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One of the fellows in my gaming group has been talking up a Forgotten Realms campaign, but going back to an earlier edition. No one in our group is a Drizzt fanboy or really got into the novels, so we don't have to worry about that, but out of curiosity, I'd love to hear opinions on which version of the Realms you prefer, and why. Most of my Realms gaming personally dates from late 2e/early 3e, with a bit exposure to 1e, but I'd like to hear what other experiences with the setting folks have had.

I will say I liked the earlier feel of the Realms, though I never was a hardcore fan, leaning more towards Greyhawk myself.

I know WotC used to offer some 2e Realms pdfs for free, though I believe they no longer feature those.

(FWIW, I think he'd be using either Castles & Crusades, Basic Fantasy, or BareBones Fantasy with it).

1e Grey Box. Period. No fucking Times of Trouble or metaplot bullshit at all. I take it from there. Thanks.

Quote from: benoist;6217811e grey box. Period. No fucking times of trouble or metaplot bullshit at all. I take it from there. Thanks.

This!  100%. :)

1E grey box, with perhaps the first two Waterdeep supplements.

Quote from: Benoist;6217811e Grey Box. Period. No fucking Times of Trouble or metaplot bullshit at all. I take it from there. Thanks.

Agreed.  I really didn't care for the Time of Troubles at all.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621780One of the fellows in my gaming group has been talking up a Forgotten Realms campaign, but going back to an earlier edition...FWIW, I think he'd be using either Castles & Crusades, Basic Fantasy, or BareBones Fantasy with it.

Given the above, I'd lobby for 1e grey box FR using Basic Fantasy RPG.

Dunno if this would happen, but it would be great if WotC re-releases an unabridged reprint of the 1E FR grey box.  (Even if it was reprinted as a large hardcover book, similar to the upcoming A and S series modules WotC reprint books).

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SniTwfm5BwE/SwGd0PlyWMI/AAAAAAAABz8/_bVkjYcR3XU/s1600/Forgotten+Realms+v1+campaign+set.jpg)

1e grey box, then the 3e hardcover.

Grey Box or Go Home

Interesting responses so far! Was the 2e boxed set really that bad? Is time clouding my memory? :)

Serious answer:1E box plus waterdeep book for the win.


Not serious answer: Whichever version has no Elminster in it.

Quote from: Bill;621812Serious answer:1E box plus waterdeep book for the win.


Not serious answer: Whichever version has no Elminster in it.

Is there a version that features less of Greenwood's alter-ego? :)

I'd go with the gray box and the first few supplements.

If you are playing in Waterdeep itself, then get the Waterdeep sets from 1e, 2e, and 3e and mix and match as desired. They each cover different things.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621804Interesting responses so far! Was the 2e boxed set really that bad? Is time clouding my memory? :)

2e changed a LOT of the Realms, very quickly, which is why I didn't like it. Kind of like what happened to Dark Sun. If you started with the 2e set, you'd probably love it.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621804Interesting responses so far! Was the 2e boxed set really that bad? Is time clouding my memory? :)

The 2e boxed set corresponded to the change of editions of AD&D from 1e AD&D to 2e AD&D.  They chose to model the changes in the game system in the game setting as well; hence, the Time of Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_(Forgotten_Realms)).  This turned the game setting upside with many changes which included killing off certain gods and the gods literally walking the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: Drohem;621822The 2e boxed set corresponded to the change of editions of AD&D from 1e AD&D to 2e AD&D.  They chose to model the changes in the game system in the game setting as well; hence, the Time of Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_(Forgotten_Realms)).  This turned the game setting upside with many changes which included killing off certain gods and the gods literally walking the Forgotten Realms.

Oh, that's right; I forgot that was a BIG deal back in the day. I knew about the massive 4e changes to the setting, but forgot just how drastic that was.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621815Is there a version that features less of Greenwood's alter-ego? :)

Elminster has one redeaming feature.

He could kill Drizzt.

I love the grey box, but I really appreciate how the third 3E version is collected and laid out. That's a great book.

If there was a 1E version in a hardbound like the 3E book, I'd be all over that.

The Grey Box has that sense of mystery that future boxed sets and supplements just don't have.

I remember not getting people's complaints of FR being high magic and cheesy, when my experience with the Grey Box was of this kick-ass, sword & sorcery world like the Conan books and comics I was reading at the time.

The cover art alone says it all:

1e - An exotic horseman in a forlorn plain

2e - Magic!  Iconic characters!  EXPLOSIONS! (I made the last one up)

The 1e grey box is a setting for your D&D game.
The later stuff is more like a setting for novels, complete with characters and plots.

I'm sorry, but the Forgotten Realms just has got too many GMPC Mary Sue's in any version of it to make me interested in running for a group.

Quote from: jeff37923;621881I'm sorry, but the Forgotten Realms just has got too many GMPC Mary Sue's in any version of it to make me interested in running for a group.

I am no forgotten realms fan, but in all fairness, just execute the gmpc's and call it a day :)

OK, what one of your crazy buggers voted for the 4e version, and why? :)

1e, no contest. Easier to ignore the annoying NPCs and the novel-peddling metaplot, and focus on the vast open spaces and the isolated settlements between them, flickering lights of dawning civilization amidst the dark, monster-haunted wilds.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621780(FWIW, I think he'd be using either Castles & Crusades, Basic Fantasy, or BareBones Fantasy with it).

