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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM

Title: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM
The tactical, operational, and strategic aspects of old-school style gaming is both a personal taste and a skill.  Some people have no taste for it.  Some have no skill for it.  Some are fine with it, but not "today, in this game".  So accept that running in that style automatically excludes some from your pool of potential players for any given game--including a host of perfectly fine, reasonable people with whom you might enjoy playing a different style game some other time.

Maturity in dealing with losing a character is all over the map.  It's always been this way.  At the very least, though, there should be a firm set of expectations established.  Even people that can laugh off losing a character don't want to be blindsided in a game billed as a lark.  You put a different slant on the character when they might croak any time.

Maturity in dealing with other people having fun playing a pretend elf different than you has generally gotten worse.  People have always argued about it, but there are more people than ever where their own self image is contradicted if someone else is having fun in a way that they think is impossible.  Maybe it is just the internet that lets us see how bad it always was, but in any case it is worse in the sense of being more in our faces. 

Finally, the subset of people that are out to control others don't really see any difference between pretend elves and more serious subjects.  For them, it's all grist for the mill, or at least practice.  What was said of the puritans is entirely true of them--horrified at the thought that out there somewhere people were having fun in a way they don't like.  To such people, you are either an infidel or a heretic (depending on their dogma and their "understanding" of their own dogma).  They are really worried that someone might try what you are talking about and discover that they do have a taste and skill and even interest in playing an old-school style game.   Or maybe someone merely might have enough interest in seeing if they have the taste and want to acquire the skill. 

Notice that the two previous paragraphs are about very different motivations, though some particularly nasty people have both. 

Most of my players in old-school style games had neither taste nor skill when we started, but were at least willing to give it a shot. And you don't have to have a whole table full of those with the skills as long as least a couple of players are trying to develop it and the others will sort of listen to them sometimes. 

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2021, 09:18:02 AM
Also, in passing and related to this topic:  I've generally found it easier to find friends that I like and turn them into gamers that enjoy the kind of game that I want to run, than to find gamers and turn them into friends.  You just have to be willing to teach the game and deal with the learning curve while accepting that not all of your friends will care for it.  Along the way, you'll occasionally run into like-minded people who are already gamers and will fit in, but it is a lot easier to find them if you have an established, working game running already.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 09:32:59 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2021, 09:18:02 AM
Also, in passing and related to this topic:  I've generally found it easier to find friends that I like and turn them into gamers that enjoy the kind of game that I want to run, than to find gamers and turn them into friends.  You just have to be willing to teach the game and deal with the learning curve while accepting that not all of your friends will care for it.  Along the way, you'll occasionally run into like-minded people who are already gamers and will fit in, but it is a lot easier to find them if you have an established, working game running already.

Ah, see this is my first issue. I don't have any "like minded friends". I have some RPG friends, people who I've met whilst playing RPGs at my LGS but they don't really interact with me in a meaningful way beyond that despite my best efforts. And they all seem afraid of any RPG that wasn't played by a group of e-celebs. I'm mostly at the mercy of PUGs and online games. My LGS is just a hive of bad habits I don't agree with and no one there was interested in anything other than 5e. I'm very lucky in that I found one group who seem willing to try Lamentations of the Flame Princess based solely on the fact the book had nice art that drew them in. That's the sort of person I have to work with or I just get no games at all.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Torque2100 on August 25, 2021, 10:42:27 AM
I am planning to run some of the World of the Lost Lands adventures by Frog God Games using OSE once my current Cyberpunk RED game concludes.  As someone who recently started getting into the OSR, my experience with it has been that most RPG gamers aren't aware of it.  The response to it has been neutral to positive.  Many people are curious about what the early editions of DnD were like so the "blast from the past" has a certain appeal.

I have gotten a little static from people who started researching the OSR and quickly ran across the work of James Raggi and Venger Satanis.  They don't exactly paint the movement in the best light, but with Swords and Wizardry and Old School Essentials coming into prominence we have better examples to point newcomers towards.

Online you will run into a certain subset of bitter ex OSR fans.  These people seem to feel burned by the movement in one way or another so they have decided that "the OSR is dead" and have made in their personal crusade to dissuade as many people from looking into the OSR as possible.  It's from these types that you get "The OSR died with Google+," "the OSR is full of bigots and jerks," "the OSR is old, bitter grognards" posts on social media.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/d3/ee/3fd3ee1fb729fc4eaa1ed06ac7a363b2.jpg)

(https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/images/Strixhaven%20Party%20Exam.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
The problem is not the OSR.

It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.

Try to say 4e is better than 5e and vice-versa, and I'll sure you''l get lots of people complaining either way. and neither is OSR.

Also, the OSR is not a single thing, and I see a chasm between the "everything goes" of OD&D and the "play it this way or else!" in AD&D.

And as always everything is full of misconceptions (for example, fighting 4 goblins at level 1 might be slightly harder in 5e than AD&D - IIRC, but people would think it is the opposite).
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: FingerRod on August 25, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
People triggered by the OSR were waiting for their next thing to be triggered by, particularly in those mediums you identified. I don't think there is anything specific to the OSR, they are just unhappy fucks looking for their next outrage opportunity.

As for your situation, I am sort of there now. I play in a 5e group with a DM who I KNOW will not kill my character no matter what I do. I won't disrupt the game for others by intentionally pushing him, but my wife and friend who are also in the game chuckle about it with me weekly. I could list the ways he does this, but we have all seen it.

His style is not the game I run. In my friends and family game, I run one close to what you are describing. I told them the type of game I enjoy offering, which makes me more effective. I know they will have more fun because I am more effective.

Back to that first group. The DM has asked me to run a mid-campaign one-shot/mini-series. I explained this same thing to the group, and they have all said they are excited. So perhaps something like that could be your opportunity.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Melan on August 25, 2021, 01:42:32 PM
It is quite an old thing by now - 18-20 years or so. Old-school gaming draws reflexive dismissal and hostility because it challenges the central idea of the game industry - that game design progresses and gets better with time. Accordingly, if you play a game from the 1990s, you are playing a better game than the people who play a game from the 1980s, and if you play a game from the 2010s, you are playing a better game than those 1990s troglodytes (even if they were, say, White Wolf fans looking down on AD&Ders).

For a long time, "AD&D" (and it was specifically AD&D) was dismissed as an outdated game for children and people who did not know better. It had no prestige in the hobby mainstream. Then all of a sudden, a bunch of people appeared claiming that it was not only legit, it was actually a very well made "evergreen" system, and had much to offer that modern games could not.

By merely existing, old-school gaming challenges some peoples' self-image as smarter, more discerning, modern gamers. It causes no small amount of cognitive dissonance, hence the furore.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jaeger on August 25, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
...
It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.
...

This is huge...

People also seem to take critiques of something they like as a personal insult.

I have literally seen the following on other forums: "You said that game X was stupid. Well, I like game X, so you're saying I must be stupid!"

There is also the subset that can't let anything go - Even if you say: "Hey lets agree to disagre then..." They still have to get in the last word on why you are wrong.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 25, 2021, 02:17:01 PM
Why must people argue about everything in life?

I've gone around the world, digging into D&D 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, 5e, PF 1e, PF 2e play test, Dungeon World, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Lion & Dragon; only to realize that I'd rather play a reorganization of the Original pre-1e D&D "White Box" ruleset, with the additions of Ascending AC and a Single Saving Throw.  A $5 softcover ruleset on Amazon; "White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game".

I have a huge library of books, but I can run a whole game out of a $5 book and my imagination.  That, is the beauty of the OSR.

I don't feel the need to criticize the rest of the OSR / RPG market.  Let people design what they want, buy what they want, and play what they want.  Freedom!!!
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 25, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
...
It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.
...

This is huge...

People also seem to take critiques of something they like as a personal insult.

I have literally seen the following on other forums: "You said that game X was stupid. Well, I like game X, so you're saying I must be stupid!"

There is also the subset that can't let anything go - Even if you say: "Hey lets agree to disagre then..." They still have to get in the last word on why you are wrong.

This is I think the heart of the problems I've faced. All these people have incorporated 5E and the consensus around 5E into their IRL identity. It goes hand in hand with this very SJW idea of characters just being a representation of themselves and the world as they want it to be. Fiction itself exists to service their ego. When they get some bad rolls and die in a humiliating fashion I might as well be pushing them into the spike pit myself. I am denying them the epic adventure they saw on Critical Role. I am denying them the epic story in their head. They don't understand that DnD is fundamentally a game of chance, and when you take that away it ceases to be a game. And your victories are just hollow. You didn't kill the dragon. I fudged the rolls to give you godmode and noclip and you cheated. Because if I did anything less I'd get cancelled. You didn't struggle or sacrifice with the constant risk of a grizzly end that you fought through with grit, wit and luck. Marveling that you finally beat that dragon after several challenges and armed with a story to tell others.  I just led you by the nose through my fantasy novel. Participants optional. When I say

"You do you. But I prefer the old school mentality. No hard feelings, I'm not going to tell you how to run your game I just don't want to participate, thank you very much."

I am somehow degrading them as a person even though I've taken great care to be as polite as possible in explaining why I'm not into that sort of thing. It's a very narcissistic mentality to see someone disagreeing with the way you have fun and demanding they stop having it or somehow denigrating them and their fun.

Now to be fair, I will when proded start taking the piss out of Critical Role kids, 5e and the like. If I'm being honest, Matt Mercer's way of DnD that has become the consensus is as close to a WRONG way to "play" DnD as there can be. Sometimes at my most autistic I want to shout that from a rooftop. But I do understand that those people are having fun in their paddling pool. So when asked I mostly keep my opinion on it to myself because I don't want to make someone else feel shitty just for disagreeing with me.  I just wish they could give me the same courtesy or at least keep an open mind and try something different that maybe doesn't just exist to become a scripted reality television show. 

"Matt Mercer said everyone plays DnD in their own way"

Up until I play it in a way certain people don't like. Such as even mentioning the OSR. Then I'm just being a gatekeeping grognard who needs to stop being so heckin mean.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: markmohrfield on August 25, 2021, 02:36:21 PM
I doubt that OSR triggers people any more or any less than any other form of rpg. Some people like a thing. Others don't. It's more likely that you notice the occasions when others dislike the things you like than the occasions when they dislike the things you dislike. Such is life, especially on the internet.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Krugus on August 25, 2021, 02:41:20 PM
Critical Role? 

That show that puts me to sleep whenever I tried to watch it?

That Critical Role?



Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Torque2100 on August 25, 2021, 02:46:20 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 25, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
...
It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.
...

This is huge...

People also seem to take critiques of something they like as a personal insult.

I have literally seen the following on other forums: "You said that game X was stupid. Well, I like game X, so you're saying I must be stupid!"

There is also the subset that can't let anything go - Even if you say: "Hey lets agree to disagre then..." They still have to get in the last word on why you are wrong.


Many people adopt this attitude as a defensive measure because it's become fashionable to weaponize criticism of  [Thing] to lob veiled insults and feel morally/intellectually superior to [People who like Thing].

"Oh, you like X do you?   X is Problematic. Only Corpo apologists/Nazis/Misogynists like X!"
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 25, 2021, 02:52:15 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 25, 2021, 02:17:01 PM
Why must people argue about everything in life?

I've gone around the world, digging into D&D 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, 5e, PF 1e, PF 2e play test, Dungeon World, Dungeon Crawl Classics, and Lion & Dragon; only to realize that I'd rather play a reorganization of the Original pre-1e D&D "White Box" ruleset, with the additions of Ascending AC and a Single Saving Throw.  A $5 softcover ruleset on Amazon; "White Box Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game".

I have a huge library of books, but I can run a whole game out of a $5 book and my imagination.  That, is the beauty of the OSR.

I don't feel the need to criticize the rest of the OSR / RPG market.  Let people design what they want, buy what they want, and play what they want.  Freedom!!!

  Honestly, I think people (humans) have a need for challenge and conflict.  The vast majority of the population has been wrapped in bubble wrap for too much of their lives, so lots of that seeking conflict comes out in pointless arguments and disagreements that they take as personal.  Maybe it is something else, but I honestly feel it is sort of a spoiled, first world problem.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Lunamancer on August 25, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
I can speak to my observations.

1) I don't think most RPG arguments actually are rooted in a difference of opinion. It's rooted in the persons involved. It's not necessarily personal; one or both people might just be assholes.
2) Sadly, bad people will often invoke terms like "story" or "fun" in order to exercise control over the game.
2a) Any conscious action necessarily fills the requirements of what makes a story; humans process experiences in the form of stories; there isn't much you can do that won't be a story.
2b) Fun is a mission, not a method. If someone says "don't play that way, it's supposed to be fun, so play my way" is probably more interested in controlling the game than having fun with it.
3) What gamers say they want often differs from what gamers actually want.
4) If you're not having fun, you're playing wrong.
4a) That means that, yes, there actually is such a thing as playing wrong.
4b) He who complains is likely not having fun and is usually the one who is playing wrong.
5) OSR is just one of those things that can be invoked as a bogie man by all manner of self-deceptive unfun gamers.
6) If you're surrounded by problem players, you're the problem. Whether that's because you choose poorly when it comes to friends, gamers, or online fora (Reddit is a red flag btw), or if it's actually you who are the asshole, the good news is that you can fix it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 04:36:26 PM
Quote from: Lunamancer on August 25, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
I can speak to my observations.

1) I don't think most RPG arguments actually are rooted in a difference of opinion. It's rooted in the persons involved. It's not necessarily personal; one or both people might just be assholes.
2) Sadly, bad people will often invoke terms like "story" or "fun" in order to exercise control over the game.
2a) Any conscious action necessarily fills the requirements of what makes a story; humans process experiences in the form of stories; there isn't much you can do that won't be a story.
2b) Fun is a mission, not a method. If someone says "don't play that way, it's supposed to be fun, so play my way" is probably more interested in controlling the game than having fun with it.
3) What gamers say they want often differs from what gamers actually want.
4) If you're not having fun, you're playing wrong.
4a) That means that, yes, there actually is such a thing as playing wrong.
4b) He who complains is likely not having fun and is usually the one who is playing wrong.
5) OSR is just one of those things that can be invoked as a bogie man by all manner of self-deceptive unfun gamers.
6) If you're surrounded by problem players, you're the problem. Whether that's because you choose poorly when it comes to friends, gamers, or online fora (Reddit is a red flag btw), or if it's actually you who are the asshole, the good news is that you can fix it.

Okay I don't want to make this a personal analysis of me but I'm a little bothered by some of your assertions here. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself properly. I'd love to find a group of friends who share my interests. But the reality is my interests are niche, and no one cares. And that's okay because I have actually found a group. They seem okay with me. And seem okay themselves. A lot of these points are made under several assumptions

1)the people you are gaming with are rational and self aware. This is not true for RPG gamers. We've all experienced That Guy, some massive autist who couldn't keep his mouth shut. I was that autist in my younger years. Nowadays I'm accused of being too quiet because I'm afraid to come off as obnoxious.
2)you have a decentralized community meaning that if one way of doing things you don't like wins out you can just move another community without issue. I have never lived anywhere with any more than 1 LGS. Usually 0 tbh. Everyone goes to the ONE place. And it becomes impossible to find games that aren't related to that one place. Maybe that's a big city american thing where you have multiple shops but we're lucky to have one per county in my country.  Sometimes it's just a choice of putting up with the bullshit or no games.
3) the community isn't obnoxiously pozzed to the point navigating the community becomes more work than fun and not worth the effort.

If you're really bothered that I mentioned Reddit I was just being general. I don't like Reddit all that much. Also I hate this assertion that "if everyone is an asshole you're the asshole" That's full on "no the children are wrong." There are some massively toxic communities out there. I used to be part of the Goth community of my area. Everyone did massively messed up things to one another and I left because I couldn't condone it. Does that make me an asshole because even though I didn't agree with them and I left they were all assholes so I must be the real one because everyone was an asshole? All because I didn't want to kick people's head in with metal plated New Rock boots? It doesn't make sense. I am not saying I am a saint. Because I'm not. But I wanted to vent about my frustrations with mentioning the OSR at all. I don't go into a frothing rage when someone mentions 5e. Which i did mention. I will respect other's opinions so long as they respect mine. But when they ask why I don't like their stuff I will answer.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Aglondir on August 25, 2021, 05:18:58 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
A few pictures say it best
Awesome post.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 25, 2021, 06:01:03 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/d3/ee/3fd3ee1fb729fc4eaa1ed06ac7a363b2.jpg)

(https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/images/Strixhaven%20Party%20Exam.jpg)


Is that the mythical wheelchair of diversity, inclusivity, and free ice cream?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 25, 2021, 06:43:55 PM
Rulings Not Rules can be used to quash player agency.  If the rules say something is supported and a player wants to play that thing, some people dislike that.  Usually it's just a difference of expectations - some people get upset if you play a robot-man in what they think is a gritty-Middle-Earth simulation.  Rather than address differences and work toward a constructive solution, it's easier for some people to claim some vision of perfection from a past age before these options existed and argue that everyone else is doing it wrong. 

Of course, from the other side some people abuse rules that they don't understand to not only ruin the game, but their own fun, too.  Once again, this usually ends up being a failure to match expectations. 

I played D&D in the mid-80s.  Most of the type of people who are OSR players now had a Trapper Keeper with house-rules that they used pretty consistently.  Even when things weren't written down if you played with the same group for a while you'd expect in a similar situation for the same type of request - roll a Dex check, or roll a save versus paralysis - most people prefer to know how things work and even 'rulings not rules' folks tend toward consistency. 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on August 25, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
They don't understand that DnD is fundamentally a game of chance, and when you take that away it ceases to be a game. And your victories are just hollow. You didn't kill the dragon. I fudged the rolls to give you godmode and noclip and you cheated.

I think there's a fundamental disconnect between saying in the original post that it's just your preference -- and how in your later post you say that other people aren't playing a game, their victories are hollow, and they're cheating.

If you just expressed the first one and people irrationally reacted against it, then I'm with you. But if you told people that they were doing it wrong and cheating, then I can understand them pushing back against what you said.

From my view, it's just a preference. I'm fine with OSR, but I'm also fine with any other RPG style. As long as people are playing from the same understanding with each other, then they're not cheating - they're just playing differently. From my view, preferring one style of RPG or another isn't proof of any real-world virtue or accomplishment. No one is slaying real dragons - we're all just playing make-believe.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 07:58:40 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 25, 2021, 06:43:55 PM
Rulings Not Rules can be used to quash player agency.  If the rules say something is supported and a player wants to play that thing, some people dislike that.  Usually it's just a difference of expectations - some people get upset if you play a robot-man in what they think is a gritty-Middle-Earth simulation.  Rather than address differences and work toward a constructive solution, it's easier for some people to claim some vision of perfection from a past age before these options existed and argue that everyone else is doing it wrong. 

Of course, from the other side some people abuse rules that they don't understand to not only ruin the game, but their own fun, too.  Once again, this usually ends up being a failure to match expectations. 

I played D&D in the mid-80s.  Most of the type of people who are OSR players now had a Trapper Keeper with house-rules that they used pretty consistently.  Even when things weren't written down if you played with the same group for a while you'd expect in a similar situation for the same type of request - roll a Dex check, or roll a save versus paralysis - most people prefer to know how things work and even 'rulings not rules' folks tend toward consistency.


I think ultimately OSR is a mindset. As a DM, when the situation comes, will you resort to the guide/handbook, or will you make a reasonable, sensible ruling on the spot? Can characters be eliminated in the first session or are they given some sort of guarantee of fairness? Are characters expected to end up being legendary or simply very competent at what they do? Are you a sandboxer or do you prefer a more storytelling approach? Will you write complex backstories or will you come up with a basic concept which can develop and gain dimension as you go? Are we playing a tabletop videogame, or can I throw sand at my enemies' eyes?

Having said that, I concede that although I prefer OSR, I get why people would want to avoid the frustration of losing a beloved character, play a story or demand a certain degree of fairness. Some don't know anything other than Critical Role and "le funny anime memes xDD :V uwu"; Can we blame them for playing loli rogues that seduce older men, "pervert XD" bards or warlocks that make derisive comments about religion? Can we blame them for wanting to have their character be the protagonist, with a complex backstory, nuance, dimension, goals, hopes and fears, quirks, beliefs and a catchphrase which will end up being irrelevant once the game starts? If you go on reddit, that's all you get. That is the official advice you're given on how to be a good player. That and, of course, consent, session zero, stating your pronouns and triggers and other such BULLSHIT nobody thought was necessary because we have some degree of social intelligence.

To me, old school is also about sword and sorcery over "high" fantasy. It's about playing in grittier settings in which you're not constantly surrounded by orcs, dwarves and elves who live alongside humans. I think it's a key flavor element that distinguishes players; if they want to play aasimar, ninja turtles, genasi, pandaren or other such races, they're not the same as the party that plays humans (or mostly human, in some cases).

This is what led me to the Pundit. I was checking  out a formidable Spanish RPG called "Aquelarre" (Coven). It takes place in medieval Spain; basically Call of Cthulhu but medieval catholic. It made me realize so-called "medieval fantasy" was actually a kitchen sink of different elements; medieval castles, renaissance towns, 18th century ships and 20th century values. There was nothing medieval about Warcraft or D&D. Eventually I found out about Lion & Dragon and Dark Albion and what caught my attention was that we had an OSR gamer who saw the same things I was seeing and wasn't oblivious or silent about cultural marxism.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 25, 2021, 05:18:58 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
A few pictures say it best
Awesome post.

Thanks, here's more!

(https://files.catbox.moe/jyow6o.jpg)

(https://files.catbox.moe/b1zboo.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jeff37923 on August 25, 2021, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.

"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story." - Gaming Mantra of jeff37923

I like the OSR when it harkens back to simpler rules that are elegant and can be extrapolated into the complex, when there is a DIY kind of aesthetic, and when it is open and inviting to all (except assholes).

I don't like the OSR when it is exclusionary (you either play this way with only these rules or you are not a True Gamer), when it is used as an advertising gimmick (our new Podcast is All OSR All The Time, so listen to us and support our Patreon), or is being deliberately uninviting (none of that anime shit in MY OSR, even though Record of Lodoss War was famously the creator's B/X D&D game).

Now note that while SJWs share a lot of behaviors with the OSR which I dislike, I have not seen my disliked OSR try to character assassin someone they disagree with or try to cause them to lose their business income.

I'd like to see more open and inviting OSR than closed OSR, but a lot of the petty arguing that turns newbies off of the OSR seems to happen online and not in reality. When it does happen in reality, the behavior gets lumped in with SJWs attacking everything that they think is not woke enough.

Why does the OSR trigger people? I dunno. I do know that I wish a lot of them would calm the fuck down because it turns potential players off.

Games are supposed to be fun.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Khazav on August 25, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
I don't understand the complaints about the second picture in both of the posts. Sure it's not my style but why do you think 'fantasy' ends with humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings? It could be said that people who don't like the new style aren't creative or imaginative enough to imagine owlpeople or wheelchairs. What's the point of limiting the imagination as long as it still results in an enjoyable game for some groups?

But I think you answered your own question in the original post when you mentioned death from an unlucky roll. People have to find the time and friends and group and get to where they are playing and buy snacks and drinks, pay a babysitter, buy the books and dice, etc and don't want to go through all that just to have their fun quashed by a bad roll of the dice. Who cares? They have their priorities and style and you have yours; why waste time worrying about it?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 25, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
They don't understand that DnD is fundamentally a game of chance, and when you take that away it ceases to be a game. And your victories are just hollow. You didn't kill the dragon. I fudged the rolls to give you godmode and noclip and you cheated.

I think there's a fundamental disconnect between saying in the original post that it's just your preference -- and how in your later post you say that other people aren't playing a game, their victories are hollow, and they're cheating.

If you just expressed the first one and people irrationally reacted against it, then I'm with you. But if you told people that they were doing it wrong and cheating, then I can understand them pushing back against what you said.

