if we look at history, the most popular game has always been D&D. ( tenically Vampire: The Masquerade was more popular one time but didnt last long). and pathfinder is D&D. but why? this is a phenomenon that only happens in the west. if we look at japan, this is a phenomenon that only happens in the west. if we look at japan Call of Cthulhu is the most popular system. I honesly dont know why.
also D&D was almost always is a monopoly. and honestly that's a pretty bad thing but the good thing is that's going to change. although the game to replace D&D is D&D (but not for Wizard of the coast). and a pathfinder is likely to occur again (but I dont know when).
the question is why D&D is and probably will be the most popular.(at least in the West)
Cultural differences, probably. And D&D really doesn't count as a monopoly just because it's the most successful.
Because D&D is a mash-up of our favorite stories and franchises. It's the good, the bad, and the ugly characters of Lord of the Rings roaming Middle Earth with a fistful of gold coins, bringing law and order to the western frontiers for a few gold coins more.
Quote from: Shteve on April 27, 2025, 08:52:39 AMCultural differences, probably. And D&D really doesn't count as a monopoly just because it's the most successful.
and what you count as a monopoly?
Quote from: antonioGUAK on April 27, 2025, 09:02:40 AMQuote from: Shteve on April 27, 2025, 08:52:39 AMCultural differences, probably. And D&D really doesn't count as a monopoly just because it's the most successful.
and what you count as a monopoly?
GOOGLE SAYS: "A monopoly is a market structure that consists of a single seller or producer and no close substitutes. A monopoly limits available alternatives for its product and creates barriers for competitors to enter the marketplace. Monopolies can lead to unfair consumer practices."Having a single dominant entity is NOT a monopoly. There are literally hundreds of competitors to D&D.
Possibly because in a niche hobby it was (arguably) the first RPG and gained enough money to keep pouring it into products and keep churning out products. If only Ken St. Andre had taken a more serious approach to Tunnels and Trolls or RuneQuest been a bit not so weird...
Part of it is huge name recognition. D&D was first on the scene, was mentioned in movies, got a bunch of parents concerned and thereby made the news several times etc. So it's the one RPG that virtually everyone has heard of, even if they don't know what it is.
I can't speak to "the West," but in America I think a lot of D&D's enduring popularity stems from the Satanic Panic. It gave the game a sense of the forbidden that was irresistible for a big part of its initial demographic: teenage boys. AD&D really leaned into that kind of edginess, if that's the right word, and became targeted by busybodies as a result. Apart from being first, I think this controversy helped establish D&D as the game to play. And once established, it became hard to dislodge. There likely are other reasons too, but I think this is a significant one.
I think to a large extent it's because they didn't know enough to outthink themselves, and all they were doing was just making something fun for themselves. It's not the money of being first. D&D's publishers have come close to running out of money several times, and did run out of money at least once. The commercial history of the West is strewn with companies that were first and still died.
As Corolinth wrote, D&D was a mashup of everything great for the time. If sharks with lasers had existed, there would be sharks with lasers in core OD&D. (We actually had rats with lasers in last night's game.) There was no sense of having to force something cool into the structure, because there was no structure.
As pretentious as it may sound, D&D was built on inspirations which themselves were quite grounded in the western traditions and those values.
You leave the western american/european sphere and D&D suddenly isn't as dominate. Call of Cthulhu is more popular in Japan and likely thanks to artists like Junji Ito, generally Japan has a very different relationship with Horror and Cosmicism than us.
You go to Eastern Europe and Warhammer and Vampire tend to beat out D&D in popularity, having read and enjoyed a lot of Russian and Polish literature, they have a much more grim perspective on the human condition than us.
Speaking of Call of Cthulhu: this is the only game that I have found people being really interested in playing in all three countries where I have lived: Norway, Canada, and USA.
I think D&D has publishing problems in the 90s that hurt it in Japan. But you can see D&D's influence in pretty much every fantasy IP in Japan. There were even games based on the completely fictitious gods in D&DG (Tower of Druaga for instance). Look at the monsters in JRPGs. So many from D&D and not mythology.
A lot of the reasons have already been mentioned. It's the combination of those factors and more besides. When something catches lightning in a bottle the way D&D did, it's always more than one thing.
In addition to being first, and fun, and a bunch of things that were central at the time, and a little edgy but not so much as to derail it, and being better put together than people give it credit for, there was also:
Timing. The launch of D&D straddled a change in the West, at a time when story-telling was still a thing at least in some places, when fantasy fiction was still growing and experimenting, and when being outside and doing stuff was still a thing for just about everyone. The backdrop of D&D was intelligible to the audience in a way that it isn't now. It wasn't exactly first hand, but stumbling through the woods on a quest just had a bit more reality to it then to the average person than it does today. So much of later D&D is called derivative, with some justice. It was less derivative then. It's not an accident that most of D&D's stumbles since have been when the game tried to adapt to a later audience and couldn't quite pull it off cleanly. Whereas where it has worked to pull in a later audience has been movement away from simultaneously being a grounded and gonzo thing to a mundane fantastical thing. Not coincidentally also losing other parts of the audience in the process.
