich too, but rich different. I don't want to revive some age-old debate, on which Cali will correct me anyway, but if RQ is above all Glorantha (rather than realism), and if Champions is above all build, and if we add Arduin to the mix... then we're looking at a pretty diverse scene, no?
You've been to Virginia Beach? For a jam session with N.E.R.D.?
Quote from: jrientsI agree that the climate is a factor. Wisconsin and Minnesota have pretty long, harsh winters, encouraging the development of indoor activities. I also think that the more "make love, not war" vibe of the two coasts possibly retarded the development of the wargaming hobby that birthed RPGs.
People are settling on climate, and it's plausible. But it's not just the midwest: most of the northeast, at least down to Maryland (which is the Mid-Atlantic if you want to get picky), has cold winters--often
rainy and cold, far worse than snow--and stiflingly hot summers.
What's more--wargaming not a coastal thing? SPI? Avalon Hill?
If you have to generalize, it might be more of a California vs. everyplace else thing.
Quote from: SpikeYeah... one thing that has me freaked out by living on teh pacific coast is the prevelance... nay! Ubiquity of leash and scoop laws. I haven't been back to the midwest in over a decade, but I hope to god they don't have such assinine rules there. Serious, I'm expected to carry a spraybottle of vinegar water just incase the dog pees. WTF!?!
No wonder the poor bastard never gets out on a walk.... he might, you know, have the call of nature somewhere.
I've never heard of the vinegar thing, and I suspect it's probably lame, but scoop laws are necessary because some people are idiots who won't clean up after their dogs in public areas. I don't care what people do in their own yard, but on walking trails, in parks, etc. you damn well better clean up after your dog as far as I am concerned. It's not just gross, it's also because things spread that way, and I don't want my dog getting sick due to somebody else's laziness.
Leash laws -- it depends. If someone's dog is very well-behaved and responds to voice commands, I'm okay with them being off-leash. But honestly, this isn't most dogs (including my own -- when he's outside, he is always on a leash or in a fenced-in area), so I think they should be leashed unless they meet the above criteria or it's in a secure enclosure like a yard or a dog park.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand...
Quote from: BrantaiI agree with the sentiment that there's not much here to do, otherwise. Some people opt to start drinking at an early age and some people opt to nerd out. Also, fair warning: they put bacon on fucking everything here.
It's true. And it's weird, because even the nerds start drinking early, and I love bacon.
So, wait, are we known for wargaming now, though?
I thought there might be a bunch of role-playing because the Midwest tends to be a little low on culture, so we needed to invent some. >.>
Quote from: Thanatos02It's true. And it's weird, because even the nerds start drinking early, and I love bacon.
I don't drink.
But bacon? Bacon comes from God's own butt.
EDIT: Wait, no.
So wait, how many of us are living in the midwest here, anyhow?
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!But bacon? Bacon comes from God's own butt.
EDIT: Wait, no.
Yes! Don't backslide on the bacon.
Quote from: ReimdallYes! Don't backslide on the bacon.
Huh huh huh. "Backslide".
Okay, it's like it comes OFF of God's butt, not OUT of Go-
Look, you can sort it out.
Quote from: Thanatos02So wait, how many of us are living in the midwest here, anyhow?
Don't know if you can count me as I'm out of the region, but I'm a former cornhusker. You just don't get more midwest than that.
Quote from: SpikeDon't know if you can count me as I'm out of the region, but I'm a former cornhusker. You just don't get more midwest than that.
Same here. I'm a former jayhawker, though more as a fan of KU basketball than as a pre-civil war paramilitary abolitionist.
Quote from: ReimdallSame here. I'm a former jayhawker, though more as a fan of KU basketball than as a pre-civil war paramilitary abolitionist.
Pretty low post-count for a guy that old.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Look, you can sort it out.
Bacon = Glory. Sorted.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Pretty low post-count for a guy that old.