From my view, it's just a preference. I'm fine with OSR, but I'm also fine with any other RPG style. As long as people are playing from the same understanding with each other, then they're not cheating - they're just playing differently. From my view, preferring one style of RPG or another isn't proof of any real-world virtue or accomplishment. No one is slaying real dragons - we're all just playing make-believe.

I am liberal when it comes to interpreting DnD rules. I'm not full on worshiping the bible of Gygax like some OSR people are but I gave my opinion of why I find the storygaming and critical role to be the wrong way to play. It's as close as I will ever get to saying such a thing. But only because it is the wrong way. In the same way bringing hockey sticks to a football game is wrong. And then arguing that you can play football anyway you want because some guy on you tube said so.  Feel free to disagree. But if you aren't engaging with the game beyond seeing it as a storytelling exercise for your own vanity I have every right to tell anyone doing that in my games that they are in fact doing it wrong. But that's in my games. I wouldn't say it in their games. But I wouldn't even join their games because we'd both be miserable with each other.  I ask very little of my players. I don't want them to feel shitty as to their interpretation of the rules over mine. But b/x says the Referee is the final arbiter of the rules. Which 5E doesn't say.  I ask nicely that my players not argue with this and I explain as clearly as I can my interpretations and house rules so everyone is on the same page.  If they are engaging in the game. That's all I ask for and want in my games. Participate and engage with the GAME and not the weird self insert fan fiction you want the game to be. The OSR in all it's permutations encourages that. I like it. Others really don't and as it's hard to find others who like OSR as I do that is really starting to bother me.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:26:46 PM
Quote from: Khazav on August 25, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
I don't understand the complaints about the second picture in both of the posts. Sure it's not my style but why do you think 'fantasy' ends with humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings? It could be said that people who don't like the new style aren't creative or imaginative enough to imagine owlpeople or wheelchairs. What's the point of limiting the imagination as long as it still results in an enjoyable game for some groups?

But I think you answered your own question in the original post when you mentioned death from an unlucky roll. People have to find the time and friends and group and get to where they are playing and buy snacks and drinks, pay a babysitter, buy the books and dice, etc and don't want to go through all that just to have their fun quashed by a bad roll of the dice. Who cares? They have their priorities and style and you have yours; why waste time worrying about it?

The difference in the art imo is quality. The second piece of art looks like absolute shit. An adventurer in a wheelchair is dumb. It doesn't add anything to the game. It's not like a cool wheelchair with cool weapons. It's pointless woke virtue signaling.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2021, 08:29:21 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 07:58:40 PM
(https://files.catbox.moe/b1zboo.jpg)
Does she have a blase sheep as a hammer?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jaeger on August 25, 2021, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 04:36:26 PM
...
I have never lived anywhere with any more than 1 LGS. Usually 0 tbh. Everyone goes to the ONE place. And it becomes impossible to find games that aren't related to that one place. Maybe that's a big city american thing where you have multiple shops but we're lucky to have one per county in my country.  Sometimes it's just a choice of putting up with the bullshit or no games.
...

Wow, I don't know where you live – but I found my current group without ever going near a game store. There are no internet sites that serve as an RPG bulletin board for the area?

Of course even in the US it seems that some regions are just RPG terra incognita...


Quote from: Khazav on August 25, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
I don't understand the complaints about the second picture in both of the posts. Sure it's not my style but why do you think 'fantasy' ends with humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings? It could be said that people who don't like the new style aren't creative or imaginative enough to imagine owl-people or wheelchairs. What's the point of limiting the imagination as long as it still results in an enjoyable game for some groups?

It's the other way around actually.

The people that actually like the new style are the ones that aren't creative or imaginative enough to engage in compelling role play without the crutch of the furry mask to give themselves some sort of in-game identity outside of their own persona.

Physical appearance/attributes = who they are.

They are incapable of taking a standard human fighter and role paying that character as someone that is not them.

They hide behind the furry mask so that they can say: "Look at me I'm an oh-so-random Tiefling druid warlock!" So that they can pretend that they are not playing a mary-sue extension of themselves.

The "new style" mentality of the character being as extension of the player's ego is one of the reason's things like Charm, Sleep, and character death have become "uncool" and "Not fun."

They take in-game harm on their characters = emotional harm to themselves. They seem to lack the emotional maturity and tools to separate pretend consequences from real emotional ones.

So they rally and push to have those aspects of the game nerfed. Yet along with those "uncool" nerfed aspects of play we are also seeing the increased rise of RPG "Safety tools". I posit that these two aspects of "new school" RPG gaming are not unrelated...



Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:22:18 PM
...But if you aren't engaging with the game beyond seeing it as a storytelling exercise for your own vanity I have every right to tell anyone doing that in my games that they are in fact doing it wrong. ...Participate and engage with the GAME and not the weird self insert fan fiction you want the game to be. ...

It is possible to play RPG's wrong. 100%.

I'm not saying that they are not having fun playing RPG's wrong – they certainly seem to be.

But that does not change the fact that they are doing it wrong.


Quote from: Pat on August 25, 2021, 08:29:21 PM
Does she have a blase sheep as a hammer?

It has gotten to the point that it is nigh impossible to tell the difference between what they show in all seriousness, and the parodies of them.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 25, 2021, 09:37:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/FzDrB32.jpg)


Combat wheelchair 40K
A Preacher of the Imperial Creed.
(Dr TotenKranz by Reaper Miniatures...supervillain or ultragross take on Baron Harkonnen?)
(https://forum.reapermini.com/uploads/monthly_12_2012/post-9074-0-46863800-1355471490.jpg)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 25, 2021, 11:25:59 PM
Quote from: Khazav on August 25, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
I don't understand the complaints about the second picture in both of the posts. Sure it's not my style but why do you think 'fantasy' ends with humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings? It could be said that people who don't like the new style aren't creative or imaginative enough to imagine owlpeople or wheelchairs. What's the point of limiting the imagination as long as it still results in an enjoyable game for some groups?
Because some people believe that limiting options to Tolkien's will somehow turn their adventures into this...



When most often a typical D&D campaign is this...



Or worse... this...

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 25, 2021, 11:36:16 PM
NO no no, you're supposed to grumble about monty haul munchkin murder hobos roll playing instead of roll playing. Who needs an orc guarding a chest or torches burning in an abandoned tomb?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/d3/ee/3fd3ee1fb729fc4eaa1ed06ac7a363b2.jpg)

(https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/images/Strixhaven%20Party%20Exam.jpg)

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on August 26, 2021, 01:19:11 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Because you are dealing with the mentality ill. People that have no coping skills. Almost always, they have no YouTube channel. If anything, they'll hide behind a podcast.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 01:25:58 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/d3/ee/3fd3ee1fb729fc4eaa1ed06ac7a363b2.jpg)

(https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/images/Strixhaven%20Party%20Exam.jpg)

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!

Greetings!

Of course! Hostile monsters and evil humanoids are alwaysgoing to focus their attacks against the weakest fucking opponent first. Once the weak moron in the wheelchair is swiftly and brutally slaughtered, the rest of the party is now down a member, and likely at an even greater disadvantage.

The train of shit just keeps getting bigger and bigger against the character party that wants to stupidly handicap themselves from the very beginning by even allowing such a stupid, crippled character to join their party. For most such parties, any venture beyond the town walls are likely to be a constant cascade of defeat and failure.

Such weak and stupid character parties deserve all the pain and defeat coming their way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 01:42:04 AM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 25, 2021, 11:36:16 PM
NO no no, you're supposed to grumble about monty haul munchkin murder hobos roll playing instead of roll playing. Who needs an orc guarding a chest or torches burning in an abandoned tomb?

Or guarding a pie.

But, to be honest, that is for the real hard core gamers.  Most players are not ready for that.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:31:00 AM
I guess wheelchair D&D doesn't require pitons, a hammer, 50 ' of rope, a grapnel, or the 10' pole huh?

All the dungeons have accessible elevators and ramps for any delvers in a wheel chair, and people in a wheel chair in real life (like my 87 year old mom with a hip pin, bad back, neuropathy, and two knee replacements) for instance, wouldn't want to be "pressured" into playing a character with exceptional "parkour & spelunking"  level mobility. AMIRIGHT?

The giant owl-lineage character can stay though. Xhe just might keep those creepy freakin' wererats away + move silently while flying, night vision, and "rip & tear until it is DONE!" for free.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 05:36:49 AM
Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 01:25:58 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
It's not the OSR, it's the people who play it. You have two sides; old school fantasy (basic, light rules, DIY-attitude, figuring things out and coming up with stuff on the run, sword & sorcery, "politically incorrect", grognards, hand-drawn art, gritty, free market/conservatism, sandboxing and exploring dungeons)

new school fantasy (complex rules, buying the new module, playing by the book, freakshitting fantasy and anime, diversity, "consent" and session zero, teens and young adults, digital art, violence is not allowed, marxism and "progress", "telling a story"). OSR is a reaction to being dissatisfied with the current state of affairs which naturally draws people with this kind of mindset.

Most new school are idiots who don't know any better; they were surrounded by the new school and didn't have anything to contrast; see the Allegory of the Cave. Others are willful dummies who can't wait to buy the next module so they're told what to think, how to play and to diversify everything in their marxist, anti-white cult.

A few pictures say it best

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/d3/ee/3fd3ee1fb729fc4eaa1ed06ac7a363b2.jpg)

(https://techraptor.net/sites/default/files/images/Strixhaven%20Party%20Exam.jpg)

Just imagine all the crying that will take place; when the DM informs the party that because of pack tactics, the whole pack of Gnolls focuses their attacks upon the PC in the wheelchair of representation!!!

Greetings!

Of course! Hostile monsters and evil humanoids are alwaysgoing to focus their attacks against the weakest fucking opponent first. Once the weak moron in the wheelchair is swiftly and brutally slaughtered, the rest of the party is now down a member, and likely at an even greater disadvantage.

The train of shit just keeps getting bigger and bigger against the character party that wants to stupidly handicap themselves from the very beginning by even allowing such a stupid, crippled character to join their party. For most such parties, any venture beyond the town walls are likely to be a constant cascade of defeat and failure.

Such weak and stupid character parties deserve all the pain and defeat coming their way.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


And then when the Gnolls start dragging the fallen "hero" away from the rest of the party, to feed upon them; the crying will get even louder.  Why!!!  How could you!!!  You animal!!!

Yes, Gygax would be proud.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Bogmagog on August 26, 2021, 06:19:27 AM
I'm going to repeat what I think most modern gamers want but fail to realize it or why they arrived at this point.

By building overpowered PC's and underpowered npc's we have finally managed to bring a equality of outcomes to the world of role playing games. It doesn't matter what you roll or who you are or really even how your built and tactics used all wotc characters are winners!


That right there is at least how I see modern games after running them and dealing with it's players for years.

It's also a GREAT way to wake them up if you can get them to see it's basically true.

While OSR games are: By playing characters who are underpowered verse the npc's the thrill of the game is when you manage to outthink and outplay the more powerful foes by skill, tactics or luck or a combination of all three. Even though we might fail at least we will fail spectacularly and giving it our all, even until our last hit point!

*Like Khan we spit at Death and our enemies with our last breath*

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Premier on August 26, 2021, 07:37:32 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 05:36:49 AM
Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 01:25:58 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on August 26, 2021, 12:13:29 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 25, 2021, 10:55:58 AM
*** TWO BIG PICTURES ***

You all are so fixated on the lesser problem here that you're missing the bigger one.

Yes, Wheelchair of Representation, yes, White People Are Cancelled. That's the smaller problem. The bigger problem is that this image, along with the other two I've seen so far from the same product, does not work as an illustration. It fails to interpret or explain the text. It fails to give the viewer an idea of what this setting is supposed to be about.

Look at the old picture: it's about a group of armed adventurers being in a dark and foreboding place underground and fighting a bizarre and deadly monster. And that's a perfect illustration, because that's what traditional dungeon crawling is. That picture shows what you get in the game.

But what about this new one here? It shows us three students... marvelling at something that's not in the picture. The other two illustrations are (predominantly) gay students dancing at prom and students hanging out in the library. These pictures fail to tell me what I should expect as a player when playing in this setting. What will we, the player, spend all evening doing around the table? Roleplay hanging out at the library? Roleplay a prom dance? Roleplay marvelling at something? Knowing that this is still fundamentally a Dungeons & Dragons setting, I doubt so. So what is adventuring all about in this setting? Is it about exploring magical archaeological digs? Is it about tracking down rare spell components? Is it about hunting down bizarre creatures that escaped from the school's lab? We don't know, because the illustrations fail to tell us.

Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RandyB on August 26, 2021, 08:44:02 AM
Quote from: Premier on August 26, 2021, 07:37:32 AM
<snip>
Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?



Because destroying D&D for the rest of us is the objective. If we use the OSR, or even just our own unlabeled gaming table, as a way to keep "old" D&D alive, they can't win.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 08:47:43 AM
I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.

(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/0/0a/RollForIt_Chip_Chase_at_the_mike.jpg/300px-RollForIt_Chip_Chase_at_the_mike.jpg)

And I've seen crazier shit in games. Hell, I've played crazier shit. Flip through any Rifts book, and you'll see groups that make those wankers look positivley conformist.

What I do dislike is the undertone that goes with it. Shall we beat the dead horse some more? Why not.
The "progressive" duck-speak politics that goes with it.


Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Habitual Gamer on August 26, 2021, 09:43:51 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 08:47:43 AM
I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.

Some things don't translate well into TTRPGs though. 

The combat wheelchair assumes either 1) a universe where everything respects disability access compliance laws, or 2) a universe where the combat wheelchair has so many enhancements and features to allow its user to get anywhere the rest of the party can that it's just a cosmetic prop for what amounts to a non-disability (at which point, just give the PC magical legbraces or leg replacements or some such and be done with it), or 3) the party simply won't go into the irregular/cramped dungeon because they'd have to leave the handicapped PC behind and don't want to hurt their feelings.

"What about 4?  Where the rest of the party thinks its a fun challenge to help their friend up the castle tower?"

They do have fun, for a while.  Eventually though, dealing with the real world implications of living with a handicap gets handwaved away into irrelevance (option 2) or the party becomes more selective where they go (option 3) as the party stops finding it so fun.  I doubt a GM is going to handwave his entire universe into a place where every dungeon has side ramps, and every underground cavern has smooth flooring of a suitable height.

But yeah, some people really really really want to pretend that they have unfixable handicaps in D&D I guess.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
"Why does OSR trigger people so much?"

Thread proceeds to be mainly complaints about Disabled, Black, and Women characters depicted in art...

No, I don't think it's the products that "trigger" people. It's the portion of the fan-base with "conservative" values. Your euphuism fool no one. As soon as someone implies they are "centrist" or "conservative", we all know they mean "cunt".
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 11:01:34 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
"Why does OSR trigger people so much?"

Thread proceeds to be mainly complaints about Disabled, Black, and Women characters depicted in art...

haha so triggered because you don't like to have relentless propaganda shoved down your throat in every piece of media xDD

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on August 26, 2021, 09:43:51 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 08:47:43 AM
I have zero problems with the combat wheelchair. The Token Disabled Character goes decades back now.
The combat wheelchair assumes either 1) a universe where everything respects disability access compliance laws, or 2) a universe where the combat wheelchair has so many enhancements and features to allow its user to get anywhere the rest of the party can that it's just a cosmetic prop for what amounts to a non-disability (at which point, just give the PC magical legbraces or leg replacements or some such and be done with it), or 3) the party simply won't go into the irregular/cramped dungeon because they'd have to leave the handicapped PC behind and don't want to hurt their feelings.

"What about 4?  Where the rest of the party thinks its a fun challenge to help their friend up the castle tower?"

They do have fun, for a while.  Eventually though, dealing with the real world implications of living with a handicap gets handwaved away into irrelevance (option 2) or the party becomes more selective where they go (option 3) as the party stops finding it so fun.  I doubt a GM is going to handwave his entire universe into a place where every dungeon has side ramps, and every underground cavern has smooth flooring of a suitable height.

But yeah, some people really really really want to pretend that they have unfixable handicaps in D&D I guess.

You're partially right. The problem is that this is left-wing propaganda and nothing but propaganda against "ableism". It's identity politics and pseudo-morality preaching.

Quote from: Premier on August 26, 2021, 07:37:32 AM

You all are so fixated on the lesser problem here that you're missing the bigger one.

Yes, Wheelchair of Representation, yes, White People Are Cancelled. That's the smaller problem. The bigger problem is that this image, along with the other two I've seen so far from the same product, does not work as an illustration. It fails to interpret or explain the text. It fails to give the viewer an idea of what this setting is supposed to be about.

Look at the old picture: it's about a group of armed adventurers being in a dark and foreboding place underground and fighting a bizarre and deadly monster. And that's a perfect illustration, because that's what traditional dungeon crawling is. That picture shows what you get in the game.

But what about this new one here? It shows us three students... marvelling at something that's not in the picture. The other two illustrations are (predominantly) gay students dancing at prom and students hanging out in the library. These pictures fail to tell me what I should expect as a player when playing in this setting. What will we, the player, spend all evening doing around the table? Roleplay hanging out at the library? Roleplay a prom dance? Roleplay marvelling at something? Knowing that this is still fundamentally a Dungeons & Dragons setting, I doubt so. So what is adventuring all about in this setting? Is it about exploring magical archaeological digs? Is it about tracking down rare spell components? Is it about hunting down bizarre creatures that escaped from the school's lab? We don't know, because the illustrations fail to tell us.

Well, unless the setting is about roleplaying hanging out at the library and prom. But then why use D&D, instead of some mid-/new-school system which is deliberately designed to do that sort of thing?

I'd say the propaganda is the bigger deal. But you're right; this shows everything. OSR is about situations, exploring dungeons and fighting. Modern D&D is about how your character feels.

To answer the other question, they chose D&D because it's profitable.


-------------

To the ones who can't see what's wrong with modern artwork, take a look at the sort of games and people they usually go with and tell me later if it is just as good as old school art.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 11:41:23 AM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 11:01:34 AM
To the ones who can't see what's wrong with modern artwork, take a look at the sort of games and people they usually go with and tell me later if it is just as good as old school art.

(https://i.redd.it/xs0mku6ln0f21.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6Zv9FUJJvqs/Wd_OX8g1erI/AAAAAAAAKig/wc5gGmFRepkp8uW_OmAdudcsklJr9g9fACLcBGAs/s1600/DD1.PNG)

(https://res.cloudinary.com/wbp/image/upload/v1622070854/95_ij74dv.jpg)

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 12:48:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.

Ok, so who would you rather play with?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.
Ars Magica has pretty good rules for it. If someone's form is essentially that (as in their mechanical flaws selected that), then magic cannot permanently alter it. You could wrap someone in powerful lengthy enchantments, but then they suffer warping overtime. The wheelchair becomes infinitely more practical in such a well thought out magic system based in Aristotelian physics.

In Wolves of God, Lord must rely on a magic artifact from a Roman Caester because a Saint's magic could not heal a Lord.

In The Black Hack 2e, clerics have no spells to restore limbs.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 01:17:51 PM
I'm fully aware of this, and how the idea makes more sense in other settings that use different rules.

But it's not in any of the games that you mentioned. It's in D&D 5e, which explicitly does have magic which can restore just about any kind of physical disability you care to name.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 01:44:32 PM
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 01:17:51 PM
I'm fully aware of this, and how the idea makes more sense in other settings that use different rules.

But it's not in any of the games that you mentioned. It's in D&D 5e, which explicitly does have magic which can restore just about any kind of physical disability you care to name.
Most spells are not in Ars Magica because you extrapolate from the rules.

Wolves of God has those mechanics pretty explicitly. Even without Magicc, "As Our Power Lessens" foci allows a warrior to ignore missing their legs because they found a way to overcome it. Either through ad-hoc prosthesis or some other method like a primitive wheeled chair. If you take the foci twice, not only do they ignore the scars, they are stronger for them. *Number of scars ignored is limited

If you look at D&D 5e critically, most it does not work at the same standard a magic wheelchair doesn't. I can defend no mechanic in the system so it seems silly to object at the wheelchair because the dumb magic systems does not work when it never works well.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PM
It has been very rare where I've run a game where a player could reasonably play a centaur.  Not a disabled centaur, merely a horse size person with human head, torso, and arms.  It has happened occasionally that I've run games where that kind of thing would work, and a few players did take advantage of the opportunity to go with something off the beaten path.  It's a very different focus that is not my central idea of fun.

I have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.  You can easily extrapolate from there.  And that's what this is also about, not "diversity" or "tolerance" but faux "tolerance" where people get to demand that everyone else accommodate them, because reasons.  Not playing that game, either figuratively or in reality.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 02:40:45 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 26, 2021, 12:48:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 26, 2021, 11:41:23 AM

There's some great old school art, but there are also some real stinkers.

Ok, so who would you rather play with?

I'll play with anyone who behaves themselves at the table.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RebelSky on August 26, 2021, 03:11:06 PM
Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 25, 2021, 12:45:00 PM
The problem is not the OSR.

It's just that some people have a preferred style and no capability of understanding criticism.

Try to say 4e is better than 5e and vice-versa, and I'll sure you''l get lots of people complaining either way. and neither is OSR.

Also, the OSR is not a single thing, and I see a chasm between the "everything goes" of OD&D and the "play it this way or else!" in AD&D.

And as always everything is full of misconceptions (for example, fighting 4 goblins at level 1 might be slightly harder in 5e than AD&D - IIRC, but people would think it is the opposite).

But 4e is a better role-playing game than 5e.

5e is a scam. It presents an illusion of being all about "story" and "diversity" and all that other SJW crap when the core game itself is that it's just another dungeon hack-fest. But it's worse than that as 5e also pretends to be its own OSR take on D&D because 5e is all about "Rulings, not Rules" which IS the fundamental staple of what I feel is central to what defines the OSR.

The whole purpose of 5e, besides making money, was to tap into the D&D fans who liked pre-4e editions. In its core design (core being the 3 Core books only), 5e is an OSR game that was successfully hijacked by the Woke SJW's. Others can argue and claim that it's not OSR, but when you consider that the designers got a few OSR designers to be consultants for the game's design it's pretty clear that was the intention behind its original design.

Plus it was a way for WotC to give a few middle fingers to 4e and that won WotC a lot of praise even though 5e still has a lot of 4e in it. All you have to do is reformat the 5e class powers, change feet to square metrics, change Short/Long Rest to Encounter/Daily Power, and give Fighter and Paladin classes the Mark ability from the DMG. And bring in the Warlord. There is 4e in a 5e reskin. Considering how often the comparison of 5e is to being a superheroic fantasy/MMO kind of game it blows my mind how many don't see these similarities to 4e, which had the exact same comparisons.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:20:10 PM
"You'll go to the non-binary prom in your battle wheelchair and "dance" with a body positive ambiguously coded good drow and you'll like it or you're a racist woman hating nazi cunt" is exactly the kind of field salting incompetence the WotC vision for D&D & MtG need to collapse under its own weight.

I remember when this was going to bring Marvel and DC comics a new audience and instead they lost 80% of their store space to manga.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 03:37:15 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.

Don't worry about it.  He quit trying to mask it a long time ago. He's just trolling at this point.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 03:53:16 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.
*Proceeds to continue talking to random word generators

Racists or "conservatives" as they prefer to be called as they hide behind euphemism and complaints about wheelchairs (which is a whole other "ist" but one which is much more accepted by larger society so it is something they feel safer attacking) lack basic mental capacity or they would not be so overtly suicidally racist. Many are willing to effectively kill their grandparents if it harms minorities more. Now they are incapable of logically thinking through their beliefs step by step or they would not come to such horrible conclusions. This gross negligence on their parts leads at least myself to question their sapience. Obviously they are capable of suffering, but that is being sentient not sapience. I would much rather have a dog at my table than a "conservative" and they would probably be less disruptive.

