Theres many classic RPGs from my youth that largely seem to have disappeared from store shelves, in sime cases a long time ago. Some may still be getting published just not carried by the stores I frequent, some may have switched to pdf-only, but a lot of them just seem to be gone Wondering if those in-the-know might provide some updates on the status of a few games I havent heard from in a while...
BESM
GoO went out of business a while ago, but BESM 2e remains one of my favourite little systems. A few years ago White Wolf's now-defunct Arthouse division put out a rather disappointing 3rd ed. Does WW currently still own the rights and any plans for a new edition?
Ars Magica
The 4th edition corebook is available free on Drive-Thru, and there was a rather colourful 5th edition a few years back, but havent heard anything in a while about the game that redefined magic systems for a generation.
Pendragon
The last edition (5th also, iirc) featured the return of Stafford and the punlishing at long last of The Great Pendragon campaign, that now sells for ridiculous prices on the secondary market. Chaosium is still going strong as a company, but havent heard a peep about Pendragon in years.
DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes
Mayfairs excellent entry into the supers rpg genre lasted 3 editions with the DC lisence, managed a spin-off Batman rpg, and was apparently a huge inspiration for the rules of M&M 2nd edition (?). When Mayfair went under, the system sans DC was picked up by a small company that published it as Blood of Heroes with an original supers setting, and set a new watermark for bad rpg art. Havent heard anything since then.
Teenagers From Outer Space
The original anime rpg, though I much preferred the Westernized 2nd ed that took its inspiration largely from the classic Galaxy High cartoon of the 80s. After the 3rd ed it seems to have disappeared in the early 90s. A company called A2 published a sourcebook in 2001, with more supposed to follow, but not a peep was heard again.
The MEGS system is owned by DC Comics.
Quote from: TristramEvans;724615Teenagers From Outer Space
The original anime rpg, though I much preferred the Westernized 2nd ed that took its inspiration largely from the classic Galaxy High cartoon of the 80s. After the 3rd ed it seems to have disappeared in the early 90s. A company called A2 published a sourcebook in 2001, with more supposed to follow, but not a peep was heard again.
I think that R. Talsorian Games still owns the rights to that one.
Quote from: jeff37923;724624I think that R. Talsorian Games still owns the rights to that one.
Are they still around? What do they do nowadays?
Quote from: Endless Flight;724621The MEGS system is owned by DC Comics.
Pulsar Games lisenced it from DC? Are you sure? That seems odd, especially as Mayfair games designed the system, not DC.
Quote from: TristramEvans;724629Pulsar Games lisenced it from DC? Are you sure? That seems odd, especially as Mayfair games designed the system, not DC.
I think Mayfair mistakenly licensed it to Pulsar thinking they still owned the system. Pulsar was bought by a couple guys on the DC mailing list and they were going to release an improved edition ten years ago, but that never happened I would think because they don't actually own the system and have no rights to it, even via license.
If you look in one of the 1st edition DC Heroes RPG books it says "DC Heroes Role Playing Game is a trademark of Mayfair Games, under license from DC Comics, Inc." It also says under credits: "Copyright 1985 DC Comics, Inc."
I think even Ray Winninger, who wrote a lot of the sourcebooks, suggested as much online.
Quote from: Endless Flight;724632I think Mayfair mistakenly licensed it to Pulsar thinking they still owned the system.
If you look in one of the 1st edition DC Heroes RPG books it says "DC Heroes Role Playing Game is a trademark of Mayfair Games, under license from DC Comics, Inc." It also says under credits: "Copyright 1985 DC Comics, Inc."
I think even Ray Winninger, who wrote the books, suggested as much online.
Thats interesting. Probably also means that the system will never see print again though :(
Quote from: TristramEvans;724627Are they still around? What do they do nowadays?
Lisa Pondsmith is selling reprints of their old CP2020, Mekton, and a couple other games while Mike is working on the project for the Cyberpunk computer game. Nothing new, honestly. The slow pace makes me sad.
Quote from: TristramEvans;724633Thats interesting. Probably also means that the system will never see print again though :(
The funny thing is, DC Comics owns a great system, and they licensed their characters to Green Ronin for Mutants & Masterminds.
I guess somebody could get a hold of DC and ask them if they could use the system and see what happens. My guess is they probably would deny anyone or claim they have no idea what they are talking about.
Quote from: TristramEvans;724627Are they still around? What do they do nowadays?
They are still around. The last thing I remember them doing was a
Mekton Zero kickstarter.
Ars Magica
Atlas is still supporting the game.
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/
Pendragon
Currently published POD. There are supplements in the works, but they have been in the works for a very long time.
http://www.nocturnal-media.com/games/pendragon
Quote from: Endless Flight;724632I think Mayfair mistakenly licensed it to Pulsar thinking they still owned the system. Pulsar was bought by a couple guys on the DC mailing list and they were going to release an improved edition ten years ago, but that never happened I would think because they don't actually own the system and have no rights to it, even via license.
If you look in one of the 1st edition DC Heroes RPG books it says "DC Heroes Role Playing Game is a trademark of Mayfair Games, under license from DC Comics, Inc." It also says under credits: "Copyright 1985 DC Comics, Inc."
I think even Ray Winninger, who wrote a lot of the sourcebooks, suggested as much online.
Star Wars D6 has a similar copyright notice. "R TM and Copyright (year) Lucasfilm LTD. All Rights Reserved. Trademarks of LFL used by West End Games under authorization"
And yet, the D6 system was West End Games, not LFL
You could probably change/adapt certain parts of the DC Heroes game system to make it similar in play but your own take. As mentioned it's in limbo, and even the people who bought Pulsar games seem to have forgotten about it which is a shame. Only thing is, if DC do own the game system, how come Pulsar were able to put out two editions of BoH using that system without any bother from the lawyers? Also that whole 'can't copyright mechanics, only the expression of...' thing probably applies.
I figure if you put out a retro clone, stripped of anything resembling DC and re-written (BoH is a BIG book, but it does admittedly have the best version of the rules. The art is excruciating though and the layout is page after page of eye blurring text walls) from scratch, DC (or anyone else) wouldn't bat an eyelid - so long as you weren't making any money from it.
Look at the Marvel Superheroes Game. Scanned and available on the internet for free for years now. In the grand scheme of things I guess RPGs are chump change to companies like Time Warner. It's all the IP stuff and film material they are interested in, not games played with funny dice.
That said... it's a big company with a lot of lawyers... and no one wants to be the 'test case'.
Can't there be a DC Heroes retroclone? Rewrite of the rules with the names changed and that's all?
The whole 'you can't copyright rule mechanics' thing.
Quote from: ptingler;724646Ars Magica
Atlas is still supporting the game.
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/
Indeed, they put out a new supplement just a few weeks back. 5th Edition's become by far the best-supported version of the game, with Atlas showing real judgement in where an entire new supplement is needed and where the same purpose can be served with an updated revision of one of the old classics.