Dude, I gotta keep Kansas a free state, then post when I can. :D
Quote from: flyingmicePittsburgh on the other hand had not spot of level ground larger than a VW bug. The folks there have one leg shorter than the other for better purchase on the slopes. They look with distain on lesser mortals and mountain goats.
-clash
:haw: The beautiful river hills of The Burg.
I asked a co-worker who's from Lake Geneva. Apparently, there's not a whole hell of a lot to do there.
Quote from: SpikeIt strikes me that the midwest is full of down to earth 'do it yourself' sensible people. Never mind that in California everything is done out of doors (beaches, cars, whatever) and people on the coasts are, for reasons unfathomable to me, obsessed with 'cool' of one sort or another.
See, when you have a bunch of people who think the out of doors is for work (farming, shoveling snow, whatever) and who like to get their hands in... and don't have some weird, unrealistic, hangups about violence... well, I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone decided they were tired of just recreating the battles and tired of just listening too/reading the stories and decided they wanted to DO the stuff.
Based purely on vague stereotypes of the regions of course.
I was born and raised in Ohio, near Cleveland, and have lived in Southern California for a few years now, and I have to say I see a lot of truth in what you're saying here. There is a definite cultural difference between the midwest and the coasts, and from my own perspective, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. The bit about the importance of "cool" is spot-on - the notion of what is and isn't cool on the coasts (I've been to New York, and have known people from there) is very narrowly and rigidly defined, much more so than where I'm from originally. In my experience. I know this is purely anecdotal. I also know it is a gross generalization. And all that other qualifying blahblahblah.
Quote from: Elliot WilenPeople are settling on climate, and it's plausible. But it's not just the midwest: most of the northeast, at least down to Maryland (which is the Mid-Atlantic if you want to get picky), has cold winters--often rainy and cold, far worse than snow--and stiflingly hot summers.
Dude rainy far worst than snow? You must be out side your mind. Come on up to the upper penisuka of michigan with me this winter. See what bad snowy conditions really are. Up in the Keweenaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keweenaw) they get an average snowfall of 250 inches per year. Theres only three things to do there in winter. Snowmobile, drink, and game.
Quote from: RoninDude rainy far worst than snow? You must be out side your mind. Come on up to the upper penisuka of michigan with me this winter.
Thanks for the offer! But...probably not! :)
Around Maryland, and probably the rest of the Atlantic seaboard, though, snow really is better than rain, at least if you're a kid and provided it isn't
during a blizzard.
After a significant snowstorm, it's fun fun fun.
But the worst is cold rain, sleet, freezing rain, which come pretty often from autumn through spring.
We don't have mountains here in IL, so we build our own (http://www.richard-seaman.com/USA/Cities/Chicago/Landmarks/index.html).
Climate? Eh, maybe. I mean, we gamed, as a kid, in the summer as much as the winter.
Flat? Sure, in places. I mean, the Cheeseheads call us Flatlanders (if they are in a nice mood).
There's a ton to do in Lake Geneva - depending on what you like to do. It's a bit of a tourist area, but there's ton of outdoor stuff. They have movie theaters, bars, etc. I mean, it's no Chicago, from whence EGG hails. Whenever I hear people say "there's not a lot to do" I tend to think they mean "of a certain category of 'things to do'"
What about the possibility that once the first one(s) hit the market, the places most likely impacted were around the source. so they had the longest time to absorb the idea and then build upon it. So in the early days, the people most exposed to gaming were in and around the upper midwest so the virus struck first there. It would seem natural that the first follow-ups would come from that same area.
Just a thought.
Any time, Sett. I have two extra rooms and a basement ready for gaming.
Well, sure, it had to start somewhere.
We're getting mixed up between "why'd it start there" (A: I just said, it had to start somewhere) and "why the difference between styles from different regions?" I seem to recall John Kim talking about this once, but I'm not sure I agreed with what he had to say.
Quote from: RoninDude rainy far worst than snow? You must be out side your mind. Come on up to the upper penisuka of michigan with me this winter. See what bad snowy conditions really are. Up in the Keweenaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keweenaw) they get an average snowfall of 250 inches per year. Theres only three things to do there in winter. Snowmobile, drink, and game.