"How dare you be a bigot towards bigots!" - this is a normal idiot phrase someone struggling to maintain their own sapience spurts out their face-hole. Virtuous tolerance is not harboring ill feeling towards harmless behaviors and being. Tolerating bigots is not virtuous tolerance and the act itself conflicts with other virtues. We could break it down in any ethical system and the accusation is still dumb.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Torque2100 on August 26, 2021, 03:54:15 PM
Quote from: Tantavalist on August 26, 2021, 11:47:22 AM
The general concept of a Dungeoneering Wheelchair isn't an automatic deal-breaker for me. I've heard of and experienced weirder things being invented by player character groups in RPGs. And there's a certain appeal to the idea of a wheelchair version of the Baby Cart of Doom from Shogun Assassin/Lone Wolf & Cub.

No, the real issue for me is that I've read multiple editons of D&D over the decades. It's possible to use magic and enchantments to make that wheelchair- Apparatus of Kwalish, people? But nowhere have I found a set of D&D rules where characters could reach a level where it was possible to do so and not also have access to magic that would allow the character who needs that wheelchair to walk for less time and money than building the wheelchair would need.

I agree and I think this is a great example of why the discourse around "disability representation in RPGs" is such a hot mess.  The DnD 5e Combat Wheelchair is a horribly implemented piece of crap.  Its inclusion is totally nonsensical. By the time any Mage in core DnD 5e could craft that item, they could just as easily walk for a lot less time and money.  The problem here is that DnD is once again the big boy on the block, so the 5e combat wheelchair looms large and overshadows discussions of other games where the wheelchair is actually a wheelchair and not a magical flying tank.

So you get these discussions where everyone's just talking past each each other.  You say "I don't like the 5e combat wheelchair. I think this item is overpowered."  They hear "I hate disabled people and want to exclude them."  Or they say "I want to play a character who is paralyzed from the waist down" you hear "I demand you give me this super OP magical flying tank at First level or you're a bigot."
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 03:53:16 PM

"How dare you be a bigot towards bigots!" - this is a normal idiot phrase someone struggling to maintain their own sapience spurts out their face-hole. Virtuous tolerance is not harboring ill feeling towards harmless behaviors and being. Tolerating bigots is not virtuous tolerance and the act itself conflicts with other virtues. We could break it down in any ethical system and the accusation is still dumb.

You aren't bigoted towards bigots. You're a bigot yourself as is plainly displayed in your presumptions and associations of x position with y politics. You call your own bigotry a struggle against bigotry but it isn't. That's all that your puerile dogmatic tripe amounts to. It's feeble gas lighting to hide from yourself what a weak noxious psuedo-didactic bigot you are. It's autofellatio. Your "questions" about sapience are likewise just empty narcissistic hogwash unfounded in logic or reality.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 03:53:16 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.
*Proceeds to continue talking to random word generators

Racists or "conservatives" as they prefer to be called as they hide behind euphemism and complaints about wheelchairs (which is a whole other "ist" but one which is much more accepted by larger society so it is something they feel safer attacking) lack basic mental capacity or they would not be so overtly suicidally racist. Many are willing to effectively kill their grandparents if it harms minorities more. Now they are incapable of logically thinking through their beliefs step by step or they would not come to such horrible conclusions. This gross negligence on their parts leads at least myself to question their sapience. Obviously they are capable of suffering, but that is being sentient not sapience. I would much rather have a dog at my table than a "conservative" and they would probably be less disruptive.

"How dare you be a bigot towards bigots!" - this is a normal idiot phrase someone struggling to maintain their own sapience spurts out their face-hole. Virtuous tolerance is not harboring ill feeling towards harmless behaviors and being. Tolerating bigots is not virtuous tolerance and the act itself conflicts with other virtues. We could break it down in any ethical system and the accusation is still dumb.

  I have no doubt you are a laugh a second at parties.  I also think this medium is best suited for people like you to say the things they say.  Just stay keep it online, so that you manage to keep all your choppers where they belong.  I would hate to hear about some conservative type KTFO'ing you.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 04:20:26 PM
Quote from: Torque2100 on August 26, 2021, 03:54:15 PM
So you get these discussions where everyone's just talking past each each other.  You say "I don't like the 5e combat wheelchair. I think this item is overpowered."  They hear "I hate disabled people and want to exclude them."  Or they say "I want to play a character who is paralyzed from the waist down" you hear "I demand you give me this super OP magical flying tank at First level or you're a bigot."

There is some of that with the SJW's, but it is much simpler, and this part has been going on forever.  They say, "I want you to run the game so that I can play this character I want to play."  And you say, "I hear you, but I don't want to run that game."  Sometimes it goes around several times between the start and end before we get there, but that's where we get.  Ball is back on the player's side of the court.  So there are a few ways that can go. The player accepts it and plays something else.  The player decides not to play in your game since it isn't a good fit for what he wants.  The player offers to run the kind of game he wants to play.  Or, we get into some of the less mature options where the player is under the delusion that they get to dictate to me what I do and don't run.  Which typically ends when I say, "You want to play that game that bad, you run it.  No?  Didn't think so."  And then I go off with my usual, reasonable players that can tell me quite frankly what they want without playing power games, you know, the mature, friendly, reasonable way to handle things. 

And then some asshole like Rhedyn on the internet tries to make it more than that, to which my answer is that I don't have any trouble finding reasonable players.  Thus I have no incentive to accommodate assholes.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:18:14 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 03:53:16 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 03:24:00 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

You haven't offered any sapient arguments, don't sound like actual people at all, and you are displaying signs that you are extremely bigoted but it's good that you are very open about it.
*Proceeds to continue talking to random word generators

Racists or "conservatives" as they prefer to be called as they hide behind euphemism and complaints about wheelchairs (which is a whole other "ist" but one which is much more accepted by larger society so it is something they feel safer attacking) lack basic mental capacity or they would not be so overtly suicidally racist. Many are willing to effectively kill their grandparents if it harms minorities more. Now they are incapable of logically thinking through their beliefs step by step or they would not come to such horrible conclusions. This gross negligence on their parts leads at least myself to question their sapience. Obviously they are capable of suffering, but that is being sentient not sapience. I would much rather have a dog at my table than a "conservative" and they would probably be less disruptive.

"How dare you be a bigot towards bigots!" - this is a normal idiot phrase someone struggling to maintain their own sapience spurts out their face-hole. Virtuous tolerance is not harboring ill feeling towards harmless behaviors and being. Tolerating bigots is not virtuous tolerance and the act itself conflicts with other virtues. We could break it down in any ethical system and the accusation is still dumb.

  I have no doubt you are a laugh a second at parties.  I also think this medium is best suited for people like you to say the things they say.  Just stay keep it online, so that you manage to keep all your choppers where they belong.  I would hate to hear about some conservative type KTFO'ing you.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

THAT'S what happens when you run your Liberal Cunt mouth in the real world! It's so fucking funny, and so richly deserved! Just like all the ANTIFA bitches getting their asses beat! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 05:06:03 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 04:15:56 PM
It's autofellatio.

You say that like it's a *bad* thing.


Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

Yes, the correct response to words that you don't agree with is criminal violence. 

Of course, that means setting aside Supreme Court decisions in favor of Free Speech that "mere offensiveness does not qualify as 'fighting words'".  But yeah, hard to think of a time when people abandoning the constitution and taking the law into their own hands ever resulted in anything bad happening. 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 05:07:23 PM
Please note that the troll in question wants you to argue with him instead of talking about the topic, so that the topic is not discussed.  Please don't play his game.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AMI'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

Welcome aboard King Tyranno! Hope you enjoy our wretched hive of scum and villainy!

I love the OSR, but something to note is "Old School Rennaissance" can include (I believe should include) looking into the many other non-TSR RPGs from the early era that also played by the similar concepts you say you enjoy.

In particular, I highly recommend checking out the RPGs from Palladium Books. They haven't meaningfully updated their rules in decades and keep cranking out good stuff.

As for the Critical Role crowd, fuck'em.

It's important that the RPG hobby segregate because there's significant difference in playstyles and expectations and each group doesn't need to interact with the other. Boardgamers and card gamers do this segregation better than RPGers.

Find your tribe, gather members of your tribe and have fun.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PM
The problem is that storygamers and Pundits Swine worked hard to co-opt and take control of RPGs and you can and likely eventually will run into one, ore more of these types. Many of which are flat out insane. The Forge and Cult of Ron have a particular hatred of DMs and have ingraned it into many gamers minds that the DM must be shackled, chained, or outright removed totally so that RPGs can be pure and free of their tyranny!

Whats Role Playing? To a storygamer - Everything on Earth.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 05:06:03 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on August 26, 2021, 04:15:56 PM
It's autofellatio.

You say that like it's a *bad* thing.


Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

Yes, the correct response to words that you don't agree with is criminal violence. 

Of course, that means setting aside Supreme Court decisions in favor of Free Speech that "mere offensiveness does not qualify as 'fighting words'".  But yeah, hard to think of a time when people abandoning the constitution and taking the law into their own hands ever resulted in anything bad happening.

   I do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PMI do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.
0_0

Y'all stupid.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 06:09:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PMI do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.
0_0

Y'all stupid.

  Like I said, this is the perfect medium for you and your kind.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 06:54:40 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PMThe problem is that storygamers and Pundits Swine worked hard to co-opt and take control of RPGs and you can and likely eventually will run into one, ore more of these types.

And that is why rooms have doors.

And windows.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:18:14 PM
  I have no doubt you are a laugh a second at parties.  I also think this medium is best suited for people like you to say the things they say.  Just stay keep it online, so that you manage to keep all your choppers where they belong.  I would hate to hear about some conservative type KTFO'ing you.
Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

THAT'S what happens when you run your Liberal Cunt mouth in the real world!
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PMI do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.

SHARK and oggsmash -- it seems particularly ironic to talk about the cowardliness of online talk when you're talking anonymously online. I suspect that offline, you don't talk the way you talk here -- and you'd be afraid to have how you speak revealed.

I stand by my beliefs both online and offline. I am open about my real name and location online, and in the real world, I'll say exactly the same that I say here. I've gotten harassed a few times both online and offline, but never punched or knocked out.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PM
Whats Role Playing? To a storygamer - Everything on Earth.

Everything except those powergaming min/maxing bigots.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:18:14 PM
  I have no doubt you are a laugh a second at parties.  I also think this medium is best suited for people like you to say the things they say.  Just stay keep it online, so that you manage to keep all your choppers where they belong.  I would hate to hear about some conservative type KTFO'ing you.
Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

THAT'S what happens when you run your Liberal Cunt mouth in the real world!
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PMI do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.

SHARK and oggsmash -- it seems particularly ironic to talk about the cowardliness of online talk when you're talking anonymously online. I suspect that offline, you don't talk the way you talk here -- and you'd be afraid to have how you speak revealed.

I stand by my beliefs both online and offline. I am open about my real name and location online, and in the real world, I'll say exactly the same that I say here. I've gotten harassed a few times both online and offline, but never punched or knocked out.

  I can get cancelled for tossing out anything even remotely perceived the wrong way.  I have never seen you say or do a single thing that would warrant an ass whipping.  If you would like my name and address, I will gladly give it to you in a message.  Stop by,  train a bit, enjoy yourself.  But one thing you will see, is I have said not one thing here that I do not say in person, on some subjects, I will be a good deal stronger.  Would you like my name and where should you ever be in my neck of the woods we can discuss such matters in person?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
I stand by my beliefs both online and offline. I am open about my real name and location online, and in the real world, I'll say exactly the same that I say here. I've gotten harassed a few times both online and offline, but never punched or knocked out.

  I can get cancelled for tossing out anything even remotely perceived the wrong way.  I have never seen you say or do a single thing that would warrant an ass whipping.  If you would like my name and address, I will gladly give it to you in a message.  Stop by,  train a bit, enjoy yourself.  But one thing you will see, is I have said not one thing here that I do not say in person, on some subjects, I will be a good deal stronger.  Would you like my name and where should you ever be in my neck of the woods we can discuss such matters in person?

Hi, oggsmash. OK, I've PMed you.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:55:03 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
I stand by my beliefs both online and offline. I am open about my real name and location online, and in the real world, I'll say exactly the same that I say here. I've gotten harassed a few times both online and offline, but never punched or knocked out.

  I can get cancelled for tossing out anything even remotely perceived the wrong way.  I have never seen you say or do a single thing that would warrant an ass whipping.  If you would like my name and address, I will gladly give it to you in a message.  Stop by,  train a bit, enjoy yourself.  But one thing you will see, is I have said not one thing here that I do not say in person, on some subjects, I will be a good deal stronger.  Would you like my name and where should you ever be in my neck of the woods we can discuss such matters in person?

Hi, oggsmash. OK, I've PMed you.

  Returned.  I am also serious, if ever in the area, feel free to come by there.  I would make an appearance to the night crew just for you.  Edited to add:  nothing ominous in that, new people do not do anything that is going to get them hurt, or even really too uncomfortable, they more or less practice stuff on non resistant bodies and movements.  Flat tone of text made me wonder how that is taken.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:26:42 PMWould you like my name and where should you ever be in my neck of the woods we can discuss such matters in person?

So he can share it with his AntiFart buddies? Try a little self-preservation. You're being baited.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:01:50 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 07:26:42 PMWould you like my name and where should you ever be in my neck of the woods we can discuss such matters in person?

So he can share it with his AntiFart buddies? Try a little self-preservation. You're being baited.

  I will be honest, currently I have a nigh immunity to being cancelled, and I really do not think he is that sort.   If antifa types feel looking around for me is a good idea in person, well Darwin does what he does.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

THIS is excellent and we need MORE of this.

Why? We need more segregation in the hobby, and realistically, in every other aspect of life. People have the right to associate with their own and its become abundantly clear that however you define the cultural divide, its imperative that each "side" go its separate way.

Secession isn't just for red states. It's for individuals and groups to separate themselves from those who oppose them.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:09:36 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:01:50 PMwell Darwin does what he does.

Indeed, but taqiyya isn't just for Muslims anymore.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:12:04 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 26, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2021, 01:48:07 PMI have less than zero interest in playing with anyone that would even think about demanding that I accommodate their centaur character in my more typical game.
Thankfully for you, such people would not want to get within spitting distance of you let alone play at your table!

Actual people (as in those capable of sapient thought) don't want to play with "conservatives". You may be confusing demands with a litmus test to filter out bigots.

THIS is excellent and we need MORE of this.

Why? We need more segregation in the hobby, and realistically, in every other aspect of life. People have the right to associate with their own and its become abundantly clear that however you define the cultural divide, its imperative that each "side" go its separate way.

Secession isn't just for red states. It's for individuals and groups to separate themselves from those who oppose them.

  I do not know if I agree.  Now, playing with that dude is likely a pass for me, because I think he will let people know who he is.  I guess if a person is constantly going on and on about something socially or politically divisive at a table I would not care to play with them, but I do think people with different political perspectives can interact together in a hobby and likely see one another as people and not "others".   I guess putting out fliers telling any potential players what you are looking to match with could work, but I would be more concerned about what people would show up from a flier like that.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:14:00 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:09:36 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:01:50 PMwell Darwin does what he does.

Indeed, but taqiyya isn't just for Muslims anymore.

  Like I said, I see things from a different perspective, but I also see his behavior has been fairly consistent.  I can say I trust him not to do a thing like that. 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:33:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:12:04 PMbut I do think people with different political perspectives can interact together in a hobby and likely see one another as people and not "others".   

Either your bong is packed with the good stuff, or you're the spiritual incarnation of Roy Rogers, or you're posting from 2015.

As for jhkim, I would not judge his online persona solely on his posts here. Plenty of other posts in other places that might be of interest. And easy to find too since he is safely on the proper side of censorship and can boast of his "bravery" in proclaiming his "real name". 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:50:36 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:33:06 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:12:04 PMbut I do think people with different political perspectives can interact together in a hobby and likely see one another as people and not "others".   

Either your bong is packed with the good stuff, or you're the spiritual incarnation of Roy Rogers, or you're posting from 2015.

As for jhkim, I would not judge his online persona solely on his posts here. Plenty of other posts in other places that might be of interest. And easy to find too since he is safely on the proper side of censorship and can boast of his "bravery" in proclaiming his "real name".

  I am pretty tired, and I did sweat a lot today, so maybe you are right.    As for bravery, you may be right.  But, if someone were to do something that might affect/threaten my wife or kids in some way, censorship would be the least of such a person's worries.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:59:16 PM
  But I do still think maybe having people engage in an activity together is the best way to break down some hardening that politics might have caused.  I think a good deal of the hardening has come in a degree from interaction online.   I engaged in activities that were in large part politically split, and for the most part we do not discuss politics, and people respect one another due to how we act during that activity.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 26, 2021, 09:54:23 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:59:16 PM
  But I do still think maybe having people engage in an activity together is the best way to break down some hardening that politics might have caused.  I think a good deal of the hardening has come in a degree from interaction online.   I engaged in activities that were in large part politically split, and for the most part we do not discuss politics, and people respect one another due to how we act during that activity.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 10:23:03 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:17:59 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:18:14 PM
  I have no doubt you are a laugh a second at parties.  I also think this medium is best suited for people like you to say the things they say.  Just stay keep it online, so that you manage to keep all your choppers where they belong.  I would hate to hear about some conservative type KTFO'ing you.
Quote from: SHARK on August 26, 2021, 04:28:15 PM
*Laughing* Yeah, my friend! I have seen numerous videos where Liberal morons were running their mouth at Conservatives, just like Rhedyn does, and the Liberal pussy gets fucking beat down and often knocked the fuck out with one punch! Fucking hilarious! And then listening to the Liberal pussies sobbing like bitches as blood runs down their faces!

THAT'S what happens when you run your Liberal Cunt mouth in the real world!
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:56:43 PMI do not see many people getting KTFO'd for offensiveness.  They usually cross a line making some sort of threat or other, and where I live, if accompanied by a bit of animated posturing, the police are going to tell you too damn bad when you attempt to report your session of tooth loss to them.   So sure, chant what you like, say what you want, but...there are such things as fighting words, and many states cover it in their laws.  So I guess it depends on where you live on how much you can reel out checks from your mouth before someone decides to cash one.   Libelous I am pretty sure counts as fighting words, so call people racist if you like.  Just make sure to check your zip code first.

SHARK and oggsmash -- it seems particularly ironic to talk about the cowardliness of online talk when you're talking anonymously online. I suspect that offline, you don't talk the way you talk here -- and you'd be afraid to have how you speak revealed.

I stand by my beliefs both online and offline. I am open about my real name and location online, and in the real world, I'll say exactly the same that I say here. I've gotten harassed a few times both online and offline, but never punched or knocked out.

Greetings!

Well, Jhkim, I am not some "Community Activist" or Demagogue that travels around the country vagabond-style looking for photo-ops and other opportunities to place themselves in some kind of dramatic spotlight or confrontation. Having said that, I have also never been shy about voicing my opinions in public, whether at the university, at the local bar or grill, at church, outside an abortion clinic, or on a streetcorner. My positions are quite consistent, whether online or in the real world.

I'm not concerned with what some pussy Liberals think or might think they can attempt face to face. I live in an area almost entirely populated by heavily-armed Conservative Trump supporters. Veterans, policemen, tradesmen, farmers. All church-going Christians. People here are generous, polite, and respectful. I have a Glock 45 pistol for anyone who wants to get in my face, like many of my neighbors and fellow citizens here.

Unlike the rabid, rainbow hippy Liberal pigs that live in tyrannical Blue-areas, most people around me are very much in agreement with my views. There are good reasons why ANTIFA and BLM stayed the fuck in Oregon. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 08:02:11 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:59:16 PM
  But I do still think maybe having people engage in an activity together is the best way to break down some hardening that politics might have caused.  I think a good deal of the hardening has come in a degree from interaction online.   I engaged in activities that were in large part politically split, and for the most part we do not discuss politics, and people respect one another due to how we act during that activity.

Sure.  I'm fine with that as long as everyone involved is willing to play it that way.  I'm not fine with it when one or two of them decide that their views are so obviously correct and inarguable that they can just spout them out anytime they feel, get 100% agreement, as if they were talking about the weather or where the sun came up this morning.  There has to be enough self-awareness of the participants to make that work--dare I say even some minimum maturity, manners, and thought?

This is why I don't want to talk politics during the game even when I know that every single person at the table agrees with me entirely.  Maybe before or after when doing a long session, because the whole aspect of "the game" is a social gathering too, and like-minded people need a way to vent.  Once play starts, I'm there to set all that aside, not dig into it.  And the circle I'm in that might do that before or after has the self-awareness to shut that down entirely when someone new comes into the group.

I know some people who have retained this ability despite being very far left in their politics.  We aren't the best of friends, but we respect each other because we know when to put the focus on whatever is at hand.  One of them has an interest in gaming and has a long-standing invite to one of my games.  Covid and other aspects of life keeps pushing that back, but the invite stands.  Because I know this person is about as far away from "asshole" as a person can get.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 08:02:11 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 08:59:16 PM
  But I do still think maybe having people engage in an activity together is the best way to break down some hardening that politics might have caused.  I think a good deal of the hardening has come in a degree from interaction online.   I engaged in activities that were in large part politically split, and for the most part we do not discuss politics, and people respect one another due to how we act during that activity.

Sure.  I'm fine with that as long as everyone involved is willing to play it that way.  I'm not fine with it when one or two of them decide that their views are so obviously correct and inarguable that they can just spout them out anytime they feel, get 100% agreement, as if they were talking about the weather or where the sun came up this morning.  There has to be enough self-awareness of the participants to make that work--dare I say even some minimum maturity, manners, and thought?

This is why I don't want to talk politics during the game even when I know that every single person at the table agrees with me entirely.  Maybe before or after when doing a long session, because the whole aspect of "the game" is a social gathering too, and like-minded people need a way to vent.  Once play starts, I'm there to set all that aside, not dig into it.  And the circle I'm in that might do that before or after has the self-awareness to shut that down entirely when someone new comes into the group.

I know some people who have retained this ability despite being very far left in their politics.  We aren't the best of friends, but we respect each other because we know when to put the focus on whatever is at hand.  One of them has an interest in gaming and has a long-standing invite to one of my games.  Covid and other aspects of life keeps pushing that back, but the invite stands.  Because I know this person is about as far away from "asshole" as a person can get.

  I agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in. 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 09:13:33 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AM
  I agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in.

The kind I'm talking about, it's now mostly how they say it, but rather what they say and the tone.  There's the internet drivel, like we have seen from one of our resident trolls in this topic.  Then there's a person saying, kind of casual-like, similar things in a tone of just making a passing remark.  Thus the lack of self-awareness.  To them, there's no difference in saying, "Hey it rained a lot today" in a pleasant tone and saying, "Can't stand those icky, racist, horrible conservatives" in the exact same tone--and then preceding to make clear with similar remarks that "conservative" for them includes anyone to their right--as they "understand" it in their admittedly thoughtless perspective.  And they do this in a room of people where everyone else would call themselves either independent (with some justice, not vapid claiming of the center), libertarian, or conservative.  And they don''t stop when everyone else looks at them as if they had just dumped a chamber pot on the table, dead silence, and then someone changes the subject. 

I would much rather deal with a self-aware liberal than this kind of person.  That's the kind of person you can disagree with yesterday or an hour ago and then set it aside to pursue some common, non-political interest.  And that is largely why SJW's are hated by every reasonable person.  A few of them are calculated power-mad individuals, but for most of them their defining characteristic is this complete lack of self-awareness.  Some of them just manage to not spit and sputter while they display it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AMI agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in.
It's more the issue that conservatives don't know when they are being political and politicize things that are not political.

For example, someone being unvaccinated at our table is pretty un-fucking acceptable. That sort of anti-social psychopathy is not a political issue.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 09:20:10 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 09:13:33 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AM
  I agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in.

