TheRPGSite

We all know how important Gygax and Arneson were. What about those who are still with us, though?

Of the people involved in the creation and early years of D&D, who is still alive who you think was probably the most important to the game?

Dave Wesely, obviously.

It's such a massive drop off after those two it's a bit of a waste of time to try and rank them.

For me, Jim Ward...because of Gamma World.

Well, how many people even wrote OD&D besides those two? Rob Kuntz, Brian Blume, and Jim Ward. Only one actually had had a career in the industry, really.  Jim Ward wins by default.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1033480Dave Wesely, obviously.

Sounds like the best answer to me as well:).

Rob Kuntz.

https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/Frank-Mentzer-The-True-Master-of-Dungeons-and-Dragons

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1033514https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/Frank-Mentzer-The-True-Master-of-Dungeons-and-Dragons

I am all for giving Frank and Moldvay and Dr. Holmes and Zeb and up through Bruce Heard and the like credit where credit is due, but do any of them count as 'people involved in the creation and early years of D&D?' I mean, once you get into that zone, the circle has already expanded to an unwieldy number of influencers including competitors, collaborators, financers and publishers and all of a sudden we're just retelling the whole schpiel.

Quote from: Fiasco;1033487It's such a massive drop off after those two it's a bit of a waste of time to try and rank them.

This.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033526I am all for giving Frank and Moldvay and Dr. Holmes and Zeb and up through Bruce Heard and the like credit where credit is due, but do any of them count as 'people involved in the creation and early years of D&D?' I mean, once you get into that zone, the circle has already expanded to an unwieldy number of influencers including competitors, collaborators, financers and publishers and all of a sudden we're just retelling the whole schpiel.

So where should we draw the line? OD&D? I thought of Mentzer because the Basic box set was, IMO, the most accessible version of D&D at that time, in a time when the game was taking off in popularity. And I think the two things are directly related.

Tim Kask.  What would D&D be without psionics? :rolleyes:

Gary's sons, Ernie at least?

Who of the 'founding fathers' still lives?

Brian Blume was responsible for the Monk class, no?  Or guilty for it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1033514https://hobbylark.com/tabletop-gaming/Frank-Mentzer-The-True-Master-of-Dungeons-and-Dragons

So that looks cool.  Its atleast a great sales pitch.  How do I get those.  Or at least the last 2 or 3, masters and immortals.   They look like a good read.

Quote from: Headless;1033549So that looks cool.  Its atleast a great sales pitch.  How do I get those.  Or at least the last 2 or 3, masters and immortals.   They look like a good read.

Should be on rpgnow? *goes to check*

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/17167/DD-Master-Set-BECMI-ed-Basic?it=1
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/17166/DD-Immortals-Set-BECMI-ed-Basic?it=1

I had Immortals back in the day but never played it. It's a HUGE departure from the usual D&D, as in the characters can become "Gods" and do godly things.

PDF.  Boo.  I don't enjoy reading on a device.  Physical objects only for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1033479We all know how important Gygax and Arneson were. What about those who are still with us, though?

Of the people involved in the creation and early years of D&D, who is still alive who you think was probably the most important to the game?

None of them, not a single one, especially given the amount of bashing people do, especially this forum but not limited to, when talking about the later editions that most of them have worked on.  The hatred some of these get in my area is amazing.  You'd think Gygax was the only one who thought of the system and carried it all on his back.

Just for me personally Mike Mornard since he explaining how D&D was supposed to work "Conan + Daffy Duck" etc. etc. helped clean out a lot of old 90's Dragon Magazine article advice that had been moldering in the back of my head for too long.

The first question is to define what is meant by "founding fathers" of the game. The three little brown books all say "Gygax & Arneson" and I'll take them for their word on that. Greyhawk says "Gygax & Kuntz." Blackmoor says "Dave Arneson." Eldritch Wizardry says "Gygax & Blume." Gods DG & Heroes says "Kuntz & Ward."

So, I think that the list looks like this: (in alphabetical order)
Dave Arneson, Brian Blume, Gary Gygax, Rob Kuntz, and Jim Ward.

Taking this "founding fathers" list and eliminating both Gary and Dave, we're down to only three names and the second question of "who had the biggest impact." Of the three, seems to me like Rob Kuntz had the biggest impact on "the game" if you assume that "the game" is Dungeons & Dragons. If you interpret "the game" to be "the RPG industry" then it's a closer contest since Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World contributions have to stand alongside his D&D credits as well. After all of these years, both Kuntz and Ward still stand tall in the world of RPGs, are still writing product, and continue to interact with fans.