I grew up in Menominee and went to school at Michigan Tech. Live through more snow than Siberia and you get perspective. You also develop a hobby of some sort and I don't like alcohol that much. ;)
Bill da' Yooper.
I have some friends who went to Tech. I live here in Grand Rapids, and having a thriving gaming group, and there's a pretty thriving population of gamers here in town-I have to agree come winter it's good to have a hobby.
I want a four seasons room when I buy a bigger place-something I can really do up as my game room. I plan on doing it up righteous!
Quote from: Gunslinger:haw: The beautiful river hills of The Burg.
I asked a co-worker who's from Lake Geneva. Apparently, there's not a whole hell of a lot to do there.
Yea, Pittsburgh is a lovely city. It's just very... vertical. :D
-clash
Quote from: jrientsI agree that the climate is a factor. Wisconsin and Minnesota have pretty long, harsh winters, encouraging the development of indoor activities.
That's really all there is to it. That and the type of people who enjoy this type of thing tend to gravitate together in tight nit groups that actually DO things...instead of talking about doing things. Wisconsin is really filled with a lot of dumb-asses...and pockets of the truly wonderful and brilliant.
Seems like there's a bunch of us. We ought to get together some time. I bet it would be neat.
And you'd finally get to see me! A dream come true, I'm sure... :what:
Quote from: ReimdallBacon = Glory. Sorted.
Quoted for TRUTH! Sing it brother!
Grand Rapids? I'm in Holland quite a bit...right up the road.
Sorry to derail with stalking fellow siters.....
If you're ever in town let me know. We're quite hospitable! We'll lift a pint or two!
Probably Labor Day. Might even get gaming dispensation since I'm missing GenCon due to falling on the sword...
At the very least a drink is in order!
Absolutely! We game once a week on average! And we always welcome guests!
Quote from: James J SkachGrand Rapids? I'm in Holland quite a bit...right up the road.
Sorry to derail with stalking fellow siters.....
Linda grew up in Muskegon...Troll.
Bill
I said it in the other thread (was is Shaolin Squirrels?) - You and Clash and a bunch of us from the flyover country...the First Annual Midwest Small Press Game Convention.
Quote from: James J SkachI said it in the other thread (was is Shaolin Squirrels?) - You and Clash and a bunch of us from the flyover country...the First Annual Midwest Small Press Game Convention.
I would not argue. Personally, I think it would be a neat idea. That said, I truly and wholeheartedly suck a con organization. That would need to fall on someone else's shoulders.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltI would not argue. Personally, I think it would be a neat idea. That said, I truly and wholeheartedly suck a con organization. That would need to fall on someone else's shoulders.
Bill
Organization? Organization is my middle name! Unfortunately, my first name is "Dis."
-clash
They have two Con's that I know about here in Michigan The Capital Area Gamers and of course UCON down UofM way. I always wanted one over here in GR. I'd help organize something like that.
And after Uncle Sam's Misguided Children was done with me I'm all sorts of organizational!
@Pierce: California is obvious and easy to explain. Berkeley even moreso. I wasn´t implying anything besides that regarding Californian games.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstCompanies like Palladium, TSR, Chessex, Kenzer, etc., are/were in the Midwest. SJ Games is in Texas. Iron Crown is in Viriginia.
Niggling detail, but please note that Chessex actually
started in Berkeley, CA, and it's original warehouse was there.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI hope the distinction here is not between a rich gaming culture and an impoverished one. Bay Area stuff was rich too, but rich different. I don't want to revive some age-old debate, on which Cali will correct me anyway, but if RQ is above all Glorantha (rather than realism), and if Champions is above all build, and if we add Arduin to the mix... then we're looking at a pretty diverse scene, no?
Also, Cyberpunk. R.Talsorian started in Santa Cruz in the late 1980's, then moved to Berkeley when CP took off.