The kind I'm talking about, it's now mostly how they say it, but rather what they say and the tone.  There's the internet drivel, like we have seen from one of our resident trolls in this topic.  Then there's a person saying, kind of casual-like, similar things in a tone of just making a passing remark.  Thus the lack of self-awareness.  To them, there's no difference in saying, "Hey it rained a lot today" in a pleasant tone and saying, "Can't stand those icky, racist, horrible conservatives" in the exact same tone--and then preceding to make clear with similar remarks that "conservative" for them includes anyone to their right--as they "understand" it in their admittedly thoughtless perspective.  And they do this in a room of people where everyone else would call themselves either independent (with some justice, not vapid claiming of the center), libertarian, or conservative.  And they don''t stop when everyone else looks at them as if they had just dumped a chamber pot on the table, dead silence, and then someone changes the subject. 

I would much rather deal with a self-aware liberal than this kind of person.  That's the kind of person you can disagree with yesterday or an hour ago and then set it aside to pursue some common, non-political interest.  And that is largely why SJW's are hated by every reasonable person.  A few of them are calculated power-mad individuals, but for most of them their defining characteristic is this complete lack of self-awareness.  Some of them just manage to not spit and sputter while they display it.

   LOL, maybe I live in Sparta.  because popping off like that casually might get you slapped by one of those conservatives.  Just as much as saying something equally as judgemental and terrible about a liberal might get you slapped.   

   "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

― Robert E. Howard
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AMI agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in.
It's more the issue that conservatives don't know when they are being political and politicize things that are not political.

For example, someone being unvaccinated at our table is pretty un-fucking acceptable. That sort of anti-social psychopathy is not a political issue.

Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated. Seriously can't tell if you believe half the stuff you post or if you're just trolling. Hard to tell these days with so many autists running around
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 09:42:33 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 08:46:48 AMI agree 100 percent here, I am a bit curious as to what sort of people are so political all the time, they are political at a game table.   Sure some recent news event might come up, but it seems there is a tone from some people that a view you vent on a forum is something you walk around just waiting to spout off to anyone who might be offended by it at all times.  Spurg out behavior is not welcomed anywhere, at any time that I have seen.  If someone is sperging out non stop, they just will not be included in any group of any activity I engage in.
It's more the issue that conservatives don't know when they are being political and politicize things that are not political.

For example, someone being unvaccinated at our table is pretty un-fucking acceptable. That sort of anti-social psychopathy is not a political issue.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

― Robert E. Howard
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AMGood thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated. Seriously can't tell if you believe half the stuff you post or if you're just trolling. Hard to tell these days with so many autists running around

Sometimes I come back to this forum to remind myself that "conservatives" aren't actual people and we have less moral obligation to them than the average dog. Blessedly, I have little interaction with "conservatives" outside of the most professional of settings where them sharing any of their awful opinions gets them immediately fired.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 10:21:50 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AMGood thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated. Seriously can't tell if you believe half the stuff you post or if you're just trolling. Hard to tell these days with so many autists running around

Sometimes I come back to this forum to remind myself that "conservatives" aren't actual people and we have less moral obligation to them than the average dog. Blessedly, I have little interaction with "conservatives" outside of the most professional of settings where them sharing any of their awful opinions gets them immediately fired.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

― Robert E. Howard
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Case in point:
1) All actual scientific evidence suggest that vaccination provides stronger protection than recovering from COVID-19.

2) All actual scientific evidence suggest that the vaccinated spread significantly less than those who recovered from COVID-19.

3) Getting vaccinated is still recommended for those who have been infected.

4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

Nothing political here. Yet "conservatives" make it political and we all know why. COVID-19 did hurt city congested minorities more than white people so they are pro-plague. That is no longer the case because of vaccination, but it's a little to late for conservatives to back out now without just admitting that they are suicidally racist.

And yet y'all wonder why actual sapient people would rather avoid having conservatives at the table?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 10:30:10 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Case in point:
1) All actual scientific evidence suggest that vaccination provides stronger protection than recovering from COVID-19.

2) All actual scientific evidence suggest that the vaccinated spread significantly less than those who recovered from COVID-19.

3) Getting vaccinated is still recommended for those who have been infected.

4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

Nothing political here. Yet "conservatives" make it political and we all know why. COVID-19 did hurt city congested minorities more than white people so they are pro-plague. That is no longer the case because of vaccination, but it's a little to late for conservatives to back out now without just admitting that they are suicidality racist.

And yet y'all wonder why actual sapient people would rather avoid having conservatives at the table?

   At many gaming tables, that are actually in the real world, and not in your head..the group of people who are not getting vaccines are not a monolith, and are made up of some very interesting groups of minorities. 
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 11:09:05 AM
Note that the troll has changed tactics again in order to try to derail the conversation with an off-topic twist.  Bonus points for him if he can get someone else warned or even banned for taking the bait.  But his main goal is that the discussion not happen.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 11:10:11 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 10:30:10 AMAt many gaming tables, that are actually in the real world, and not in your head..the group of people who are not getting vaccines are not a monolith, and are made up of some very interesting groups of minorities.
Does the wet spaghetti in your skull think that is some kind of gotcha? That I as a liberal must condone and bend over backwards to justify any and all minority behaviors because of some sort of misunderstanding of diversity as a virtue?

No you idiot. I am anti-racist and indifferent towards irrelevant melanin concentrations. Not getting vaccinated is equally stupid for everyone. I do begrudge people less if there reason is a deep distrust for racist institutions that may just pretend to treat them for things like syphilis. It's also difficult to enforce vaccination because you know the racist would prosecute minorities first and violently so. Of course such critical race theory observations are illegal to teach in many states.

I'll reiterate. People aren't triggered by OSR, they are just trying to filter out "conservatives" from their table.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 11:21:27 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 11:10:11 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 10:30:10 AMAt many gaming tables, that are actually in the real world, and not in your head..the group of people who are not getting vaccines are not a monolith, and are made up of some very interesting groups of minorities.
Does the wet spaghetti in your skull think that is some kind of gotcha? That I as a liberal must condone and bend over backwards to justify any and all minority behaviors because of some sort of misunderstanding of diversity as a virtue?

No you idiot. I am anti-racist and indifferent towards irrelevant melanin concentrations. Not getting vaccinated is equally stupid for everyone. I do begrudge people less if there reason is a deep distrust for racist institutions that may just pretend to treat them for things like syphilis. It's also difficult to enforce vaccination because you know the racist would prosecute minorities first and violently so. Of course such critical race theory observations are illegal to teach in many states.

I'll reiterate. People aren't triggered by OSR, they are just trying to filter out "conservatives" from their table.

  I have a feeling you do not have to worry about a single conservative, centrist or sane person at your table.  They say good fences make good neighbors, so stick with your own and have fun.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Case in point:
1) All actual scientific evidence suggest that vaccination provides stronger protection than recovering from COVID-19.

2) All actual scientific evidence suggest that the vaccinated spread significantly less than those who recovered from COVID-19.

3) Getting vaccinated is still recommended for those who have been infected.

4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

Nothing political here. Yet "conservatives" make it political and we all know why. COVID-19 did hurt city congested minorities more than white people so they are pro-plague. That is no longer the case because of vaccination, but it's a little to late for conservatives to back out now without just admitting that they are suicidally racist.

And yet y'all wonder why actual sapient people would rather avoid having conservatives at the table?

And you never stopped to wonder why people aren't getting the vaccine? You just label them as conservative, and to you conservative means racist and move on. Have you ever stopped to think maybe it's just lack of trust in institutions that have done something to damage that trust in the past? and that while the scientific method is in fact a good way of doing things, people don't trust the people who are telling them about the findings and how easy it is to manipulate the data or how we have had them do shady things in the past.

Fact: The pandemic was used as an excuse to greatly expand the power of the governing bodies all over the world.
Also fact: during the pandemic governments, and hospitals manipulated the data on covid19 in order to secure more power and more funding.
Also Fact: The CDC and other government organizations have performed illegal medical experiments on the us citizens without their knowledge or consent.
Also Fact: There are several conflicts of interest between the makers of the vaccine and government entities.
Also Fact: There was financial incentive to rush the vaccine through the trials, and has not been as thoroughly tested as known vaccines for things such as the flu, chicken pox, tetanus etc.

And now for other circumstantially related facts:
All medication produces various effects on the body, the desired effect is called the theraputic effect. IE You take ibuprofen for a headache, the desired effect is a pain reliever. A side effect is an undesired effect or effect other than the desired effect. Keeping on with ibuprofen, side effects can include stomach aches and even ulcers, i believe also over a period time damage to bone density as well as an effect on the liver. Given the usual time for these side effects to manifest over using it a few times, you have decided that these side effects are acceptable weighed against the desired effect of pain relief. Vaccines are no different.

After going on about my body my choice chanting it down the streets and not shutting the fuck up about it when it came to things like abortion where you are literally making a choice to terminate another life, now all of a sudden getting this vaccine is no longer the choice of the person receiving it.

Also if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AMAlso if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?
No, every conservative should lose their life.

That blessed reality is too difficult to achieve in an ethical fashion. Both finding a method specific enough to be ethical and a method that does not corrupt the performers. You asshole pro-life chanting, child murderers are not worth the air you breathe. Regardless of whatever stupid twisted faux logic you decide to replace peer reviewed science with. Conservatives losing their jobs is woefully short of what they actually deserve.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Aglondir on August 27, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 11:10:11 AM
That I as a liberal...
You are not a liberal.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 12:18:36 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AMAlso if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?
No, every conservative should lose their life.

That blessed reality is too difficult to achieve in an ethical fashion. Both finding a method specific enough to be ethical and a method that does not corrupt the performers. You asshole pro-life chanting, child murderers are not worth the air you breathe. Regardless of whatever stupid twisted faux logic you decide to replace peer reviewed science with. Conservatives losing their jobs is woefully short of what they actually deserve.

My mistake, I shouldnt throw my pearls to swine. I apologize for assuming you are capable of higher brain function, and have the personality of a rabid dog. Go ahead, make my god damn day. I dare you, i double dare you mother fucker, i'm begging you. Please...jump. Jump and rid us of your hatred once and for all.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 12:44:15 PM
Well this is becoming a fuckin ride. I just wanted to know why certain types get triggered at the mere mention of the OSR but now we're having discussions about the Plandemic. A couple leftist bigots decided to virtue signal. Here? On an RPG forum full of autists including myself? Jog on.

I can absolutely see that the majority of the people who may find umbridge with the OSR are very authoritarian leftists who can't stand people having fun without their masters in control. But to be honest that wasn't really what I was thinking of when I made this topic. I don't care what a person's political affiliation is so long as they shut up at the table. Leftist SJWs ruin everything they touch and are only beaten by men pretending to be women in this regard. So I refuse to let them use my game sessions as another soap box. But they are but one voice in the choir of people who start going on at people whenever they so much as mention the OSR.

If I may be so bold, I would ask if we could go back on topic please?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Abraxus on August 27, 2021, 12:51:57 PM
Looks like Rheydn is not only taking the Piss or just simply the third rate kind. It's funny how supposed " Liberals" pretend to be anything but.

As usual though it's all about the carefully constructed personal narratives and anything that goes against is to be ignored or in his case summarily executed.

If you don't like it here fuck off back to the echo chamber that is RPG.net.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 12:44:15 PM
Well this is becoming a fuckin ride. I just wanted to know why certain types get triggered at the mere mention of the OSR but now we're having discussions about the Plandemic. A couple leftist bigots decided to virtue signal. Here? On an RPG forum full of autists including myself? Jog on.

I can absolutely see that the majority of the people who may find umbridge with the OSR are very authoritarian leftists who can't stand people having fun without their masters in control. But to be honest that wasn't really what I was thinking of when I made this topic. I don't care what a person's political affiliation is so long as they shut up at the table. Leftist SJWs ruin everything they touch and are only beaten by men pretending to be women in this regard. So I refuse to let them use my game sessions as another soap box. But they are but one voice in the choir of people who start going on at people whenever they so much as mention the OSR.

If I may be so bold, I would ask if we could go back on topic please?
lol OSR is my personal favorite collection of systems.

I also like how you effortlessly slipped in some transphobia. Really highlights the actual problem. People don't have a problem with OSR. People have a problem with "conservatives".

The authentic historical OSR RPGs sit on my shelf next to the genderpunk OSR RPGs without issue. A quality product is a quality product. I have witnessed a lot of "cult of new" people who dislike retro art and anything old. When a really good OSR product comes out, that can trigger cognitive dissonance in such people. But I think the greater factor is people like you talk to what you considered triggered people and they shit all over the thing you like because they don't like you. It's not really a crusade against OSR, D&D 5e after all is a couple of house rules away from being OSR and it is the most popular RPG.
(Those house rules being, remove con-mod from HP, add con-mod to death saving throws, do group initiative.)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 01:03:35 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AMAlso if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?
No, every conservative should lose their life.

That blessed reality is too difficult to achieve in an ethical fashion. Both finding a method specific enough to be ethical and a method that does not corrupt the performers. You asshole pro-life chanting, child murderers are not worth the air you breathe. Regardless of whatever stupid twisted faux logic you decide to replace peer reviewed science with. Conservatives losing their jobs is woefully short of what they actually deserve.

  In an rpg where the designed evil is there, and is unapologetically evil, only cowards say they must be killed "ethically"..  The ethical decision is to simply kill those who are unredeemable and evil.  Only a complete, and utter coward decides ethics are what stop them from killing someone they know to be evil.  So in the rpgs I play, if that is the problem for you, you are simply an unethical coward.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:07:11 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:58:25 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 12:44:15 PM
Well this is becoming a fuckin ride. I just wanted to know why certain types get triggered at the mere mention of the OSR but now we're having discussions about the Plandemic. A couple leftist bigots decided to virtue signal. Here? On an RPG forum full of autists including myself? Jog on.

I can absolutely see that the majority of the people who may find umbridge with the OSR are very authoritarian leftists who can't stand people having fun without their masters in control. But to be honest that wasn't really what I was thinking of when I made this topic. I don't care what a person's political affiliation is so long as they shut up at the table. Leftist SJWs ruin everything they touch and are only beaten by men pretending to be women in this regard. So I refuse to let them use my game sessions as another soap box. But they are but one voice in the choir of people who start going on at people whenever they so much as mention the OSR.

If I may be so bold, I would ask if we could go back on topic please?

I also like how you effortlessly slipped in some transphobia.

I'm sorry you think respecting mentally ill people makes you a virtuous person. But it does not. And those who have to constantly claim they are virtuous are in fact the opposite. Without exception. You are advocating for the deaths of those you disagree with politically whilst also espousing your moral purity. I doubt you'll ever see the double standard there. Because you believe that because you are arbitrarily righteous due to your political beliefs everything you do is morally right and only done to the deserving and wicked. Any inconsistencies waved away as a necessary evil to stop the evil right wingers who are going to put people in concentration camps and kill people they don't agree with politically. But that's okay when you do it. Because you're so righteous.  Stop the holyier than thou attitude. Your opinion is sickening enough but that you virtue signal on an RPG forum with only a handful of people makes it sad and pointless.

tldr: suck the boyclit, bigot.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:19:15 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 01:03:35 PMIn an rpg where the designed evil is there, and is unapologetically evil, only cowards say they must be killed "ethically"..  The ethical decision is to simply kill those who are unredeemable and evil.  Only a complete, and utter coward decides ethics are what stop them from killing someone they know to be evil.  So in the rpgs I play, if that is the problem for you, you are simply an unethical coward.
You also play as Heroes in RPGs. As in a person capable of violence that can perform violence without being fundamentally damaged by it. When that quality is mixed with a good moral compass, you get a virtuous hero.

Such people are rare. Most people are completely incapable of violence without extreme circumstances. Even people who think they are violent, by and large try to avoid lethal or maiming blows in their conflicts. Some people are willing to have PTSD to commit violence to save lives. While they are heroes that is not the kind of person an RPG character represents. Your average RPG hero could slay hundreds and never lose a wink of sleep. We have records of modern soldiers and Knights who performed such feats without issue, but they are rare individuals.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:07:11 PMI'm sorry you think respecting mentally ill people makes you a virtuous person. But it does not. And those who have to constantly claim they are virtuous are in fact the opposite. Without exception. You are advocating for the deaths of those you disagree with politically whilst also espousing your moral purity. I doubt you'll ever see the double standard there. Because you believe that because you are arbitrarily righteous due to your political beliefs everything you do is morally right and only done to the deserving and wicked. Any inconsistencies waved away as a necessary evil to stop the evil right wingers who are going to put people in concentration camps and kill people they don't agree with politically. But that's okay when you do it. Because you're so righteous.  Stop the holyier than thou attitude. Your opinion is sickening enough but that you virtue signal on an RPG forum with only a handful of people makes it sad and pointless.

tldr: suck the boyclit, bigot.
You could at least try to stay on topic.

I'm not virtue signaling. That would require my beliefs expressed to be above the bare minimum. Just because people like you can't tolerate someone's harmless behavior without insulting them in a crass unemphatic manner does not mean my differing stance is some sort of virtue.

"Conservatives" are mass murderers that will likely spawn a new vaccine resistant COVID-19 variant to start this process over again. Worse case scenario, we go back to Victorian era life expectancy as common illnesses kill most 60+ old people. The fact they also cripple democracy and will get us all killed with climate change is just shit syrup on the feces Sunday.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:32:16 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:07:11 PMI'm sorry you think respecting mentally ill people makes you a virtuous person. But it does not. And those who have to constantly claim they are virtuous are in fact the opposite. Without exception. You are advocating for the deaths of those you disagree with politically whilst also espousing your moral purity. I doubt you'll ever see the double standard there. Because you believe that because you are arbitrarily righteous due to your political beliefs everything you do is morally right and only done to the deserving and wicked. Any inconsistencies waved away as a necessary evil to stop the evil right wingers who are going to put people in concentration camps and kill people they don't agree with politically. But that's okay when you do it. Because you're so righteous.  Stop the holyier than thou attitude. Your opinion is sickening enough but that you virtue signal on an RPG forum with only a handful of people makes it sad and pointless.

tldr: suck the boyclit, bigot.
You could at least try to stay on topic.

I'm not virtue signaling. That would require my beliefs expressed to be above the bare minimum. Just because people like you can't tolerate someone's harmless behavior without insulting them in a crass unemphatic manner does not mean my differing stance is some sort of virtue.

"Conservatives" are mass murderers that will likely spawn a new vaccine resistant COVID-19 variant to start this process over again. Worse case scenario, we go back to Victorian era life expectancy as common illnesses kill most 60+ old people. The fact they also cripple democracy and will get us all killed with climate change is just shit syrup on the feces Sunday.

You are talking about tolerating other people's behavior whilst also advocating for the deaths of other people's harmless behaviour. If you can't see the hypocrisy there you are actually mentally ill. I have nothing more to say to you.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:32:16 PMYou are talking about tolerating other people's behavior whilst also advocating for the deaths of other people's harmless behaviour. If you can't see the hypocrisy there you are actually mentally ill. I have nothing more to say to you.
Since when is mass murder via bioterrorism harmless?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 27, 2021, 01:34:12 PM
Greetings!

I think that the OSR triggers many Liberals especially because the OSR refuses to embrace cock-sucking Marxist ideology and racist-demagogue talking points. SJWism, political correctness, feminism, intersectionality--all the Liberal jello. The OSR tends to resist and reject all of that nonsense. That enrages the cock-sucking Marxist Liberals. Then, adding extra hot sauce to the recipe is the tendency for the OSR to attract lots of Conservatives, which reinforces the "design-space", the social environment, and other avenues of expression that are decidedly hostile to Liberals and the entire SJW mentality and world-view. The shrill, intolerant, tyrannical Marxist Liberal oppresses and offends many people--not just Conservatives--and such people join with others in strengthening the OSR and opposing the tyrannical and hateful SJW's.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 01:39:04 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 12:44:15 PM
If I may be so bold, I would ask if we could go back on topic please?

Well, in a way this whole sorry side track is an example of an answer to your question.  Not the only answer, but an example.  Why does any gaming decision (not merely OSR) trigger people so much.  Because they are threatened.  I don't mean in the sense of every argument means someone feels threatened.  That's would merely be stupid, even sophomoric misuse of psychology.  People can disagree all day long and not feel threatened.  If it reaches the point to where other people, who are not affecting you in the slightest, are a threat  to your self image just by saying that they might play pretend elf different than you, then that's where it comes in. 

Of course, that's because some of them are attaching deep importance to how they play a pretend elf.  If you suggest that its OK to play a pretend elf not out to save the world from a host of 'isms, then you are, in fact, suggesting that their "depth" is really kind of vapid and even shallow.  If they let that pass, that might force them, for example, to confront the fact that what their pretend elf does in the pretend world doesn't move an 'ism one way or the other, and we can't have that.

In the sense of "triggered", that's mostly it.  You'll get an opposing, even strong reaction from others that is more reasonable than that, because "OSR" conjures an image in their mind of characters with no name yet dying in the dungeon 10 minutes after play starts--a style that doesn't appeal to them, the same way as if you had suggested in the wrong crowd that their might be something to this Rap/Country/Metal/Opera music thing.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: estar on August 27, 2021, 01:59:29 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 27, 2021, 01:39:04 PM
You'll get an opposing, even strong reaction from others that is more reasonable than that, because "OSR" conjures an image in their mind of characters with no name yet dying in the dungeon 10 minutes after play starts--a style that doesn't appeal to them, the same way as if you had suggested in the wrong crowd that their might be something to this Rap/Country/Metal/Opera music thing.
It compounded by the fact that unlike other niches of the RPG hobbies built on open content like Fate, or niches with thriving third parties community like Savage Worlds, there is no center socially for the OSR. There nobody in the role that Evil Hat in the Fate Community, Paizo has for the Pathfinder/3.5 community, or Pinnacle has for Savage World.

The only center the OSR has is that it originated from several out print editions of Dungeons & Dragons. But that just a starting point, there is no one individual or group of individuals that socially over how one uses the material, in terms of mechanics, tone like Old School Play, adventure style like the dungeon.

As a result there was and continues to be a ever changing kaleidoscope of folks who play, promote, and publish under the OSR banner. So what the OSR for a specific individual depends on what twist of that kaleidoscope one is looking at.

Any post in this or another thread that make a claim about what the OSR is about is wrong. The OSR is only that way for that writer.

Sure there are large groups who share roughly similar interests. And dig into the history of any OSR group, you will find that is a specific individual, or smaller group that has had set the tone and provided some cohesion to their efforts. For that niche they fulfill the same role socially that Paizo, Pinnacle, Evil Hat does.

Even the understanding the dynamics socially and creatively of those group will not help gain an understanding of the OSR. Because of the available of open content, the low barrier created by digital technology, at any time all it take is one individual work for something else to appear.

We have recently seen this with Old School Essentials which has snow-balled since 2018 into its own niche despite everybody thinking the era of the true to original style clones being over. And the rise of OSE doesn't mean that Labyrinth Lord suddenly disappeared as well. Or any number of other OSR works tied to the B/X edition of D&D. Instead it just expanded the OSR as a whole as one more choice in a sea of choices.

The reality is that anytime anybody can pick up the available material and show the rest of us how it being done wrong. They don't have to wait for permission, they don't even have to play nice socially the way a Pathfinder author has to do with Paizo. Mind you I don't recommend folks being a dick about their preferences, but if one is worried about pleasing some other folks to do something within the OSR. it is a needless worry.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:32:16 PMYou are talking about tolerating other people's behavior whilst also advocating for the deaths of other people's harmless behaviour. If you can't see the hypocrisy there you are actually mentally ill. I have nothing more to say to you.
Since when is mass murder via bioterrorism harmless?