QuotePendragon
Currently published POD. There are supplements in the works, but they have been in the works for a very long time.
http://www.nocturnal-media.com/games/pendragon
Actually, Nocturnal have been putting out the supplements on Drivethru for a while now.
Quote from: TristramEvans;724615BESM
GoO went out of business a while ago, but BESM 2e remains one of my favourite little systems. A few years ago White Wolf's now-defunct Arthouse division put out a rather disappointing 3rd ed. Does WW currently still own the rights and any plans for a new edition?
I think CCP (of Eve fame), who bought WW, probably own it. I don't think they sold it to Onyx Path, they seem to have only picked up the WoD type stuff.
Quote from: Simlasa;724663Can't there be a DC Heroes retroclone? Rewrite of the rules with the names changed and that's all?
The whole 'you can't copyright rule mechanics' thing.
From my understanding that basically what "Blood of Heros" is
Quote from: Brander;724667I think CCP (of Eve fame), who bought WW, probably own it. I don't think they sold it to Onyx Path, they seem to have only picked up the WoD type stuff.
I could be wrong but I think Mark MacKinnon still owns the rights to BESM 2e/Tri-Stat. Arthaus/Onyx whatever owns the rights to BESM 3rd.
Quote from: JeremyR;724660Star Wars D6 has a similar copyright notice. "R TM and Copyright (year) Lucasfilm LTD. All Rights Reserved. Trademarks of LFL used by West End Games under authorization"
And yet, the D6 system was West End Games, not LFL
Well, the before-mentioned Ray Winninger said that Greg Gorden (creator of the MEGS system) believed he owned the system, but Ray could never find any contract stating such. The contracts he saw all stated that DC Comics owned the game, system and all.
The last time Pulsar Games made any noise was when they said there were some legal issues with the ownership of the system. No doubt this was the case.
It's relatively legal-easy to make a retroclone of a d20 product because of the OGL. Making one based on a game owned by Time-Warner is another matter altogether.
Quote from: Ronin;724705I could be wrong but I think Mark MacKinnon still owns the rights to BESM 2e/Tri-Stat. Arthaus/Onyx whatever owns the rights to BESM 3rd.
Could be, I'd be curious to know for sure. Had I a little more extra $$$ I'd be tempted to inquire and potentially make an offer. BESM 2nd was a very good system; BESM 3rd, not so much, though it tried very hard. Something around a 2.5 would have been my preference.
Quote from: Endless Flight;724710It's relatively legal-easy to make a retroclone of a d20 product because of the OGL. Making one based on a game owned by Time-Warner is another matter altogether.
Yeah, Im not sure Id risk it. Right now Im working on an adaption of FASERIP, and the changes Ive needed to maje to stay away fron the original presentation are significant enough that its going to be hard to keep it compatible with the original system, which was a goal for me. And with that at least I have 4c and Icons to hide behind, legally. But Im hoping obscurity will keep it out of the eyes of Disney Lawyers regardless.
DCH was a system I admired a lot. That one extra chart in resolution kept it from surpassing MSH for me, but it was a very nicely structured game for supers of disparate power levels. It deserves to be available in some form.
Quote from: Simlasa;724663Can't there be a DC Heroes retroclone? Rewrite of the rules with the names changed and that's all?
The whole 'you can't copyright rule mechanics' thing.
There are aspects of the DCH system that are non-obvious and not easily replicated without running afoul of copyright
I love chart systems, but they're kind of a bitch to clone, because if the chart's been designed in such a way as to actually take advantage of the form, it also makes it a distinct expression.
If there were a clear formula behind the chart, you could get away with it I think (like 4C kinda did, though that one was weird about distributing the chart; some versions didn't have it at first). But attempts have been made in the past to put a formula to the thing, and the result makes Alternate Realities look like Fudge.
So you're pretty much stuck replicating the chart, which means copying it wholesale, and that's a no-no as far as I can see.
Quote from: Brander;724667I think CCP (of Eve fame), who bought WW, probably own it. I don't think they sold it to Onyx Path, they seem to have only picked up the WoD type stuff.
Actually, so far as I am aware CCP are only really interested in controlling WoD and Exalted - this is why Onyx Path only has a licence instead of owning those lines outright. Onyx Path owns Scion and Aberrant/Adventure/Aeon outright, presumably because CCP had no interest in keeping the properties.
The various Arthaus games like Pendragon and BESM seem to have a more mysterious status. I know Greg Stafford was able to simply pull Pendragon and let another publisher do it because he never sold it outright to WW, just gave them a licence, so I do wonder whether BESM 3rd is in a similar situation.
Quote from: Endless Flight;724632If you look in one of the 1st edition DC Heroes RPG books it says "DC Heroes Role Playing Game is a trademark of Mayfair Games, under license from DC Comics, Inc." It also says under credits: "Copyright 1985 DC Comics, Inc."
I think Greg Gorden said he was "sure" Mayfair actually owned the system and just the specific implementation was owned by DC, which is why Pulsar was able to publish Blood of Heroes. Which means nothing for us as DC/Marvel can employ better lawyers than anyone would could hope to challenge that copyright. DC Heroes is still my favorite superhero rpg, and that fucking abomination BoH didn't do anything to help.
Isn't BoH mostly made up of fan rules posted on the mailing list (still going strong and still impenetrable to newcomers in terms of trying to converse or figure out what is going on)?
It kind of bloated the rules in the way Hero system starting seeing in 4e and by 5e it resembled a breeze block in size. Yeah, sure, the art made it rancid to look at, and that game world thing tacked onto the back - has anyone ever used that, ever? Aside from that the game plays pretty much the same, but there's plenty I'm not keen on over 3e, and some that I'm ok with.
It is really dry, like school textbook dry, reading mind :(
Quote from: APNIt kind of bloated the rules in the way Hero system starting seeing in 4e and by 5e it resembled a breeze block in size. Yeah, sure, the art made it rancid to look at, and that game world thing tacked onto the back - has anyone ever used that, ever? Aside from that the game plays pretty much the same, but there's plenty I'm not keen on over 3e, and some that I'm ok with.
(
I pull the book out every now and then just to marvel at how Lefield-esque the character designs / write-ups are; that sort of shit is one thing I don't miss from the 90's for sure.
Quote from: APN;725000Isn't BoH mostly made up of fan rules posted on the mailing list (still going strong and still impenetrable to newcomers in terms of trying to converse or figure out what is going on)?
More or less, yes.
The problem is that writeups.org has pretty much come to dominate the culture around the game. Because of the mechanical stigma of the tables and their difficulty in online play, actual play culture has dwindled, leaving mostly just a lot of nerds tinkering about trying to simulate every conceivable superhero ever recorded.