Quote from: Settembrini@Pierce: California is obvious and easy to explain. Berkeley even moreso. I wasn´t implying anything besides that regarding Californian games.
Please explain further?
Quote from: zombenAlso, Cyberpunk. R.Talsorian started in Santa Cruz in the late 1980's, then moved to Berkeley when CP took off.
Really? I always thought Pondsmith was a Washingtonian from the get go? I could drive to R.Talsorian headquarters in about an hour... maybe less.
Or am I really, desperately, lost on this?
Quote from: SpikeReally? I always thought Pondsmith was a Washingtonian from the get go? I could drive to R.Talsorian headquarters in about an hour... maybe less.
Or am I really, desperately, lost on this?
When I worked at Chaosium in the late 1980's/early 1990's, I used to go visit, Mike, Dave Ackerman, etc. at their office in Berkeley all the time. He was right next to the Chessex/Berkeley Game Distributors warehouse.
Quote from: Serious PaulThey have two Con's that I know about here in Michigan The Capital Area Gamers and of course UCON down UofM way. I always wanted one over here in GR. I'd help organize something like that.
And after Uncle Sam's Misguided Children was done with me I'm all sorts of organizational!
When and where does the Capital Area Gamers take place?
He* works for Microsoft now, right? So he would have moved his old office near his new job. If so, what would surprise me is that there is still an office at all, given the non-state of R. Talsorian.
*Edit: "He" being Mike Pondsmith.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityHe* works for Microsoft now, right? So he would have moved his old office near his new job. If so, what would surprise me is that there is still an office at all, given the non-state of R. Talsorian.
*Edit: "He" being Mike Pondsmith.
Yes, from what I understand, the R.Tal offices are up in Washington now. I don't think Mike works for Microsoft anymore, however. Last I heard, he was doing freelance consulting work for the games industry.
Quote from: zombenPlease explain further?
He seems to think that all early Bay Area gamers/designers were proto-swinesque gonzo stoners.
There may be a tiny grain of truth here, but it's a shaky foundation for some vast theoretical edifice.
Quote from: RoninWhen and where does the Capital Area Gamers take place?
Hold on let me look it up- I know it's in Lansing, at the MSU Student Union-here is their site (http://www.carp-mi.net/), which doesn't have the Con dates up right now, but they do have other game days (http://www.carp-mi.net/Gamedays/HomePage).
I want to say there's one in the fall, and summer-but it's been a while since I lived over there, and went.
I know a few of the game stores right down by campus have game days as well, and have adverts. I also signed up for their mailing list way back, and they mail notices for free.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityHe seems to think that all early Bay Area gamers/designers were proto-swinesque gonzo stoners.
There may be a tiny grain of truth here, but it's a shaky foundation for some vast theoretical edifice.
NONONO!
It just needs no explanation why there´s a hotbed of activity near such a large University. THE University at Berkeley.
But Normal, Illinois?
Oh.
Quote from: Serious PaulHold on let me look it up- I know it's in Lansing, at the MSU Student Union-here is their site (http://www.carp-mi.net/), which doesn't have the Con dates up right now, but they do have other game days (http://www.carp-mi.net/Gamedays/HomePage).
I want to say there's one in the fall, and summer-but it's been a while since I lived over there, and went.
I know a few of the game stores right down by campus have game days as well, and have adverts. I also signed up for their mailing list way back, and they mail notices for free.
Hmm... I never attended a CARP event, or game before. Which is probably pretty sad being I live in the lansing area. But I never really been one for cons, and association's in the past. I find my interest in them growing.
Normal has a university...no? Isn't ISU in Bloomington/Normal?
Or are you being elitist about what kind of university makes it self-explanatory, Sett?
He may not be aware of Illinois State's location, being from Germany. I know I wouldn't.
Quote from: BrantaiHe may not be aware of Illinois State's location, being from Germany. I know I wouldn't.
It's why I asked. I wanted to make sure. Or more accurately, I wanted to probe this theory that "universityness" had anything to do with it.