You're a troll, but I won't ignore that comment because that mindset leads people into totalitarianism. If the vaccine protects you, get it and leave us alone. If it doesn't, don't force it upon us and leave us alone. It's that simple. We don't want to risk the side effects of vaccines and vaccine surveillance for a disease that is mostly harmless (according to official statistics which count deaths with covid as deaths by covid, and you can't count the asymptomatic or the ones who didn't get tested, so the death rate is evem lower)

Throughout history people got past diseases without vaccines; even diseases like measles were practically insignificant way before they introduced vaccines. Same for smallpox, which had practically disappeared by the time it was "erradicated" through vaccines. That's how we got past the black plague, avian flu, swine flu and the Spanish flu. Not a single vaccine. Did thousands of yearly variants pop up? Nope. Why not? Covid is the only disease for which your immune system doesn't work and the entire world has to stop, even if you have more than 50% or 60% of the population vaccinated and low death counts (UK, US, Israel, Canada). Hell, even the 100% fully vaccinated Comoros is on CDC's red list. Iceland (70% fully vaxxed) is now resorting to natural immunity.


Think about this; places with low vaccination rates like Poland, India, Afghanistan, Venezuela, New Zealand, Alabama, Haiti, South Africa; they don't have a major covid problem. Why? Shouldn't Indians be dropping like flies, since delta started there and they had little to no vaccines and poor infrastructure? Yet they have lower death rates than the US or the UK...

This is the first time all the governments and media of the world mobilize to make sure everyone gets vaccinated; even people who are not at risk and could gain natural immunity. Do they do it out of kindness or is there another agenda?

What is Event 201? What is "gain of function research" and what viruses were they studying? What is ID2020 and quantum dot tattoo? Many coincidences if you ask me.

I know this is off topic but you brought this up and no reasonable person can be silent about this.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.

To be fair, you do sound a bit like an edgelord.  Particularly in your constant characterization of 5e as Mercer's type of game, when really Mercer's type of game isn't necessarily a good representation of 5e which does put the power back in the hands of the DM.  We've never fudged dice with 5e, I've never seen the designers of 5e encourage people to fudge dice, and fudging dice isn't some core concept of 5e.

As for OSR, have at it. It's a fine style of D&D. But you making it some chip on your shoulder and daring people to try and knock it off? Yeah, again, just you being a bit of an edgelord it seems. Play the game you want to play.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 01:32:16 PMYou are talking about tolerating other people's behavior whilst also advocating for the deaths of other people's harmless behaviour. If you can't see the hypocrisy there you are actually mentally ill. I have nothing more to say to you.
Since when is mass murder via bioterrorism harmless?

You're a troll, but I won't ignore that comment because that mindset leads people into totalitarianism. If the vaccine protects you, get it and leave us alone. If it doesn't, don't force it upon us and leave us alone. It's that simple. We don't want to risk the side effects of vaccines and vaccine surveillance for a disease that is mostly harmless (according to official statistics which count deaths with covid as deaths by covid, and you can't count the asymptomatic or the ones who didn't get tested, so the death rate is evem lower)

Throughout history people got past diseases without vaccines; even diseases like measles were practically insignificant way before they introduced vaccines. Same for smallpox, which had practically disappeared by the time it was "erradicated" through vaccines. That's how we got past the black plague, avian flu, swine flu and the Spanish flu. Not a single vaccine. Did thousands of yearly variants pop up? Nope. Why not? Covid is the only disease for which your immune system doesn't work and the entire world has to stop, even if you have more than 50% or 60% of the population vaccinated and low death counts (UK, US, Israel, Canada). Hell, even the 100% fully vaccinated Comoros is on CDC's red list. Iceland (70% fully vaxxed) is now resorting to natural immunity.


Think about this; places with low vaccination rates like Poland, India, Afghanistan, Venezuela, New Zealand, Alabama, Haiti, South Africa; they don't have a major covid problem. Why? Shouldn't Indians be dropping like flies, since delta started there and they had little to no vaccines and poor infrastructure? Yet they have lower death rates than the US or the UK...

This is the first time all the governments and media of the world mobilize to make sure everyone gets vaccinated; even people who are not at risk and could gain natural immunity. Do they do it out of kindness or is there another agenda?

What is Event 201? What is "gain of function research" and what viruses were they studying? What is ID2020 and quantum dot tattoo? Many coincidences if you ask me.

I know this is off topic but you brought this up and no reasonable person can be silent about this.
A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

But one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM

A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

But one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

If you want to continue this discussion do it at the thread dedicated to covid and vaccines. Funny how you can get banned in this forum for "racism" but not for saying conservative lives are worthless.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 27, 2021, 02:28:07 PM
Will WOTC soon tell us, that we must install wheelchair ramps in all of our dungeons?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM

A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

But one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

If you want to continue this discussion do it at the thread dedicated to covid and vaccines. Funny how you can get banned in this forum for "racism" but not for saying conservative lives are worthless.

Where are you coming from on that whine about "get banned in this forum for "racism"?"
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.

To be fair, you do sound a bit like an edgelord.  Particularly in your constant characterization of 5e as Mercer's type of game, when really Mercer's type of game isn't necessarily a good representation of 5e which does put the power back in the hands of the DM.  We've never fudged dice with 5e, I've never seen the designers of 5e encourage people to fudge dice, and fudging dice isn't some core concept of 5e.

As for OSR, have at it. It's a fine style of D&D. But you making it some chip on your shoulder and daring people to try and knock it off? Yeah, again, just you being a bit of an edgelord it seems. Play the game you want to play.

Here we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.  I would've preferred nuance and not the exact strawman I made coming alive to prove me right.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PMHere we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.
I don't like D&D 5e or fudging dice either.

Wild to call D&D 5e not actual D&D though...
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 03:42:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM

A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

But one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

If you want to continue this discussion do it at the thread dedicated to covid and vaccines. Funny how you can get banned in this forum for "racism" but not for saying conservative lives are worthless.

Where are you coming from on that whine about "get banned in this forum for "racism"?"

  Pundit banned a dude a few weeks ago, for... you guessed it, racism.  which is fine, however, talking about killing millions of people seems just fine...
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Lunamancer on August 27, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM
A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

You're against vaccinating children, grandma, and people who say they have an allergy? Sounds like an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory. The vax has FDA approval and numerous studies confirm it is safe.

QuoteBut one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

Trump only got 74 million votes. So what happened to the other 26+ million? Are you saying election fraud threw out 26+ million votes for Trump? Come on, man. Biden beat him fair and square with 81 million votes. Get over it.

Orange man bad. Orange vax good.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: Lunamancer on August 27, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM
A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

You're against vaccinating children, grandma, and people who say they have an allergy? Sounds like an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory. The vax has FDA approval and numerous studies confirm it is safe.

This really highlights the knuckle dragging lack of sapience of "conservatives". Your reading comprehension skills must have been learned from Fox news since Teachers aren't trained to teach the mental gymnastics required to come to such conclusions.

1) Children under 12 still cannot legally receive the vaccine in the US.

2) The immunocompromised compose of transplant patients and certain cancer patients. Yes some elderly are in that group. But they can all be vaccinated. The vaccine is not as effective for them and that is why booster shots were approved for them first.

3) People with a history of anaphylactic reactions to vaccines may or may not be recommended by their allergist to get the vaccine. Since everyone will contract delta at some point, vaccination is still recommended even if it has to be done in a hospital with staff ready to act.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Shasarak on August 27, 2021, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

How can I take you seriously when you cant even math properly.

Which is, when you think about it,  probably exactly why OSR triggers people.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 05:31:51 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 27, 2021, 05:23:04 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

How can I take you seriously when you cant even math properly.

Which is, when you think about it,  probably exactly why OSR triggers people.
My mistake, I meant "infinitely".

to an infinite extent or amount; without limit.
"there are issues here that could be expanded infinitely"
to a very great degree; immensely.
"a sweet, infinitely watchable performance"
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 05:35:29 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 03:42:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:46:12 PM
Where are you coming from on that whine about "get banned in this forum for "racism"?"

  Pundit banned a dude a few weeks ago, for... you guessed it, racism.  which is fine, however, talking about killing millions of people seems just fine...

Priorities, dude. It's okay to wish death upon millions for not trusting the government and big pharma, but God forbid we stop pandering to people who will still hate us no matter what we do!

Edit: Fortunately that hater got banned.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 05:56:54 PM
Giving a few to see if they give this jackass the boot, I know it's not instant because jfc this guy talks like he's never been smacked in the mouth. The ban for racism was kind questionable maybe a warning or something would've been more appropriate. But if there was ever a reason for a banhammer this guy is it. I feel dumber for having actually read his posts
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Lunamancer on August 27, 2021, 06:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
This really highlights the knuckle dragging lack of sapience of "conservatives". Your reading comprehension skills must have been learned from Fox news since Teachers aren't trained to teach the mental gymnastics required to come to such conclusions.

You're just mad because I roasted your antivax ass.

Quote1) Children under 12 still cannot legally receive the vaccine in the US.

Now that it's approved, doctors can administer the vaccine for "off-label" use to young children. Right now the number of new pediatric hospital admissions for COVID are at record levels, and you're still clinging on to this tired old antivaxxer line.

QuoteThe vaccine is not as effective for them

LOL! Riiiiight. Vaccines aren't effective. Tell that to small pox.

Quote3) People with a history of anaphylactic reactions to vaccines may or may not be recommended by their allergist to get the vaccine. Since everyone will contract delta at some point, vaccination is still recommended even if it has to be done in a hospital with staff ready to act.

You mean that same hospital staff that are refusing to get vaccinated themselves? Why would I trust those anti-vaxxers when there's a perfectly good table set up in the 7-11 parking lot?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 06:07:01 PM
Quote from: Lunamancer on August 27, 2021, 06:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
This really highlights the knuckle dragging lack of sapience of "conservatives". Your reading comprehension skills must have been learned from Fox news since Teachers aren't trained to teach the mental gymnastics required to come to such conclusions.

You're just mad because I roasted your antivax ass.

Quote1) Children under 12 still cannot legally receive the vaccine in the US.

Now that it's approved, doctors can administer the vaccine for "off-label" use to young children. Right now the number of new pediatric hospital admissions for COVID are at record levels, and you're still clinging on to this tired old antivaxxer line.

QuoteThe vaccine is not as effective for them

LOL! Riiiiight. Vaccines aren't effective. Tell that to small pox.

Quote3) People with a history of anaphylactic reactions to vaccines may or may not be recommended by their allergist to get the vaccine. Since everyone will contract delta at some point, vaccination is still recommended even if it has to be done in a hospital with staff ready to act.

You mean that same hospital staff that are refusing to get vaccinated themselves? Why would I trust those anti-vaxxers when there's a perfectly good table set up in the 7-11 parking lot?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2021, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Case in point:
1) All actual scientific evidence suggest that vaccination provides stronger protection than recovering from COVID-19.

2) All actual scientific evidence suggest that the vaccinated spread significantly less than those who recovered from COVID-19.

3) Getting vaccinated is still recommended for those who have been infected.

4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

Nothing political here. Yet "conservatives" make it political and we all know why. COVID-19 did hurt city congested minorities more than white people so they are pro-plague. That is no longer the case because of vaccination, but it's a little to late for conservatives to back out now without just admitting that they are suicidally racist.

And yet y'all wonder why actual sapient people would rather avoid having conservatives at the table?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread. Post off-topic like this again and you'll be banned.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2021, 06:14:19 PM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 10:26:47 AM
Quote from: Zalman on August 27, 2021, 09:53:26 AM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Good thing you arent at my table then none of us are vaccinated.

Good for you! Antibodies are better protection than vaccination. Gamers who insist on vaccinating to avoid antibodies are a danger to all of us RPGers, and are surely the worst sort of sociopath.
Case in point:
1) All actual scientific evidence suggest that vaccination provides stronger protection than recovering from COVID-19.

2) All actual scientific evidence suggest that the vaccinated spread significantly less than those who recovered from COVID-19.

3) Getting vaccinated is still recommended for those who have been infected.

4) All evidence says getting COVID-19 is infinity more risky than being vaccinated.

Nothing political here. Yet "conservatives" make it political and we all know why. COVID-19 did hurt city congested minorities more than white people so they are pro-plague. That is no longer the case because of vaccination, but it's a little to late for conservatives to back out now without just admitting that they are suicidally racist.

And yet y'all wonder why actual sapient people would rather avoid having conservatives at the table?

And you never stopped to wonder why people aren't getting the vaccine? You just label them as conservative, and to you conservative means racist and move on. Have you ever stopped to think maybe it's just lack of trust in institutions that have done something to damage that trust in the past? and that while the scientific method is in fact a good way of doing things, people don't trust the people who are telling them about the findings and how easy it is to manipulate the data or how we have had them do shady things in the past.

Fact: The pandemic was used as an excuse to greatly expand the power of the governing bodies all over the world.
Also fact: during the pandemic governments, and hospitals manipulated the data on covid19 in order to secure more power and more funding.
Also Fact: The CDC and other government organizations have performed illegal medical experiments on the us citizens without their knowledge or consent.
Also Fact: There are several conflicts of interest between the makers of the vaccine and government entities.
Also Fact: There was financial incentive to rush the vaccine through the trials, and has not been as thoroughly tested as known vaccines for things such as the flu, chicken pox, tetanus etc.

And now for other circumstantially related facts:
All medication produces various effects on the body, the desired effect is called the theraputic effect. IE You take ibuprofen for a headache, the desired effect is a pain reliever. A side effect is an undesired effect or effect other than the desired effect. Keeping on with ibuprofen, side effects can include stomach aches and even ulcers, i believe also over a period time damage to bone density as well as an effect on the liver. Given the usual time for these side effects to manifest over using it a few times, you have decided that these side effects are acceptable weighed against the desired effect of pain relief. Vaccines are no different.

After going on about my body my choice chanting it down the streets and not shutting the fuck up about it when it came to things like abortion where you are literally making a choice to terminate another life, now all of a sudden getting this vaccine is no longer the choice of the person receiving it.

Also if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?

This post has nothing to do with the topic. Post off-topic like this again and you will be banned.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2021, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Lunamancer on August 27, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM
A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

You're against vaccinating children, grandma, and people who say they have an allergy? Sounds like an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory. The vax has FDA approval and numerous studies confirm it is safe.

QuoteBut one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

Trump only got 74 million votes. So what happened to the other 26+ million? Are you saying election fraud threw out 26+ million votes for Trump? Come on, man. Biden beat him fair and square with 81 million votes. Get over it.

Orange man bad. Orange vax good.

This is completely off-topic to this thread. Post off-topic again and you will be banned.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 27, 2021, 06:19:26 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: Ocule on August 27, 2021, 11:25:02 AMAlso if I understand your post correctly, you hold the position that any conservative who voices their opinion should lose their job? If this is correct what in the actual fuck is wrong with you?
No, every conservative should lose their life.

That blessed reality is too difficult to achieve in an ethical fashion. Both finding a method specific enough to be ethical and a method that does not corrupt the performers. You asshole pro-life chanting, child murderers are not worth the air you breathe. Regardless of whatever stupid twisted faux logic you decide to replace peer reviewed science with. Conservatives losing their jobs is woefully short of what they actually deserve.

Right, you know what? I think this one goes right over the line. So forget my earlier warning.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Shasarak on August 27, 2021, 07:22:19 PM
The OSR claims another victim.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 27, 2021, 09:29:24 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 27, 2021, 07:22:19 PM
The OSR claims another victim.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Cheers, Shasarak! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.

To be fair, you do sound a bit like an edgelord.  Particularly in your constant characterization of 5e as Mercer's type of game, when really Mercer's type of game isn't necessarily a good representation of 5e which does put the power back in the hands of the DM.  We've never fudged dice with 5e, I've never seen the designers of 5e encourage people to fudge dice, and fudging dice isn't some core concept of 5e.

As for OSR, have at it. It's a fine style of D&D. But you making it some chip on your shoulder and daring people to try and knock it off? Yeah, again, just you being a bit of an edgelord it seems. Play the game you want to play.

Here we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.  I would've preferred nuance and not the exact strawman I made coming alive to prove me right.

The dice fudging part in no way, shape or form is one of the reasons I called you an edgelord. Not liking 5e is in no way shape or form a reason I gave for calling you an edgelord. You including those in your response however when I made it damn fucking clear I don't fudge dice, 5e doesn't fudge dice, the OSR is a fine style of play and you should play what you like does however further your rep as an edgelord. Stop trying so hard. You have our attention without begging for it.

And you calling my response a strawman when all you just did is strawman my response is even more evidence. Do you think people think you're cool if you're a dick to your peers?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 10:54:22 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 03:42:52 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:46:12 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 27, 2021, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Rhedyn on August 27, 2021, 02:17:45 PM

A pandemic that should be over, is killing children who cannot be vaccinated because of idiots like you.

If it was just conservatives dying and not the immunocompromised, those potentially allergic to the vaccine, and children also dying, then I would not care.

But one innocent life in the US is worth more than the 100+ million conservative lives in the US. (I'm not extending this principal to the whole globe)

If you want to continue this discussion do it at the thread dedicated to covid and vaccines. Funny how you can get banned in this forum for "racism" but not for saying conservative lives are worthless.

Where are you coming from on that whine about "get banned in this forum for "racism"?"

  Pundit banned a dude a few weeks ago, for... you guessed it, racism.  which is fine, however, talking about killing millions of people seems just fine...

You mean the guy praising the actual murderer?  (not being sarcastic or snarky - I think I might have missed the one you're referencing?)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on August 28, 2021, 02:29:05 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PMHere we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.

I don't agree with Rhedyn on plenty of stuff - but I agree that you're not just expressing dislike for 5E. As I noted back in reply #21 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185024/#msg1185024), you're actively insulting people who do enjoy 5E - calling them ignorant and cheaters who don't understand the right way to game. That's edgy behavior, and it puts many people off.

There are plenty of people who are happy playing either 5E or OSR, but if you come at them telling them they're wrong and stupid for enjoying 5E, then they're naturally going to push back - even if they might also be happy playing OSR.

Replying to your earlier post:

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 25, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
From my view, it's just a preference. I'm fine with OSR, but I'm also fine with any other RPG style. As long as people are playing from the same understanding with each other, then they're not cheating - they're just playing differently. From my view, preferring one style of RPG or another isn't proof of any real-world virtue or accomplishment. No one is slaying real dragons - we're all just playing make-believe.

I am liberal when it comes to interpreting DnD rules. I'm not full on worshiping the bible of Gygax like some OSR people are but I gave my opinion of why I find the storygaming and critical role to be the wrong way to play. It's as close as I will ever get to saying such a thing. But only because it is the wrong way. In the same way bringing hockey sticks to a football game is wrong. And then arguing that you can play football anyway you want because some guy on you tube said so.  Feel free to disagree.

Yes, I can play any way I want. It's a hobby game played for fun. It doesn't matter what Gygax said or what some guy on Youtube says. In my own game with my own group, we get to choose our own rules and style. We can play by-the-book D&D1E, or we can play a homebrew combination of Talislanta and Gamma World, or our own 5E variant.

I personally find it especially weird for "old school" to say that everyone has to play in X style or they're wrong - since back in the 1970s when I started playing RPGs, the thing I found really awesome about them was that you *didn't* have to stick to just one way to play. There were some Killer DMs and some Monty Haul DMs and some worldbuilding DMs and some dramatic DMs. Some people homebrewed their own rules and strange old rules; some people played by the book.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 28, 2021, 05:46:22 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 28, 2021, 02:29:05 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PMHere we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.

I don't agree with Rhedyn on plenty of stuff - but I agree that you're not just expressing dislike for 5E. As I noted back in reply #21 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185024/#msg1185024), you're actively insulting people who do enjoy 5E - calling them ignorant and cheaters who don't understand the right way to game. That's edgy behavior, and it puts many people off.

There are plenty of people who are happy playing either 5E or OSR, but if you come at them telling them they're wrong and stupid for enjoying 5E, then they're naturally going to push back - even if they might also be happy playing OSR.

Replying to your earlier post:

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 25, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
From my view, it's just a preference. I'm fine with OSR, but I'm also fine with any other RPG style. As long as people are playing from the same understanding with each other, then they're not cheating - they're just playing differently. From my view, preferring one style of RPG or another isn't proof of any real-world virtue or accomplishment. No one is slaying real dragons - we're all just playing make-believe.

I am liberal when it comes to interpreting DnD rules. I'm not full on worshiping the bible of Gygax like some OSR people are but I gave my opinion of why I find the storygaming and critical role to be the wrong way to play. It's as close as I will ever get to saying such a thing. But only because it is the wrong way. In the same way bringing hockey sticks to a football game is wrong. And then arguing that you can play football anyway you want because some guy on you tube said so.  Feel free to disagree.

Yes, I can play any way I want. It's a hobby game played for fun. It doesn't matter what Gygax said or what some guy on Youtube says. In my own game with my own group, we get to choose our own rules and style. We can play by-the-book D&D1E, or we can play a homebrew combination of Talislanta and Gamma World, or our own 5E variant.

I personally find it especially weird for "old school" to say that everyone has to play in X style or they're wrong - since back in the 1970s when I started playing RPGs, the thing I found really awesome about them was that you *didn't* have to stick to just one way to play. There were some Killer DMs and some Monty Haul DMs and some worldbuilding DMs and some dramatic DMs. Some people homebrewed their own rules and strange old rules; some people played by the book.

Greetings!

I have to agree with you here, Jhkim, especially with your closing paragraph, e.g "I personally find it especially weird..."Back in the day--as well as with more than a few gamers nowadays--we would play D&D, but also add in weird elements from Arduin, Palladium, Talislanta, and such like, as you also testified. And it was all considered "D&D". That kind of approach was certainly not "Tournament AD&D"--but I suppose it would fall squarely under the umbrella of "Gonzo D&D". Certainly, while the two styles of running a campaign were distinctly different back then--as well as now--they are both cherished traditions of D&D gaming.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mind Crime on August 28, 2021, 06:30:06 AM
Think about the amount of gaming material this forum would generate if everyone paid their joeskytax.  :)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Omega on August 28, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PM
Whats Role Playing? To a storygamer - Everything on Earth.

Everything except those powergaming min/maxing bigots.

And yet invariably the worst powergaming and abuse of being "in character" I have seen or gotten complain reports on... is from storygamers.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:15:19 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 28, 2021, 02:29:05 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PMHere we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.

I don't agree with Rhedyn on plenty of stuff - but I agree that you're not just expressing dislike for 5E. As I noted back in reply #21 (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185024/#msg1185024), you're actively insulting people who do enjoy 5E - calling them ignorant and cheaters who don't understand the right way to game. That's edgy behavior, and it puts many people off.

There are plenty of people who are happy playing either 5E or OSR, but if you come at them telling them they're wrong and stupid for enjoying 5E, then they're naturally going to push back - even if they might also be happy playing OSR.

Replying to your earlier post:

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on August 25, 2021, 06:44:51 PM
From my view, it's just a preference. I'm fine with OSR, but I'm also fine with any other RPG style. As long as people are playing from the same understanding with each other, then they're not cheating - they're just playing differently. From my view, preferring one style of RPG or another isn't proof of any real-world virtue or accomplishment. No one is slaying real dragons - we're all just playing make-believe.

I am liberal when it comes to interpreting DnD rules. I'm not full on worshiping the bible of Gygax like some OSR people are but I gave my opinion of why I find the storygaming and critical role to be the wrong way to play. It's as close as I will ever get to saying such a thing. But only because it is the wrong way. In the same way bringing hockey sticks to a football game is wrong. And then arguing that you can play football anyway you want because some guy on you tube said so.  Feel free to disagree.

Yes, I can play any way I want. It's a hobby game played for fun. It doesn't matter what Gygax said or what some guy on Youtube says. In my own game with my own group, we get to choose our own rules and style. We can play by-the-book D&D1E, or we can play a homebrew combination of Talislanta and Gamma World, or our own 5E variant.