Of the above I'd use Castles & Crusades, properly houseruled (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=503852#post503852), but I'd beg the DM to consider proper AD&D 1e, or one of the "1e lite" clones such as Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition Companion, or Swords & Wizardry Complete Edition. Not familiar with Barebones Fantasy.

Quote from: Zachary The First;621804Interesting responses so far! Was the 2e boxed set really that bad? Is time clouding my memory? :)

2e was the "Time of Troubles" when TSR bent over to MADD and removed assassins, demons and devils from the game.  It was only later, after everyone was pissed, including Roger Moore, that Jim Ward tried to backpedal and claim that the renaming to Baatezu and Tanarri was planned all along.

2e Realms got remade in that image.

It destroyed the Realms and began the Retcon Train that the Realms has rode until today.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;621870The Grey Box has that sense of mystery that future boxed sets and supplements just don't have.

This.
It's a bit sad that the maps were not reflecting this. I found them extremely dull and pedestrian. All of the FR maps, of all versions.

OTOH, a Realms map in Darlene's style...

I guess the only other official FR product I would use would be the intro module Under Illefarn. And everything else I would extrapolate/houserule from the box.

My experience with the Forgotten Realms is a bit different than most of the other players. I never had masked gunmen breaking into my house and forcing me to implement the Time of Troubles or any metaplot bullshit - as, I see, sadly happened to many others. I wrote my own Time of Troubles - which had nothing in common with the Avatar debacle - and I use the novels/timelines mostly for ideas.

To put things in context, my campaign is currently set in Waterdeep in 1356 D.R. The timeline says that at this point the war against Dragonspear Castle is at its peak. This leads to a lessened presence of the City Guard, severe shortages of goods coming from the south (due to the interruption of the Luskan - Amn trade route), increased piratery and economic depression. On this tapestry I weave my plots in the city.

I have all the editions of the FR. The very best one is the third (where, BTW, ironically one can ignore most of the late '80s/90s metaplot since it already happened :D). Playing in an earlier moment in time, however, I of course find useful to have all the references I need readily available.

Generally speaking, it is exceedingly easy either to ignore the metaplot or to make it work as an enrichment for your campaign (flavour, source of ideas, context for events...) More so, the metaplot is actually a surprisingly tiny part of the FR's DNA. Places, cultures and countries do not really change so much from edition to edition. If in your game, let's say, Zenthil Keep is aced by the PCs ten years after or before the official timeline, just make a note about that and place the supplement about its ruins in the new appropriate year. Try once, and you will see how easy it actually is.

My suggestion: use 3E for completeness and a rich background depth, but, if you can, start your timeline with 1E and get the rest in PDFs (now that they are again available) as historical reference. I will however repeat my caveat: I never suffered from PTSD due to enforced metaplot, so it was not difficult for me to do that. Other's mileage can vary.

Grey box is good.

But I'm most familiar with and most comfortable with very early 2e post-time of troubles stuff so were I to run FR it would be in that era.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;621910I guess the only other official FR product I would use would be the intro module Under Illefarn. And everything else I would extrapolate/houserule from the box.

This, and then also FR1 Waterdeep and The North and FR5 The Savage Frontier, for a great sandbox campaign.  

That said, nearly the entire FR series (even some of the 2e-era ones) has utility.  The exceptions are FR7 Hall of Heroes (unless you really need stats for the novel characters), FR12 Horde Campaign, and FR15 Gold & Glory (blatant cash grabs packed full of ugly color plates and marginally useful fluff).  FR8 Cities of Mystery is a weird duck - it presents itself as a product based around cardboard scenery (something I actually like, but YMMV), however there are some nice city creation guidelines in there.  FR4 Magister is pretty much a compilation of magic items and spells, mostly from Greenwood's "Pages From The Mages" series in Dragon, and it's great if you want some variation from the standard DMG/UA items.  The rest are region supplements, and they all provide great structure for local campaigns (generally, the earlier ones are better, but they all have use depending on how much work you're willing to put in).

I'll add that the Volo's Guide series are mightily useful as sources of adventure hooks and local color.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;621910I guess the only other official FR product I would use would be the intro module Under Illefarn. And everything else I would extrapolate/houserule from the box.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;621921This, and then also FR1 Waterdeep and The North and FR5 The Savage Frontier, for a great sandbox campaign.

Yes, this is the winning combination for great FR gaming! :)

Quote from: Reckall;621912To put things in context, my campaign is currently set in Waterdeep in 1356 D.R. The timeline says that at this point the war against Dragonspear Castle is at its peak. This leads to a lessened presence of the City Guard, severe shortages of goods coming from the south (due to the interruption of the Luskan - Amn trade route), increased piratery and economic depression. On this tapestry I weave my plots in the city.

Worth quoting.  The "current clack" rumors section in the grey box is a brilliant source of hooks throughout 1356-1357.  N5 Under Illefarn is stated to occur in the aftermath of the first Dragonspear War, and the town's weakened state (requiring heroic action from the PC militiamen) stems from this.  For an interesting bookend, consider FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear.  

