Especially as I already have Stars Without Number?
From what I have read there is nothing in it that you couldn't do yourself with D&D as its the same rules, just different classes and equipment lists. I don't really see why it's getting all this hype.
Also seems more post-Star Wars sci fantasy than pre-Star Wars sci fi, the latter of which is my preference.
I don't have it, but it got panned pretty hard (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?755132-What-s-new-in-OSR&p=18992176#post18992176) over on the Big Purple. Consensus seemed to be you're better off with SWN.
Question is, how many sci-fi rpgs do you need ?
Whitestar is S&W Whitebox (a free pdf) reskinned as populist sci-fi that feels Star Wars-ish. It's a toolkit with simple rules and advice on rulings.
If you want a to play Han Solo + Mr Spock take on Daleks it hits that spot and you can always use the SNW tables/generators with it.
if you want pre 'star wars' pulp planet-based sci-fi (John Carter of Mars -style) I suggest Whitebox and Savage Swords of Athanor (free pdf) instead.
Quote from: Saladman;831378I don't have it, but it got panned pretty hard (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?755132-What-s-new-in-OSR&p=18992176#post18992176) over on the Big Purple. Consensus seemed to be you're better off with SWN.
Yeah, that doesn't sound good. OTOH, isn't the whole point of "White Box" (which this claims to be) is that rules are bad (at least any sort of rule not in the original 3 booklets) and get in the way of proper "role playing" (which went downhill with the Publication of Supplement I, Greyhawk).
So while it might not be my cup of tea (or that poster), it might be exactly what is advertised (White Box in space) and thus to some, the very pinnacle of gaming.
SWN is more B/X meets Classic Traveller, which is a good deal more complex. Though certainly not anywhere near as complex as old school games like Spacemaster or Space Opera or the dreaded Universe....
Quote from: JeremyR;831384Yeah, that doesn't sound good. OTOH, isn't the whole point of "White Box" (which this claims to be) is that rules are bad (at least any sort of rule not in the original 3 booklets) and get in the way of proper "role playing" (which went downhill with the Publication of Supplement I, Greyhawk).
So while it might not be my cup of tea (or that poster), it might be exactly what is advertised (White Box in space) and thus to some, the very pinnacle of gaming.
Fair 'nuff; I'm not buying the pdf on spec, so as I said, I only know what I've read.
But now I'm reminded of another pet peeve of mine in the world of retro-clones, which is it's like pulling teeth to get that honest take on what's under the cover. Because they sure as heck don't put any variation on what you just wrote in the ad copy; apparently we're just supposed to know it. And this isn't the first product where the real scoop on a forum bears no relation whatsoever to the official ad copy.
Read some reviews. Strengths are that all OD&D stuff ports over, so you can easily expand on the base classes and such. Spaceships are treated like creatures with AC and such. Less crunchy than SWN for sure. I DO prefer B/X fantasy variants, so maybe using tge SWN system generation with something like this might be interesting. If it's direct port, then you have a huge bestiary and other resources.
The reviewer makes some legitimate points, but evidently wants a lot more crunch.
That review does remind me of what bothers me about many "OSR" games: someone scrapes serial numbers off an existing game and slaps his name on the cover and touts it as a new game. It's "D&D in Space," essentially, but without any of the "hard sci fi" stuff from pre-Star Wars science fiction; those elements are instead replaced with the lazy mysticism of post-Star Wars science fantasy.
Also: since White Box and Swords & Wizardry are available for free, why buy this instead of just call your magic user an "Alien Mystic" and so on? I bet White Star will be a free PDF soon enough.
I would like to hear from anyone who has found this game inspired or somehow innovative or extra special for some reason, particularly if that someone can explain why and how.
White Star is a product where the author redress OD&D into a science-fiction roleplaying game.
It's content focuses on the space opera sub-genre like Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, etc.
It is a minimalist RPG and designed to be that way. In my opinion it is done right in that everything you need to run sci-fi space opera is there nothing more and nothing less. And from personal experience is harder to design a good minimalist game than not.