I personally find it especially weird for "old school" to say that everyone has to play in X style or they're wrong - since back in the 1970s when I started playing RPGs, the thing I found really awesome about them was that you *didn't* have to stick to just one way to play. There were some Killer DMs and some Monty Haul DMs and some worldbuilding DMs and some dramatic DMs. Some people homebrewed their own rules and strange old rules; some people played by the book.

I'm sick to death of repeating myself. So I will make this incredibly clear. Just because I am saying the Critical Role storygaming way is wrong. Doesn't mean that I am saying my way is right and everyone else is wrong. RPG Pundit himself has much the same attitude. I am saying one way is completely wrong. There are other ways I have an opinion on and disagree with but are not wrong. And my way that I prefer. But I never said my way was the right way. I am getting tired of repeating the same few points interrupted by mentally ill leftists. I am not stopping anyone from playing DnD how they want so taking it so personally that I insulted the way you play DnD shouldn't affect you. If your problem with my posts is that I just don't like Critical Role then I am sorry but my opinion on that is not changing. I would be happy to live and let live if their bullshit didn't affect nearly every campaign I've tried to run for 5 years. To the point I had to capitulate to these bastards or just not play DnD due to lack of choice in groups. I'll admit I'm bitter but wouldn't you be if every group just played in the ways you didn't like and you were either forced to do it their way or just not play in the vain hope this fad will pass and you'll find groups in 5 to 10 years time?

As an aside, I just ran my first b/x game with the same group I was forced to do storygaming with. They said they were getting bored of that. So I offered the change up of OSR style rules. I'm no scientist so don't take this as data but that same group that insisted on no death and "just having fun" just had fun with my first session. They all actually went out of their way to tell me how much fun the dungeon was. Which has never happened to me before. I'm not actually that confident in my skills as a GM so that was really nice to hear. Someone even died and they just rolled up a new character in 10 minutes. No big deal.

Also can we get past this dumb idea of Edgelords just being people who don't follow the consensus. That's pathetic. I am not an edgy person just because I don't like 5E. Or I'm a "try hard". I don't even do all the hardcore things a "try hard" is supposed to do. I just enforce the rules fairly without hostility and allow the results of the dice to stand. Very try hard of me. An Edgelord is someone who acts intentionally edgy for attention "I'm gunna rape that NPC and describe in detail how I do it." not someone who has an opinion you disagree with. That's just as effective as calling me a bigot for the same reasons.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: Omega on August 28, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PM
Whats Role Playing? To a storygamer - Everything on Earth.

Everything except those powergaming min/maxing bigots.

And yet invariably the worst powergaming and abuse of being "in character" I have seen or gotten complain reports on... is from storygamers.

"Okay so I'm a tiefling and my father is Asmodeus and I'm like super oppresed by the bigoted humans.  Actually me and Dad get on really well but I'm super rebellious because I have this lesbian relationship with an Elf from Africa. And Dad gave me awesome powers to crush mortals with."

"That's.. a bit to overpowered for my tastes could you change that up a bit. I'm not giving you awesome powers just because your backstory says you have them. Also we don't have Africa in this setting."

"OMG you are so restrictive an railroading. Y'know, Matt Mercer said we can play DnD in our own way. This game is shit!"

"Okay, I'll ignore that. I told you before you joined that we're going for a low fantasy low power vibe. There are plenty of other groups for you if you don't like that.

"Stop excluding me!"

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 28, 2021, 09:24:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 10:51:49 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 27, 2021, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2021, 08:33:13 AM
I'm just getting into OSR related stuff after nearly 15 years playing Pen and Paper RPGs and Wargames. I'm really into a lot of the OSR mentality. Specifically I love that the GM should be the final arbiter of the rules. Great. I've had so much bullshit in the past 5 years from the Critical Role lot whenever they worm their way into my games.

I've recently got into several arguments online and IRL. And it always starts the same way. I've always believed that stories come OUT of whatever game you are playing. And that story is exclusive to and can ONLY happen in the group you are in. I say what I have said above. That I am really starting to like the OSR and I think that's how I want to run my games. Players shouldn't come in with this pre-determined epic adventure they want to play. And I'm not a fan of the Mercer style of fudging dice and pretending to play something resembling DnD in a much more scripted and theatrical way. It doesn't matter where I am, /tg/, Reddit, etc. People seem to get really personally offended when I just mention the OSR in passing as something I'm starting to like. I never say my way is the best way, just that it's my way and I prefer it for my games. I'm not trying to change anyone else's minds. But they always go back to several shouted out assertions. Especially after they died to a goblin at level 1 and have to make a new character.  I didn't make the goblin OP. I just enforced the rules fairly and you had some crappy roles. I am not fudging the dice for you.

"You're just a fucking grognard. DnD is much better now than that old stuff."

"omg you're demanding DnD change to meet your narrow expectations."

"You just want to be an edgy try hard making it hard for no reason. DnD should be fun. Not hard."

I don't think I'm anything special as a GM. I just really want to go back to the idea of DnD as a game of chance. It doesn't always go like you expect. But you have fun and laugh about the dumb rolls afterwards.

To be fair, you do sound a bit like an edgelord.  Particularly in your constant characterization of 5e as Mercer's type of game, when really Mercer's type of game isn't necessarily a good representation of 5e which does put the power back in the hands of the DM.  We've never fudged dice with 5e, I've never seen the designers of 5e encourage people to fudge dice, and fudging dice isn't some core concept of 5e.

As for OSR, have at it. It's a fine style of D&D. But you making it some chip on your shoulder and daring people to try and knock it off? Yeah, again, just you being a bit of an edgelord it seems. Play the game you want to play.

Here we go. Wanting to actually play DnD and not fudge dice is now "edgelord" behavior. Really showed me up here. Not liking 5E is edgelord behaviour.  I would've preferred nuance and not the exact strawman I made coming alive to prove me right.

The dice fudging part in no way, shape or form is one of the reasons I called you an edgelord. Not liking 5e is in no way shape or form a reason I gave for calling you an edgelord. You including those in your response however when I made it damn fucking clear I don't fudge dice, 5e doesn't fudge dice, the OSR is a fine style of play and you should play what you like does however further your rep as an edgelord. Stop trying so hard. You have our attention without begging for it.

And you calling my response a strawman when all you just did is strawman my response is even more evidence. Do you think people think you're cool if you're a dick to your peers?
It really does seem as though being a dick to peers is a big part of theRPGsite's "this is Sparta" appeal.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 10:06:03 AM
I didn't come here to "be a dick to my peers". IRL I am too quiet and I never voice my opinion for fear of causing a confrontation

I'm really not comfortable with the way this thread is going. I just wanted to see what people's opinions of the OSR are and how to combat people being aggressively offended that I have a philosophical disagreement with the way they play the game.

This is becoming more about me and how I run my games than I would like. I can't defend against personal attacks from strangers on the internet because none of you know me. But what really grinds me gears is when I give an opinion and you start assigning negative traits to me to justify your own arguments. That makes me defensive when what I should've done is not respond. For 6 months I've been in a game as a GM where I've had to be a "storygamer" because that group was very new and that was what they expected of DnD. I knew that if I voiced my opinion to them or tried to enforce my way of doing things they would leave. So I played the long game. Didn't say a word about how I liked my games. Never voiced my opinion or tried to be obnoxious. Did the best I could as a GM to make them feel comfortable and welcome. Gave them as fun a game as I could manage under the restrictions. Then they got bored. I got the opportunity to do things my way and they liked it. I don't run the games I like as if they are hardcore tactical simulations or "try hard edgelord" stuff. Again, that's an assumption certain members here made about me and my style of GMing. I've said my style of GMing several times to justify myself to people who are probably still going to take offense and project negative traits onto me. I do not want to be a hostile or confrontational GM. I do not intentionally provoke or railroad my group. But when I've designed a dungeon full of traps and monsters and one player decides to run through the whole thing by themselves they will inevitably bump into the monsters I had already placed there or a trap. And they will have to figure out a way out of that situation. I find just telling the players what they want to hear to be condescending. I find that 5E and 5E culture encourages that playstyle. Feel free to disagree. But it's why I don't like 5E or the expectations of playing 5E I get from other players. And the whole point of my original topic was to discuss what to do when people get offended that I even mention that I like OSR and the Old school mentality.

I like OSR style play. Old school mentality where foolish actions are punished by the consequences of your actions. I don't see that as try hard or edgy. It's not, actually. I refuse to justify that. I just had a game with a group who enjoyed it. They didn't see it as particularly "hardcore". They just liked having choices and consequences both mechanically and in the story that mattered. 

I feel like I'm waffling on trying to justify myself to complete strangers. I'm just going to stop doing that.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 28, 2021, 10:09:21 AM
  Happydaze regularly trolls (honestly mostly in jest) and routinely name calls people (probably in jest, but I prefer not to say anything like he says except face to face) as a form of greeting.  I do not think I would worry myself too much about it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 28, 2021, 10:55:02 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on August 28, 2021, 10:09:21 AM
  Happydaze regularly trolls (honestly mostly in jest) and routinely name calls people (probably in jest, but I prefer not to say anything like he says except face to face) as a form of greeting.  I do not think I would worry myself too much about it.
I certainly wasn't trying to piss on the guy. But if the wind shifted, it's not my fault.. ;)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mistwell on August 28, 2021, 12:04:20 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 10:06:03 AMBunch of stuff

Look KT, let's just focus on the essentials of you position:

1) Dice Fudging: Where are you getting that Critical Role's dice fudging is representative of how people play 5e? Critical Role started as a Pathfinder game when 5e didn't even exist. No 5e designers that I know of ever encouraged dice fudging. No adventures for 5e encourage dice fudging. 5e brought back lots more random charts, and random encounters, over more recent prior editions. It has rolling for stats as the primary method of generating ability scores.

2) Story Gaming: Where are you getting that 5e is more focused on storygaming? It's not. 5e has more of a return to old school gaming built into it than most modern versions of D&D which game before it. They hired guys like Pundit for a reason to consult on it. 5e adventures have trended to more sandbox and less railroad than other modern versions of D&D. 5e out out a "Basic" edition with 4 classes and 4 races stripped down to essentials for free, for a reason. 5e's arguably most "storygamer" element of inspiration dice is almost entirely ignored by 5e gamers at most games. What gave you the impression that Critical Role represents 5e in terms of storygaming? It doesn't.

3) OSR: Nobody here is bothered you like the OSR or don't like 5e. The only people on your case are focusing on your apparent insulting of those who do like 5e and repeated claims that Critical Role is a fair representation of how people play 5e when there is zero evidence to support that. 5e was being played by guys like me who started in 1978 with D&D well before Critical Role touched it, and will continue to play it their way long after Critical Role moves on to something else. Critical Role isn't 5e. It's its own thing which is, temporarily, using some 5e rules.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Mishihari on August 28, 2021, 02:20:47 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:15:19 AM
As an aside, I just ran my first b/x game with the same group I was forced to do storygaming with. They said they were getting bored of that. So I offered the change up of OSR style rules. I'm no scientist so don't take this as data but that same group that insisted on no death and "just having fun" just had fun with my first session. They all actually went out of their way to tell me how much fun the dungeon was. Which has never happened to me before. I'm not actually that confident in my skills as a GM so that was really nice to hear. Someone even died and they just rolled up a new character in 10 minutes. No big deal.

Good job on that bit.  Getting people to try new stuff can be challenging at best.  I hope you can keep this group going
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on August 29, 2021, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:15:19 AM
I am not stopping anyone from playing DnD how they want so taking it so personally that I insulted the way you play DnD shouldn't affect you. If your problem with my posts is that I just don't like Critical Role then I am sorry but my opinion on that is not changing. I would be happy to live and let live if their bullshit didn't affect nearly every campaign I've tried to run for 5 years. To the point I had to capitulate to these bastards or just not play DnD due to lack of choice in groups. I'll admit I'm bitter but wouldn't you be if every group just played in the ways you didn't like and you were either forced to do it their way or just not play in the vain hope this fad will pass and you'll find groups in 5 to 10 years time?

King Tyranno - I sympathize with you, really. I've had times in my life when I really wanted to do something different in gaming and the groups I had available were into something else. For me, it was often that people only wanted to play D&D and at the time I wanted to play something else. Still, fundamentally your choices come down to simply:

1) Leave them and either find other ways to play - like online games - or just don't game.
2) Find some way to compromise and play with them.

It seems to me that you're frustrated and you're lashing out - but it will just make both you and them miserable to fight over taste in games - with you calling them bastards and then keeping playing with them. If playing with them isn't and can't be fun for you, just don't do it and go with #1. There are a lot more online games these days over Zoom and other platforms. As another possibility, you could try suggesting other activities, like board games, miniatures, etc. My weekly RPG group switched to playing the board game Gloomhaven for nearly two years.

As for #2, I don't know you or these people, but maybe there is some compromise that would be both fun for you and fun for them. One thought that comes to mind is switching genres from high fantasy to a genre where protagonist death is more expected, like Call of Cthulhu. Call of Cthulhu often has a lot of story focus to it, but it also has terrible consequences for bad choices (or sometimes randomly from good choices). There are a lot of other possibilities, though, like a game where the is competition with non-deadly consequences - for me, superheroes and pulp action did this. For example, Champions had a lot of very tactical combat and we let the dice rolls stand, but the end result of failure was unconsciousness rather than death.

Whichever way, I hope you can find a way to have fun.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 29, 2021, 10:20:52 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.


And thus, the implementation of WOTC's One True Way.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 30, 2021, 04:23:33 AM
It's 2021 and all comics are Squirrel Girl.

(https://i.etsystatic.com/6709817/r/il/aa472a/2189751605/il_794xN.2189751605_9122.jpg)

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Warder on August 30, 2021, 04:58:55 AM
Mmm, the Demolition Man shells. Thats some old school reference there.

OSR for me means mechanics that are enjoyable and supposed to make sense to the players, making the ''narrative'' handwaving aproach thats so prevalent these days less interesting. Old School Roleplaying also implies its back to the basics, at least imho.

I think the moment i realised what was up with the ''destroy the old, usher in a new golden age'' mentality was in the last book of Glen Cooks Black Company. It was there the protag saves a young girl with her hear full of this ideology from her old bastich masters. She then proceeds to betray the ''good guis'' and as her reward she gets reduced to breeding stock. She gets saved, but the main thing i took from the story is her revelation that the ideology promised that same ''out with the old, in with the new'' dreck. Also Girl Genious webcomic has one moment where particulary bloodthirsty omnicidal maniac gets through accelerated aging, yet stays alive. He finds himself no longer omnicidal that much; ,,But ive done such horrible things!''(paraphrased). Another guy tells him ''Kid. We all did. And then we grew up.''
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: dkabq on August 30, 2021, 06:54:37 AM
Quote from: jhkim on August 29, 2021, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:15:19 AM
I am not stopping anyone from playing DnD how they want so taking it so personally that I insulted the way you play DnD shouldn't affect you. If your problem with my posts is that I just don't like Critical Role then I am sorry but my opinion on that is not changing. I would be happy to live and let live if their bullshit didn't affect nearly every campaign I've tried to run for 5 years. To the point I had to capitulate to these bastards or just not play DnD due to lack of choice in groups. I'll admit I'm bitter but wouldn't you be if every group just played in the ways you didn't like and you were either forced to do it their way or just not play in the vain hope this fad will pass and you'll find groups in 5 to 10 years time?

King Tyranno - I sympathize with you, really. I've had times in my life when I really wanted to do something different in gaming and the groups I had available were into something else. For me, it was often that people only wanted to play D&D and at the time I wanted to play something else. Still, fundamentally your choices come down to simply:

1) Leave them and either find other ways to play - like online games - or just don't game.
2) Find some way to compromise and play with them.

It seems to me that you're frustrated and you're lashing out - but it will just make both you and them miserable to fight over taste in games - with you calling them bastards and then keeping playing with them. If playing with them isn't and can't be fun for you, just don't do it and go with #1. There are a lot more online games these days over Zoom and other platforms. As another possibility, you could try suggesting other activities, like board games, miniatures, etc. My weekly RPG group switched to playing the board game Gloomhaven for nearly two years.

As for #2, I don't know you or these people, but maybe there is some compromise that would be both fun for you and fun for them. One thought that comes to mind is switching genres from high fantasy to a genre where protagonist death is more expected, like Call of Cthulhu. Call of Cthulhu often has a lot of story focus to it, but it also has terrible consequences for bad choices (or sometimes randomly from good choices). There are a lot of other possibilities, though, like a game where the is competition with non-deadly consequences - for me, superheroes and pulp action did this. For example, Champions had a lot of very tactical combat and we let the dice rolls stand, but the end result of failure was unconsciousness rather than death.

Whichever way, I hope you can find a way to have fun.

There are reasons that I took a decades-long hiatus from TTRPGs and got my RPG fix from CRPGs. I want to only play with people that I enjoy being around and I want to play the kind of games that I want to play. Some might see it as a strident position. I see it as good management of my time and energy. And I do have some flexibility in terms of game-play; not so much regarding the people that I play with.

YMMV.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 08:53:53 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.

My biggest nightmare for DnD is what happened with Warhammer Age of Shitmar. The very first boxed release had a two page leaflet. That was the rule book. No rules on army composition, point values or anything like that. "just do whatever" The rules were essentially "roll dice, move wee men. Have fun. Buy more."

I can foresee a similar thing for DnD. I like the simplicity of b/x. But I can foresee WotC "simplifying" the rules so much that they forget to mention you roll dice. There are no stats because DnD is a party game now bigot! You use a Jenga Tower or tokens to resolve challenges but if you don't like it tell the Dungeon Friend (changed from Master you fucking fascist) what you'd like to do instead and the Frienderino has to do it. Because your consent is the most important part of DnD.  But you also have to buy the 200 page Player's Conduct Handbook. Which explains proper pronoun usage. Who is allowed to game and who is not and how to make your theater of the mind games wheelchair accessible. Along with some links to friendly anti fascist groups and Porn Stars you can donate to. The final page is an advert for the monster manual.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 30, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 08:53:53 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.

My biggest nightmare for DnD is what happened with Warhammer Age of Shitmar. The very first boxed release had a two page leaflet. That was the rule book. No rules on army composition, point values or anything like that. "just do whatever" The rules were essentially "roll dice, move wee men. Have fun. Buy more."

I can foresee a similar thing for DnD. I like the simplicity of b/x. But I can foresee WotC "simplifying" the rules so much that they forget to mention you roll dice. There are no stats because DnD is a party game now bigot! You use a Jenga Tower or tokens to resolve challenges but if you don't like it tell the Dungeon Friend (changed from Master you fucking fascist) what you'd like to do instead and the Frienderino has to do it. Because your consent is the most important part of DnD.  But you also have to buy the 200 page Player's Conduct Handbook. Which explains proper pronoun usage. Who is allowed to game and who is not and how to make your theater of the mind games wheelchair accessible. Along with some links to friendly anti fascist groups and Porn Stars you can donate to. The final page is an advert for the monster manual.
4e is a better comparison with Age of Sigmar as it was a radical redesign. Also, both continued to be refined over time, but it doesn't help them to be accepted by old players that liked what came before and refuse to take up something new.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 30, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 08:53:53 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.

My biggest nightmare for DnD is what happened with Warhammer Age of Shitmar. The very first boxed release had a two page leaflet. That was the rule book. No rules on army composition, point values or anything like that. "just do whatever" The rules were essentially "roll dice, move wee men. Have fun. Buy more."

I can foresee a similar thing for DnD. I like the simplicity of b/x. But I can foresee WotC "simplifying" the rules so much that they forget to mention you roll dice. There are no stats because DnD is a party game now bigot! You use a Jenga Tower or tokens to resolve challenges but if you don't like it tell the Dungeon Friend (changed from Master you fucking fascist) what you'd like to do instead and the Frienderino has to do it. Because your consent is the most important part of DnD.  But you also have to buy the 200 page Player's Conduct Handbook. Which explains proper pronoun usage. Who is allowed to game and who is not and how to make your theater of the mind games wheelchair accessible. Along with some links to friendly anti fascist groups and Porn Stars you can donate to. The final page is an advert for the monster manual.
4e is a better comparison with Age of Sigmar as it was a radical redesign. Also, both continued to be refined over time, but it doesn't help them to be accepted by old players that liked what came before and refuse to take up something new.

I actually agree with you for the most part about 4E. But it's not that the games were new. It's that they were new and worse than what they were supposed to replace. I will never completely accept 4e but I can see the appeal as a weird video gamey war gamey sort of abomination. I can see why some people would like that. But it's not my cup of tea. It also didn't have wide reaching consequences for my hobby at the time. As most people I knew hated it too. So we all just stayed on 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Shitmar on the other hand is a bad He Man rip off. If they actually ran with that it'd have been cool but it either does things too different from WFB or does them too similar in a lesser fashion. If it were an alternative to WFB I wouldn't mind. But as a replacement that erased WFB to the point you can't even play WFB in a GW store that really annoyed me. As someone in the UK. If you can't play your Warhammer in a GW store you are fucked basically. As they have the monopoly on game stores and LGSs mostly ignore Warhammer due to GW getting weird with independent stores selling their shit.

Thankfully 3D printers go brrr so I was able to find a local group that plays WFB and doesn't mind 3D printed minis either. But Shitmar is still shit. And yes I know about Old World. But GW probably won't let me rock up with my 3D printed Bretonnians from Lost Kingdom Miniatures. (great company, great models btw.) and I'm just on the Dark Side now that I know I can print minis in resin to the same quality as GW for pennies. 20p per mini to be exact. Reminds me of when it was feasible to spend my pocket money on GW minis.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Ocule on August 30, 2021, 10:47:56 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 10:25:49 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 30, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 30, 2021, 08:53:53 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.

My biggest nightmare for DnD is what happened with Warhammer Age of Shitmar. The very first boxed release had a two page leaflet. That was the rule book. No rules on army composition, point values or anything like that. "just do whatever" The rules were essentially "roll dice, move wee men. Have fun. Buy more."

I can foresee a similar thing for DnD. I like the simplicity of b/x. But I can foresee WotC "simplifying" the rules so much that they forget to mention you roll dice. There are no stats because DnD is a party game now bigot! You use a Jenga Tower or tokens to resolve challenges but if you don't like it tell the Dungeon Friend (changed from Master you fucking fascist) what you'd like to do instead and the Frienderino has to do it. Because your consent is the most important part of DnD.  But you also have to buy the 200 page Player's Conduct Handbook. Which explains proper pronoun usage. Who is allowed to game and who is not and how to make your theater of the mind games wheelchair accessible. Along with some links to friendly anti fascist groups and Porn Stars you can donate to. The final page is an advert for the monster manual.
4e is a better comparison with Age of Sigmar as it was a radical redesign. Also, both continued to be refined over time, but it doesn't help them to be accepted by old players that liked what came before and refuse to take up something new.

I actually agree with you for the most part about 4E. But it's not that the games were new. It's that they were new and worse than what they were supposed to replace. I will never completely accept 4e but I can see the appeal as a weird video gamey war gamey sort of abomination. I can see why some people would like that. But it's not my cup of tea. It also didn't have wide reaching consequences for my hobby at the time. As most people I knew hated it too. So we all just stayed on 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Shitmar on the other hand is a bad He Man rip off. If they actually ran with that it'd have been cool but it either does things too different from WFB or does them too similar in a lesser fashion. If it were an alternative to WFB I wouldn't mind. But as a replacement that erased WFB to the point you can't even play WFB in a GW store that really annoyed me. As someone in the UK. If you can't play your Warhammer in a GW store you are fucked basically. As they have the monopoly on game stores and LGSs mostly ignore Warhammer due to GW getting weird with independent stores selling their shit.

Thankfully 3D printers go brrr so I was able to find a local group that plays WFB and doesn't mind 3D printed minis either. But Shitmar is still shit. And yes I know about Old World. But GW probably won't let me rock up with my 3D printed Bretonnians from Lost Kingdom Miniatures. (great company, great models btw.) and I'm just on the Dark Side now that I know I can print minis in resin to the same quality as GW for pennies. 20p per mini to be exact. Reminds me of when it was feasible to spend my pocket money on GW minis.