**mild spoilers, nothing shocking**

In FRQ2, the PCs are called upon to provide leadership in the second Dragonspear War.  The assumed levels are 10-ish (right around name level, where the PCs will likely have followers of their own), and the module is framed as a series of Battlesystem scenarios, with a high-level dungeon crawl to decide the outcome of the final battle.  This module needs work (the dungeon section, especially, is weak, and does Dragonspear Castle no justice when compared to the tentpole dungeon it could be).  And, of course, there are the requisite 2e-era railroad prods (lots of BUT THOU MUST! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButThouMust)), easily ignored by a competent DM.  (Besides, what PCs with newly-gained troupes of followers could resist the opportunity to give them a road test?)  The overall structure is solid, however - and for PCs that started in Daggerford with N5, it's the perfect transition to the "armies and domains" phase of their career.

I would also recommend Forgotten Realms Adventures.  It was sorta promoted as a "convert your campaign to 2e" thing, but it's got a lot to use in a 1e campaign.  There are several city maps/writeups that are not included in any other product.  The treasure/objects d'art table at the back is solid gold, good for any campaign (FR or no).  There are Realms-specific spells in there if you're partial to that sort of thing (I run 1e, but I use a greatly expanded spell list for the Realms).  And then there's the specialty priests.  (An innovation that started with Gary's Greyhawk cleric writeups, lest we forget.  ;)  )  I use'em for 1e, works a treat.

1e wins it for me, though 3e would take a solid second place.

RPGPundit

Voted 1e. Boxed set was my first boxed set. It was a thing of beauty. The parchment pages. Not over the top. Just magical at a magical time in my life.

Quote from: 1989;622379Voted 1e. Boxed set was my first boxed set. It was a thing of beauty. The parchment pages. Not over the top. Just magical at a magical time in my life.

This is a very good point: it was a stunningly pretty boxed set for its time; when you compare it, for example, to the earlier Greyhawk boxed set.

RPGPundit

Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own. We suffered through lots of FR 1e and 2e, but I fortunately avoided 3e. The Spellplague of 4e made the setting a bit more interesting, but nothing compared to Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Planescape.

The Neverwinter book for 4e is pretty good city campaign though. If my 4e players really wanted a FR campaign, Neverwinter is the only one I would run.

First Ed., no questions.  However, I would use any of the Second and Third ed suppliments (mostly second) where I had them for maps and other basic information.  Any of the 2nd/3rd ed rules and other fluff and crud can be easily overlooked.

Quote from: jeff37923;621881I'm sorry, but the Forgotten Realms just has got too many GMPC Mary Sue's in any version of it to make me interested in running for a group.

Out of curiosity, you feel forced to use them... Why?

In my campaign some, like The Seven Sisters, are part of the background, while others do not exist. When my character were Harpers I used Elminster as a FR version of Hitler in those Youtube Hitler parodies, and that was it.

Barring some specific supplements (mostly 2E) like Hall of Heroes, which were designded to bring the novel's heroes in the game for those who wanted to use them, I frankly fail to see WHERE in the FR line "Mary Sues" are forced down your throat.

I'll say I have owned every version of the Realms in print... and never run a single game there.  Of all the incarnations of the Realms, there are two that I find awesome enough to merit my attention these days -

1e definitely, for all the reasons already stated.  The parchment pages and overall presentation, the parts of the world left undescribed, the evocative cover art says it all.  I liked it the way it was originally presented before the Time of Troubles like so many others have noted.

My second choice would be the Neverwinter campaign book for 4e.  The idea of forays into a ruined and undead-infested city that was once one of the great metropoli of the fantasy world to which it belongs is really inspiring to my GM brain, and I came very close to using it for the one and only 4e home campaign I ever ran.  I much prefer D&D Basic and AD&D - although I will say my players and I are very much enjoying the tactical nature of 4e, it's just not the D&D I grew up with...

  Dammit.  Now I'm going to have to pull my FR books off my shelf and re-read them.

Quote from: Spinachcat;622768Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own.

Perhaps there is a grain of truth to this statement.

I mainly used Forgotten Realms (or any other "boxed" settings), for the reason that I don't have the time and patience anymore to design my own setting completely from scratch.

When I was younger, I had all the time in the world and enthusiasm to design most of my own stuff from scratch.  Not so much as I got older.

All of them are fine for my purposes - as long as the kindling is good and dry, any ol' piece of wadded up paper will do to get a fire going.

I'm with Reckall on this. I thought 3e Forgotten Realms was the best version of all. This and Eberron are the only TSR/WOTC D&D campaign settings that I own.

I didn't pickup the 3e Campaign Guide because I needed a campaign setting, I picked it up because I was playing in a 3e Forgotten Realms campaign with a truly remarkable GM who spun everything up so good, you couldn't even tell there were metaplots to be founds. It was a memorable campaign that rocked, that ran in 2001 and 2002.

The books themselves are top quality, as is the huge tear-out map. They have just enough detail, and backstory, to make running a mini-campaign easy. Mostly we ignored all the Superpowered NPCs when we played, so that was never a factor in our games as well. It's loose enough to include homebrew stuff, and tight enough so that anyone could tell what campaign setting was being played, just by walking by the table.