It has two decent innovations. The Star-Knight class is clever adaption of the D&D magic rules to simulate a Jedi, Lensmen, etc type character. The starship system is also clever in how adapt monster stats to simulate starship combat.
The downside that the actual content is oriented towards space opera. If you don't like that subgenre, you will need to create your own stuff. But...
The reason some in the OSR are excited about it is because most of it is open content. Because it easy to see how you can adapt its concepts to make your own take on space opera or any other sci-fi subgenre.
For a person not interested in publishing or creating content Star without Number is the more complete D&Dish science fiction RPG. However for someone who is interested in publishing or content creation, White Star is the better choice.
To recap White Star is a good minimalist space opera RPG that has ignited the interest of many in the OSR to create their own science fiction content based on its concept.
Would be nice to see some other "OSR" blog guys actually critique each other's work in this way rather than just slap backs and praise one another in exchange for free copies. Tenkar's Tavern, for instance, keeps hyping this game to the moon. You'd think it was the Second Coming.
Quote from: Matt;831421Would be nice to see some other "OSR" blog guys actually critique each other's work in this way rather than just slap backs and praise one another in exchange for free copies. Tenkar's Tavern, for instance, keeps hyping this game to the moon. You'd think it was the Second Coming.
You not read much of Tenkar Tavern then. He doesn't hold back when he thinks things are shit.
As for myself I don't think it is the second coming, I do think it is good. And more importantly the author wrote and presented in the tone of an open playground. That is a major factor the enthusiasts, like Tenkar, are responding too.
Yes people can write their own games and all that. That just one way of expressing one's creativity. Another is to contribute to a common body of work. And this is a major reason behind the excitement about White Star. It isn't as much about what White Star is but rather what you can do with it.
Quote from: Matt;831421Would be nice to see some other "OSR" blog guys actually critique each other's work in this way rather than just slap backs and praise one another in exchange for free copies. Tenkar's Tavern, for instance, keeps hyping this game to the moon. You'd think it was the Second Coming.
I think part of the problem may be that most people doing OSR blogs assume they are talking to other people who are already into OSR games. Describing White Star as given the White Box treatment to Star Wars style science-fiction in a way that is compatible with S&W White Box tells me pretty much all I need to know about the game executive summary-wise. For people not as familiar with OSR games, that's obviously not true.
White Star may not be the "Second Coming" but it is a great White Box style Star Wars style SF game -- a good framework the GM can use as is or more likely to easily houserule into exactly what his/her campaign needs. Better yet, it's very compatible with S&W White Box so if you want to add SF to your WB-based fantasy campaign, White Star makes it easy. What it isn't is what many non-OSR people would consider a complete game nor does it make any attempt to be mechanically innovative.
Almost all of this is readily apparent from what has been said in OSR blogs like Tenkar's Tavern -- provided you already have a firm grasp of OSR games.
T
Quote from: estar;831431You not read much of Tenkar Tavern then. He doesn't hold back when he thinks things are shit.
As for myself I don't think it is the second coming, I do think it is good. And more importantly the author wrote and presented in the tone of an open playground. That is a major factor the enthusiasts, like Tenkar, are responding too.
Yes people can write their own games and all that. That just one way of expressing one's creativity. Another is to contribute to a common body of work. And this is a major reason behind the excitement about White Star. It isn't as much about what White Star is but rather what you can do with it.
I read Tenkar daily. His buddies get raves. He is good at critiquing Kickstarters, though.
Quote from: Matt;831362From what I have read there is nothing in it that you couldn't do yourself with D&D as its the same rules, just different classes and equipment lists. I don't really see why it's getting all this hype.
Also seems more post-Star Wars sci fantasy than pre-Star Wars sci fi, the latter of which is my preference.
The nice thing about DnD, especially in its minimilist iterations is that it is that for many players there is no learning curve. They already know how everything works. "It is just DnD in space," sounds great to me, as a referee, really. I can do SF without having to teach any rules or harbor any false expectation that anyone else will read anything game related. Ever.