I don't play in official gw stores because of how anal they are about official minis only. Here we are lucky that we have LGSs that sell and host warhammer and mostly ignore what gw puts out. I've seen some creative interpretation on gw pricing rules, like apparently they are not allowed to give discounts on gw products. But a store wide discount is fine, even if they sell mostly warhammer. Also as far as rules age of sigmar isn't bad, I just really wish they didnt destroy the old world to do it. The tone and design is way too different, and their units are designed to be hard to find 3rd party models without infringing on copyrights. Like the total lack of horses for example, the bonereapers or whatever the fuck the steampunk dwarves are doing.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 30, 2021, 02:21:35 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 30, 2021, 10:05:06 AM
4e is a better comparison with Age of Sigmar as it was a radical redesign. Also, both continued to be refined over time, but it doesn't help them to be accepted by old players that liked what came before and refuse to take up something new.
I'll give you that the trade dress was very different for 4E compared to 3e, but mechanically it was a pretty small hop from the late 3.5e releases and early 4E and from 4E Essentials to 5e.

It was only a huge jump if you hadn't moved past the 3.5e core rules and had ignored the 5+ years of monthly hardcovers released after that; most notably the Complete X series class books (key features are the Warlock class, Reserve Spell feats and Skill Tricks which presaged the warlock class, at-will spells and martial utility powers) and Tome of Battle (presaging the Warlord and complex martial classes).

3e was a far bigger departure from 2e in terms of mechanics and character building even if you do count 2.5e (i.e. Skills & Powers) than 4E was from its immediate 3.5e predecessor products.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Omega on August 30, 2021, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 08:43:46 AM
Quote from: Omega on August 28, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 26, 2021, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: Omega on August 26, 2021, 05:42:59 PM
Whats Role Playing? To a storygamer - Everything on Earth.

Everything except those powergaming min/maxing bigots.

And yet invariably the worst powergaming and abuse of being "in character" I have seen or gotten complain reports on... is from storygamers.

"Okay so I'm a tiefling and my father is Asmodeus and I'm like super oppresed by the bigoted humans.  Actually me and Dad get on really well but I'm super rebellious because I have this lesbian relationship with an Elf from Africa. And Dad gave me awesome powers to crush mortals with."

"That's.. a bit to overpowered for my tastes could you change that up a bit. I'm not giving you awesome powers just because your backstory says you have them. Also we don't have Africa in this setting."

"OMG you are so restrictive an railroading. Y'know, Matt Mercer said we can play DnD in our own way. This game is shit!"

"Okay, I'll ignore that. I told you before you joined that we're going for a low fantasy low power vibe. There are plenty of other groups for you if you don't like that.

"Stop excluding me!"

You left out the inevitable...

"You cant play that! It offends me! Hey dont RP that way you have to RP the ONE TRUE WAY!" and so on ad nausium because exclusion is a one way road to these sociopaths.

And thats before even getting into actual play. Thats when the real hell begins for anyone who doesnt grovvel at the feet of these creeps.

Back on topic, such as it is.
The OSR was a sham from the get-go so is it any wonder it fell apart ASAP? We have one faction trying to claim their horrifically narrow little window is THE ONE TRUE WAY!!!!!!! And another faction trying to steal everything that isnt nailed down AND everything that is. We have a faction that isnt even OSR just likes to claim it is. We have a faction that, of course, defines OSR as Everything on Earth. A faction thats really just storygamers and/or SJWs looking to infiltrate and co-op so they can use it as another attack platform for their hatemongering.

And so on ad nausium infinitum.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:19:46 PM
Part of it is the mindset in fantasy and science fiction today.

For example, compare Luke Skywalker to Rey from those crummy Disney "Star Wars" movies. Luke had to endure pain, train hard, sometimes losing- in fact in that bar fight scene in the first movie he would have died if his old mentor Obi-Wan had not been there, not to mention coming in a distant second in his first fight with Vader- in short, it was the classic "Hero's Journey."

But today it's all expected to be there from the start for everyone. Rey could do almost anything right from the get-go. In the old D&D games I played you had to actually get good at the game, discovering which kind of character you were best at playing, learning how to do things right, and of course playing as a unit with each character using his character properly- magic user, thief, cleric, fighter, etc. Each could do things others couldn't do as well.

But look at it now. Stats mean nothing, males and females are essentially the same, the races (gasp!) are the same, you now have EVIL DRUIDS when the original idea of druids was that they were purely neutral nature priests, "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything" really = nothing.

Don't get me wrong- there was nothing wrong with someone playing a good drow as long as it was clear HE WAS A RENEGADE AND RARE INDEED.* I played a pseudo-dragon with limited (very) clerical abilities once, but my main job was scouting ahead for the others and using my limited healing abilities. But again, even if the rules were bent a little here and there, the basic "good vs. evil" theme remained.

Those things are to SJWs what holy water is to a Hammer vampire. What's more, anything "old school" is seen as dangerous to the "woke" since history must be erased, and that even includes something like AD&D.


* But since the drow were an evil race that rare good drow had to deal with the perfectly expected and justifiable suspicion he would encounter. That came with the territory. Just as I had to accept certain obvious limitations my pseudo-dragon had.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 06:42:13 PM
This...
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:19:46 PM
Part of it is the mindset in fantasy and science fiction today.

For example, compare Luke Skywalker to Rey from those crummy Disney "Star Wars" movies. Luke had to endure pain, train hard, sometimes losing- in fact in that bar fight scene in the first movie he would have died if his old mentor Obi-Wan had not been there, not to mention coming in a distant second in his first fight with Vader- in short, it was the classic "Hero's Journey."

But today it's all expected to be there from the start for everyone. Rey could do almost anything right from the get-go. In the old D&D games I played you had to actually get good at the game, discovering which kind of character you were best at playing, learning how to do things right, and of course playing as a unit with each character using his character properly- magic user, thief, cleric, fighter, etc. Each could do things others couldn't do as well.

Isn't really connected to this...
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:19:46 PM
But look at it now. Stats mean nothing, males and females are essentially the same, the races (gasp!) are the same, you now have EVIL DRUIDS when the original idea of druids was that they were purely neutral nature priests, "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything" really = nothing.

Cinematic characters with no flaws and hence no development suck, but it's unrelated to a panoply of options.

I think what you're going for is a different concept: The idea of limits. One of the most important concepts in developing a coherent world is saying no. Yes, you can have every possible race and monster in your world, but all those cosmopolitan kitchen-sink worlds start to feel very samey after a while. Since they have all the same races and monsters, they often have to extraordinary measures to make them feel different. In contrast, the simplest and most straightforward way to make your world unique is to just have a short list of races and common monsters. If your world is all human, or only gnomes and halflings, it will inherently feel very different from yet another world where all possible races bump shoulders with each other. The same is true for all other elements of the world; saying "no" is more important than saying "yes".

There is a clash between players who want to be able to play anything they can imagine, and a DM who wants to run a standard B/X-style world where you can play four classes of humans, or a single type of elf, dwarf, or halfling. But it's a different problem than a world full of invulnerable, flawless Reys.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Theory of Games on August 30, 2021, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 29, 2021, 07:00:37 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 29, 2021, 10:57:52 AM
Deconstructionism.

FKN Derrida. The grassroots of the SJW movement is the elimination of "the Old": if you can destroy the past, you can redefine the present and thus control the future. Thomas Jefferson said "The Earth belongs to the living, not the dead." The SJWs HATE the past. So they finger-point the sins of their elders in order to cancel them and gain the upper hand. Parents see this when their children challenge them.

Now imagine a nation, as parent, dealing with an entire generation of malcontents. To include the political RIGHT.

Stephen Bannon, Trump's advisor, believes in order to create a "more perfect society" the citizenry must destroy the existing system and recreate it in the "proper image". So , Trumpets rail against the current government hoping to overwhelm and replace it with something more "American".

That this leaked into TTRPGs is normal. We have to defeat the lich of Gygax and replace it with the Good King of Crawford. No alignment, no classes, and no unexpected PC deaths. STORY trumps GAME. I expect D&D 6E to be a dice-less storygame where a group determines outcomes based on what "best fits the story".

Maybe. Funny thing is I always saw the OSR as the most Liberal expression of TTRPGs: you make and play the game the way YOU and your group think best. There's no authoritarian body telling you to play D&D as "THEY" say you should. No "Rule of Law and Sanctity of Contracts".

You want to fight the madness? Call them out for being the bullies they are. On Twitter. Eventually, you will win.

I kind of doubt that the SJWs who create 6e will trust gaming groups with making their own stories. They will just get to act out some talking parts in the stories (or "narratives") that the SJWs think is best for them.
Actually, I agree. As long as the SJWs can control the narrative from their Control Towers, yes, real individual roleplay will become something akin to mind control. "Play as I say, not as I do."

I'm waiting for the "What is a Roleplaying Game?" screed to read like conditional rites of passage.

Edit: Crazy Uncle Gary wrote in the AD&D preface that what you do at your table is WHAT YOU DO. The textbook only applied to tournament play. SJWs wants EVERYTHING to be controlled.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Theory of Games on August 30, 2021, 07:39:06 PM
YEAH!

AD&D and BECMI was a game. WoTC created a STORYGAME without the limits. The beginnings of Storygame.  FK Alignment. FK Class. FK Race. Those stupid limits prevented the White Wolf-style gaming the SJWs wanted. "Your PC can be whatever they want to be. This is NEW! FK the past!"

How did that work with dozens of GMs asking for D&D advice to handle it. WoTC broke the rules of what D&D is, then abandoned the GMs. "Figure it out."

Good luck with 5e.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: zagreus on August 31, 2021, 12:08:30 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 28, 2021, 10:06:03 AM
I didn't come here to "be a dick to my peers". IRL I am too quiet and I never voice my opinion for fear of causing a confrontation

I'm really not comfortable with the way this thread is going. I just wanted to see what people's opinions of the OSR are and how to combat people being aggressively offended that I have a philosophical disagreement with the way they play the game.

This is becoming more about me and how I run my games than I would like. I can't defend against personal attacks from strangers on the internet because none of you know me. But what really grinds me gears is when I give an opinion and you start assigning negative traits to me to justify your own arguments. That makes me defensive when what I should've done is not respond. For 6 months I've been in a game as a GM where I've had to be a "storygamer" because that group was very new and that was what they expected of DnD. I knew that if I voiced my opinion to them or tried to enforce my way of doing things they would leave. So I played the long game. Didn't say a word about how I liked my games. Never voiced my opinion or tried to be obnoxious. Did the best I could as a GM to make them feel comfortable and welcome. Gave them as fun a game as I could manage under the restrictions. Then they got bored. I got the opportunity to do things my way and they liked it. I don't run the games I like as if they are hardcore tactical simulations or "try hard edgelord" stuff. Again, that's an assumption certain members here made about me and my style of GMing. I've said my style of GMing several times to justify myself to people who are probably still going to take offense and project negative traits onto me. I do not want to be a hostile or confrontational GM. I do not intentionally provoke or railroad my group. But when I've designed a dungeon full of traps and monsters and one player decides to run through the whole thing by themselves they will inevitably bump into the monsters I had already placed there or a trap. And they will have to figure out a way out of that situation. I find just telling the players what they want to hear to be condescending. I find that 5E and 5E culture encourages that playstyle. Feel free to disagree. But it's why I don't like 5E or the expectations of playing 5E I get from other players. And the whole point of my original topic was to discuss what to do when people get offended that I even mention that I like OSR and the Old school mentality.

I like OSR style play. Old school mentality where foolish actions are punished by the consequences of your actions. I don't see that as try hard or edgy. It's not, actually. I refuse to justify that. I just had a game with a group who enjoyed it. They didn't see it as particularly "hardcore". They just liked having choices and consequences both mechanically and in the story that mattered. 

I feel like I'm waffling on trying to justify myself to complete strangers. I'm just going to stop doing that.

Are you running 5E?  I do tend to agree.  I played in a 5E and a Pathfinder group.  Never again.  I'll play in a 1st or 2nd ed group... but even then if the GM has a bunch of precious house rules (most do) I get irked.  So I always wind up GMing.  Running Ars Magica now.

Just run the game you want!  You'll find players.  I advertised a "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" game- a few years back, created a Meetup.com group to attract new players- I had a few but not enough for a whole group.  A couple of the gamers, clearly expecting a "5E" or "Pathfinder" type experience (although not at all what I was advertising) kept asking to make various skill checks. 

Player "I want to Sense Motive". 

Me "You don't have that skill.  That's not a skill in this game."

Player "How do I know if this guy is lying to me or not?"

Me "Well, you have to figure it out.  I can't tell you."

They didn't like that.  I lost two players, both young ones in their 20's.   

Another example: 

Player  "I make a search roll." 

Me  "No, tell me what you're doing." 

Player "I search the room." 

Me "No, there's a lot of stuff in here (I describe the stuff), what do you do?"

When you use a simpler system, the players have to think and interact MORE with each other and the GM.  The more bells and whistles on a players sheet, they are sitting looking at their sheet, and trying to figure out what doodad on their sheet they can use to solve a problem instead of using their brain.  I lost some lame players, eventually found good ones.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.
Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on August 31, 2021, 08:36:30 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM
Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

     Gygax admitted druidic human sacrifice and that it pushed them towards the evil edge of neutral when first working out the expanded alignment system. I believe it's in The Strategic Review #6; I'll check it when I have access to my DRAGON Archive.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Torque2100 on August 31, 2021, 10:10:18 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.
Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

Yet another  example of why B/X's Alignment system was better.  Law is not necessarily Good and Chaos is not necessarily Evil.  Druids sacrificing someone because they got lost and violated the sanctity of the Druid's sacred grove would fit perfectly within a Lawful alignment.  He broke the rules, he must be punished.

The loose Alignment also opens up a TON of possible characters that you have to make up entire new classes for under the AD&D 9 Alignment system such as Paladin Dredd.  You also avoid the stupid arguments over weather Paladin Dredd, who will gladly exterminate Orc children since they bear the taint of Chaos on their very being or enslave a child for stealing bread because that's the law of this Kingdom, is Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.
Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?
It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20
QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?
It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587
Keep spitting on that grain of sand and squeezing it for all it's worth...maybe you'll get a pearl.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:43:15 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 31, 2021, 10:22:36 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 10:12:29 AM
Where do you get that there are no evil druids? Is this a real thing that's come up or just some hyperbolic non-example?
It started because Griswald Terrastone compared evil druids to Rey from the latest Star Wars trilogy:
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/why-does-the-osr-trigger-people-so-much/msg1185587/#msg1185587
Keep spitting on that grain of sand and squeezing it for all it's worth...maybe you'll get a pearl.
I haven't been involved in the conversation for a bit. I just clarified where the evil druids reference came from, because you asked.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20
QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.
So what exactly is your argument here?

Is it because Gary says in his game that druids must be neutral you can NEVER have a setting where this is not true? That the OSR is just as much a bunch of OneTrueWayist bullshit as the Woke crowd?

Because I'll tell you right now, the single biggest turnoff about the OSR for me is the number of proponents of it whose only real complaint against the SJWs is that they want the cultural heft of the Woke to declare their own OSR OneTrueWay as the only acceptable way to game.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: dkabq on August 31, 2021, 11:06:52 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 10:28:24 AM
Here's a history lesson for you kid:

Eldritch Wizardty, 1976, Gary Gygax & Brian Blume

QuoteDruids: Druids are a sub-class of Clerics. They are neutral in nature (as mentioned in GREY- HAWK). They are more closely attuned to Nature, serving as its priests rather than serving some other deity. Mistletoe takes a place of importance with them as a holy symbol or item as crosses and other like items do with other types of clerics.

Player's Handbook 1978 Gary Gygax, p.20
QuoteTho Druid
The druid is a sub-class of clerics. They are the only absolute neutrals (see ALIGNMENT), viewing good and evil, law and chaos, as balancing forces of nature which are necessary for the continuation of all things. As priests of nature, they must have a minimum wisdom of 12 and a charisma of 15. Both of these major attributes must exceed 15 if a druid is to gain a 10% bonus to earned experience.
So what exactly is your argument here?

Is it because Gary says in his game that druids must be neutral you can NEVER have a setting where this is not true? That the OSR is just as much a bunch of OneTrueWayist bullshit as the Woke crowd?

Because I'll tell you right now, the single biggest turnoff about the OSR for me is the number of proponents of it whose only real complaint against the SJWs is that they want the cultural heft of the Woke to declare their own OSR OneTrueWay as the only acceptable way to game.

Not me. You want "evil" druids in your campaign, then go for it. You do you, and I'll do me. To me that is what the OSR is about.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 11:13:06 AM
I could give two shits what you do at your table.  If you want to have chaotic evil druids, have at it.  My point was to illustrate, that at one point in the hobby, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment, just like Paladins HAD to he Lawful Good. 

Personally, our gaming group quickly dispensed with the True Neutral Only alignment restrictions for Druids and allowed Neutral Good, True Neutral, and Neutral Evil.  This was in '81.

We had good sects, that helped the farmers exist along with Nature, Neutral sects that tried to oreserve nature, and evil "eco-terrorist" sects that felt that civilization was an abomination and humanoids were an abberrant species that needed to be expunged...except for them of course.



Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 11:16:32 AM
Quote from: Torque2100 on August 31, 2021, 10:10:18 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 07:19:48 AM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 11:03:58 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:45:02 PM
It is related- the entire issue here is interconnected. Just look at "modern" AD&D as opposed to old-style AD&D, and there it is. Remember I've seen all of this happening since the mid-1970's, when I could understand it.
Correlation is not causation. There is correlation, but they're independent variables.
Not really, they come from the same mentality.  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
They're two traits shared by a certain group of people you and Griswald seem to dislike. That doesn't mean there's any real commonality. Just because you meet two people who are tall and have red hair doesn't mean they're siblings. The reason I'm distinguishing them is because the tendency to make characters who have no negative qualities and no place to grow or develop is pretty much a universal negative, but evil druids? You can like it or dislike it, but that's just a slight stylistic change to the game.
Not allowing evil druids also buys into D&D's official cosmologies as the ONLY valid cosmologies for play. In the real world there is evidence of human sacrifice performed by the druids (the victims may have been condemned criminals, but condemned for what?)

I'm picturing an adventure now where the PCs have been hired to rescue someone from a circle of druids before they sacrifice them at the next full moon... their crime to warrent the hideous death? The individual got lost in the forest and stumbled into a sacred grove during one of the druid's secret rites.

That druid behavior would make them villains and anyone who'd sacrifice someone for the "crime" of getting lost is evil in my book.

But that's not allowed because "evil druids" is supposedly Woke wankery. I bet an evil priest with all sort of pseudo-Christian trappings would be a perfectly acceptable villain to them though. Boy, the people behind the Woke would laugh their asses off about that irony.

Yet another  example of why B/X's Alignment system was better.  Law is not necessarily Good and Chaos is not necessarily Evil.  Druids sacrificing someone because they got lost and violated the sanctity of the Druid's sacred grove would fit perfectly within a Lawful alignment.  He broke the rules, he must be punished.

The loose Alignment also opens up a TON of possible characters that you have to make up entire new classes for under the AD&D 9 Alignment system such as Paladin Dredd.  You also avoid the stupid arguments over weather Paladin Dredd, who will gladly exterminate Orc children since they bear the taint of Chaos on their very being or enslave a child for stealing bread because that's the law of this Kingdom, is Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.

Ahhh, but I did see Paladin Dredd give a homeless guy a pass, and a rookie a freebie for losing her weapon.  Not sure how well that movie jived with the long running comic character, but it does seem there is a little wiggle room for Dredd regarding context.   But I agree the law/chaos/neutral system is MUCH better at reflecting more scope in a character's actions. Conan is a pretty good example of Chaotic (till he is King, then he seems more neutral), whether that be stabbing a weaker pirate captain after gaining his trust and stealing his ship, or risking his life to save a person he views as a friend, or even someone he owes a favor.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on August 31, 2021, 11:13:06 AM
I could give two shits what you do at your table.
Tell that to the guy upthread who has declared having evil druids in your campaign means you're a Wokist then.

QuoteIf you want to have chaotic evil druids, have at it.  My point was to illustrate, that at one point in the hobby, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment, just like Paladins HAD to he Lawful Good. 
Minor correction... "at one point in D&D, Druids were "supposed" to be exclusively True Neutral in alignment."

Also, to my point... So freaking what? Because AD&D did it that way if you don't do it that way you're doing it wrong? Because that's what some of these people are saying.

If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

I hate the OSR because its filled with the exact same type of assholes as the WotC Wokists... the ones who are really just butthurt they're not the ones getting to shove their preferred playstyle down the vast majority of players' throats... not at the idea that people should be entitled to play whatever they enjoy.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!

I've heard every last one of those at some point from an OSR proponent. If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong and are either deluded or an SJW.

The reason the OSR triggers people is that its been made toxic by some very toxic people being involved with it.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!


This but unironically.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:10:41 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!


I agree. Even dwarves and elves are too much for me. I'd rather keep them as supernatural creatures alongside fairies or angels. Tieflings, aasimar, furries, etc. are all debasing the flavor. I don't mind it, though, if sometimes the rules are not too impartial; it's okay to give the players some leeway for the sake of fun or the story every now and then (inb4 woke storygamer, you know what I meant)
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!


This but unironically.
I rest my case. The reason people hate the OSR is exactly because assholes like this are the main ones trying to push it; people who insult any player who likes anything other than their OneTrueWay. In terms of OSR people I've met in real life, every last one of them had this sort of mentality... and yet they can't seem to understand why no one is interested in playing with them.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists... because you place your own gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground with all the non-woke gamers who would otherwise agree with you on 90+% of the problems in gaming.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 01:34:27 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!


This but unironically.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists

If you actually believe anything you just said you are just as bad as the people you claim to hate. I don't give a shit that Chris24601 holds me in contempt. I'm going to keep playing my B/X and you can do whatever freakshit you want. No one is stopping you making an OSR game where the main species are Furries or whatever else shit you can come up with.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on August 31, 2021, 01:34:44 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:10:41 PM

I agree. Even dwarves and elves are too much for me. I'd rather keep them as supernatural creatures alongside fairies or angels. Tieflings, aasimar, furries, etc. are all debasing the flavor. I don't mind it, though, if sometimes the rules are not too impartial; it's okay to give the players some leeway for the sake of fun or the story every now and then (inb4 woke storygamer, you know what I meant)
I agree with this, a lot of the time. Other times, all that shit is fine. I think the important things to recognize are:

1) These are preferences. There's nothing wrong with a human-centric world a la Conan, or even a purely human world with no other races even lurking in the shadows. There's also nothing wrong with a kitchen sink world, where everything under the sun and then some exists. It's vanilla vs. chocolate, or long hair vs. short, not 1+1 = 2 vs. 1+1 = 3.

2) Some things don't fit in some worlds. Sometimes the DM has a clear vision and wants to stick with it, and thus some things are out of bounds. Sometimes it's anything goes. Sometimes the DM is willing to allow the players to partially shape the world by their choices, and the decision they make during character creation will shape the nature of the world, but once that's established it becomes fixed. It's also useful to recognize that deciding what works and what doesn't in the context of a world isn't a strictly rational or explicable process. Sometimes the DM will say no, and not be able to explain why. That doesn't mean whatever the player wants should be allowed. It just means it's more art than science.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Quote from: King Tyranno on August 31, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on August 31, 2021, 12:48:09 PM


If your fantasy world doesn't have humans, dwarves, elves and hobbits as playable races you're doing it wrong. According to them if you have have a world where, because of its history humans, tieflings and dragonborn are the dominant races and elves and dwarves are reclusive forest/underground spirit-folk who want nothing to do with mortals and halflings don't exist because you don't want your world to be a Tolkien rip-off... well, that's Wokists trying to destroy the hobby.