It was Ed's favorite version too, at least as far as I could tell. He really enjoyed doing that, and let us know in the early days of 3e, by running FR games every year he was invited to PentaCon (our local Northern Indiana Con). I never played in any of the those games, but sat in and watched the play on a few. That is is also where I met him, and got the chance to thank him for putting together such an interesting campaign, as well as for his earlier works (Notably the early Dragon D&D articles, and of course all the great Traveller stuff he did).

My favorite for Greyhawk was the original boxed setting, but the Forgotten Realms Grey Box was just.... meh.

2e. More breadth of material, which I can ignore if I like (and I do; my Realms is less magic-heavy and has far fewer high level npc's) but it's nice to know all that extra material is there when I don't feel like making it all up myself.

1e would be my second pick. My friend turned me against 3rd edition Realms with his endless Drow obsession and the 4e Realms can sit and spin.

Quote from: GameDaddy;622798

The books themselves are top quality, as is the huge tear-out map. They have just enough detail, and backstory, to make running a mini-campaign easy. Mostly we ignored all the Superpowered NPCs when we played, so that was never a factor in our games as well. It's loose enough to include homebrew stuff, and tight enough so that anyone could tell what campaign setting was being played, just by walking by the table.

The bolded part reminded me of why I really didn't like 3rd edition very much - everything was books with the tear out maps (though I will agree that the books were of very good quality and the maps looked nice.  But 1st and 2nd edition both had those great boxed sets loaded with maps in just about every product (multiple maps in a number of cases).

Quote from: GameDaddy;622798The Forgotten Realms Grey Box was just.... meh.

The "surpassingly mythical" 1E Grey Box had a whole book out of two full of almost-futile fluff: NPCs, magic items, spellbooks, two introductory adventures that could have been set anywere, and some rules on movement and climates - nothing a good GM couldn't put together by himself. And I appreciate the opportunity to "put together my own campaign using my creativity!!!111" when I'm paid to do it. Why I should wank unto adult age because TSR gave me the opportunity to pay themfor what I was already doing was beyond me. GAZ 1 - Karameikos wiped the floor with the whole 1E Grey Box. Add Glantry (still an unsurpassed feat) and it is match, set, game.

FR 1E really found their stride with "Waterdeep and the North" and "The Savage Ferontier". Mystara hit it out of the ballpark right off the bat.

Thankfully for all my gaming I never got into FR. Never fell into the rpg novel crowd and never endured railroad modules and never stuck in its fan wank bickering.

In a way it's been a blessing. I got the 1e Grey Box books before I got the complete Grey Box set, so it was a nice preview before the maps. It was fun, a lot of delightful and likely disposable filler (as Reckall notes) in one book, and generally evocative of 'being in another world' mood.

Someone gave a link to WotC's old free PDF links in the wayback machine and I checked out a few more FR products. Currently I'm on 2e Land of Intrigue, write-up for Tethyr & Amn. So far I think it's even better than the 1e box in value. Granted the Current History chapter of both are festooned in what sounds like badly novelized fan wank converted for play use, but it's wholly ignorable and takes up so little of the plentiful pages within. If the other 2e country & region books are this solid, I think I'll have to get them

Right now I'm brainstorming on a Birthright realm management system conversion for Tethyr, Calimport, & Amn. Plenty of duchies, counties, religious holdings, NPCs and intrigues. Solid stuff to work with here.

My next read will be the Horde sourcebook, and then maybe the Horde campaign.

If I were ever to run an FR campaign - and there's a certain itch I have that I'll admit it would scratch - it would be using the 1e materials. Specifically: the gray box and FR1 Waterdeep and the North, FR3 Empires of the Sands, FR5 The Savage Frontier, and FR6 The Red Wizards of Thay. They're a bit uneven, and I definitely wouldn't go near FR2 The Moonshaes in play, but those early supplements are full of good game-worthy details, and did a good job of making the Realms a setting you could roleplay in.

The 2e materials, and I particularly remember the City of Splendors box being egregious in this, are so full of high-level personalities and canon details that you get the "Why bother?" syndrome - there are so many characters who simply go beyond levels stated in the rules, what can your PCs do to even be mildly relevant? At the same time it got rid of some interesting evil deities and collapsed their portfolios into a single lame god. Faiths & Avatars had fascinating details but damn if it didn't overpower the priest characters. I don't like 3e or 4e and wouldn't be up to going through their Realms.

Also: I wouldn't play with anyone who knew too much about the setting. Canon was a huge problem in 2e settings, because know-it-all players would study everything and try to catch the DM doing it "wrong." Fuck that noise.

Quote from: Spinachcat;622768Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own.

Nonsense.  The 1e set was awesome on its own and was full of space that all but demanded that the GM make it his.  The other sets could all be modified to match the same, though some with more work than others.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Spinachcat;622768Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own.

You're gonna have to elaborate on how that makes it any different from any other non-gimmick campaign world, like, say, Greyhawk, or the Wilderlands.  

QuoteWe suffered through lots of FR 1e and 2e, but I fortunately avoided 3e.

That sounds like a DM issue, more than something related to a campaign setting.  What did he do that you didn't like?