That said, I'd likely do this sort of thing myself. Simplified pull it out your ass spaceship rules sound pretty good to me. Further, wasn't the DnD armor class system based on a similar mechanic from a navel war-game? It is perfectly suited to the task, imo.
However, I completely agree with you in terms of the culture of soft reviews.
Quote from: Sean !;831379if you want pre 'star wars' pulp planet-based sci-fi (John Carter of Mars -style) I suggest Whitebox and Savage Swords of Athanor (free pdf) instead.
I can find Whitebox online, but anyone find a link for a free download of Savage Swords of Athnor? (I've found some blog entries, but somehow am missing any links. Must have failed my perception check. :))
Quote from: finarvyn;831452I can find Whitebox online, but anyone find a link for a free download of Savage Swords of Athnor? (I've found some blog entries, but somehow am missing any links. Must have failed my perception check. :))
Yes, where is this freebie to be found and what is it?
Quote from: finarvyn;831452I can find Whitebox online, but anyone find a link for a free download of Savage Swords of Athnor? (I've found some blog entries, but somehow am missing any links. Must have failed my perception check. :))
https://app.box.com/shared/ifyu9tnm8q
I couldn't tell from reviews if the system has a dedicated shipbuilding section. Does it?
It also occurred to me earlier today that I can likely use Barbarians of the Void as the simple mechanical system while using SWN for star system generation ideas. Again, the main lure for White Star seems to be familiarity and some crossover with OD&D. But I think I like BoL's Careers system better, overall, for a space game. That said, if White Star drops a bit in price, I might still pick it up. I'm curious to see what it's all about.
Quote from: cranebump;831393The reviewer makes some legitimate points, but evidently wants a lot more crunch.
He wants a lot more crunch and he doesn't want a generic system that does not get in the way of the science fantasy setting individual GMs want to create. He seems to want the designer to provide specific rules for things like FTL travel instead of leaving it open for the GM to handle. I, on the other hand, see the lack of such details as a major positive -- I can use White Star to run a setting with SW-like hyperspace travel, or a setting with Traveller like short jumps that take a week of real time, or a setting with Lensman-like inertialess drives, or a setting with Perry Rhodan like near instantaneous very long range jumps -- all without needing any rules revision.
I generally don't want a lot of the "designer's vision" the review author seems to desire in a generic rules set like White Star because that vision often interferes with my vision for the setting I want to create for the game.
You will not see reviews like this one on OSR sites -- not because all OSR people are writing soft-petal reviews but because OSR people simply are unlikely to even see most of the issues this reviewer sees. The GM decides when monster morale breaks instead of having rules for determining then morale breaks? Few OSR people will see any need to even mention this in a review as "The GM Decides" is a common feature of most OSR games, is considered a positive feature by most OSR players and GMs, and therefore isn't something likely to even be mentioned in a review by the average OSR review writer. Etc.
Quote from: cranebump;831561I couldn't tell from reviews if the system has a dedicated shipbuilding section. Does it?
No but it is obvious how to build your own from the included examples.
QuoteSpace Yacht
ARMOR CLASS 4 [15]
HIT POINTS 40
SHIELD STRENGTH 1
Movement 12
TARGETING: +0
ATTACK Light Laser (2d6) [pilot-linked]
MODIFICATIONS Faster-Than-Light Drive
Sleek and elegant, space yachts are used by rich diplomats and nobles to
cruise the stars in style. They are not heavily armed, but they are fast. With
only a meager laser and the lightest shields to defend itself, the space yacht is built with the mantra of style over substance. Because of their association with the idle rich, they are often the targets of space pirates and other criminals.
Similar to creating a classic D&D monster. He does provide a list of dozen or so standard modifications you can apply to the ship. But like the special powers of monsters it easy to add your own.
Quote from: cranebump;831561It also occurred to me earlier today that I can likely use Barbarians of the Void as the simple mechanical system while using SWN for star system generation ideas. Again, the main lure for White Star seems to be familiarity and some crossover with OD&D. But I think I like BoL's Careers system better, overall, for a space game. That said, if White Star drops a bit in price, I might still pick it up. I'm curious to see what it's all about.