Quote from: Settembrini@Pierce: California is obvious and easy to explain. Berkeley even moreso. I wasn´t implying anything besides that regarding Californian games.
A number of people think Madison, WI is pretty similar to Berkeley Set.
So's Lawrence KS. If you were back in the hippie days, and wanted to drive from Berkely to Columbia, or vice versa, the two best places to stop and rest were Madison and Lawrence. One of the coolest things that happened whie I was in school, during the 20 year annniversary of the "Summer of Love" was the River City Reunion, where a bunch of the aging beat writers and other counter-cultural figures--Hunter Thompson, Timothy Leary, etc--held a festival of aging hippie wierdness in Lawrence. It was fantastic. My brush with literary greatness is narrowly avoiding running over William S Burroughs whle delivering pizza.
I think folks don't realize that from the cowboy days through the Depression, the widwest was dotted with hundreds of little land-grant agricultural schools and engineering colleges. You have to be pretty determined not to get an education in the widwest. It's a great place to be.
Quote from: GunslingerA number of people think Madison, WI is pretty similar to Berkeley Set.
Madison seemed to have sort of a Berkley vibe in spots when I was up there.
Quote from: BrantaiAlso, fair warning: they put bacon on fucking everything here.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!But bacon? Bacon comes from God's own butt.
Quote from: ReimdallBacon = Glory. Sorted.
*sigh*
Why does every thread on this site eventually turn into a discussion about swine.
Or in this case tasty swine based meat products. Perhaps there are fewer swine in the midwest because we've eaten so many of them 0_o
Quote from: chaosvoyager*sigh*
Why does every thread on this site eventually turn into a discussion about swine.
Or in this case tasty swine based meat products. Perhaps there are fewer swine in the midwest because we've eaten so many of them 0_o
Shut your piehole and get in the pan, Piggly!
Quote from: chaosvoyager*sigh*
Why does every thread on this site eventually turn into a discussion about swine.
Or in this case tasty swine based meat products. Perhaps there are fewer swine in the midwest because we've eaten so many of them 0_o
Would you prefer folks started talking about Bagels again? Omelettes maybe?
- Ed C.
Quote from: KoltarWould you prefer folks started talking about Bagels again? Omelettes maybe?
- Ed C.
Corn? Funnel cakes? Beef jerky?
...
...s'makin' me hungry.
Quote from: James J SkachNormal has a university...no? Isn't ISU in Bloomington/Normal?
Indeed it is.
And one other liberal arts college.
-Thornhammer
Thanks for all the answers. Cleared up some misconceptions I had.
Millikan University in Decatur probably played a major role in the development Judge's Guild. The first dungeon crawl crpg was written on a computer at the U of I, here in Champaign-Urbana. Locals here playtested both GDW and JG materials, sometimes at the annual convention.
You know, I just came back from the Corn Roast in Bonduel, Wisconsin...the 50th aniversary, no less. I have a buzz and am full of all the grilled corn on the cob I could eat. Seeing the whole town turn out to drink, eat corn, and polka dance is just something out of a bad movie Tomorrow I'll go 10 miles to hit the Hamburger fest in Seymour, home of the hamburger (for real!), and watch the Ketsup slide, and eat a chunk of a huge hamburger (not as big as the world record holder, which I was there to have a piece of).
I don't know what this has to do with anything...but right now it seems awful funny! While I was at the corn roast I saw a guy who stood up for my wedding. He was visiting from California (oranbge Co.) where he moved. All he kept talking about was California this, and California that...and all I could keep thinking was, "but you don't have a fucking corn roast...do you!?"
Yeah...Wisconsin, corn and RPGs!..and bear...and cheese...and serial killers, can't forget the serial killers!
