Quote from: GameDaddy;622798The Forgotten Realms Grey Box was just.... meh.

The "surpassingly mythical" 1E Grey Box had a whole book out of two full of almost-futile fluff: NPCs, magic items, spellbooks, two introductory adventures that could have been set anywere, and some rules on movement and climates - nothing a good GM couldn't put together by himself. And I appreciate the opportunity to "put together my own campaign using my creativity!!!111" when I'm paid to do it. Why I should wank unto adult age because TSR gave me the opportunity to pay themfor what I was already doing was beyond me. GAZ 1 - Karameikos wiped the floor with the whole 1E Grey Box. Add Glantry (still an unsurpassed feat) and it is match, set, game.

FR 1E really found their stride with "Waterdeep and the North" and "The Savage Ferontier". Mystara hit it out of the ballpark right off the bat.

Thankfully for all my gaming I never got into FR. Never fell into the rpg novel crowd and never endured railroad modules and never stuck in its fan wank bickering.

In a way it's been a blessing. I got the 1e Grey Box books before I got the complete Grey Box set, so it was a nice preview before the maps. It was fun, a lot of delightful and likely disposable filler (as Reckall notes) in one book, and generally evocative of 'being in another world' mood.

Someone gave a link to WotC's old free PDF links in the wayback machine and I checked out a few more FR products. Currently I'm on 2e Land of Intrigue, write-up for Tethyr & Amn. So far I think it's even better than the 1e box in value. Granted the Current History chapter of both are festooned in what sounds like badly novelized fan wank converted for play use, but it's wholly ignorable and takes up so little of the plentiful pages within. If the other 2e country & region books are this solid, I think I'll have to get them

Right now I'm brainstorming on a Birthright realm management system conversion for Tethyr, Calimport, & Amn. Plenty of duchies, counties, religious holdings, NPCs and intrigues. Solid stuff to work with here.

My next read will be the Horde sourcebook, and then maybe the Horde campaign.

If I were ever to run an FR campaign - and there's a certain itch I have that I'll admit it would scratch - it would be using the 1e materials. Specifically: the gray box and FR1 Waterdeep and the North, FR3 Empires of the Sands, FR5 The Savage Frontier, and FR6 The Red Wizards of Thay. They're a bit uneven, and I definitely wouldn't go near FR2 The Moonshaes in play, but those early supplements are full of good game-worthy details, and did a good job of making the Realms a setting you could roleplay in.

The 2e materials, and I particularly remember the City of Splendors box being egregious in this, are so full of high-level personalities and canon details that you get the "Why bother?" syndrome - there are so many characters who simply go beyond levels stated in the rules, what can your PCs do to even be mildly relevant? At the same time it got rid of some interesting evil deities and collapsed their portfolios into a single lame god. Faiths & Avatars had fascinating details but damn if it didn't overpower the priest characters. I don't like 3e or 4e and wouldn't be up to going through their Realms.

Also: I wouldn't play with anyone who knew too much about the setting. Canon was a huge problem in 2e settings, because know-it-all players would study everything and try to catch the DM doing it "wrong." Fuck that noise.

Quote from: Spinachcat;622768Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own.

Nonsense.  The 1e set was awesome on its own and was full of space that all but demanded that the GM make it his.  The other sets could all be modified to match the same, though some with more work than others.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Spinachcat;622768Forgotten Realms was always the weaksauce D&D campaign.  It was where you played when your DM had no ideas of their own.

You're gonna have to elaborate on how that makes it any different from any other non-gimmick campaign world, like, say, Greyhawk, or the Wilderlands.  

QuoteWe suffered through lots of FR 1e and 2e, but I fortunately avoided 3e.

That sounds like a DM issue, more than something related to a campaign setting.  What did he do that you didn't like?

 

QuoteThe Spellplague of 4e made the setting a bit more interesting

CITATION NEEDED

Quote from: Cadriel;623058The 2e materials, and I particularly remember the City of Splendors box being egregious in this, are so full of high-level personalities and canon details that you get the "Why bother?" syndrome - there are so many characters who simply go beyond levels stated in the rules, what can your PCs do to even be mildly relevant?

Interesting bit of trivia:  In comparing 1e and 2e products for possible inclusion in our current Realms campaign (most notably FR1 Waterdeep and the North vs. the City of Splendors box, and FR5 The Savage Frontier vs. the later "The North" boxed set) I noticed two things:

1) The 2e versions often added very little in the form of content, but simply padded out the wordcount on the earlier material, threw in a few novel references and metaplot updates, and made up the rest on huge margins and aggressively so-so art.

2)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;6233672)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Well, 2E was set some years down the timeline: I think it is fair to assume that NPCs had gained some levels in the intercourring years.

There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;623412There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

Perhaps the last ever time it was suggested that a FR NPC might be less powerful than expected.

Quote from: The Were-Grognard;623412There was an obscure guideline in the Grey Box where you rolled a die (can't remember which) to see whether an NPC's levels were higher or lower than the one listed in the entry, to simulate rumor and hearsay about the character.