This meant a lot of the rules modifications that've become semi-canon amongst the writeups and DCH list crowd are largely uninformed by any actual play concerns, and BOH was written with pretty much all the standard fanon changes.
So even casting aside the bad art and laughable setting, even the rules themselves are a pointless waste of paper. They're still 95% the same as DCH3, and the other 5% has nothing to offer anyone wanting to play the thing.
You're better off just hunting down a copy of 3e or 2e, really.
Quote from: J Arcane;725020More or less, yes.
The problem is that writeups.org has pretty much come to dominate the culture around the game. Because of the mechanical stigma of the tables and their difficulty in online play, actual play culture has dwindled, leaving mostly just a lot of nerds tinkering about trying to simulate every conceivable superhero ever recorded.
I'm with J Arcane here; too much inbreeding of ideas and no oversight, or you know playtesting to see how they work..
I corresponded briefly with Mark McKinnon just now about BESM, he wrote:
As far as I know, nothing has changed for the past eight years and CCP still retains the property.
Quote from: fuseboy;725041I corresponded briefly with Mark McKinnon just now about BESM, he wrote:
As far as I know, nothing has changed for the past eight years and CCP still retains the property.
I really cant stand it when companies sit on IPs.
Quote from: J Arcane;725020So even casting aside the bad art and laughable setting, even the rules themselves are a pointless waste of paper. They're still 95% the same as DCH3, and the other 5% has nothing to offer anyone wanting to play the thing.
You're better off just hunting down a copy of 3e or 2e, really.
Truer words were never written about the subject. I spent $80 on a copy of DCH 3rd edition because I was so displeased with BoH.
Quote from: APN;725000Isn't BoH mostly made up of fan rules posted on the mailing list (still going strong and still impenetrable to newcomers in terms of trying to converse or figure out what is going on)?
I joined that list years and years ago but the only thing they talk about are their write-ups of fourth-rate heroes and villains.
DC Heroes, Champions, M&M 2E and 3E all have the same problem: the character build system is counter-intuitive and rewards system mastery, while the rest of the rules for actually playing are mediocre at best or in some cases actually broken. Combined with a community of people who have difficulty getting enough like-minded gamers together to actually play the games, and you get an online culture that's exclusively about building characters and nothing else.
DCH is better than those other three. :D
Yes, DC Heroes you're probably right; I should have said "Blood of Heroes" there.
DC Heroes' biggest problem is its lack of resolution at the low end and the cumbersome table lookups for everything; makes it difficult to play Batman: Dark Knight style books without giving Batman grotesquely inflated stats.
I never found the table look-ups to be much of a problem. It usually only took me a few seconds at most and I found it part of the enjoyment of playing the game.
Didnt Teenagers from Outer Space see a reprint around 2000 or so?
Quote from: TristramEvans;725043I really cant stand it when companies sit on IPs.
(shrugs) That's the way the law works. We don't get to publish bootlegs of our favorite out-of-print authors, and we don't get to fire up a production line and make Pontiac GTOs, and we don't get to film
Firefly spinoffs. The companies still own the properties.
Id like to see that change. Though probably not in our lifetime. Copyright law has gotten a bit out of hand, especially with Disney going to court to extend it further and further anytime it looks like Mickey might fall into the public domain. Theres also companies that exist solely to sit on IPs and sue the crap out of anyone who comes along and does something similar.
Id like to see that change. Though probably not in our lifetime. Copyright law has gotten a bit out of hand, especially with Disney going to court to extend it further and further anytime it looks like Mickey might fall into the public domain. Theres also companies that exist solely to sit on IPs and sue the crap out of anyone who comes along and does something similar.
TristramEvans
I don't have as much a problem with Disney when they are using their IP / trade mark. They have something that has value and need to defend it.
Especially since Amber Diceless is my favorite game and is held in limbo by the estate that doesn't care about us at all.
Its the second category you mentioned of stuff just lying around unused and devalued. I actually liked DC heroes system for the world that it was trying to portray and make functional. It worked for me. I wish we could get a Blood of heroes treatment (I know nothing about what they did to the system never having been able to get a copy) for the MEGS system perhaps done with better art and background/world but a new superhero world using that system.
I used that system for a space combat/exploration PBeM game and it worked out fine as well.
Just my thoughts.
It doesn't work out like the table but you could use Target Number=11 + Opposing Value then roll 2D10+Acting value. Hit the target number? Success. For every 2 points over target value, add +1 to Effect value.
Or you could have a chart that emulates the bonus to effect value the higher you roll, say:
(http://s9.postimg.org/nlh5s69vz/table.jpg)
Or something to that effect (where the lh column is the amount you roll over the target number and the rh column is the amount you add to the effect value)
e.g. Batguy hits Clowndude. Batguy has 9AV. Clowndude has 6 OV. The target number is 17 (11+6).
Batguy rolls 2D10 (coming up with 8,3) plus AV (9) for a total of 20. That's 3 points over target number so add +1 Effect Value.
Batguys strength (5)+1 = 6 minus Clowndudes body (4) means Clowndud takes 2 damage, either to his current Body or soak it up with last ditch defence.
I'd also have it where you can buy additional dice to use with Hero Points. E.g. 5 for 1st extra die, 10 for the second (total 15), 15 for the 3rd (total 30) and so on. Roll all dice, then pick the two you want and discard the rest.
An 'off the top of my head' way to emulate (sort of) DC heroes without a table. Or with a very small table.
Quote from: ptingler;724646Ars Magica
Atlas is still supporting the game.
http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/
And they're doing a heck of a fine job. Fifth edition (which is over nine years old at this point) is seen by the majority of the fan base as head and shoulders above any prior edition in nearly every way (except accessibility, where there is much to be said for second edition). It has 35 supplements to date and there's not a bad book in the lot.
Welcome Tyrrell!
Thank you
Quote from: Tyrrell;725309And they're doing a heck of a fine job. Fifth edition (which is over nine years old at this point) is seen by the majority of the fan base as head and shoulders above any prior edition in nearly every way (except accessibility, where there is much to be said for second edition). It has 35 supplements to date and there's not a bad book in the lot.
Thats good to know. I was an avid player of 3rd/4th edition in the 90s and have been thinking recently of getting into it again. Love the setting and premise and still my favourite magic system.
FGU is still printing Villains & Vigilantes.
Problem is FGU effectively stole the game from the original designers on a technicality dodge.
Sometimes a reprint is not a good thing.
Though cases like this are rare.
Quote from: TristramEvans;725043I really cant stand it when companies sit on IPs.
If CCP is sitting on it, I imagine it's because nobody has been willing to meet their price (or made an offer?). They had a bad-ish stretch a couple years back where they scaled back their WoD goals and let a lot of people go, when they let their vision get in the way of EVE being a spaceship game. I don't know, but expect, that they would have gladly offloaded it then if they could have got money for it.