That's another thing about the small-town Midwest. One of the reasons we are often so goddamned chunky is because during the fall and summer every little town has to have a festival, fair, street dance, settlers days, celebration, fest (quite different from a festival), and approximately 500 potlucks (one for each church in town) and 124 pancake breakfasts (one for each American Legion, Kiwanis, VFW, Moose Lodge, etc., in the town). Here, you often find incredibly fattening foods, foods that even if you saturated them in crisco for a year could not possibly be any worse for you. Anything can be deep fried, possibly even a deep fryer.
But man--the festivals with a certain food in their name--like the Apple/Popcorn Festival up my way, or the Strawberry Festival, or, since it's Indiana, one of 300 fests regarding corn or the harvest--you find some killer food there. You can ignore the carnies operating the rides, you can ignore that chick selling dreamcatchers in the booth over there, and you ignore the severely mulleted dude with his shirt off, tucked into the back of his rolled-up black jeans yelling at his possibly underage girlfriend--because goddammit, that was the best carmel apple you've ever had.
I love the midwest. Summer nights here, when there's a festival in town, the insects chirping, and the heat of the day fading to a pleasant warmth--I'm happy to be where I am.
The thing I miss most, living in Colorado, is katydids--cicadas. They're more midwest and south. The sound is summer.
Damn, I could go for some grilled corn . . .
I'm pretty sure Champions is Chicago.
Was White Wolf always Atlanta or did they start somewhere else?
The Midwest and South both had a lot of wargamers IIRC. Why did RPG do better with the Midwestern wargamers than the Southern ones?
These are all legitimate social scientific questions but I'm not sure there are answers.
Sett, if you have an email that can take a BIG file, send it to me. (Gmail will do.) I have a big article on early gaming that interviews Gygax, Stafford, Hargrave among others and sheds some light on the Midwest/West Coast thing.
Winter
There's one part of your answer.
Christ, I'm getting positively nostalgic here. I don't think I've ever had as much fun west of the rockies as I have when I'm more easterly. Hell, I was in Bismark last year. Pitchfork Barbeque! Never see that in Washington.
Hell, all the festival/carnivals here are anemic art fairs (well, the Sex Worker Art Show is a bit different....), and I never saw just how much naked greed went into the average Ren Faire until I went to the annual one out here.
I may just have to move back when I 'settle down'.
Yeah, you ain't lived until your five year old daughter says she wants to try mutton busting while you're at the county fair...
I see where people love the coasts - California with the amazing weather, New York being the center of the Universe. But I'll take the midwest (specfically for me the upper Midwest/Great Lakes region), thank you!
I'm in the midwest, Kansas City specifically, and I honestly could do without it. The streets are a maze and it's a pain to find anything. Also, I dunno about the legend of Midwest niceness, but I've yet to see much evidence of it here.
In the summer I broil. I don't know if it's proximity to the river or what, but it is humid here. I'm not a fan of the heat anyway, and the dampness makes it downright nasty. In the winter I freeze. There are like three total habitable months out of the year here.
Depending on how negotiations with the GF go, once I graduate I'll be out of here so fast, heads will spin.
So I didn't get much sleep lat night/this morning ....and this thread was on my kind. Then this song starts to invade my brain from the 80s or early 90s....
We can write for Tee Ess Ar ,
Drive a good used car...,
The MID - WEST
MId West ....
Make a brand new game..
Find our claim to fame...
MID - WEST
MID - WEST
MID WEST!!!
The winters are really cold
Look at the dice I just rolled..
MID - WEST !!
MID - WEST!!
Okay - so I'm not a song writer or even an average filker.
But you got the idea ... it would be to the tune of this Pet Shop Boys song that was done first by the Village People :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39KZ2afBtLU
- Ed C.
Yeah I know its a staple at Gay Dance clubs - so what.
Y'know, for all the bitching about the weather, Omaha was pretty good weather wise. Hot, occassionally 'too' dry summers, mild-ish winters with enough snow and cold for snowmen and sledding. My only peeve was the absolutely laughable 'mountain' that some fool actually tried to set up a 'ski resort' on. Profitable only because no one wanted to drive all the way to Colorado one assumes. In other wise it was a veritable garden spot. Of course, I rather like it warm.