 

QuoteThe Spellplague of 4e made the setting a bit more interesting

CITATION NEEDED

Quote from: Cadriel;623058The 2e materials, and I particularly remember the City of Splendors box being egregious in this, are so full of high-level personalities and canon details that you get the "Why bother?" syndrome - there are so many characters who simply go beyond levels stated in the rules, what can your PCs do to even be mildly relevant?

Interesting bit of trivia:  In comparing 1e and 2e products for possible inclusion in our current Realms campaign (most notably FR1 Waterdeep and the North vs. the City of Splendors box, and FR5 The Savage Frontier vs. the later "The North" boxed set) I noticed two things:

1) The 2e versions often added very little in the form of content, but simply padded out the wordcount on the earlier material, threw in a few novel references and metaplot updates, and made up the rest on huge margins and aggressively so-so art.

2)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;6233672)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Well, 2E was set some years down the timeline: I think it is fair to assume that NPCs had gained some levels in the intercourring years.

There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;623412There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

Perhaps the last ever time it was suggested that a FR NPC might be less powerful than expected. ;)

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;623412There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;623367Interesting bit of trivia:  In comparing 1e and 2e products for possible inclusion in our current Realms campaign (most notably FR1 Waterdeep and the North vs. the City of Splendors box, and FR5 The Savage Frontier vs. the later "The North" boxed set) I noticed two things:

1) The 2e versions often added very little in the form of content, but simply padded out the wordcount on the earlier material, threw in a few novel references and metaplot updates, and made up the rest on huge margins and aggressively so-so art.

2)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Well, also, the focus shifted from the northwestern section of Faerûn to the Dalelands with the inclusion of the village Shadowdale and gazetteer of the Dalelands.

I admittedly know little about FR products (as mentioned previously in topic), but I'm not finding the high NPC levels that much of an issue. Named level starts at lvl 9, and that's like Knight, or as I like to think of it "starter-warlord." So being in your McManor with your first entourage just means you Tiered-UP! and are now just entering the big leagues.

Why would that be a problem? It's similar to power dynamics anywhere. Only once being 'of named value' will warrant one's name to travel, otherwise who cares? A name will only be as known as its impact -- higher the power, greater the impact (spread). And given that there's already several NPCs who are high political power, but no levels, there's already a mix.

I don't see how this is an issue to PCs. In fact, it's sort of a blessing of anonymity. You don't really matter in high level politics until 9th level, or you somehow commit enough atrocities to attract negative attention. FR is BIG, and, for example, a roster of 20 or so high NPC people in all of Tethyr (of something like 3 million people) is pretty reasonable.

So you can't be the Queen or Duke by low level, and you'd have to work your way up the higher tier ranks (a.k.a. far higher than 9th lvl) to even hope to contest... so what? It's like hearing people play RPGs the first time and ask, "If I shoot the sheriff, I can take his place, right?" Um, no. That's not how large political structures work. "Deprotagonized!"

I've seen the 25th lvl Liches and 19th lvl Long-Lived Mage Queens. But again I ask, why does that seem odd? We're talking about a huge regional or temporal influence. What are players expecting? A tight spread between 9th and 12th lvl? It's a complaint that as a FR novice and long-time Birthright fan I find completely baffling.

Quote from: Drohem;623435I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

There's always multiclassing.
"Why yes he is a 5th level fighter like the book says, its just that most people don't know he's also a 9th level assassin."

Quote from: Drohem;623435I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

I loved that chart, too. It explicitly reminds the GM that all these stats are just rumors. Which brings one back to the beginning where all of this can be tailored by the GM to their own choosing. Surprising how a small reminder like that can be so useful, in more than one way.

Quote from: Opaopajr;623632I admittedly know little about FR products (as mentioned previously in topic), but I'm not finding the high NPC levels that much of an issue. Named level starts at lvl 9, and that's like Knight, or as I like to think of it "starter-warlord." So being in your McManor with your first entourage just means you Tiered-UP! and are now just entering the big leagues.

Why would that be a problem? It's similar to power dynamics anywhere. Only once being 'of named value' will warrant one's name to travel, otherwise who cares? A name will only be as known as its impact -- higher the power, greater the impact (spread). And given that there's already several NPCs who are high political power, but no levels, there's already a mix.

I don't see how this is an issue to PCs. In fact, it's sort of a blessing of anonymity. You don't really matter in high level politics until 9th level, or you somehow commit enough atrocities to attract negative attention. FR is BIG, and, for example, a roster of 20 or so high NPC people in all of Tethyr (of something like 3 million people) is pretty reasonable.

So you can't be the Queen or Duke by low level, and you'd have to work your way up the higher tier ranks (a.k.a. far higher than 9th lvl) to even hope to contest... so what? It's like hearing people play RPGs the first time and ask, "If I shoot the sheriff, I can take his place, right?" Um, no. That's not how large political structures work. "Deprotagonized!"

I've seen the 25th lvl Liches and 19th lvl Long-Lived Mage Queens. But again I ask, why does that seem odd? We're talking about a huge regional or temporal influence. What are players expecting? A tight spread between 9th and 12th lvl? It's a complaint that as a FR novice and long-time Birthright fan I find completely baffling.