Broad Strokes and Eschewing the Intellectual: Even the mistakes have been while pursuing light-weight stuff. Even the pretend intellectual parts are rounded off for drama. Of course, people can twist into all kind of shapes, but the base thing is easy to grasp.
As to always will be the most popular, only so long as it continues to do what made it popular in the first place. It can run on momentum and fumes for a good long while--maybe 10-20 years. However, when it drops the things that made it work, it's days are numbered.
Quote from: antonioGUAK on April 27, 2025, 08:16:31 AMif we look at japan Call of Cthulhu is the most popular system. I honesly dont know why.
Maybe a crossover/overlapping Venn diagram with the anime tentacle pron crowd? :)
When did role playing games hit Japan? And did one arrive first or did they all sort of hit at the same time?
D&D was first and most people think that gave them a huge advantage.
D&D is popular in the Anglosphere. It does have some traction in other markets and countries, that's about it. Go to Japan, its Call of Cthulu and Japanese girls playing it is the main RPG.
This is one of the reasons why I've lost interest in ttrpgs. The support for genres that aren't medieval fantasy or cthulhu suck ass. Every ttrpg I like has been canceled for years. The new output feels increasingly gray and lifeless. Designers can't build on anything that came before because of dumb copyright, so they keep scrapping the barrel to come up with new ideas. Gamers refuse to leave their comfort zones and cluster around games that date to 1980, even if they were born decades later because that's what the tribe demands. It's all so stupid.
I don't feel any sympathy for the damage caused by the tariffs. I think the entire industry needs to burn down so that something new and hopefully better can rise from the ashes.
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 27, 2025, 07:21:25 PMWhen did role playing games hit Japan? And did one arrive first or did they all sort of hit at the same time?
D&D was first and most people think that gave them a huge advantage.
First is never an automatic advantage. Look at all Corporate history.
I'd love to learn the Jap system WARPS (Play on GURPS) https://japanesetrpg.com/2021/07/17/warps-wild-adventure-role-playing-game/
Had tie-ins to Jap franchises I love.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on Today at 08:06:57 AMThis is one of the reasons why I've lost interest in ttrpgs. The support for genres that aren't medieval fantasy or cthulhu suck ass. Every ttrpg I like has been canceled for years. The new output feels increasingly gray and lifeless. Designers can't build on anything that came before because of dumb copyright, so they keep scrapping the barrel to come up with new ideas. Gamers refuse to leave their comfort zones and cluster around games that date to 1980, even if they were born decades later because that's what the tribe demands. It's all so stupid.
It's fucken stupid man. Culture ended in about 2000 imo. But yeah we need an RPG of the information war we are in now.
QuoteI don't feel any sympathy for the damage caused by the tariffs. I think the entire industry needs to burn down so that something new and hopefully better can rise from the ashes.
Burn it fucken down man, absolutely. Here in Aus-fucken-tralia I'm hoping the Commies get in again so we can go down the road of absolute destruction and then finally everyone will realise that we've been fucked over and will change things.
Quote from: Spooky on Today at 09:16:35 AMIt's fucken stupid man. Culture ended in about 2000 imo. But yeah we need an RPG of the information war we are in now.
For me it was about 2008 when the recession hit and WotC tried to kill the OGL with 4e's GSL. They threw a hissy fit about piracy and took down all their back catalog of PDFs. It took years before they relaxed and swathes of their back catalog were never restored. They refused to add their non-D&D IPs to the GM Vault license, which could've easily led to a minor renaissance for those IPs by allowing fans to update the settings to use D&D 5e or something, making them accessible to new audiences unfamiliar with the originals.
But no, WotC treats all their non-D&D IPs like red-headed stepchildren. They even treat D&D that way.
Quote from: Spooky on Today at 09:16:35 AMBurn it fucken down man, absolutely. Here in Aus-fucken-tralia I'm hoping the Commies get in again so we can go down the road of absolute destruction and then finally everyone will realise that we've been fucked over and will change things.
It does seem to be happening in small fits and starts. If the almost blank schedule is any indication, it seems that Paradox has finally canceled World of Darkness. It's about time, really. The IP has been somehow limping along for decades after it ran out of steam in the late 90s/early 2000s. Hopefully this will inspire more indie devs to make their own urban fantasy games, now that they no longer have competition from a big publisher with an IP established decades prior. Hopefully.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on Today at 10:34:35 AMFor me it was about 2008 when the recession hit and WotC tried to kill the OGL with 4e's GSL. They threw a hissy fit about piracy and took down all their back catalog of PDFs. It took years before they relaxed and swathes of their back catalog were never restored. They refused to add their non-D&D IPs to the GM Vault license, which could've easily led to a minor renaissance for those IPs by allowing fans to update the settings to use D&D 5e or something, making them accessible to new audiences unfamiliar with the originals.