Now, to add in a second layer of depth, look inside the booklets for the section where the authors thank contributors. Greyhawk adds in thanks to Alan Lucion, Mike Mornard, and Jeff Key. Blackmoor adds Tim Kask and Steve Marsh to our list. EW adds Dennis Sustare. GDG&H adds no new names.

Now our "founding fathers" list might look like this:
Dave Arneson, Brian Blume, Gary Gygax, Tim Kask, Rob Kuntz, Alan Lucion, Steve Marsh, Michael Mornard, Dennis Sustare, and Jim Ward.

Ten names, or eight once Arneson and Gygax are removed. I'm not going to follow up with a further ranking, but some of those names are more familiar than others and some clearly have contributed more than others. The whole picture becomes fuzzy if you want to add in later editions of D&D because some of the later versions found huge popularity. I guess the question comes down to how many names to put on the list, and how close to the genesis you want to define "founding."

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033604None of them, not a single one, especially given the amount of bashing people do, especially this forum but not limited to, when talking about the later editions that most of them have worked on.  The hatred some of these get in my area is amazing.  You'd think Gygax was the only one who thought of the system and carried it all on his back.

I've said my peace on your own bashing in relation to the old-new divide, and don't feel the need to do so again. But, does the existence of adherents to the old rules who have done or said something you dislike mean that you have to dislike or dismiss the contributions of these people (who had nothing directly to do with the bashing you feel you experienced, and possibly weren't even alive at the time)?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033650I've said my peace on your own bashing in relation to the old-new divide, and don't feel the need to do so again. But, does the existence of adherents to the old rules who have done or said something you dislike mean that you have to dislike or dismiss the contributions of these people (who had nothing directly to do with the bashing you feel you experienced, and possibly weren't even alive at the time)?

Its Chris. Of course he has to freak out on any thread about D&D because apparently it something that was supposedly D&D raped him and he is still suffering the trauma.

Quote from: Omega;1033661Its Chris. Of course he has to freak out on any thread about D&D because apparently it something that was supposedly D&D raped him and he is still suffering the trauma.

And my point is (to use an analogy) that Gene Roddenberry isn't at fault because some Star Trek fan beet him up as a teen when he said that Star Wars was the better sci fi.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033650I've said my peace on your own bashing in relation to the old-new divide, and don't feel the need to do so again. But, does the existence of adherents to the old rules who have done or said something you dislike mean that you have to dislike or dismiss the contributions of these people (who had nothing directly to do with the bashing you feel you experienced, and possibly weren't even alive at the time)?

??

I hate D&D?  I do?  AND NO ONE TOLD ME??  WHY AM I THE LAST ONE TO KNOW THESE THINGS???

Seriously, no.  I don't.  I just don't have the same reverence for some people.  Frankly, I think that most of the players at the original table or helped designed other editions should get some mention, but they're barely known.  Instead all we hear about is Gygax, and maybe Arneson.  But Ward, Kuntz, Cook et al?  They're ignored at best.  And if they're mentioned it's because they were part of the reviled 3e edition that the Edition Warriors love to trot out as the start of the downfall of D&D.  Because WOTC IS THE EVIL!

David "Zeb" Cook for example, a name no one has brought up here actually worked on Modovay's Expert Set, but he's pretty much ignored.

So no, the still surviving 'founders' get very little acknowledgement and likely never will.

Quote from: Omega;1033661Its Chris. Of course he has to freak out on any thread about D&D because apparently it something that was supposedly D&D raped him and he is still suffering the trauma.

I think D&D raped us all, and some of us, just liked it.:-)

(y'know, I didn't want to write that...then I did...)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033678??

I hate D&D?  I do?  AND NO ONE TOLD ME??  WHY AM I THE LAST ONE TO KNOW THESE THINGS???

Please re-read what you are quoting. You will notice that I did not say anything like this. You will also note that I was civil and calm. I would appreciate the same in return.

QuoteSeriously, no.  I don't.  I just don't have the same reverence for some people.  Frankly, I think that most of the players at the original table or helped designed other editions should get some mention, but they're barely known.  Instead all we hear about is Gygax, and maybe Arneson.  But Ward, Kuntz, Cook et al?  They're ignored at best.  And if they're mentioned it's because they were part of the reviled 3e edition that the Edition Warriors love to trot out as the start of the downfall of D&D.  Because WOTC IS THE EVIL!

