Quote from: Omega;726297Perhaps the better question is...

Had not WOTC been on the 5 year plan and scrapped 4th ed anyhow...

Would 4th ed have stood on its own or would it have collapsed more than it already had?

At the time of its cancellation. How far into the death spiral was - or wasn't it?

My impression is that by 2011 Pathfinder was totally crushing it in hardcopy sales, and Essentials had failed abysmally due to incredibly stupid titling - nobody new to 4e knew that "Heroes of..." meant "Player's Book You Buy First".
The actual product they were putting out in 2011 was mostly quite good, but the game was weighed down by a lot of crap from 2008-9 still on the shelves. And in terms of presentation - look & feel of the books - WoTC could never compete with the slick look of Pathfinder, which has absolutely brilliant (IMO) presentation and art for its target market.

I think if WoTC had stuck with 4e D&D they could have re-established it as a solid second tier game, but could not have reasserted market dominance over Pathfinder (they probably can't with 5e either, I suspect). Their biggest problem is that years of Christmas layoffs gutted their in-house talent and created their competition. Maybe constant redundancies* work for Hasbro in other fields (though I can't see how or why), but it's certainly been a disaster for RPGs. And their rejection of the OGL meant there was no longer third party support to fill in the weaknesses in the WoTC lineup. The corporate mismanagement has been appalling and I don't think the game can overcome that, not 4e and probably not 5e.

*I know redundancy doesn't traumatise Americans the way it would traumatise a British employee, but it's certainly not going to inspire loyalty or affection for a company that may sack you at any moment. It's going to have current employees thinking about exit strategies, how to get a job with Paizo, etc.

Quote from: S'mon;726343It's going to have current employees thinking about exit strategies, how to get a job with Paizo, etc.

Or a video game company.

Quote from: S'mon;726343*I know redundancy doesn't traumatise Americans the way it would traumatise a British employee, but it's certainly not going to inspire loyalty or affection for a company that may sack you at any moment. It's going to have current employees thinking about exit strategies, how to get a job with Paizo, etc.

Does 'redundancy' mean a 'reduction in workforce' in the UK?

Quote from: Old One Eye;726366Does 'redundancy' mean a 'reduction in workforce' in the UK?

Yes, it's basically the only way they can fire you. They can't fire you just because they want to, that's Unfair Dismissal and illegal. So they say you're surplus to requirements and make you redundant. Then they wait a while, say conditions have improved, and hire somebody else.
It happened to me once (back in 2003), though technically I was on a fixed-term contract that was renewed, until it wasn't. It was quite traumatic and took me a year to get another job, which I love and still have. My wife is just back in work last week after having been out of work since June 2011, she had taken 'voluntary' redundancy when her workplace was reducing numbers, which turned out to be a big mistake.

Quote from: S'mon;726408Yes, it's basically the only way they can fire you. They can't fire you just because they want to, that's Unfair Dismissal and illegal. So they say you're surplus to requirements and make you redundant. Then they wait a while, say conditions have improved, and hire somebody else.
It happened to me once (back in 2003), though technically I was on a fixed-term contract that was renewed, until it wasn't. It was quite traumatic and took me a year to get another job, which I love and still have. My wife is just back in work last week after having been out of work since June 2011, she had taken 'voluntary' redundancy when her workplace was reducing numbers, which turned out to be a big mistake.

Ah, gotcha.  My boss can call me up right now, say I am fired, and there is nothing I could do about it but look for another job.  As such, the WotC layoffs are not even a blip on my radar.

Quote from: S'mon;726408Yes, it's basically the only way they can fire you. They can't fire you just because they want to, that's Unfair Dismissal and illegal. So they say you're surplus to requirements and make you redundant. Then they wait a while, say conditions have improved, and hire somebody else.
It happened to me once (back in 2003), though technically I was on a fixed-term contract that was renewed, until it wasn't. It was quite traumatic and took me a year to get another job, which I love and still have. My wife is just back in work last week after having been out of work since June 2011, she had taken 'voluntary' redundancy when her workplace was reducing numbers, which turned out to be a big mistake.

Games Workshops stores have manager guidelines to come up with reasons to get rid of workers. Any sort of underperformance and get you sacked before you reach the point they have to pay you the unemployment equivalent. Theres a couple of sites discussing it now it seems.

As for Hasbro's policies. Yeah, its a bit messy from what other designers have told me past and current. And thats not even touching on the WOTC side. Really depends on just how tight the leash is Hasbro has on WOTC. And at least for their sideline projects, pretty damn tight.