But no, WotC treats all their non-D&D IPs like red-headed stepchildren. They even treat D&D that way.
That's all great, man and all seems legit. But, you are too micro compared to my arguments.
QuoteIt does seem to be happening in small fits and starts. If the almost blank schedule is any indication, it seems that Paradox has finally canceled World of Darkness. It's about time, really. The IP has been somehow limping along for decades after it ran out of steam in the late 90s/early 2000s. Hopefully this will inspire more indie devs to make their own urban fantasy games, now that they no longer have competition from a big publisher with an IP established decades prior. Hopefully.
Micro. Focused on your specific preferred systems. I guess I'm more of a macro/basic worldview kinda dude.
Quote from: Spooky on Today at 11:40:25 AMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on Today at 10:34:35 AMFor me it was about 2008 when the recession hit and WotC tried to kill the OGL with 4e's GSL. They threw a hissy fit about piracy and took down all their back catalog of PDFs. It took years before they relaxed and swathes of their back catalog were never restored. They refused to add their non-D&D IPs to the GM Vault license, which could've easily led to a minor renaissance for those IPs by allowing fans to update the settings to use D&D 5e or something, making them accessible to new audiences unfamiliar with the originals.
But no, WotC treats all their non-D&D IPs like red-headed stepchildren. They even treat D&D that way.
That's all great, man and all seems legit. But, you are too micro compared to my arguments.
QuoteIt does seem to be happening in small fits and starts. If the almost blank schedule is any indication, it seems that Paradox has finally canceled World of Darkness. It's about time, really. The IP has been somehow limping along for decades after it ran out of steam in the late 90s/early 2000s. Hopefully this will inspire more indie devs to make their own urban fantasy games, now that they no longer have competition from a big publisher with an IP established decades prior. Hopefully.
Micro. Focused on your specific preferred systems. I guess I'm more of a macro/basic worldview kinda dude.
It's Box. This is what he does. Blame IP law for why no one wants to play what he wants and would rather complain again and again for probably close to a decade now about how no one will do anything in certain genres while ignoring that massive amounts actually have been done, just in generic systems like SWADE, FATE, PbtA, etc.
90% of the settings/genres he laments about nothing being done with are just "modern world but [insert singular fictional element here]" and you don't need bespoke systems for that. A generic modern system with a plug-in for the one weird thing does the same thing and can be sold to a much broader audience.I
He just complains because they aren't doing it in the precise way he wants it done... bespoke systems and support dedicated to each small niche he enjoys.I
"Why wouldn't people play FEED? Now its dead," he'd lament... ignoring that you could run the same genre with better designed rules right out of the core SWADE book (also because Feed read like some guy's effort to deal with his real life addiction problem and wanting people to wallow in feelings of addiction with him... Every example scenario was just "what horrible things will you do to satisfy your addiction and how does it make you feel to do those things?").
Solutions have been offered to him repeatedly... he'd rather just complain.
Cool man. I think I'm in a real life American ideology debate. I love real Americans. I'm just gonna sit back n absorb the Americanneess...so fuck'n cool..
Quote from: Spooky on Today at 11:40:25 AMThat's all great, man and all seems legit. But, you are too micro compared to my arguments.
I guess. There's lots of other genres and settings I like, and countless more I'm unaware of.
Quote from: Chris24601 on Today at 12:34:28 PMignoring that massive amounts actually have been done, just in generic systems like SWADE, FATE, PbtA, etc.
I checked all of those out and they didn't interest me. They don't do what I want, so there's no point in buying them.
Quote from: Chris24601 on Today at 12:34:28 PMyou don't need bespoke systems for that.
I never said you did.
Quote from: Chris24601 on Today at 12:34:28 PM"Why wouldn't people play FEED? Now its dead," he'd lament... ignoring that you could run the same genre with better designed rules right out of the core SWADE book
Prove it.
One of the reasons I like Feed isn't just because it's a universal rpg for playing vampires. Vampire City does that too. No, the other reason is because of its degeneration mechanic. This isn't a mechanic you can replicate in SWADE. City of Mists, maybe, but not SWADE.
Quote from: Chris24601 on Today at 12:34:28 PMSolutions have been offered to him repeatedly... he'd rather just complain.
No, solutions haven't been offered to me. None of the games I was told to play instead actually do what I want. I'm always sent back to square one: if I want a game that does what I want, then I'd have to make it myself. Even if used an existing system, I'd still have to do all the setting work myself. There's no point.