Yes, we know how you feel about where this board stands with regard to the old-new divide. I said I wasn't going to go into my own disappointments with your own edition warriorship. None of that actually even remotely addresses what I asked--should Gygax and Arneson, or any of the other early era founders, get such anger from you because of hostility you feel you have suffered from their fans? If you don't want to answer, you are not obliged, but at least if you are going to address me, address the actual question I put forth.

QuoteDavid "Zeb" Cook for example, a name no one has brought up here actually worked on Modovay's Expert Set, but he's pretty much ignored.

A-HEM! ---

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033526I am all for giving Frank and Moldvay and Dr. Holmes and Zeb and up through Bruce Heard and the like credit where credit is due, but do any of them count as 'people involved in the creation and early years of D&D?' I mean, once you get into that zone, the circle has already expanded to an unwieldy number of influencers including competitors, collaborators, financers and publishers and all of a sudden we're just retelling the whole schpiel.

...were you saying something?

None of the above. Try Mike Hirsch, of Moss & Barnett.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1033780None of the above. Try Mike Hirsch, of Moss & Barnett.

Hee hee hee...

Quote from: Daztur;1033605Just for me personally Mike Mornard since he explaining how D&D was supposed to work "Conan + Daffy Duck" etc. etc. helped clean out a lot of old 90's Dragon Magazine article advice that had been moldering in the back of my head for too long.

Thank you.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1033780None of the above. Try Mike Hirsch, of Moss & Barnett.

What did he do?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1033935What did he do?

Short form: He drastically changed the way that D & D was written and presented by TSR, and forced the company's stable of authors to actually write new material.

Long form: He was Prof. Barker's lawyer, and Phil loaned Dave Arneson the money to retain Mr. Hirsch as Dave's second lawyer. He took over Dave's series of lawsuits against TSR, and changed the focus of the suit from the unanswerable "Who created D & D" to a straightforward plagarism and copyright one. He conclusively demonstrated in court that TSR's publications, specifically 'AD&D', were mostly cut-and-paste revised editions of the original Arneson-Gygax work and not 'new works'. Dave got three million bucks, his percentages, and TSR had to learn how to write games. The actual court documents are out there on the web for your viewing pleasure. Read the pre- and post- TSR materials, very carefully, and it does show. Most gamers never noticed, as they are so fixated on game mechanics that it goes right by them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1033479Of the people involved in the creation and early years of D&D, who is still alive who you think was probably the most important to the game?

Kuntz.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033678??

I hate D&D?  I do?  AND NO ONE TOLD ME??  WHY AM I THE LAST ONE TO KNOW THESE THINGS???

Seriously, no.  I don't.

1: Probably trauma.

2: Seriously, Yes. You do.
You can barely post in a single D&D thread, especially O A or occasionally 2e threads without spewing vitrol. This borders on a pathological hatred of the game.

Quote from: Omega;10340811: Probably trauma.

2: Seriously, Yes. You do.
You can barely post in a single D&D thread, especially O A or occasionally 2e threads without spewing vitrol. This borders on a pathological hatred of the game.

Projecting much?

Oh well, you'll get over that after a few years.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1033983Short form: He drastically changed the way that D & D was written and presented by TSR, and forced the company's stable of authors to actually write new material.

Long form: He was Prof. Barker's lawyer, and Phil loaned Dave Arneson the money to retain Mr. Hirsch as Dave's second lawyer. He took over Dave's series of lawsuits against TSR, and changed the focus of the suit from the unanswerable "Who created D & D" to a straightforward plagarism and copyright one. He conclusively demonstrated in court that TSR's publications, specifically 'AD&D', were mostly cut-and-paste revised editions of the original Arneson-Gygax work and not 'new works'. Dave got three million bucks, his percentages, and TSR had to learn how to write games. The actual court documents are out there on the web for your viewing pleasure. Read the pre- and post- TSR materials, very carefully, and it does show. Most gamers never noticed, as they are so fixated on game mechanics that it goes right by them.

You mean he prevented TSR from going the way of Palladium, Uncle:D?
From your description, I think we all should be grateful to the man! Though probably almost noone knew about his deed, until now;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1034246You mean he prevented TSR from going the way of Palladium, Uncle:D?
From your description, I think we all should be grateful to the man! Though probably almost noone knew about his deed, until now;).