What's a property like BESM d20 worth, anyways? I mean, I have lots of fond memories of playing and running it, very far from perfect but it hit a sweet spot of "has anime stuff" and "is close enough to D&D that there's minimal onboarding/system fatigue".
Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;725285I don't have as much a problem with Disney when they are using their IP / trade mark. They have something that has value and need to defend it.
I do; Disney is well known for being assholes about this. I was all set to do a Zorro book for GURPS Swashbucklers, and Disney sent a cease-and-desist, claiming they owned the property on the strength of their 1950s Zorro TV series. This was plainly absurd, but I really couldn't blame SJG for wanting no part of the inevitable court battle; what Disney spends on the corporate counsel's office's cafeteria a year probably exceeds SJG's annual gross income.
Quote from: Alathon;725402If CCP is sitting on it, I imagine it's because nobody has been willing to meet their price (or made an offer?). They had a bad-ish stretch a couple years back where they scaled back their WoD goals and let a lot of people go, when they let their vision get in the way of EVE being a spaceship game. I don't know, but expect, that they would have gladly offloaded it then if they could have got money for it.
What's a property like BESM d20 worth, anyways? I mean, I have lots of fond memories of playing and running it, very far from perfect but it hit a sweet spot of "has anime stuff" and "is close enough to D&D that there's minimal onboarding/system fatigue".
We've been talking about the original tri-stat version not the d20 one but whatever.
Quote from: Tyrrell;725309And they're doing a heck of a fine job. Fifth edition (which is over nine years old at this point) is seen by the majority of the fan base as head and shoulders above any prior edition in nearly every way (except accessibility, where there is much to be said for second edition). It has 35 supplements to date and there's not a bad book in the lot.
Yeah, I really like latest one - "Transforming Mythic Europe", which is a supplement about using magic to radically change the landscape (physical, political, whatever of Europe). Of course, it's always been the case in the game that this is decidedly against the Order of Hermes' rules (to explain why the setting looks like real history instead of a radically divergent alt-history), but Atlas are wise enough to realise that having that ban in place is interesting precisely because of when and how the PCs decide to defy the ban and provide appropriate support.
Plus they've expanded Houses of Hermes into a really solid three-book line, and they've got Realms of Power supplement for all 4 Realms (thank you Atlas for removing that Mage: the Ascension-inspired Realm of Reason bullshit that crept in during 3rd), plus they put out this really neat Apprentices supplement that add young trainee wizards to the usual magi/grogs/companions breakdown of characters, plus...
Man, I really want to play some ArsM5, it's been too long.
Quote from: Omega;725399FGU is still printing Villains & Vigilantes.
Problem is FGU effectively stole the game from the original designers on a technicality dodge.
Sometimes a reprint is not a good thing.
Though cases like this are rare.
Actually, it seems the original designers are still putting out their own version too (http://www.lulu.com/shop/jeff-dee-and-jack-herman/villains-and-vigilantes-softcover/paperback/product-11915438.html).
Quote from: Warthur;725502Actually, it seems the original designers are still putting out their own version too (http://www.lulu.com/shop/jeff-dee-and-jack-herman/villains-and-vigilantes-softcover/paperback/product-11915438.html).
Saw that. But they still lost their original stuff to FGU and doesnt look like they will ever get it back at this rate.
Didn't Jackson have simmilar hassles getting The Fantasy Trip away from Metagaming and eventually created GURPS?
Apparently Jeff Dee and Jack Herman won their case vs. FGU and can cancel their 1979 contract with them as of this year.
Lord Hobie
Quote from: Omega;726102Saw that. But they still lost their original stuff to FGU and doesnt look like they will ever get it back at this rate.
The version they are currently selling is a corrected version of 2nd edition, which FGU put out, so it looks like either they don't care or they did in fact get the rights back.
Quote from: Omega;726102Didn't Jackson have simmilar hassles getting The Fantasy Trip away from Metagaming and eventually created GURPS?
It was simply that Howard Thompson's and Steve Jackson's breakup was nasty, and that Thompson would only let
TFT go to him for an absurd amount of money for the time -- six figures. After a short bit of wrangling, Jackson said "screw that" and decided to write a new game, if he couldn't get his old one. Hence GURPS.
Thankfully, Stafford owns the rights to Pendragon. He's done great things with it, too.
Quote from: jeff37923;724637They are still around. The last thing I remember them doing was a Mekton Zero kickstarter.
Yep, Mekton Zero is due out about any time now (they're a little bit behind on the release).
Quote from: TristramEvans;724615Ars Magica
The 4th edition corebook is available free on Drive-Thru
I can't find it, do you have a link?
Quote from: Maese Mateo;728027I can't find it, do you have a link?
I vouldnt find it either; might have been taken down, but you can still get it free here:
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204 (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204)
Quote from: TristramEvans;728029I vouldnt find it either; might have been taken down, but you can still get it free here:
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204 (http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204)
Thank you!:D
not a game (obviously) but related to the OT--
would love to see a Wormy compilation one day :(
Quote from: beeber;728125not a game (obviously) but related to the OT--
would love to see a Wormy compilation one day :(
I dont know what that is?
I looked this up recently because someone mentioned Trampier, who I didn't know was responsible for a lot of the cool pics in the old Monster Manual. He also drew a comic that appeared in Dragon magazine, called Wormy.
One day in the middle of it all Trampier just quit illustrating, stops caching his checks or returning phone calls, and now seems to be a cab driver.
Quote from: TristramEvans;728515I dont know what that is?
Newb.
Quote from: beeber;728125not a game (obviously) but related to the OT--
would love to see a Wormy compilation one day :(
Isnt it all in the Dragon magazine CD? True, its spread over the magazines. but should all be there.
Tom Wham and an investigator have talked about Trampier now and then. Consensus seems to be that any hope of seeing more is worse than DOA.
Quote from: RPGPundit;729029Newb.
Since its apparently a comic strip from Dragon, no wonder I didnt recognize the name. Avoided those like the plague.
Quote from: TristramEvans;729496Since its apparently a comic strip from Dragon, no wonder I didnt recognize the name. Avoided those like the plague.
Yeah. Let's see, gaming mags to which I subscribed, beside APAs:
Different Worlds, White Dwarf, Space Gamer, Autoduel Quarterly ... nope, no
Dragon in there.
Woo! Yeah! Way to take pride in not reading Dragon! Look at how unmainstream you are!!!
Quote from: RPGPundit;729844Woo! Yeah! Way to take pride in not reading Dragon! Look at how unmainstream you are!!!
(shrugs) I play GURPS. I don't need to work at being "unmainstream," provided that being "unmainstream" was anything particularly worth being for the sake of being it.
Quote from: Ravenswing;729946(shrugs) I play GURPS. I don't need to work at being "unmainstream," provided that being "unmainstream" was anything particularly worth being for the sake of being it.
Too cool to care if he's being cool or not.