How DARE you have race options that didn't appear as members of the Fellowship of the Ring (or human only if you're hardcore)! How DARE you use anything other random dice rolls for your ability scores! How DARE you not follow the "Zero-to-Hero" model where low level PCs can die at the drop of the hat and you cycle through them like changes of clothing until you get one lucky enough to survive!


This but unironically.
I rest my case. The reason people hate the OSR is exactly because assholes like this are the main ones trying to push it; people who insult any player who likes anything other than their OneTrueWay. In terms of OSR people I've met in real life, every last one of them had this sort of mentality... and yet they can't seem to understand why no one is interested in playing with them.

YOU and those like you are the reason I hold the OSR in contempt and why you'll NEVER actually beat the Wokists... because you place your own gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground with all the non-woke gamers who would otherwise agree with you on 90+% of the problems in gaming.

No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.

IMHO, the purpose of the OSR was never to beat the Wokoso's.

It was simply about getting back to the style of play D&D in the form of 3 and 4e was moving away from.


That it has largely been immune to SJW infiltration is due to several factors.

1: While some may complain about the different "factions" within the OSR - this is a feature, not a bug. The balkanized nature of the OSR community makes it very difficult for the SJW's to infiltrate, organize, and gain control of the narrative of what the OSR is all about.

Even on RPG forums that are dismissive of the OSR and try to slander it, there are enough quality OSR designers out there that they have been unable to get people to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


2: On the: "Putting gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground." Again,  Feature not bug!

The utter refusal to bow to narrative of 'player-entitlement' with "My table, my rules!" is foundational to keeping the freaks and creeps out of the OSR.

There is a BIG push that if a race/power is available in a "core" rulebook that; It. Must. Be. Allowed. The OSR popping a big middle finger to that entire notion is an essential element in keeping the OSR furry free.


3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

When most in the OSR hear: "If you are not doing X like y according to AD&D pg.7. You are WRONG!"

The normal reply is: "Well, that's like your opinion, man..."

And both sides go off (maybe after a little arguing) and continue to play RPG's.

In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

And that is a good thing.


The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.


So while the OSR may not be the movement that "beats" the SJW's. It will be one that outlasts them.

And IMHO, it just might be the place where the game designers who eventually do to D&D what pathfinder couldn't will come from.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: SHARK on August 31, 2021, 09:06:38 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
Quote from: SonTodoGato on August 31, 2021, 01:36:58 PM
No one is stopping you from playing Barney the Dinosaur if so you wish... we just think it's not a good way to play. OSR isn't just Sword & sorcery, humans-only, though.

I don't see how we're expected to "beat" the wokists, whatever that is. Are we supposed to compromise and start including genasis in our games so that we don't scare away people who are new to the hobby and have been introduced by the wokes? This is exactly what we want to avoid.

IMHO, the purpose of the OSR was never to beat the Wokoso's.

It was simply about getting back to the style of play D&D in the form of 3 and 4e was moving away from.


That it has largely been immune to SJW infiltration is due to several factors.

1: While some may complain about the different "factions" within the OSR - this is a feature, not a bug. The balkanized nature of the OSR community makes it very difficult for the SJW's to infiltrate, organize, and gain control of the narrative of what the OSR is all about.

Even on RPG forums that are dismissive of the OSR and try to slander it, there are enough quality OSR designers out there that they have been unable to get people to throw away the baby with the bathwater.


2: On the: "Putting gaming preferences ahead of the practical interests of finding common ground." Again,  Feature not bug!

The utter refusal to bow to narrative of 'player-entitlement' with "My table, my rules!" is foundational to keeping the freaks and creeps out of the OSR.

There is a BIG push that if a race/power is available in a "core" rulebook that; It. Must. Be. Allowed. The OSR popping a big middle finger to that entire notion is an essential element in keeping the OSR furry free.


3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!

When most in the OSR hear: "If you are not doing X like y according to AD&D pg.7. You are WRONG!"

The normal reply is: "Well, that's like your opinion, man..."

And both sides go off (maybe after a little arguing) and continue to play RPG's.

In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

And that is a good thing.


The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.


So while the OSR may not be the movement that "beats" the SJW's. It will be one that outlasts them.

And IMHO, it just might be the place where the game designers who eventually do to D&D what pathfinder couldn't will come from.

Greetings!

Excellent points, Jaeger! So many things that some people want to see as *BUGS* of the OSR are, as you so well noted, *FEATURES*. The in-fighting, the one true wayism, the belligerence, the often opinionated, confrontational styles--are a series of attributes that combine to keep the SJW freaks at bay and away from the OSR. Every step of the way, the SJW is confronted by mechanics, traditions, opinions, styles, and gamers that frustrate and oppose them endlessly.

I think it is a fantastic thing, and an environment that keeps the OSR strong, healthy, and independent.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: crkrueger on August 31, 2021, 09:24:39 PM
People should try Roleplaying sometime.

In Roleplaying, you pretend you're someone you're not.  That someone lives in a world, a setting.

If that setting has X, then it's possible to play X.
If that setting doesn't have X, then it's impossible to play X.
No sane adult should have an issue with this.

But, it's the GM's setting and the GM's game. 
If the GM wants to allow you to be an Arduin Deodanth, in Shadowrun, he can. 
If he wants you to allow you to be a Timelord stuck in the Realms without a TARDIS & Sonic Screwdriver, he can.

He doesn't have to, however, and there should be no assumption that he does.

I don't understand where "wokists" enters the discussion.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 31, 2021, 09:32:30 PM
The unsettling part is that this is 2021, not 1981.

There is so much out there for gaming material. So many PDF files spanning decades. Unlike my time you have access literally to ANYONE out there: if you want a "transexuals-only" gaming group you can with very little effort. Want a game with cute anthros inspired by "Dragon Winter" by Niel Hancock? There you go. Regular bash down the door rescue the girl in the chainmail bikini and grab the loot after killing Lord Nastnaughty gaming? What's stopping you today?

Yet the "woke" complain. It is obvious that they not only want the right to play their way, but that YOU must play according to their rules. Even if they change from week to week.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 31, 2021, 10:37:20 PM
Some people think you are having badwrongfun, if you aren't playing according to their rules.  Piss on that.  If I want to play pin the tail on the evil Drow, that's my business.  If I want to play burn the witches, that's my business.  If I want to support content that's in line with the way I want to play, that's my business.

My dollar is my dollar.  My game is my game.

I don't give 2 shits how other people like to play.  You do you, and I'll do me, etc.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on August 31, 2021, 11:00:44 PM
I'm not gonna lie most of the games and products I buy are going to the chop shop to be stripped down for parts or perhaps a nicer image is them being mined for ideas. Every once in a while I find something that seems like it can just stand on its own and be a fun thing to do without chopping, pressing, cooking it into gaming luncheon meat with olive slices and cheese blots but it's not the usual experience. Usually the games I buy are ingredients for a sausage or casserole dish.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 01, 2021, 08:04:50 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
The OSR is not a "unifying" movement - it is a thresher that separates the wheat from the chaff.

In all the arguments and chaos, the OSR is a great melting pot of ideas that are directly relevant to how RPGs are played at the table.

Ideas which are useful are universally acknowledged, and widely adopted. The patently ridiculous get tossed out of the room faster than a blonde on prom night.


Entirely agree with the whole post--despite the fact that most of my ideas are going to end up OSR chaff in this analogy. 

Look, my tastes are so out of phase with most people, that what works for me is often not works for others.  And by "out of phase" I mean in that Star Trek sense where it isn't opposite day or different just to be different, but rather 2 degrees off here and 5 degrees off there, and pretty soon you end up in another world entirely. 

That makes the "thresher" more valuable to me, not less!  Because in order to see where I need to go out of phase to accomplish my objective, I need the ideas thrashed soundly.  Then I'll pick up a little piece of idea A and graft it onto ideas B and C, and get close to where I want to go, and test and design from there.  Granted, that means that the likelihood of me "giving back" in the form of some useful "wheat" is pretty low, but I do buy the occasional product ...
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: jhkim on September 01, 2021, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way.

I've also encountered plenty of storygamers and/or social justice advocates who insist on One True Way. I hate that shit too. For years in the early 2000s, I was the pain in the butt on The Forge and Storygames.com arguing against One-True-Wayists there. If that had been my introduction to role-playing, I might have stopped playing.

Thankfully, I was introduced to RPGs in the pre-Internet days when they were fun games to play with other kids.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2021, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
3: ONE TRUE WAYISM: "If you don't play their way, you're doing it wrong." Yes, even this: Feature, not bug.

The BrOSR, OD&D Cultists, B/X adherents, Retro clones "that do it better", Jeffro vs. Pundit infighting...

These are all essential gatekeeping elements that keep the SJW freaks out!
Quote from: Jaeger on August 31, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
In short, in the OSR you are continually surrounded by people with opinions that are not shy about telling you what you are doing wrong.

SJW's HATE that shit. They hate judgmental environments. They want to accepted no matter what, and stepping into  a community of people who are not shy about expressing their contradictory viewpoint is an intolerable situation.

I have literally seen SJW posters say they have been turned off playing for long periods because of something said to them online in an RPG forum...

It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way.

I've also encountered plenty of storygamers and/or social justice advocates who insist on One True Way. I hate that shit too. For years in the early 2000s, I was the pain in the butt on The Forge and Storygames.com arguing against One-True-Wayists there. If that had been my introduction to role-playing, I might have stopped playing.

Thankfully, I was introduced to RPGs in the pre-Internet days when they were fun games to play with other kids.
Good God, why are you making me have to agree with jhkim!?!

Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say.

The only reason to do it (and the reason SJWs do it so much) is to target a member of an outgroup with it as a signal to your ingroup that you're one of them and not a member of the outgroup. i.e. its straight up virtue signaling.

Play whatever the heck you want, but telling others that only your way is good and their way is bad is a great way to make sure that people who might agree with you on 90% of the problems pay no attention that 90% because you keep berating them up over what is almost always a pretty trivial 10%.

The OP wanted to know why the OSR triggers people? That's it right there. Woke nutjobs are trying to take over the hobby and demanding their politics be shoved into every last orifice, but if you don't agree that random attributes, fantasy fucking Vietnam and nothing but Tolkien races is the only way to play then swaths of the OSR write you off as in the same camp as the SJWs who want you to have no voice at all because you don't want anything of theirs in any of your orifices.

The result is a whole slew of people who could be allies in pushing back at WokeTC's agenda just checking out because a vocal chunk of the OSR will drop you just for preferring point buy to 3d6 in order and not the much more important shared belief that "GAMES SHOULD BE FUN."
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Pat on September 01, 2021, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say.

The only reason to do it (and the reason SJWs do it so much) is to target a member of an outgroup with it as a signal to your ingroup that you're one of them and not a member of the outgroup. i.e. its straight up virtue signaling.
It's a bit more complex than that. While it's true that telling people they're wrong will usually provoke a defensive reaction that kills any receptivity to chance, and some people do it as a way to signal their virtue to a group of the already converted, the excluded middle is also very important because that's where the marketplace of ideas exists. Because while disagreeing with someone won't convince the person you're replying to, if the audience includes people who are sympathetic but unconvinced, indifferent, or even unsympathetic but not completely so, then you may end up swaying their thinking. This is a very gradual process; sudden conversion is a unicorn. But over time, people who haven't shut themselves off from all alternative views will absorb the arguments and new information, and may shift to a new set of beliefs over time. Even if it just confirms their preexisting biases, it still gives them a better grounding for their beliefs.

Among friends or presumed friends, we tend to default to the friendly approach, especially when it's face to face. But in places like messageboards or broader social media, where there's a like interest but a lot of unknown people, we often default to a more adversarial approach. That can turn nasty, and due to the 1:manymanymany relationship that happens when something gets a lot of attention on the intrawebs, it can feel like an infinite dogpile.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 01, 2021, 02:45:55 PM
The tone of "you are doing it wrong" matters a lot. 

Sometimes it's flat trolling.

If it's the smarmy, no thought reflex so characteristic of most SJW (and many people who have posted from their phone so long that all they do is think in tweets), then it's just pure annoying.

Sometimes it's the arrogant, "Can't believe I'm having to explain this again" bit, which can be off-putting but might have some real insight behind it if you catch the guy on a good day.  Other times, not in the mood to wade through the attitude looking for gold.

Sometimes it's merely the preface to kind of set the boundaries of the discussion before more reasonable thoughts follow.

Sometimes it's a joke to kind of let everyone know that the masked debators are about to climb into the arena and bounce off the ropes and break chairs over each others' heads.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jaeger on September 01, 2021, 04:34:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 01, 2021, 12:59:23 PM
...
It's not just SJWs who hate being torn down by judgemental assholes, though. Most gamers who just wants to play a fun game will get turned off to RPGs if enough people come at them online telling them they're doing it wrong for not going the One True Way. ...

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Good God, why are you making me have to agree with jhkim!?!

Wait, what!?

*Runs into basement lair and reviews recent home invasion video files where I made RPG groups #doitright*

Sorry, Wasn't me...


Quote from: Chris24601 on September 01, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Anyone who makes a living by public speaking/persuasion/sales will tell you the same thing; telling someone you're tying to persuade that "You're doing it wrong" is the number one way to get your audience to stop listening to anything you have to say....
...

Even in the OSR the "one true wayists" are a minority group – a bit loud at times, but a minority.

Having "one true wayists" in you "community" would be a legit issue. For a game company.


But the OSR has no single game it gathers around, nor developer or personality in anything resembling a leadership role.

And Frankly at this point in time, keeping SJW's OUT of the OSR, is far more important than gathering some fence-sitters who had their fee fee's hurt because some rando on the internet told them they were playing "fake D&D".
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on September 01, 2021, 07:49:59 PM
I think a lot of the "you're doing it wrong" spiel is an attempt to sell wares by trying to project the big dick energy. Kind of a negging people into listening approach mixed with being outrageous to draw attention.

Braggadocio and "mad prophet on the street corner who will tell you the truth and you won't like it...at first " actually works with some people.

Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Jam The MF on September 01, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
I have been reflecting upon the rejection of One True Way. 

One True Way = Absolute Truth.

If there is to be some basic, minimum semblance of reality in your games; then perhaps there should be a little absolute truth present.  Water is wet, fire is hot, ice is cold, etc.  Otherwise, you might as well abandon all the laws of physics too.

I don't think it matters too much what the game mechanics are.  Select a genre, choose some mechanics, and play the game.  To me the OSR seems to have a style that I happen to like.  Enough rules, but not too many rules.  Enough mechanical complexity, but not too much complexity.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Zalman on September 03, 2021, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 01, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
One True Way = Absolute Truth.

If there is to be some basic, minimum semblance of reality in your games; then perhaps there should be a little absolute truth present.  Water is wet, fire is hot, ice is cold, etc.  Otherwise, you might as well abandon all the laws of physics too.

That's semantically cute, but "one true wayism" as typically discussed refers to how the game is played, not the existence of "truths" within the fantasy setting.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Lunamancer on September 03, 2021, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Zalman on September 03, 2021, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 01, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
One True Way = Absolute Truth.

If there is to be some basic, minimum semblance of reality in your games; then perhaps there should be a little absolute truth present.  Water is wet, fire is hot, ice is cold, etc.  Otherwise, you might as well abandon all the laws of physics too.

That's semantically cute, but "one true wayism" as typically discussed refers to how the game is played, not the existence of "truths" within the fantasy setting.

I disagree that is how it's typically discussed. I think it's most often invoked as a pejorative.

But even if I grant that one true wayisms is specifically about how the game is played, what does that look like? Are people going around, wagging their fingers about how the One True Way to play, oh, say, AD&D, is playing strictly by the rules while holding no opinion as to what the absolute truth of those rules are? Dictating the how while leaving wiggle room in the what results in more than "one" true way.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Chris24601 on September 03, 2021, 11:55:56 PM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 03, 2021, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Zalman on September 03, 2021, 11:08:03 AM
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 01, 2021, 10:42:07 PM
One True Way = Absolute Truth.

If there is to be some basic, minimum semblance of reality in your games; then perhaps there should be a little absolute truth present.  Water is wet, fire is hot, ice is cold, etc.  Otherwise, you might as well abandon all the laws of physics too.

That's semantically cute, but "one true wayism" as typically discussed refers to how the game is played, not the existence of "truths" within the fantasy setting.

I disagree that is how it's typically discussed. I think it's most often invoked as a pejorative.
Because it is intended as a pejorative. It is shorthand for people who believe everyone should play as they do and others are objectively wrong if they don't play that way.

Whether coming from the Left or the Right or Orange or the Blue, it's basically Collectivist thought... that there is a one-size fits all answer fo gaming that everyone should adhere to and if you don't then you don't know what's actually best for you.

And I get the sentiment; the SJW cancel culture demands conformity to their standards and "eye-for-an-eye" feels really good as an answer... except that it's every bit as alienating to those who aren't on the extremes.

And to be clear; there IS a distinction to be made between "I think [way I play] will produce more satisfying results" and "your way sucks and is badwrongfun and does not belong in polite company."

There's nothing wrong with a preference; but a OneTrueWayist is more about tearing down others' preferences than actually selling why theirs are so much better and can't seem to understand that, in the field of entertainment, people can have different preferences. They're basically equivalent to some baseball fanatic telling someone they're unAmerican and a horrible human being if they have no interest in baseball.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Zalman on September 04, 2021, 11:12:47 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 03, 2021, 10:06:22 PM
Quote from: Zalman on September 03, 2021, 11:08:03 AM
That's semantically cute, but "one true wayism" as typically discussed refers to how the game is played, not the existence of "truths" within the fantasy setting.

I disagree that is how it's typically discussed. I think it's most often invoked as a pejorative.

Oh I agree it is pejorative. It's people telling other people that they're playing "wrong".
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: amacris on September 04, 2021, 08:26:27 PM
There may not be One True Way but there are certainly some true ways and some false ways.

I analogize to diet (as in one's choice of food viewed as a pattern). Diet has an objective component (nutrition) and a subjective component (flavor). There are nutritious diets that are distasteful, and flavorful diets that are not nutritious, as well as flavorless and nutritionless diets, and (best of all) flavorful and nutritious diets. Because we have diversity of human biology, nutritious needs and digestive capacities can favor (objective differences) as can tastes (subjective differences).

Because the choices are complex, cuisines develop to help local groups habituated to similar nutritional needs and flavor tastes be able to eat wisely without having to agonize over each choice. But as such it is impossible to assert that the Mediterranean Diet is the One True Way, because depending on your nutritional needs and subjective tastes, you might do better with Japanese Diet or Paleo Diet or whatnot.

Often it's not clear whether a particular cuisine is good. It can take years to figure it out. Look at the modern American cuisine, which went disastrously wrong in thinking that salt and fat were bad, and carbs and margarine were good, for instance. One of the values of tradition is that you have a long historical track record of effective goodness.

Given the above, one can *truthfully* assert that:
a) Someone who claims to be eating nutritiously and develops scurvy and rickets from lack of Vitamin C and D is wrong; and
b) Someone who claims to be eating a Mediterranean diet, who eats rice noodles, soy sauce, and sushi as his staples, but never olive oil, chickpeas, lamb, or cuimin, is wrong.
c) Someone who is lactose and gluten intolerant who constantly eats wheat and cheese pizza would be served by a change of cuisine.

Just like eating or any other human activity, playing role-playing games can be good for you (for your mind, in this case). It can help you flourish as a person: improve reading skills, learn new things, improve math abilities, improve social skills, develop acting chops, all sorts of things. It can also be bad for you, diminish you, in the same way that inveterate gambling or alcoholism can diminish your flourishing. 

Just like there are a number of known cuisines, RPGs have a number of known methods of play (OSR, Hickman Revolution, Gygaxian Naturalism, New School, whatever labels you wish to apply). Just like new cuisines get developed ("Asian Fusion" "Paleo"), new methods of play are also developed (New School OSR DIY).

When I see people playing in tabletop RPGs where the players are abused by a manipulative and sociopathic gamemaster who enjoys making them miserable, I assert they are playing wrong as in type a of wrong. They are wrong about the psychological nutrition of what they are doing.

When I see people playing in tabletop RPGs where the players are participating in a scripted story-arc where death is never a real possibility and player skill is minimized, and they claim they are playing OSR, I assert they are playing wrong as in type b of wrong. They are wrong about what the tradition entails.

But when I see people playing in tabletop RPGs where the players are participating in a scripted story-arc where death is never a real possibility and player skill is minimized, and they claim they are playing New School, I simply say, "that's not to my taste" and "that doesn't bring the value I want."

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "gatekeeping" OSR play. French chefs gatekeep French cuisine to preserve the traditional methods of cooking for the same reason. There's also nothing wrong with innovating to create California Pizza or whatever, either, except insofar as your innovation might turn out to be flawed or lame.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: Lunamancer on September 05, 2021, 10:55:17 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 03, 2021, 11:55:56 PM
Because it is intended as a pejorative. It is shorthand for people who believe everyone should play as they do and others are objectively wrong if they don't play that way.

I get that. In fact, I agree with your post 100%. The problem I see here is that anyone invoking this pejorative is themselves telling the other person that they're wrong. And in all fairness, that might actually be the case. Then again, it might not. In my experience, accusations of OneTrueWayisms seem to be far more common than actual OneTrueWayisms. So I'm not a fan of the term at all.

QuoteAnd to be clear; there IS a distinction to be made between "I think [way I play] will produce more satisfying results" and "your way sucks and is badwrongfun and does not belong in polite company."

Absolutely. And that's precisely where the problem point is. People sometimes invoke the term without making that exact distinction. And by sometimes, I mean more often than not when the term is invoked, there has been a failure to make this distinction.

QuoteThere's nothing wrong with a preference; but a OneTrueWayist is more about tearing down others' preferences

I'm cutting your line here because I think this is the crucial part. If someone somehow through divine insight or whathaveyou actually stumbled upon ancient secrets of the universe that revealed the One True Way and they adopt it, run with it, and have the most fun and enjoyable game in the world, nobody's going to have a beef with that (apart from, perhaps, a small number of envious trolls). You can OneTrueWay all you want if it's working for you and you're not tearing others down.

So the real sin here is the tearing others down part. Not the OneTrueWay part. And I have to tell you, tearing others down is unfortunately par for the course in online RPG discussions. Even when nobody is trying to be an asshole.

For example, ask someone why they like 3E over 1E or 2E? "The reverse AC, man. THAC0 made combat so confusing." Great. You just took a jab at my jam. The intent was to do nothing more than express one's own preferences, not to tell anyone else how to play, but gamers seem pretty bad at stating something they like without contrasting it in a way that disparages their less preferred alternative.

This example is a really small thing, but we all know someone somewhere actually is sensitive enough to take offense to something like this. This I think ties in to the OP topic when we look at what options do we have?

1. Get thicker skin.
2. Quit the hobby altogether.
3. Be a relentless whiner that nobody likes.
4. Cancel the offenders.

I've listed these in order from my most preferred strategy to my least preferred. Other people will have different preference rankings in their strategies. Obviously we're not going to hear too much from people who just quit the hobby. We are going to hear a lot from relentless whiners, but if nobody likes them their days are numbered. And I think if we just go around canceling each other, most people aren't going to survive the purge.

That leaves #1 as the most sustainable strategy, and so understandably I think that's where a disproportionate number of the old guard are going to fall. And it can be a fine line between having thick skin and being insensitive. And thick-skinned are also going to have higher tolerance of the insensitive. So there's going to be no shortage of criticisms, many of which are valid, that can be leveled against the old guard culture. There are going to be insensitive jerks among us. But imperfect as the culture is, it's the most sustainable mix of tolerance. It's the one that works.
Title: Re: Why does the OSR trigger people so much?
Post by: palaeomerus on September 06, 2021, 10:49:15 PM
Effin' neutral clerics man...

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/680467049734209592/884422120283729980/image0-61.png)