Hell, it only ever rained at night most of my life. This daytime rain was traumatic to me, I don't know how people survive it :p
Of course, away from the river the rest of the state is flat flat flat... and empty.
Ok, thats it, I'm officially out of this thread before I boot the job and the life I have here and head home to settle down and raise linebackers.
On a tangent:
I once ate Corndogs in Dyess, Arkansas. That was, let me say, an experience.
Are Corndogs a Midwestern speciality or is it a Southern thing?
Its an American thing.
You just find them more often in the MidWest and the South. Something about having more farm country around.
- Ed C.
Corndogs are awesome. Sometimes I go to the fair just to get a bigass corndog with some mustard.
After getting a bad stomach after eating chilli-cheese-fries last week, I´m careful with any food that Jeff likes.
Quote from: SettembriniAfter getting a bad stomach after eating chilli-cheese-fries last week, I´m careful with any food that Jeff likes.
Just part of the experience, Sett, just part of the experience. The moth knows it will be burnt up, but still goes towards the glorious light of the bug zapper. :D
Man, a corn dog sounds really good right now. Lotta mustard.
Oh, man, btw, speaking of "fair food", I had a killer funnel cake last weekend. Amazingly enough, it was at the food booth of one of the local Pentecostal churches...
It is hot as shit here right now.
Quote from: BrantaiIt is hot as shit here right now.
Too right. I have no idea what the damned heat index is, only that it's 100 degrees F plus.
I'm staying inside and rolling twenties.
Mmmm . . . Chili Cheese Fries. Nature's most perfect food.
For me, the fair is all about the funnel cakes.
HOLY SMOKES!
I just understood gaming theory.
As I had American food on my mind when shopping at the grocery store, I headed for the Whitebread section, and then continued to the isle where they stack up all the breakfast spreads. I stood before the peanut butter, and made my choice: the one with chunky bits.
Then I saw some kind of Marshmallow cream, and I thought: "What the heck, whitebread, peanut butter, why not go totally bonkers and buy that junk food, too."
At home, I indulged in PB + Jostaberryjelly.
Then I looked at the Marshmallow cream. It looked like the natural thing to do, and actually it was recommended on the Marshmallow cream label: PB+Marshmallow cream.
I spread the two fluid candys on the toasted slice of bread, cut it in half, put one half on the other.
I took a bite.
I closed the two jars, and put them back on the cupboard, while munching away. Then I saw:
FLUFF & CRUNCH it said on the labels.
Amazing.
Now I understand.
Merely reading this makes me SICK.
I believe the name of that concoction is a Fluffernutter Set.
I had some Roggenbrot mit Schlackwurst together with a Bier afterwards.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityMerely reading this makes me SICK.
Which? The PBMC or Sett getting theory? :D
So Pierce, you don´t think Fluff & Crunch go together?
Not when it comes to food!
But I'm biased--I'm spending a fortune on groceries from Whole Foods and that Italian deli that makes its own pasta! Those olives they have, man... well, in a way olives are fluffy and crunchy also. :D
Well, now you really sounded middle-brow pretentious.
I´ll now resume my consumption of pickled garlic and olives pickled in garlic.
Pickled vegetables:
The gourmet´s Rules Cyclopedia!
Quote from: SettembriniWell, now you really sounded middle-brow pretentious.
I'm really not! I'm not a gourmet. Or rather I am, to a small degree, but only because I Just. Can't. Eat. That other stuff. It's not an act, it's a necessity!
I do miss Labskaus.
WotC, you can´t ban the fluff!
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=145813
"marshmallow spread"?
:barf:
No, it tastes like the entrails of a Negerkuß!
Sugar and egg white? Wasn't peanut butter bad enough?
(And it's "Schokokuss" right now. Don't be racist, Sett ;) )
Quote from: Sosthenes"marshmallow spread"?
Don't knock it till you've tried it.
With peanut butter.
They're called fluffernutters. Easily the fruitiest name I've heard in a long time, and also the reason why the midwest is, like, huge. In weight.