Quote from: RPGPundit;729844Woo! Yeah! Way to take pride in not reading Dragon! Look at how unmainstream you are!!!
Agreed. Though after a while Dragon stopped being so open and became more and more TSR-centric.
Not as horribly as White Dwarf. But still. Missed the articles for other companies games.
Otherwise it had alot of usefull stuff and some great modules and mini-games.
Quote from: Omega;730174Agreed. Though after a while Dragon stopped being so open and became more and more TSR-centric.
Not as horribly as White Dwarf. But still. Missed the articles for other companies games.
Otherwise it had alot of usefull stuff and some great modules and mini-games.
Yeah, I'll agree that Dragon became less cool as it went along.
Quote from: RPGPundit;729844Woo! Yeah! Way to take pride in not reading Dragon! Look at how unmainstream you are!!!
For someone whose main complaint against Forgists is that they're pretentious, you sure are acting pretentious.
Quote from: TristramEvans;730734For someone whose main complaint against Forgists is that they're pretentious, you sure are acting pretentious.
It was a criticism of people who feel they're too elite to read Dragon.
RPGPundit
wonder if mike could be convinced to do a new tfos once the new mekton is in the bag... all the new mekton stuff is on a wordpress blog makes me wonder if they lost control of the RTG domain name or something.
Quote from: RPGPundit;728007Thankfully, Stafford owns the rights to Pendragon. He's done great things with it, too.
I'm excited about everyone of his new releases. I'm only disappointed that the current books are roughly directed towards the Uther era instead of the Arthurian era.
Quote from: Crabbyapples;731163I'm excited about everyone of his new releases. I'm only disappointed that the current books are roughly directed towards the Uther era instead of the Arthurian era.
Well yeah; the ideal is that they give an even spread of all the different ages (like the GPC book did).
RPGPundit
Anyone know who owns "The Fantasy Trip"?
Quote from: Piestrio;731667Anyone know who owns "The Fantasy Trip"?
The guy who owns Metagaming. Who dissapeared.
Quote from: Piestrio;731667Anyone know who owns "The Fantasy Trip"?
Howard Thompson never sold the rights. I've seen a couple bootlegs so close as to make for copyright violations, but whether Thompson knows or cares, nothing's ever been done.
Quote from: RPGPundit;731035It was a criticism of people who feel they're too elite to read Dragon.
RPGPundit
Fail to see the difference between that and considering oneself elite for reading comicstrips from Dragon.
Quote from: RPGPundit;731035It was a criticism of people who I've imagined feel that they're too elite to read Dragon.
RPGPundit
There. Fixed that for you, considering that it might not have occurred to you that people who didn't, in fact, play D&D could conceivably have little interest in reading D&D's house magazine.
Quote from: TristramEvans;731790Fail to see the difference between that and considering oneself elite for reading comicstrips from Dragon.
Heh ... got a point there. Me, I've got a hard time figuring out why someone would take offense because someone else didn't read a magazine he liked, but the world's full of mysteries which surpass my understanding.
Quote from: Ravenswing;731872people who didn't, in fact, play D&D could conceivably have little interest in reading D&D's house magazine.
That was true for some time of Dragon's print run.
But there was a time when I found TSR (and Dragon) quite open towards other games. Not as open and useful as White Dwarf (at the same time), but still. Some of the articles were dealing with themes that were not limited to D&D. History, medieval life, religions, thieves guilds, commerce, or meta themes like problem players, DM skills, convention games, stuff like that.
Especially the review section was sometimes surprisingly honest. I liked that they grouped their reviews thematically ("post apocalypse games", "horror games"), mostly tied to the event of a TSR release in said genre. But often a competing product would be rated higher than the TSR offering.
But I agree that you would have to be a regular Dragon reader to notice that. If the mind was set on "Dragon = TSR" or "Dragon = AD&D" then you didn't bother giving Dragon a second look.
Quote from: Ravenswing;731693Howard Thompson never sold the rights. I've seen a couple bootlegs so close as to make for copyright violations, but whether Thompson knows or cares, nothing's ever been done.
Thompson vanished around 84. Far as I know he hasnt returned since.
Whereas some people were apparently wishing that the guy who mismanaged GOO had not returned.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;731900But I agree that you would have to be a regular Dragon reader to notice that. If the mind was set on "Dragon = TSR" or "Dragon = AD&D" then you didn't bother giving Dragon a second look.
And, after all, those other magazines I was already getting. When by 1982 -- and from there on forward -- I was locked in to TFT and then GURPS, no need even for those save for the
Space Gamer.Quote from: Omega;731903Thompson vanished around 84. Far as I know he hasnt returned since.
1983. Gamelords had a license to churn out TFT products, and we were happily at work on two more cities and the final two setting books for Land Beyond The Mountains, when Thompson pulled the plug.
Some folks tracked him down just a few years ago, but he's left RPGs far behind and has no interest in discussing business further.
Quote from: Ravenswing;731872There. Fixed that for you, considering that it might not have occurred to you that people who didn't, in fact, play D&D could conceivably have little interest in reading D&D's house magazine.
Haven't you heard? Not liking Dragon is undemocratic.
QuoteHeh ... got a point there. Me, I've got a hard time figuring out why someone would take offense because someone else didn't read a magazine he liked, but the world's full of mysteries which surpass my understanding.
Gamers are a strange bunch.
Quote from: TristramEvans;731790Fail to see the difference between that and considering oneself elite for reading comicstrips from Dragon.
There's nothing "elite" about that. Its considering one's self normal.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ravenswing;732051And, after all, those other magazines I was already getting. When by 1982 -- and from there on forward -- I was locked in to TFT and then GURPS, no need even for those save for the Space Gamer.
1983. Gamelords had a license to churn out TFT products, and we were happily at work on two more cities and the final two setting books for Land Beyond The Mountains, when Thompson pulled the plug.
Some folks tracked him down just a few years ago, but he's left RPGs far behind and has no interest in discussing business further.
So, in a case like this, when the original copyright is more than 30 years old and the original holder didn't renew it and doesn't seem to want to use or defend the property, when does it become legal for someone else to do anything with it? In the US at least, there used to be a 28 year period to an original copyright.
Quote from: Alathon;725402If CCP is sitting on it, I imagine it's because nobody has been willing to meet their price (or made an offer?). They had a bad-ish stretch a couple years back where they scaled back their WoD goals and let a lot of people go, when they let their vision get in the way of EVE being a spaceship game. I don't know, but expect, that they would have gladly offloaded it then if they could have got money for it.
From what I've heard, they're not exactly sitting on it by choice ... it's that MacKinnon left GoO's finances and contracts in such a tangled mess that no one is sure who can do anything with the material and under what conditions and obligations.
Quote from: Larsdangly;739021So, in a case like this, when the original copyright is more than 30 years old and the original holder didn't renew it and doesn't seem to want to use or defend the property, when does it become legal for someone else to do anything with it? In the US at least, there used to be a 28 year period to an original copyright.