Could be; I don;t know enough about Palladium, save that I would not do business with them either back then or now.

Nobody does, 'cause nobody reads the fine print.

Quote from: AsenRG;1034246You mean he prevented TSR from going the way of Palladium, Uncle:D?
From your description, I think we all should be grateful to the man! Though probably almost noone knew about his deed, until now;).

This is the first I've ever heard specifics like "3 million bucks". Wasn't the "secret settlement" kept pretty secret? Until now?

Quote from: The_Shadow;1034334This is the first I've ever heard specifics like "3 million bucks". Wasn't the "secret settlement" kept pretty secret? Until now?

This has been known pretty widely in the industry since 1980, as Dave was not shy about telling people that he'd won his case; it's the money that founded AGI and GAMA. Dave and Gary were directed by the court not to discuss the details of the first settlement, as part of that first settlement, but later lawsuits negated that. (All of the court documents are available in the public files, and at least two places have them up on line.) Which was, and still is, a pretty stock and standard part of settlements in this kind of case; the loser prefers not to have all their transgressions dragged out in public. Skirting the letter of the judge's stipulations became a fine art in certain circles, which is where a lot of the personal remarks about Dave Arneson by TSR people got started.

(Which is, if I may be allowed a personal aside / comment, why I don't feel the particular need to go to Gary Con and have to listen to some of the old TSR people carry on about how Dave Arneson ruined their lives. It gets old, and I don't think I want to pay for the opportunity of having my game disrupted by somebody who takes exception to my having worked for Dave and Phil. I can use that money for a lot of other things, like artwork for my book.)

Well shit!  I have NEVER heard that, and anybody stupid enough to say that in my hearing would find themselves the proud possessor of a newly-torn asshole.

I know Tim Kask didn't like Dave but that's personal.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1034346(Which is, if I may be allowed a personal aside / comment, why I don't feel the particular need to go to Gary Con and have to listen to some of the old TSR people carry on about how Dave Arneson ruined their lives. It gets old, and I don't think I want to pay for the opportunity of having my game disrupted by somebody who takes exception to my having worked for Dave and Phil. I can use that money for a lot of other things, like artwork for my book.)

Hmmm... ...Interesting. I haven't heard that from anyone at GaryCon, including Tim Kask. I think over the last ten-twelve years, things have changed, and the old guard from TSR, that attend GaryCon are mostly focused on new ways to earning income from games, and they do enjoy having the annual TSR reunion there. Mostly what I get from that is all about the "glory days" of TSR, an era that I thought pretty much ended in 1978-79 before most of them were even employed by TSR.

Last year EPT was totally recognized as legit by the old guard, and in fact, Victor Raymond ran a most excellent EPT game that was part of the Legends of Wargaming!

Yeah, in my book "old TSR" ends about 77 as well.

Part of what's happening too is that at 2200 attendees, there are subgroups within GaryCon now.  Legends of Wargaming is rapidly becoming its own thing, which I am perfectly happy with.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1034379Hmmm... ...Interesting. I haven't heard that from anyone at GaryCon, including Tim Kask. I think over the last ten-twelve years, things have changed, and the old guard from TSR, that attend GaryCon are mostly focused on new ways to earning income from games, and they do enjoy having the annual TSR reunion there. Mostly what I get from that is all about the "glory days" of TSR, an era that I thought pretty much ended in 1978-79 before most of them were even employed by TSR.

Last year EPT was totally recognized as legit by the old guard, and in fact, Victor Raymond ran a most excellent EPT game that was part of the Legends of Wargaming!

Agreed - see the next post, actually. It's generally not the 'first-generation' people, it's the later fanboi types. And, in all due fairness, I get more crap from the stalwart Arneson fans who are out to pick fights at the convention. I want no part of that, and they tend to want to use me and my games  as their 'beachhead' at the convention.

Parasites, I don't need, thank you.

And it's wonderful that Dr. Raymond gets the chance to be a VIP; it helps him a lot.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034389Yeah, in my book "old TSR" ends about 77 as well.

Part of what's happening too is that at 2200 attendees, there are subgroups within GaryCon now.  Legends of Wargaming is rapidly becoming its own thing, which I am perfectly happy with.

