So, I just got done reading the WW e-quarterly, and I came to this conclusion:
White-Wolf is the hardest working RPG company out there.
Maintaining at least 4 different gamelines indefinately with monthly releases, 4-5 with irregular releases, printing around 10 other games (BESM, Long live the King, Ptolus, etc) and currently developing 5-6 more (including a brand new Major Release lines in Scion, Changeling and EvE).
Compared to Wizards who maintains 1 Game indefinately with monthly releases (D&D), maybe 5 irregularly (D&D Mini's, SW Mini's, Magic the Gathering, other Minis), and Printing maybe 2 more, and developing 1 game (announced at least, Star Wars)
Or SJ Games, who has 1 release a month for one of his games lines (Munchkin or Gurps) with only a few (probably 4-5) games in development.
Thoughts, flames?
Just think it's worth pointing out WW is working hard for their 25%
Look also at Mongoose! They crank out a lot with less people and money than WW.
Mongoose definately beats out SJ Games. They're right up there with Wizards...especially now that the have a new Mini's division.
I think SJGames GURPS Line producing 1 porduct every 4 months might be wishful thinking.
QM
P.S.: I want my GURPS Vorkosigan (Delayed 3 fracking years)
Quote from: TheQuestionManI think SJgames producing 1 porduct a month muight be wishful thinking.
Actually, we did release 12 new products last year, plus circa 50 issues of Pyramid, and over two dozen issues of JTAS.
Quote from: PaulChapmanActually, we did release 12 new products last year, plus circa 50 issues of Pyramid, and over two dozen issues of JTAS.
I'd have to say that while it is one thing to release a super-huge number of products, it is another to release that many decent products. White Wolf has always churned out lots of books, but I've found that other than player's/GM's guides and core books, most of those books are rather a waste of time.
On the other hand, SJG has probably produced the largest number of actually useful supplements overall for a core game (GURPS). Something that I think is more important than the overall turnover of a machine like White Wolf.
Quote from: pigames.netI'd have to say that while it is one thing to release a super-huge number of products, it is another to release that many decent products. White Wolf has always churned out lots of books, but I've found that other than player's/GM's guides and core books, most of those books are rather a waste of time.
On the other hand, SJG has probably produced the largest number of actually useful supplements overall for a core game (GURPS). Something that I think is more important than the overall turnover of a machine like White Wolf.
There's an important point here, Mongoose churns product out of the door but it's often riddled with errors. SJ Games has a much slower release schedule, but when it's released it's generally right.
I don't play Gurps anymore, but I do think the SJ Games model is a far more laudable one than the Mongoose model. I also think in the long term it's probably a better business model, but that may be the voice of hope over cynicism on my part.
WW is certainly a sterling example of proof that quality is more important than quantity.
RPGPundit
Also, one should take into account that the full-time, in-house, WW staff was essentially three people from 2001 to 2004. Like Mongoose, they contracted out most of their work to freelancers. Now, they're down to two full-time employees, I hear (though my sources on that are unreliable).
Quote from: pigames.netI'd have to say that while it is one thing to release a super-huge number of products, it is another to release that many decent products. White Wolf has always churned out lots of books, but I've found that other than player's/GM's guides and core books, most of those books are rather a waste of time.
On the other hand, SJG has probably produced the largest number of actually useful supplements overall for a core game (GURPS). Something that I think is more important than the overall turnover of a machine like White Wolf.
And they sell supplements to people like me who don't play GURPS, because their quality is simply outstanding. You won't find me buying a Vampire supplement, for example.
-clash
To be fair, WW's supplements are pretty narrowly focused, whereas the GURPS supplements are of a more general interest.
I'd imagine that people who really dig on V:tR or M:tA or whatever find the supplements pretty useful. I don't count myself in that group, so it's mere speculation on my part. Although, I've seen a couple of Mage books that look interesting (the Boston sourcebook for instance).
Quote from: el diablo roboticoTo be fair, WW's supplements are pretty narrowly focused, whereas the GURPS supplements are of a more general interest.
I'd imagine that people who really dig on V:tR or M:tA or whatever find the supplements pretty useful. I don't count myself in that group, so it's mere speculation on my part. Although, I've seen a couple of Mage books that look interesting (the Boston sourcebook for instance).
Yeah, I considered that Boston one too.
I think the NWoD line is of far higher consistent quality than OWoD. I find with White Wolf people routinely slam them for stuff that is actually quite out of date in terms of what they're currently doing.
NWoD is a quality game line, that's in part why I used Mongoose as my example whose hit rate is not nearly so good as WW.
Quote from: BalbinusYeah, I considered that Boston one too.
I think the NWoD line is of far higher consistent quality than OWoD. I find with White Wolf people routinely slam them for stuff that is actually quite out of date in terms of what they're currently doing.
NWoD is a quality game line, that's in part why I used Mongoose as my example whose hit rate is not nearly so good as WW.
I agree here entirely, Balbinus. NWoD is a much better line than OWoD. I also agree with the good Robot Devil in that GURPS supplements are far more general interest than WoD supplements of whatever stripe. Very good point. It's not the quality alone that makes me pick up GURPS supplements, but the quality and the general interest level of the supplements together. The reason I don't buy NWoD supplements is only the interest level. I have no interest in playing Vampires and Werewolves, and little in playing Mages, or running such games. OTOH, I have been tempted to get some of the general NWoD supplements. Excellent points both.
-clash
Now I see White Wolf's problem. They shouldn't be working harder, they should be working smarter. :)
Quote from: SettembriniLook also at Mongoose! They crank out a lot with less people and money than WW.
And 99% of it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Quote from: J ArcaneAnd 99% of it isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
SpyCraft is an excellent book, and their pocket guide series is one of the best books I've ever picked up for D20.
On to other things. I think the quality of WW's books far outshines those of WotC (except the Exalted line, it's better than it was, but most of the artwork sucks, and the writing is very inconsistent) and they put out better D&D books then Wizards ever did (thanks to the Mahovoc imprint and Monte Cook).
And, directed straight at Pundy. White-Wolf is proof that you can have both quality and deliver the most quantity. I would say 90% of their releases are worth the money.
I do miss the Hey Day of SJGames. Back when Gurps was getting a shitload of supplements printed every month, Car-Wars had its own international league, Illuminati was actually a CCG (and still one of the best ones ever made) and they were able to put out other games all at the same time.
They also need to get Steve himself out of the Spotlight. He makes great, intricate games, but he's kind of a dick. Not the really the face any company wants to have.
Quote from: KrakaJakSpyCraft is an excellent book
Mongoose doesn't have anything to do with the production of Spycraft -- the corebook was developed under the auspices of AEG and is now licensed by Crafty Games (the individuals who wrote the book for AEG), and Mongoose is simply a front for getting books in print. Which, come to think of it, hasn't actually happened yet...
KoOS