If the work was written by an author and not a corporation, it's the author's life plus 70 years, giving his heirs exclusive rights for a few generations of his survivors.
Corporations have rights for 120 years after creation or 95 years after first publication, whichever comes sooner.
So, for the most part, unless your a fan of a very old author, you're not gonna get to play with their stuff--your grandkids will probably get to though.
Quote from: JRT;739023If the work was written by an author and not a corporation, it's the author's life plus 70 years, giving his heirs exclusive rights for a few generations of his survivors.
Corporations have rights for 120 years after creation or 95 years after first publication, whichever comes sooner.
So, for the most part, unless your a fan of a very old author, you're not gonna get to play with their stuff--your grandkids will probably get to though.
Assuming that Disney doesn't buy off another crop of lawmakers to extend it when the mouse comes near public domain again. And the Supreme Court as well. Since, you know, it's still "limited" even if it's just a few thousand years...
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;739022From what I've heard, they're not exactly sitting on it by choice ... it's that MacKinnon left GoO's finances and contracts in such a tangled mess that no one is sure who can do anything with the material and under what conditions and obligations.
That is very likely. If this is the MacKinnon I think it is then the level of mishandling near the end of GOO was pretty bad.
I am told he then he had the gall to return a year or so ago with some sort of kickstarter and the the plea of "Ive changed! Trust me!" Havent found the article or KS yet to see for myself. Just the original blogs from a co-worker detailing his and other publishers stunts.
Quote from: JRT;739023If the work was written by an author and not a corporation, it's the author's life plus 70 years, giving his heirs exclusive rights for a few generations of his survivors.
Corporations have rights for 120 years after creation or 95 years after first publication, whichever comes sooner.
So, for the most part, unless your a fan of a very old author, you're not gonna get to play with their stuff--your grandkids will probably get to though.
How confident are you about that rule? Was it the case 30 years ago? I am sure I read that between something like ~'65 and ~'95 the law in the US was a 28 year window, which was then extended by another 20 years by a change of law that happened in the mid-90's. At least that is what the wikipedia page on copyright law seems to imply.
Quote from: Larsdangly;739040How confident are you about that rule? Was it the case 30 years ago? I am sure I read that between something like ~'65 and ~'95 the law in the US was a 28 year window, which was then extended by another 20 years by a change of law that happened in the mid-90's. At least that is what the wikipedia page on copyright law seems to imply.
There's a few exceptions if the work was published before 1978. Here's the basics
http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm
Basically, bases on that chart, if you are talking about RPGs, unless they had no copyright notice and was published before 1978, it's still going to be 95 years. So if you wanted to reprint original D&D you can't do it until 2069.
Perhaps the law is clear on this for all the properties we can easily think of. Exceptions might include some of the games that came out from small presses (nearly like 'fanzines') right after D&D was published. En Guard is one like this that I recall, though I'm sure there were others. I'll bet it is possible some of these never sorted out their copyrights at the time.
Anyway, the copyright restrictions don't really limit access to most roleplaying games (yet...) because they remain in print and/or have someone out there willing to sell you a legal pdf or some kind of POD service. What worries me are the less popular games that were never printed after their first run, those copies are now disappearing or decaying to the point where there is a significant limitation on availability, and no one has stepped up to offer a legal electronic or physical reprint. Some of these games will just be gone in another 10 years or so.
The 'retroclone' approach is the current answer to this for a lot of games, and I understand lots of people are really into it (I've written several of these myself, and they were works of love). But I find it unsatisfying as a general solution for several reasons.
One is ethical, though it may sound strange to say it. if I were an author of one of these works I'ld rather people read my original words, stolen or paid for, than have them create a pastiche with the serial numbers filed off, as if I'ld never even existed. I know people feel like the law pushes them into this, but it feels wrong to me anyway. Yes, even though I've done it.
A second is I'm not convinced all of this is as cleanly legal as we tell ourselves. If you pulled the crap we pull with some property that was actually worth something, you would probably end up in court and you would probably lose. Try publishing a book called 'Blarry Blotter and the Blorcerer's Blone' and see what the courts think of it. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect our community has created a kind of gray zone of retroclone publishing that succeeds because little is at stake so no one cares enough to disagree with what we say the rules are.
A third reason is creative: I actually don't think retroclones have the creative spark of the original games they copy. It all just feels a bit limp compared to the originals.
No solution or positive message to end on here; I think the situation is just kind of a drag for some of these cool old abandoned games!
Quote from: Larsdangly;739051Perhaps the law is clear on this for all the properties we can easily think of. Exceptions might include some of the games that came out from small presses (nearly like 'fanzines') right after D&D was published. En Guard is one like this that I recall, though I'm sure there were others. I'll bet it is possible some of these never sorted out their copyrights at the time.
Anyway, the copyright restrictions don't really limit access to most roleplaying games (yet...) because they remain in print and/or have someone out there willing to sell you a legal pdf or some kind of POD service. What worries me are the less popular games that were never printed after their first run, those copies are now disappearing or decaying to the point where there is a significant limitation on availability, and no one has stepped up to offer a legal electronic or physical reprint. Some of these games will just be gone in another 10 years or so.
The 'retroclone' approach is the current answer to this for a lot of games, and I understand lots of people are really into it (I've written several of these myself, and they were works of love). But I find it unsatisfying as a general solution for several reasons.
One is ethical, though it may sound strange to say it. if I were an author of one of these works I'ld rather people read my original words, stolen or paid for, than have them create a pastiche with the serial numbers filed off, as if I'ld never even existed. I know people feel like the law pushes them into this, but it feels wrong to me anyway. Yes, even though I've done it.
A second is I'm not convinced all of this is as cleanly legal as we tell ourselves. If you pulled the crap we pull with some property that was actually worth something, you would probably end up in court and you would probably lose. Try publishing a book called 'Blarry Blotter and the Blorcerer's Blone' and see what the courts think of it. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect our community has created a kind of gray zone of retroclone publishing that succeeds because little is at stake so no one cares enough to disagree with what we say the rules are.
A third reason is creative: I actually don't think retroclones have the creative spark of the original games they copy. It all just feels a bit limp compared to the originals.
No solution or positive message to end on here; I think the situation is just kind of a drag for some of these cool old abandoned games!
Well on the point of if this were another industry things would be different I disagree. This is games and games have that odd rule that you can't copyright the mechanics. This does happen in big money industry. It happens all the time in software games. Think scrabble vs words with friends or it prior name scrabbulous. Hell Zynga gets tarred with the whole copied all but the name all the time. And thats video games which is pretty much as big money as you can get. Bigger than movies. Bigger than books. You couldn't do the example you gave because thats a novel but in games well its a lot more wild west.