Like I said before as a game it is good minimalist RPG but much of it is not that innovative. What make it great is that author successfully makes you look at classic OD&D from a science-fiction angle. The Starship section is the most brilliant part of the book in that regard. And that it built on the OGL so other people can jump in and publish their own ideas.
Quote from: Matt;831421Would be nice to see some other "OSR" blog guys actually critique each other's work in this way rather than just slap backs and praise one another in exchange for free copies. Tenkar's Tavern, for instance, keeps hyping this game to the moon. You'd think it was the Second Coming.
In my reviews I always tell it like it is. Usually, when this means criticizing an OSR work, I get into all kinds of shit for it. There's definitely a strong sense of tribalism where you're never supposed to criticize "the team".
I'd certainly welcome a review copy of this game. It looks cool.
Quote from: RandallS;831579He wants a lot more crunch and he doesn't want a generic system that does not get in the way of the science fantasy setting individual GMs want to create. He seems to want the designer to provide specific rules for things like FTL travel instead of leaving it open for the GM to handle. I, on the other hand, see the lack of such details as a major positive -- I can use White Star to run a setting with SW-like hyperspace travel, or a setting with Traveller like short jumps that take a week of real time, or a setting with Lensman-like inertialess drives, or a setting with Perry Rhodan like near instantaneous very long range jumps -- all without needing any rules revision.
I generally don't want a lot of the "designer's vision" the review author seems to desire in a generic rules set like White Star because that vision often interferes with my vision for the setting I want to create for the game.
You will not see reviews like this one on OSR sites -- not because all OSR people are writing soft-petal reviews but because OSR people simply are unlikely to even see most of the issues this reviewer sees. The GM decides when monster morale breaks instead of having rules for determining then morale breaks? Few OSR people will see any need to even mention this in a review as "The GM Decides" is a common feature of most OSR games, is considered a positive feature by most OSR players and GMs, and therefore isn't something likely to even be mentioned in a review by the average OSR review writer. Etc.
I dunno about that-- at least not your specific example. I'd point to a tendency to actually try and have morale rules as one of the defining traits of old-school vs. new-school D&D and something that sharply informs the difference in feel.
Quote from: RandallS;831579... You will not see reviews like this one on OSR sites -- not because all OSR people are writing soft-petal reviews but because OSR people simply are unlikely to even see most of the issues this reviewer sees. The GM decides when monster morale breaks instead of having rules for determining then morale breaks? Few OSR people will see any need to even mention this in a review as "The GM Decides" is a common feature of most OSR games, is considered a positive feature by most OSR players and GMs, and therefore isn't something likely to even be mentioned in a review by the average OSR review writer. Etc.
I think you're right, and in my opinion, here's how you'll know for sure in two easy phases:
1) Blogger talks about how jazzed they are for White Star.
2) Stream of posts that are house-rules and self made materials for White Star.
The appeal of White Star as a rules set is clearly in what people will make and share with it.
Quote from: LibraryLass;832020I dunno about that-- at least not your specific example. I'd point to a tendency to actually try and have morale rules as one of the defining traits of old-school vs. new-school D&D and something that sharply informs the difference in feel.
So B/X isn't old school?
I don't care really, but the OSR was built on B/X and 1e, both of which have moral rules.
Quote from: LibraryLass;832020I dunno about that-- at least not your specific example. I'd point to a tendency to actually try and have morale rules as one of the defining traits of old-school vs. new-school D&D and something that sharply informs the difference in feel.
0e (aka Original D&D from 1974) did not have morale rules unless you imported them from Chainmail or simply decided when monsters broke (often with a variant of the reaction roll, in my experience). Actually taking morale into account so every combat is not a fight to the death is very old school, however specific rules for a morale roll did not make it into D&D until 1e and B/X.