Beyond that, the assumption (in AD&D, at least) would be that these high-level characters, with domains of their own to run, can't adventure regularly, since they've got other things to worry about.  Sure, you can leave things to the seneschal for a week or two, but who knows what kind of cock-up he'll have made of things when you return?  If anything, these characters would serve as patrons/quest-givers in a well-run campaign.

(Notice this complaint never seems to get leveled against Greyhawk?  In the folio, pretty much every listed settlement has a 9th, 10th, or higher-level character in charge - which is as it should be, with AD&D's default assumptions.  I think it's one of those things that has just become part of the culture, rather than anything that's actually there on the page.)

I think it highlights how early-on they were concerned with the idea of people just trying to metagame off the book.

RPGPundit

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;623883(Notice this complaint never seems to get leveled against Greyhawk?  In the folio, pretty much every listed settlement has a 9th, 10th, or higher-level character in charge - which is as it should be, with AD&D's default assumptions.  I think it's one of those things that has just become part of the culture, rather than anything that's actually there on the page.)

Yes, I agree.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;623883Beyond that, the assumption (in AD&D, at least) would be that these high-level characters, with domains of their own to run, can't adventure regularly, since they've got other things to worry about.  Sure, you can leave things to the seneschal for a week or two, but who knows what kind of cock-up he'll have made of things when you return?  If anything, these characters would serve as patrons/quest-givers in a well-run campaign.

It's funny that you mention that, as it just reminds me about the Duke of Dragon Reach in Tethyr. He's a 15th lvl fighter, but one of his listed intrigues is "secretly wishes to find an excuse to go adventuring again, but responsibilities demand so much attention." Gee, sounds like he's raring to go traipsing about the countryside to Mary Sue the nearest band of adventurers...

It'd take a bad GM to read this as a green light for GM PC Mary Sue.

And then there's the 0 lvl caravan merchant in Grey Box who has extensive reach in southern Vilhon Reach. Or the low level merchant of curios and spells that fronts for fencing goods around Moonsea. Both powerful, but still low level and expendable. They have a significant spread of power, but are not Holders of Power, as in creating their own safe sphere. Killable, but having very dangerous friends, these NPCs deliberately scream cloak and dagger or charm politics.

I think something about the expectation of every NPC in town ought to be zero to low level is involved. I disabuse my players of that ASAP. You don't know who has been what until you actually either a) talk to them and they open up to you, or b) fight them and find out the hard way. Option B tends to cut short the adventures of the careless very fast in my games. Choose your battles wisely.

Quote from: Opaopajr;624013I think something about the expectation of every NPC in town ought to be zero to low level is involved.

People can bitch about 3e... (and do) ...but one of the best parts of the game is the town creation rules in the DMG, which told you outright that high level NPC's are embedded in the world.

(I know they didn't do it first, or maybe even best, that's not my claim. They did it well, that's the claim.)

But that's different than having a designer's Mary Sue, or several dozen of them, permeating a setting.

Kvothe is a very interesting character to read about, but 30 of him, written as Mary Sues, not tragically flawed heroes, kind of mars the setting for a lot of people.

It's the Mary Sue part that bothers, not the presence of high level NPC's.

But how much of that is novelized bullshit coloring the setting? I honestly don't know yet for myself.

I read a few Vampire the Masquerade novels (not very good on the whole) and generally still found all the meta-plot not just ignorable, but downright forgettable. They tried to have meta-plot bad writing affect the CCG, but fan outrage quickly put that to rest.

But a CCG is such a different product than an RPG. There must be some sort of bad GM or competitive element involved to make people care so much about Mary Sues in FR. I wonder how big FR RPGA plays a factor, like perhaps One World By Night LARP did for VtM?, in making meta-plot such a poisonous thing... along with general fan asswipes bickering a setting to death.

Quote from: Opaopajr;624072But how much of that is novelized bullshit coloring the setting?

I just don't like Mary Sues. Most people don't. (Most people.)

Mind, I'm not arguing that the Forgotten Realms is bad. I'm not demanding it change. (It shouldn't have; the Spellplague seems to have been a mistake, for obvious reasons.)

I'm just saying that one can have a lvl. 20 Wiz in a settlement, without having an author-insert fantasy persona who boinks the goddess of magic on a regular basis (hence the reference to Kvothe).

Its off-putting. Nothing deeper than that.

I'm not arguing with you about the concept of Mary Sues. I do not enjoy them myself. What I am trying to hash out for my own knowledge is how much of this "Mary Sue-ness" is from external setting sources.

When I look at Grey Box, I don't get that sort of context.

When I look at 2e Lands of Intrigue, it is tightly presented as a chapter of immediately current events. And it reads like a plot summary of a pile of cheesy fantasy novel melodrama. Bad, but mercifully compacted into less than a decade of FR history and around five pages of fluff. Easily disposable. The rest is pages upon pages of good stuff, as nebulous and suggestive as Grey Box.

Mary Sues only come from context. That game product offers a passing nod to such meta-plot context and then rapidly moves on. The Mary Sue characters then get a blurb of personality, responsibilities, connections, and intrigues outside of said chapter. The blurbs are pretty solid, short, & sweet.