I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;623367Interesting bit of trivia:  In comparing 1e and 2e products for possible inclusion in our current Realms campaign (most notably FR1 Waterdeep and the North vs. the City of Splendors box, and FR5 The Savage Frontier vs. the later "The North" boxed set) I noticed two things:

1) The 2e versions often added very little in the form of content, but simply padded out the wordcount on the earlier material, threw in a few novel references and metaplot updates, and made up the rest on huge margins and aggressively so-so art.

2)  NPC levels, almost without exception, went up by anywhere between 1 and 6 levels.

Let me be clear: I am almost certain that they literally rolled a d6 and added it to NPC levels.  Make of that what you will.  :rolleyes:

Well, also, the focus shifted from the northwestern section of Faerûn to the Dalelands with the inclusion of the village Shadowdale and gazetteer of the Dalelands.

I admittedly know little about FR products (as mentioned previously in topic), but I'm not finding the high NPC levels that much of an issue. Named level starts at lvl 9, and that's like Knight, or as I like to think of it "starter-warlord." So being in your McManor with your first entourage just means you Tiered-UP! and are now just entering the big leagues.

Why would that be a problem? It's similar to power dynamics anywhere. Only once being 'of named value' will warrant one's name to travel, otherwise who cares? A name will only be as known as its impact -- higher the power, greater the impact (spread). And given that there's already several NPCs who are high political power, but no levels, there's already a mix.

I don't see how this is an issue to PCs. In fact, it's sort of a blessing of anonymity. You don't really matter in high level politics until 9th level, or you somehow commit enough atrocities to attract negative attention. FR is BIG, and, for example, a roster of 20 or so high NPC people in all of Tethyr (of something like 3 million people) is pretty reasonable.

So you can't be the Queen or Duke by low level, and you'd have to work your way up the higher tier ranks (a.k.a. far higher than 9th lvl) to even hope to contest... so what? It's like hearing people play RPGs the first time and ask, "If I shoot the sheriff, I can take his place, right?" Um, no. That's not how large political structures work. "Deprotagonized!"

I've seen the 25th lvl Liches and 19th lvl Long-Lived Mage Queens. But again I ask, why does that seem odd? We're talking about a huge regional or temporal influence. What are players expecting? A tight spread between 9th and 12th lvl? It's a complaint that as a FR novice and long-time Birthright fan I find completely baffling.

Quote from: Drohem;623435I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

There's always multiclassing.
"Why yes he is a 5th level fighter like the book says, its just that most people don't know he's also a 9th level assassin."

Quote from: Drohem;623435I loved this guideline and chart!  You rolled 1d100 and depending on the result, the given NPC could be one level lower than printed or could be 1-4 levels higher than printed.

I loved that chart, too. It explicitly reminds the GM that all these stats are just rumors. Which brings one back to the beginning where all of this can be tailored by the GM to their own choosing. Surprising how a small reminder like that can be so useful, in more than one way.

Quote from: Opaopajr;623632I admittedly know little about FR products (as mentioned previously in topic), but I'm not finding the high NPC levels that much of an issue. Named level starts at lvl 9, and that's like Knight, or as I like to think of it "starter-warlord." So being in your McManor with your first entourage just means you Tiered-UP! and are now just entering the big leagues.

Why would that be a problem? It's similar to power dynamics anywhere. Only once being 'of named value' will warrant one's name to travel, otherwise who cares? A name will only be as known as its impact -- higher the power, greater the impact (spread). And given that there's already several NPCs who are high political power, but no levels, there's already a mix.

I don't see how this is an issue to PCs. In fact, it's sort of a blessing of anonymity. You don't really matter in high level politics until 9th level, or you somehow commit enough atrocities to attract negative attention. FR is BIG, and, for example, a roster of 20 or so high NPC people in all of Tethyr (of something like 3 million people) is pretty reasonable.

So you can't be the Queen or Duke by low level, and you'd have to work your way up the higher tier ranks (a.k.a. far higher than 9th lvl) to even hope to contest... so what? It's like hearing people play RPGs the first time and ask, "If I shoot the sheriff, I can take his place, right?" Um, no. That's not how large political structures work. "Deprotagonized!"

I've seen the 25th lvl Liches and 19th lvl Long-Lived Mage Queens. But again I ask, why does that seem odd? We're talking about a huge regional or temporal influence. What are players expecting? A tight spread between 9th and 12th lvl? It's a complaint that as a FR novice and long-time Birthright fan I find completely baffling.

Beyond that, the assumption (in AD&D, at least) would be that these high-level characters, with domains of their own to run, can't adventure regularly, since they've got other things to worry about.  Sure, you can leave things to the seneschal for a week or two, but who knows what kind of cock-up he'll have made of things when you return?  If anything, these characters would serve as patrons/quest-givers in a well-run campaign.

(Notice this complaint never seems to get leveled against Greyhawk?  In the folio, pretty much every listed settlement has a 9th, 10th, or higher-level character in charge - which is as it should be, with AD&D's default assumptions.  I think it's one of those things that has just become part of the culture, rather than anything that's actually there on the page.)