Swords & Wizardry White Box (which White Star is based on) try to clone the original three little D&D booklets from 1974. S&W White Box covers morale in basically the same way White Star does:
QuoteMorale
Certain monsters, such as mindless or undead creatures, are fearless and will
always fight to the death. The majority, however, will not continue to fight a
hopeless battle and will seek to retreat, surrender, or flee. The Referee will
decide when monsters abandon battle and retreat, based upon the situation and the monster's intelligence. Referees should also use morale to determine the actions and loyalty of hirelings or other companion NPCs.
--S&W White Box (3rd Print Edition), p31
So it is not surprising to someone familiar with S&W White Box (or the original 0e LBBs) that a SF variant that tries to be compatible with it would have rules very similar to these. An OSR person writing a review would probably not even think the morale rules in White Star worth mentioning.
Quote from: Aos;832038So B/X isn't old school?
I don't care really, but the OSR was built on B/X and 1e, both of which have moral rules.
You are leaving out all the 0e OSR clones (like Swords & Wizardry, Microlite74, Delving Deeper, etc.) which are based on the original D&D game from 1974. An older version than B/X and 1e.
Quote from: RandallS;832045You are leaving out all the 0e OSR clones (like Swords & Wizardry, Microlite74, Delving Deeper, etc.) which are based on the original D&D game from 1974. An older version than B/X and 1e.
No I am not, I am merely recognizing that B/X and 1e predate ALL of those clones. Oe love came into the OSR relatively late.
also you ignored my question.
Quote from: Aos;832050No I am not, I am merely recognizing that B/X and 1e predate ALL of those clones. Oe love came into the OSR relatively late.
also you ignored my question.
I thought the question was rhetorical, but as it wasn't. I'll answer it.
B/X is old school as is 0e, 1e, Holmes Basic. Some people also consider and BECMI and 2e old school.
However, you may have missed my point. White Star is based on S&W White Box and is intended to be fully compatible with it. Both are therefore based on 0e (without the supplements). The fact that 0e was cloned after B/X and 1e were cloned doesn't really matter. White Star is a 0e variant not a B/X or 1e variant.
Quote from: RandallS;832059I thought the question was rhetorical, but as it wasn't. I'll answer it.
B/X is old school as is 0e, 1e, Holmes Basic. Some people also consider and BECMI and 2e old school.
However, you may have missed my point. White Star is based on S&W White Box and is intended to be fully compatible with it. Both are therefore based on 0e (without the supplements). The fact that 0e was cloned after B/X and 1e were cloned doesn't really matter. White Star is a 0e variant not a B/X or 1e variant.
Nah, I got you, man. I was just contesting the idea (which did not come from you) that the inclusion of moral rules somehow makes a game not old school.
However, to touch on an earlier point, I did bitch about the lack of such rules when I reveiwed Warriors of the Red Planet. I understand about compatibility with 0e and all, but any game that uses ascending AC and/or a unified save, and any other number of minor modufications, has already blown that. Burning a paragraph for BX style morale- even if just as an optional rule, only seems sensible to me. It adds a lot with very little effort expended, and causes no more of compatibilty problem than many of the extant changes, imo.
Quote from: Aos;832065Burning a paragraph for BX style morale- even if just as an optional rule, only seems sensible to me. It adds a lot with very little effort expended, and causes no more of compatibilty problem than many of the extant changes, imo.
There's a bit more to it than explaining the 2d6 B/X-style morale die roll. You have to add a morale rating to each of the monster descriptions. I did this for Microlite74 Extended (the version of M74 with my standard house rules from the late 70s) and updating the monsters is somewhat more than what I'd call "very little effort" -- and you are adding something to 0e fairly major to 0e. That's why I it wasn't in M74 Basic or M74 Standard.
Quote from: RandallS;832074There's a bit more to it than explaining the 2d6 B/X-style morale die roll. You have to add a morale rating to each of the monster descriptions. I did this for Microlite74 Extended (the version of M74 with my standard house rules from the late 70s) and updating the monsters is somewhat more than what I'd call "very little effort" -- and you are adding something to 0e fairly major to 0e. That's why I it wasn't in M74 Basic or M74 Standard.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I add b/x style moral scores to everything. It takes seconds per monster. That is exactly what I'd call "very little effort," in fact.