Quote from: Larsdangly;739021So, in a case like this, when the original copyright is more than 30 years old and the original holder didn't renew it and doesn't seem to want to use or defend the property, when does it become legal for someone else to do anything with it? In the US at least, there used to be a 28 year period to an original copyright.
Alright. First off, folks, never mind the Wikipedia article. Copyright law is a tangled, convoluted mess, over which lawyers make oodles of money happily arguing the merits of both sides. There's no real international harmonization, and the goalposts keep changing. Any assertion any of you make -- and I seriously doubt there's a copyright attorney among you -- will almost certainly be wrong in one element or another, and if not now, just wait five years.
Secondly, the gaming industry complicates matters because most such items are works for hire. I own the rights to
nothing I've written for GURPS, MERP, DC Heroes, TFT or Gamelords -- all those were works for hire, for which my lump sum checks were the sole total of my compensation. Whether the various time frames involving authors kicks in for my lifespan, I have no idea, because those books have MY name on them, not a corporation's name.
Thirdly, the companies don't have to "defend" copyright. No one has to "defend" copyright ... you're confusing that with trademarks/servicemarks, Larsdangly, which
do need to be defended in certain ways and within certain time frames.
Lastly, I mentioned Disney uptopic, and that's still a telling factor. Disney doesn't
have to hold a legal copyright. Tt can just intimidate any game company in the industry with the
possible exception of WotC, and the degree to which Hasbro would want a pissing match with the Mouse, with a tenth Disney's revenue, you folks can guess as well as I can.
That is a very helpful post, mostly because it gives an insider's view of the muddled ambiguity I always suspected was hiding behind the rigid rules some people quote on this subject.
So, what happens when a copyright to some game is held by a company that dissolves? If none of the individual authors hold the rights to a game (or module or whatever), and the company that does hold them evaporated decades ago, who would you even pay if you wanted to buy the rights?
Quote from: Larsdangly;739139That is a very helpful post, mostly because it gives an insider's view of the muddled ambiguity I always suspected was hiding behind the rigid rules some people quote on this subject.
The only ambiguity I saw from that post is whether an individual person or a corporation holds the copyright. The law references I gave are pretty solid on when a copyright expires.
As far as a corporation that is dissolved, assets are not suddenly freed, so if the product is worth pursuing or publishing, you need to contact the people involved and find out how the assets were transferred. If the company publishes IP and shut down, there is either a paper trail with the owners agreements, or a creditor trail of who gained the assets in the case of a bankruptcy.
The point being, what you should NEVER do is assume it's okay to just publish somebody else's work without getting a clear license or valid legal agreement to do so, unless you absolutely know that the copyrights for those works have expired.
This conversation is making copyright sound way more complicated than the reality is for our hobby and industry.
The law in the United States is that the person making a creative work has the exclusive right to sell and make derived works from it. The person has the right to sell or transfer his copyright to another party. People have the right to hire other people to create and own the copyright as a work for hire.
Copyright don't protect ideas. Anybody can make a roleplaying game about dungeons, monsters, with characters that level. Something that Ken St. Andre did right off the bat with Tunnels & Trolls when he felt that D&D was stupid after reading it.
Later a group of people involved in the Society of Creative Anachronism created Runequest. They felt D&D did not reflect their experiences sword fighting in medieval reenactments. This was combined with Stafford's Glorantha setting.
The only time any of this is a problem is when somebody doesn't want to do original work and use somebody else creative works without permission or condition.
Complexity arises in copyright situation is because what permissions were given is not clear. If you want to avoid copyright complexity the use material where the permission for use is clearly stated.
For example,I personally own the copyright in Blackmarsh by virtue of having created it. Certainly anybody is free to create their own castle town in a monster infested swamp created by a asteroid strike. But if they want to use the specifics of what I created then they need my permission.
For Blackmarsh I gave two sets of permissions. On using a Open Game License telling you which parts are open content which are product identity. The other a creative commons licence, (Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike). Both are prominently attached to my text.
For Dungeons & Dragons, WoTC released a large subset of the rules as the d20 System Reference Document. The text was made open content under the terms of the open game license.
For the average gamers it clear that both Blackmarsh and the d20 SRD are free to use for whatever purpose they want to use them for as long as they adhere to the OGL.
What if I am a big fan of AD&D 2nd edition planescape? Well looking through the books there is no place where either TSR or later Wizard gave permission to use its content. However big of a fan, however good of an idea your derived idea is. It is clear that you don't have permission. If you make anything you write based on Planescape public you are utterly dependent on the wishes of Wizards. They could sue you, they could even give you permission, more likely they will tell you to take it down with a warning.
What about that cool Judges Guild product? Or that old classic Traveller products? The complexity comes from the fact that not all products were made under a work for hire agreement with the owner of the rule system. They were made under some type of license. Permission from the publisher to write the work and publish it but with the author retaining some rights to the work.
That where things complex. But for third parties the situation is still the same. Unless you have the correct permission you are unable to use the work in question either directly or prepared derivative works from it.
So what about derivative works? Isn't that a mess?
Yes and no. Again copyright doesn't protect ideas, it protects and expression of an idea. And the expression of a idea particularly for a game, can involved terms, presentation of tables, and packaging. So while anybody can make a game involving dungeon mazes, and character levels, if you want to be safe come up with different terms and a different presentation than Dungeon & Dragons. Note that it doesn't have to be dramatically different. What the law is ulimately wants is for people not confuse your work with the original work. So if you look at the two, read the two, and it is clear that your work is something different then you done enough.
But they are meanies and will sue me anyway!
There are three common reasons why a lawsuit will happen anyway.
1) You are really trying to make a derivative work and didn't go far enough in making it original.
2) Somebody personally dislike you in the company that sued you. This is unlikely the case for most of us but it what happened to Gygax.
3) There is enough money involved to make even a marginal lawsuit worthwhile. Again something not likely in the tabletop RPG industry.
In recent years, most people who got in trouble because of #1. They were either careless, blind, or trying to rip the other company off.
Finally nobody has to take my word for it. Just download the various documents I talked about and read it for yourself.
Game designer rights, or more aptly lack thereof, are worse than a convoluted mess because some factions of would-be-thieves want to claim that the designer has no rights. Which is false. And the publishers want to claim the designer has few to no rights, which is wrong, and the designer would just like to get their game out without having it instantly snatched and copied endlessly with a name change or other alteration. The other problem is that often the game designer is a step in a process. And they may be a small step in some cases.
We see this even in the comic book biz and other realms.
Untangling the mess is nigh impossible because the rules change from country to country. Germany and Russia are two recent examples that come up. Germany most recently last year regarding the changes in rights for game designers.
Quote from: Omega;739159Game designer rights, or more aptly lack thereof, are worse than a convoluted mess because some factions of would-be-thieves want to claim that the designer has no rights. Which is false.