So far, I'm left guessing that this Mary Sue meta-plot outrage derives more from RPGA & novelization leaking in to play. I am now curious to see how bad it reduced the play value of game products later.

I'll have to experience an egregious example of gordian knot meta-plot to see how ugly this gets. Perhaps it renders it unplayable outside the tight dramatic framework. I heard The Horde campaign book was quite bad, and that was also free to download, so I'll have to check that out next. But I hate modules, so I do not know if it can answer my question.

If Mary Sues are an issue, kill Elminster.  Or have him off on extraplanar business.  Or just not home.  BAM - setting fixed!  Maybe also Khelben. *

That's all a Mary Sue is - a wish-fulfillment self-insert.  Unless someone is suggesting that Ed Greenwood sees himself as a 20th-level cavalier, or a silver-haired witch?

*Alternatively, just don't run them that way.  (Protip: You're the DM.)

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;624122If Mary Sues are an issue, kill Elminster.  Or have him off on extraplanar business.  Or just not home.  BAM - setting fixed!  [...snip...] That's all a Mary Sue is - a wish-fulfillment self-insert.  Unless someone is suggesting that Ed Greenwood sees himself as a 20th-level cavalier, or a silver-haired witch?

Ed Greenwood IS Elminster. I happened to meet Ed Greenwood and game with him before I had seen a picture of Elminster. He even showed up in his own game quite unabashedly.

Is it a Mary Sue? Yes. Is it a problem? Absolutely not. Just as DestroyYouAlot suggests, Elminster was only there as a quest-giver.

Having never read any of the fiction materials, I think it is entirely reasonable for there to be high level characters running around in the game universe committed to their own goals, reminding PCs they are not the be-all-and-end-all of the in-game universe. That these high-level NPCs are based on their designers is no different than your characters being slightly based on you.

I think the only problem with the Mary Sue issue is having your perceptions polluted by fiction and meta plot that as a character you would not have had access.

//Panjumanju

Whoa!  I remember that I only read a few of the Forgotten Realms novels when they first started appearing so I went and did a search for a FR novel list and it is legion! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Forgotten_Realms_novels)  The only FR novels that I have read are the three books of the Icewind Dale trilogy; The Crystal Shard, Streams of Silver, and The Halfling's Gem.

I definitely think that a lot of the criticisms of The Forgotten Realms Setting are colored because they are viewed through a novelization lens.  I have never used any of the high-level named characters contained in The Forgotten Realms Setting (any edition, for that matter) as Mary-Sue NPCs, and I certainly don't get that the text of grey-box edition of The Forgotten Realms Setting.

Quote from: Panjumanju;624129Is [Elminster] a Mary Sue? Yes. Is it a problem? Absolutely not. Just as DestroyYouAlot suggests, Elminster was only there as a quest-giver.

That.  Actually, now that I think of it, this advice

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;624122have [Elminster] off on extraplanar business.  Or just not home.

is explicitly spelled out in the Grey Box, in case you weren't an experienced enough DM to just do this on your own.  I totally forgot that tidbit.  

Of course, plenty of DMs have clearly ignored this advice, and the published setting takes the rap, which is sorta like blaming the makers of this knife if a bunch of kids get stabbed.

(http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2008/08/olfa_knife.jpg)

4th it's the most interesting, playable, and has the best art. Hands down.

Quote from: Drohem;624137I definitely think that a lot of the criticisms of The Forgotten Realms Setting are colored because they are viewed through a novelization lens.

This is quite possible, although there's a reason people do that: under TSR, at least, the course of the Forgotten Realms setting was basically steered not by gaming products but by the novels. This obviously wasn't true of the grey box and other early material, but once the tie-in novels really began picking up steam they became the driving force. The Time of Troubles, for instance, was basically depicted through a series of novels - so far as I remember there was no campaign published in which you could play through the Time of Troubles and even if there were the novels still provided the canonical lowdown on what happened (including who got to be the new gods).

If it's clear that the designers and publishers of a setting are seeing it through a novelisation lens, then it's hard not to take it that way yourself.

There was a series of three Avatar Trilogy modules. I can't speak for the quality however I expect they weren't very good.

I did like the books though. That was the second series I read, right after the Finder's Stone trilogy. I doubt they'd hold up so well today but at the time they were part of my introduction to the Realms.

I'm getting the whiff that this thread could be summed up as "The best edition of the Forgotten Realms is a case of 500 office paper sheets (http://www.officemax.com/office-supplies/paper/copy-multipurpose-paper/product-ARS21008?cm_sp=category%20banner-_-b2g1f-_-casepaper): 500 totally blank maps for you to fill up and nothing else: AWESOMIUM!!!!111" :rolleyes:

Quote from: Warthur;624288This is quite possible, although there's a reason people do that: under TSR, at least, the course of the Forgotten Realms setting was basically steered not by gaming products but by the novels. This obviously wasn't true of the grey box and other early material, but once the tie-in novels really began picking up steam they became the driving force. The Time of Troubles, for instance, was basically depicted through a series of novels - so far as I remember there was no campaign published in which you could play through the Time of Troubles and even if there were the novels still provided the canonical lowdown on what happened (including who got to be the new gods).

If it's clear that the designers and publishers of a setting are seeing it through a novelisation lens, then it's hard not to take it that way yourself.