Another good reason to include it is that further data can regarding the monster can be inferred from the score assigned. As a mechanic it pulls its weight.
I'm vaguely interested as I'd be totally down with a TSR D&D-based SF game that does Star Wars right out of the box — D6 is fun but rolling and adding tons of dice all the time gets old. Nevertheless, White Box OD&D is a tad lighter than I prefer. SWN and Hulks & Horrors feel closer to my crunch sweet spot but would require some retro-fitting.
A B/X, BECMI/RC, or LL-powered ersatz-Star Wars game would be my dream OSR game right now.
Just curious (and maybe I missed it), but has anyone here purchased White Star? Curious as to their take. Maybe Pundit will get a review copy, because I'd be interested to see what he has to say about it, as well.
Quote from: cranebump;832119Just curious (and maybe I missed it), but has anyone here purchased White Star? Curious as to their take.
I bought a copy. It's about what I expected: OD&D (3 little books only) in space -- science fantasy/Star Wars style. It's easy to add anything I want from White Star to my 0e game (currently a M74 variant) and it would be equally easy to do the reverse adding anything I wanted from a 0e rules set to White Star. It's a great toolkit -- which is exactly what I want from the game.
If you are looking for an SF game with more mechanics meat that Swords & Wizardry White Box, you will likely be disappointed. If you are looking for a game where the author built around a specific vision (e.g. a detailed setting the game is specifically built for), you will likely be disappointed. If you are looking for hard SF as opposed to science fantasy, you will have more work to do.
If you are looking for innovative mechanics, you probably should not be looking at any OSR game. However, while treating starships as basically characters with a combat system very much like normal combat isn't really that original, it is well-handled well-handled in White Star, but like OD&D combat in general, it is very abstract.
Quote from: RandallS;832121I bought a copy. It's about what I expected: OD&D (3 little books only) in space -- science fantasy/Star Wars style. It's easy to add anything I want from White Star to my 0e game (currently a M74 variant) and it would be equally easy to do the reverse adding anything I wanted from a 0e rules set to White Star. It's a great toolkit -- which is exactly what I want from the game.
If you are looking for an SF game with more mechanics meat that Swords & Wizardry White Box, you will likely be disappointed. If you are looking for a game where the author built around a specific vision (e.g. a detailed setting the game is specifically built for), you will likely be disappointed. If you are looking for hard SF as opposed to science fantasy, you will have more work to do.
If you are looking for innovative mechanics, you probably should not be looking at any OSR game. However, while treating starships as basically characters with a combat system very much like normal combat isn't really that original, it is well-handled well-handled in White Star, but like OD&D combat in general, it is very abstract.
I tend to go light on things, so I'd likely enjoy this mode of play. Just out of curiousity, how does it handle space travel? Does it bother with any of that stuff?
Quote from: cranebump;832125I tend to go light on things, so I'd likely enjoy this mode of play. Just out of curiousity, how does it handle space travel? Does it bother with any of that stuff?
Ships have an abstract movement rate -- mainly for comparing to other ships in chases and such. FTL drive exists but is it is up to the GM to define how it works in each campaign. FTL drive can also be replaced by warp gates or the like. A sample sector is provided along with a sample adventure in that sector. Unfortunately, however, no random method of sector generation is provided. That lack is what I see as the game main fault. While such a random generation proceed isn't strictly necessary, it is helpful.
Hey guys, I'm new on this site, and have a copy of white star and the PDF for SWN, the white star book was cool, but I had to modify the characteristics to better fit in with my 5th edition D&D ability score modifiers, I have to admit, if you want to create a new space opera d20 system both white star and stars without number can help you , but if you want to play Star Wars d20, the Saga edition tears into it all perfectly as far as I'm concerned, someone could take all three systems and mesh them together to create a better Star Wars game, but I still think Saga edition would be hard to beat anyway, but my preference for Star Wars is the story dice system currently being played, I still love the old d6 as well, but I'm just a RPG nut.