Quote from: Thanatos02also the reason why the midwest is, like, huge. In weight.
Now, now - don't denigrate flapjacks' contribution to our regional obesity.
edit: Also, once again, all the bacon.
Quote from: BrantaiNow, now - don't denigrate flapjacks' contribution to our regional obesity.
edit: Also, once again, all the bacon.
Y'know, since there is all this love for bacon in this thread I thought I'd point something out: Bacon really is from God's on butt. Jesus, you may recall the bearded gent who decided that dying for us was fun and profitable, is responsible for loosening the restrictions on diet, which is why Christians can eat Bacon and Jews cannot (and incidentally, Muslims, who don't think Jesus was speaking for God exactly....)
Praise Jesus and pass the bacon!
Quote from: Thanatos02Don't knock it till you've tried it.
With peanut butter.
They're called fluffernutters. Easily the fruitiest name I've heard in a long time, and also the reason why the midwest is, like, huge. In weight.
We also tend to deep-fry wholly inappropriate food items for consumption at fairs.
25 Fattest Cities in America, 2006: (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?id=16355)
25 FATTEST: 1. Chicago (5)
2. Las Vegas (9)
3. Los Angeles (21*)
4. Dallas (6)
5. Houston (1)
6. Memphis (4)
7. Long Beach, Calif. (20)
8. El Paso (11)
9. Kansas City, Mo. (18)
10. Mesa, Ariz. (15)
11. Indianapolis (13)
12. San Antonio (10)
13. Fort Worth (14)
14. Miami (19)
15. Detroit (3)
16. Columbus, Ohio (16)
17. Oklahoma City (21)
18. Cleveland (24*)
19. Wichita (17)
20. Charlotte (24)
21. San Diego (9*)
22. Fresno (14*)
23. Philadelphia (2)
24. San Jose, Calif. (17*)
25. New York (8)
We all know Milwaukee should be on that list.
EDIT: I agree--seriously, don't overlook bacon.
Quote from: Brantaiedit: Also, once again, all the bacon.
No fucking kidding. I was at the hospital for about 10 hours today (because of the girlfriend, she's ok for the most part though). Even though it was a hospital, the cafe was pretty good, except the girlfriend's mother ordered a BLT.
It came with 8 strips of real bacon. I'm not making this up. It was insane.
EDIT: She also ordered me a cup of 'espresso'. She doesn't know the difference between that and cappuccino, so she literally came back with a cup of 7 shots of espresso. I'm still up in the air on how I feel about that.
Quote from: SettembriniNo, it tastes like the entrails of a Negerkuß!
There is Négercsók in Germany? Foul! I thought it was an unique creation of socialist confectionery. :mad:
Also, I don't see what's racist about the name - at least in Hungary, "néger" is a pretty neutral term, and said sweets are pretty good, too... or were when I was eight or nine.
"Négercsók"? That's so... charming.
Almost as good as "Szepmuveszeti Museum." At least with all the accents and umlauts in the right place.
Fun fact of the day: the Hungarian language employs all sounds and umlauts used in M. A. R. Barker's Tsolyáni.
Quote from: MelanThere is Négercsók in Germany? Foul! I thought it was an unique creation of socialist confectionery. :mad:
If I'm not mistaken, it's of French origin, probably older than socialism itself (and will probably survive it by a few centuries, too).
Neat local tidbit: I've heard Austrians call it "Swedish Bomb" (I'm pretty sure about the Swedish part, less so about the bomb).
Quote from: MelanAlso, I don't see what's racist about the name - at least in Hungary, "néger" is a pretty neutral term, and said sweets are pretty good, too... or were when I was eight or nine.
Apart from the fact that I personally can't stand them: In ages past, they were called "Negerkuss" (negro kiss) or "Mohrenkopf" (moor's head). In this day of political correctness, it's now only called "Schokokuss" or something similar. It's rather unlikely that anyone was ever offended by that, but well...