Yes, I see this as well for 2e AD&D and later FR materials.  As Raven pointed out, there was a trilogy of modules set during the Time of Troubles.

Quote from: Reckall;624508I'm getting the whiff that this thread could be summed up as "The best edition of the Forgotten Realms is a case of 500 office paper sheets (http://www.officemax.com/office-supplies/paper/copy-multipurpose-paper/product-ARS21008?cm_sp=category%20banner-_-b2g1f-_-casepaper): 500 totally blank maps for you to fill up and nothing else: AWESOMIUM!!!!111" :rolleyes:

That's exactly the sort of people (DIY gaming enthusiasts) who are less inclined to like FR, and they may indeed be overrepresented here.

FR 1e feels like Ed Greenwood's home game notes. There's a nice sense of comprehensiveness and consistency but not a lot that galvanizes the imagination. Also too many high levels NPCs, which is not bad per se but it's a warning bell (and suggests to me that Mr. Greenwood as of 1987 didn't really grok the level system except as a measure of "how awesome this NPC should be", and he wants them all to be awesome. Low-level NPCs get to be awesome too!). It's pretty much the anti-Vornheim.

To be perfectly honest, after re-reading the gray box (for the Nth time) and reading FR1 and FR5, spurred by this thread, I must admit to myself and to the world that my fondness towards FR 1e has less to do with any intrinsic merit of the setting itself, and more with my sentimental memories of being enthralled by lush Elmore and Easley covers of 2e-era FR supplements, and later playing a bunch of PC games set in the Realms. In other words, plain old nostalgia.

I'd still run a game set in Luskan, though, with PCs dungeon-crawling through Old Illusk and/or smuggling and piracy across the Sword Coast, and getting caught in the intrigues of the Five Captains and the Host Tower of the Arcane between expeditions. Or a kingdom-building campaign in the Dales. There sure is room for cool gaming in the Realms, it's just that I don't see a lot that makes it stand out compared to, say, Greyhawk or Mystara.

Quote from: Raven;624322There was a series of three Avatar Trilogy modules. I can't speak for the quality however I expect they weren't very good.

I'd be interested in how they did it. Was a Dragonlance-type deal where you played the characters from the novels? Could you use your own characters and play through the plot of the novels (rather making subsequent products not very useful for your campaign unless you end up making all the choices the characters in the novels make)? Or are your characters just witnessing a whole bunch of shit going down whilst the official characters do their thing?

Quote from: Warthur;624528I'd be interested in how they did it. Was a Dragonlance-type deal where you played the characters from the novels? Could you use your own characters and play through the plot of the novels (rather making subsequent products not very useful for your campaign unless you end up making all the choices the characters in the novels make)? Or are your characters just witnessing a whole bunch of shit going down whilst the official characters do their thing?

The Avatar Trilogy of modules include:

• FRE1: Shadowdale
  
• FRE2: Tantras
  
• FRE3: Waterdeep
  

It is not like the DragonLance series of modules where you play characters from the novels.  You can play any characters in this series of modules.  They provide several characters from the novels as NPCs, and only require that one of the NPCs accompany the characters because the NPC is necessary for the plot and events.  The events in the modules are loosely based on the events in the novels and are not identical.  The characters do become intertwined with the events from the novels, but still have options to 'opt out' of continuing on in the Avatar series.

Quote from: Drohem;624544It is not like the DragonLance series of modules where you play characters from the novels.  You can play any characters in this series of modules.  They provide several characters from the novels as NPCs, and only require that one of the NPCs accompany the characters because the NPC is necessary for the plot and events.  The events in the modules are loosely based on the events in the novels and are not identical.  The characters do become intertwined with the events from the novels, but still have options to 'opt out' of continuing on in the Avatar series.

Huh, interesting.

I guess the key question is: when the novels and the modules conflicted, which were taken as being canon in later FR products?

Quote from: Reckall;624508I'm getting the whiff that this thread could be summed up as "The best edition of the Forgotten Realms is a case of 500 office paper sheets (http://www.officemax.com/office-supplies/paper/copy-multipurpose-paper/product-ARS21008?cm_sp=category%20banner-_-b2g1f-_-casepaper): 500 totally blank maps for you to fill up and nothing else: AWESOMIUM!!!!111" :rolleyes:

I don't see how that follows at all. Quite the contrary, the debate seems to be about which edition best strikes the BALANCE between an impressive plethora of material and room/space for a GM to add his own stuff to.

RPGPundit

Sure, some are looking for this balance (me among them). But just look at the poll results, match it with all the orgasmatic talk re: "1E was full of VOID for me to fill!!!!" and you get the gist.

If with 1E we actually mean "Grey Box + some key supplements", then the preference becomes more reasonable - only to be sunk anyway by all brouhaha about "the Metaplot" (AKA: the easiest think to throw out the FR for any DM worth his salt, except when it it actually useful).

Honestly, and speaking for myself, I never felt that "Info on a setting = being tied to a reclined chair and forcefully waterboarded with it". As I said, maybe that's me and others' experiences may vary. But info = ideas and choice. Void = I do better with scrap paper and an hisory book. And the Grey Box, to me, was little better than some maps packaged with vaacum.