Very much so. As I mentioned, it's the recent / 'johnny-come-lately' folks who are rapidly becoming the biggest-pain-in-my-butt in gaming. I see no reason why I should pay for their annoyance, or haul all my stuff out to any convention so they have a big event to sit around at my game table and pontificate from. As I've mentioned elsewhere, these are also the people who routinely fail to deliver load-in / load-out help, hotel rooms, gas money, and food. Now that I'm rid of The Boyfriend's bottomless gullet, and making a very nice salary, I might take the show back out on the road - but for my own personal pleasure, and in the full knowledge that I'm going to be doing it all by myself.

"Stuff 'em all!" is my mantra, these days. Nobody in the gaming hobby or industry has anything I want, so they're going to really have to work at it to get my interest or support. I've been severing a lot of my connections over the past couple of years, and it's gotten nice and quiet hereabouts as a result. Doing the Internet gaming and podcasts will be a lot less work, reach a much wider audience, and be a lot more fun for me to do. I have the horsepower now to do literally anything I want to, and I'm going to.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034376Well shit!  I have NEVER heard that, and anybody stupid enough to say that in my hearing would find themselves the proud possessor of a newly-torn asshole.

I know Tim Kask didn't like Dave but that's personal.

Yep. It was pretty funny watching people talk to me, then find out who I was, and then try to figure out if they'd said anything offensive. I was more amused then anything else.

Tim's entitled to his opinions. I may not agree with them, but I'd defend his right to them any time.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1034428"Stuff 'em all!" is my mantra, these days..

As Terry Pratchett's Sir Samuel Vimes said, "Arseholes to the lot of 'em, says I."

And now, a little song and dance number:

[video=youtube;3DlZdZYLCfU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlZdZYLCfU[/youtube]

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1033983Short form: He drastically changed the way that D & D was written and presented by TSR, and forced the company's stable of authors to actually write new material.

Long form: He was Prof. Barker's lawyer, and Phil loaned Dave Arneson the money to retain Mr. Hirsch as Dave's second lawyer. He took over Dave's series of lawsuits against TSR, and changed the focus of the suit from the unanswerable "Who created D & D" to a straightforward plagarism and copyright one. He conclusively demonstrated in court that TSR's publications, specifically 'AD&D', were mostly cut-and-paste revised editions of the original Arneson-Gygax work and not 'new works'. Dave got three million bucks, his percentages, and TSR had to learn how to write games. The actual court documents are out there on the web for your viewing pleasure. Read the pre- and post- TSR materials, very carefully, and it does show. Most gamers never noticed, as they are so fixated on game mechanics that it goes right by them.

Absolutely fascinating!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1034428"Stuff 'em all!" is my mantra, these days. Nobody in the gaming hobby or industry has anything I want, so they're going to really have to work at it to get my interest or support. I've been severing a lot of my connections over the past couple of years, and it's gotten nice and quiet hereabouts as a result. Doing the Internet gaming and podcasts will be a lot less work, reach a much wider audience, and be a lot more fun for me to do. I have the horsepower now to do literally anything I want to, and I'm going to.

That's good to hear!

Maybe we'll have you on my upcoming Youtube show sometime.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035304That's good to hear!

Maybe we'll have you on my upcoming Youtube show sometime.

If you like; you have my e-mail address.

Basically, I've been made to feel very unwelcome in this hobby that I've had so many years in by a number of individuals and groups. While I will continue to game, and tell people about my adventures, I do not fell a compelling need to support the people who kick me. Their loss.

Paul Jaquays.

He was the first to demonstrate that a dungeon could make sense.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1035577Paul Jaquays.

He was the first to demonstrate that a dungeon could make sense.

.... that would be Jennell Jaquays. ...and yes she did.

Quote from: Scrivener of Doom;1035577Paul Jaquays.

He was the first to demonstrate that a dungeon could make sense.

To which most of us responded with "so what."  The vast majority of D&D players don't give a crap.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1035715To which most of us responded with "so what."  The vast majority of D&D players don't give a crap.

I can confirm the same from my experience:).
And the rest of them migrate towards other systems because of said vast majority. Also confirmed by personal experience, BTW;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1035564If you like; you have my e-mail address.

Right. It may be a month or two, anyways. We're still finalizing the planning stages.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1035708.... that would be Jennell Jaquays. ...and yes she did.

No, his name was Paul Jaquays when he wrote it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1035715To which most of us responded with "so what."  The vast majority of D&D players don't give a crap.

The vast majority so give a crap about adventures that make some sort of sense.

Maybe it's not like that among the truly old school crowd but it certainly is for almost everyone else judging by what products are produced and subsequently sell.