In the United States if the designer created the work as a work for hire then he has no rights. And there is nothing wrong with this. I have the right to hire anybody I want to write for me with the result in my sole ownership of the copyrights in the work. Just as an author I have the right say no to a publisher when they want hire me under a work for hire agreement.
However it he instead licensed the work to the publisher under say a royalty agreement. Then under United States law he or heirs have a window several decades later to recover control of the copyright. This provision was added in recognition of the fact that many creative people starting have little leverage over their publisher.
For me personally, when I am not working on other people's material, then I opt for royalty agreement with me retaining my rights. If it is somebody else stuff, like Judges Guild Wilderlands, then I have no problem with a work for hire agreement.
Sometimes I will split the difference like I did with the Majestic Wilderlands. The original material I create is still under my copyright. However Judges Guild is free to use or publish the work I created. And I am free to use my material as long I remove any Judges Guild reference.
The moral of the story is "Be Smart, and learn about your trade before entering into agreements".
The only part of this that I find difficult is that a large fraction of the intellectual property from the first decade or so of gaming is simply abandoned. In some cases it might be a 'dog in the manger' situation, though I'll bet most cases are just disinterest (encouraged by the fact that only a couple of dozen people in the world really care about the property in question).
I understand that doesn't give anyone legal rights to do anything with that property, but it does mean the law is standing in the way of something good. The kinds of reproduction and distribution of old games that happens in our community is most similar to friends swapping mixed tapes of music they like (back when that was a thing!). No money is changing hands. No one is being hurt. Barely anyone is actually even involved. I'm sure it is illegal. But I also believe it is ethical.
Quote from: Larsdangly;739168The only part of this that I find difficult is that a large fraction of the intellectual property from the first decade or so of gaming is simply abandoned. In some cases it might be a 'dog in the manger' situation, though I'll bet most cases are just disinterest (encouraged by the fact that only a couple of dozen people in the world really care about the property in question).
Orphaned works are a serious cultural problem right now. Especially for those work that are on perishable medium like film and recordings. We already have lost stuff from the 20s and 30s due to people unable to clear the rights to reproduce them.
I feel that 28 years + 28 years with active renewal more than sufficient as copyright term length.
Quote from: estar;739171Orphaned works are a serious cultural problem right now. Especially for those work that are on perishable medium like film and recordings. We already have lost stuff from the 20s and 30s due to people unable to clear the rights to reproduce them.
I feel that 28 years + 28 years with active renewal more than sufficient as copyright term length.
Theres been a few big debates on that over at BGG. The most recent was when GameZone was doing their HeroQuest game and early on claiming that HQ was abandonware. Then claiming that they did not need to credit the original designer or pay him. Etc. Despite the game mechanics having been used in HeroScape by the original designer as late as 2010.
A weird one from the opposite direction around 2009 was Hasbro bought up the rights to Micronauts and Micro-Man. And to date has done about nothing with them.
The HQ case you describe does seem pretty unreasonable; this game is recently in print and obviously has been developed and invested in within the last couple of years. So, I totally agree 'fan-ware' is inappropriate here (other than individuals and gaming groups working with and trading around files, which I consider fair use).
The games that are foremost in my mind are more like the old film example. Some of these were last committed to hard copy 35 years ago, and were printed and bound on the cheap. They are likely in their last decade, outside of a few collector's vacuum-sealed copies.
My personal reaction to this dilemma is that I'm creating the documents I personally believe should exist as archival editions of some my favorites of these games, and I'll just sit on them for the time being. They may not be widely available to others, but at least they exist!
Quote from: Larsdangly;739139So, what happens when a copyright to some game is held by a company that dissolves? If none of the individual authors hold the rights to a game (or module or whatever), and the company that does hold them evaporated decades ago, who would you even pay if you wanted to buy the rights?
The company's assets would still belong to the company's owners or shareholders. If they were dead, they'd belong to their estates. Who would you pay? Sometimes, things just get too convoluted to make that feasible. Heck, we can all think of some real world examples.
Beyond that, companies don't always -- or even often --
dissolve. Let's take Metagaming and TFT for an example. Howard Thompson may have closed shop, and one can expect he paid off the company's liabilities, but Metagaming may well just have gone dormant, especially if he was the sole owner/shareholder. Whether Texas has particular rules regarding that, I have no idea, but that still doesn't turn Metagaming's IP into public domain.
Quote from: estar;739167In the United States if the designer created the work as a work for hire then he has no rights.
That's been the usual contract in comicbooks. However shabby the treatment in the long run may be -- and the comicbook business has been pretty shabby -- it's no bait and switch. If you don't want to work on the plantation, you can choose the other set of headaches that come with being an entrepreneur.
There's a middle route of creator-owned but not creator-published comics, more like regular book and magazine publishing. Illustrators, and especially cartoonists (in the sense of people who both write and draw the story) have an edge there.
Quote from: Omega;739180A weird one from the opposite direction around 2009 was Hasbro bought up the rights to Micronauts and Micro-Man. And to date has done about nothing with them.
If what you think is weird is Hasbro doing nothing with stuff it owns, then you don't know Hasbro.
Quote from: Phillip;739264If what you think is weird is Hasbro doing nothing with stuff it owns, then you don't know Hasbro.
Well weird in that they went to the trouble of buying up the rights from all parties and then have done nothing after an initial fanfare.
As opposed to just burying games in mid stride. Battleship: Galaxies is never going to see the expansions it was supposed to get for recent example.
Hasbro has though been parcelling out some of its acquired stock of OOP games to other companies. FFG has picked up a few now when not doing Games Workshop related games.
Quote from: Phillip;739262That's been the usual contract in comicbooks. However shabby the treatment in the long run may be -- and the comicbook business has been pretty shabby -- it's no bait and switch. If you don't want to work on the plantation, you can choose the other set of headaches that come with being an entrepreneur.
Yep. Almost every time I've been offered a choice between up front dollars and royalties. Without exception, I've chosen the former. In every case, it was the right call to make. If I hadn't wanted the deal, I wouldn't have taken the deal.
Quote from: Omega;739180A weird one from the opposite direction around 2009 was Hasbro bought up the rights to Micronauts
Micronauts! Blast from the past!
I really liked the Marvel comic book (the first run). For a comic book based on a rather bland toy figure line it was quite dark, like the episode on Acroyear's homeworld, touching themes like genocide and cold-blooded murder/revenge.
It was a darker Star Wars (complete with Vader-stand-in and a rag-tag group of rebels) plus a very campy (and unnessecary) Captain Universe linking the property to the Marvel universe. And Mike Golden artwork.
(Today I can only laugh about some of the characters - Princess Mari's psychedelic costume...)
(And is it true that Micronauts once had X-Men-like circulation?)
And regarding the rights:
While some of the characters and especially items and ships were based on toys (Acroyear, Time Traveller, Biotron, Baron Karza) some characters were created by Marvel and remained with them when the toy license ended: Marionette, Bug, Arcturus Rann.