I'd like to give one of my kids the opportunity to play an old-school dungeon-exploring, monster-bashing, puzzle-solving, reward-granting FRPG. I'm an RQ buff but RQ typically demands some understanding of cultures, settings and whatnot, and I think that makes it too difficult to bake in that old-school vibe that reminds me of 1970's - 80s D&D modules for a sub-10 year old, and I and eventually want to turn the game over to my son to run with by himself (with friends or siblings).
So I am guessing get my hands on the right edition of D&D. My last D&D experience was AD&D 1st, that was many years ago and I have not even read, let alone played, subsequent editions. Before that I had the Basic and then expert boxes, but that's so long ago I couldn't say whether that was Holmes or Moldvay.
I still have my original AD&D 1e DMG, but nothing else. So ease/cost of getting hands on the materials is a consideration. And I don't want PDFs (at least not for the rulebooks), I want a physical product. Some level of future proofing in case he gets into it - ability to get more complex/interesting in the longer run.
SO:
B/X
BECMI
AD&D 1st; or 2nd?
3E, or Pathfinder?
You can get both the PH and MM of first ed for extremely reasonable prices on eBay.
Now that said, the answer to your question is "whichever D&D you feel most comfortable with." Generally, the one you started with and/or had the most fun with is the one you should use, because that enjoyment is what you want to communicate to the newbie.
AD&D1e; with the reprints from WotC you can get (very nice, gilt-edged and built-in bookmark) brand new Monster Manual and Players Handbook, but they'll cost you.
On the other hand you can pick up used copies of the 77-85 AD&D books off of Amazon or Ebay for a song, so...I'd go that route.
I'd also recommend getting more than one Players Handbook.
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;746980I'd like to give one of my kids the opportunity to play an old-school dungeon-exploring, monster-bashing, puzzle-solving, reward-granting FRPG. I'm an RQ buff but RQ typically demands some understanding of cultures, settings and whatnot, and I think that makes it too difficult to bake in that old-school vibe that reminds me of 1970's - 80s D&D modules for a sub-10 year old, and I and eventually want to turn the game over to my son to run with by himself (with friends or siblings).
So I am guessing get my hands on the right edition of D&D. My last D&D experience was AD&D 1st, that was many years ago and I have not even read, let alone played, subsequent editions. Before that I had the Basic and then expert boxes, but that's so long ago I couldn't say whether that was Holmes or Moldvay.
I still have my original AD&D 1e DMG, but nothing else. So ease/cost of getting hands on the materials is a consideration. And I don't want PDFs (at least not for the rulebooks), I want a physical product. Some level of future proofing in case he gets into it - ability to get more complex/interesting in the longer run.
SO:
B/X
BECMI
AD&D 1st; or 2nd?
3E, or Pathfinder?
I recommend either OSRIC (http://www.black-blade-publishing.com/Store/tabid/65/pid/39/OSRIC-Hardback-FIRST-Printing-.aspx), Swords & Wizardry Complete (http://talesofthefroggod.com/swords-wizardry-complete-rulebook), or Advanced Edition Companion. (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/78523/Advanced-Edition-Companion-Labyrinth-Lord?term=advanced+edition+compa)
All three them have roughly the same range of detail and are presented in a straightforward and clean.
Or just print out the combat section of the OSRIC PDF (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/) and go on ebay and buy a Player's Handbook (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XAD%26D+1st+players+handbook&_nkw=AD%26D+1st+players+handbook&_sacat=0&_from=R40) and a Monster Manual (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Monster+Manual&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.XAD%26D+1st+Monster+Manual&_nkw=AD%26D+1st+Monster+Manual&_sacat=0).
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;746980B/X
BECMI
AD&D 1st; or 2nd?
3E, or Pathfinder?
I would go for simple editions. 3e and Pathfinder seem too complicated, however there is Pathfinder Beginner Box which many say it is an excellent product as a streamlined and simple version of D&D.
Mentzer Red Box Basic D&D -It was written to teach the basics of D&D.
AD&D 2E PHB - Additional class and spell options.
AD&D 2E Monstrous Manual - Color illustrated MM with extra material for ecology and such.
AD&D 1E DMG - For treasure since you already own it.
Forget about D&D and get Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits! (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=101) from Precis Intermedia. It does exactly all the things you're looking for. There's a number of favourable reviews on The RPG Site.
B/X strikes me as the best opening salvo for this game system. I like playing 1E AD&D more, but the volume and complexity of material is significantly greater.
Under 10 years old?
Get the 1981 Moldvay box with B2 - Keep on the Borderlands.
If they keep going, go for Moldvay Expert Set
Plan on moving to the AD&D PHB, DMG, MM in a couple years.
Don't buy the new stuff, grumpy old bastards with 40+ year old eyes and decades of experience want a crisp, clean layout.
Kids want to explore the book as much as their characters will explore the game, the quirky stuff is magic when you're 9 years old.
I'd go with D&D Classic or D&D Classic-inspired retroclon (like Sword & Wizardry, which is available for free). I'd totally ignore AD&D 2nd (I don't know much about AD&D 1st, so I can't say) and all editions afterwards, since I find them too unnecessary complex for a kid (or an adult, for that matter, xD).
The Beginner Box for Pathfinder could be another good option. It's more simple that the regular game, and the artwork can be very attractive and evocative for young kids.
Finally, if you don't mind a slightly darker (but in a funny way) take on the game, you may want to try Dungeon Crawl Classics (but it probably works best for kids with 10-years and up).
Also, if you are going to play with your kid alone, you may want to check Scarlet Heroes (you can play a few sessions only using the free Quickstart), since it's focuses on single player games.
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;746980I'd like to give one of my kids the opportunity to play an old-school dungeon-exploring, monster-bashing, puzzle-solving, reward-granting FRPG. I'm an RQ buff but RQ typically demands some understanding of cultures, settings and whatnot, and I think that makes it too difficult to bake in that old-school vibe that reminds me of 1970's - 80s D&D modules for a sub-10 year old, and I and eventually want to turn the game over to my son to run with by himself (with friends or siblings).
For under 10, I think you definitely want to get one of the boxed sets and not hardbound books. I have no strong opinions about the different Basic Set variants. I used the Pathfinder boxed set for my son and nephews when they were 10-ish. I thought it was pretty well put together for kids - though the Pathfinder full game is definitely not.
All of the boxed sets are a little tough for under-10, though. You might consider more simplified RPGs designed for those ages. I have listed some here:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/kids.html
If you can get hands on the old basic set Red Box, or the basic rules D&D cyclopedia; the artwork is perfect for that age group as are the rules.
I'll second the opinion to go with Basic and Expert D&D. My friends and I started with the red box and went from there. Yeah, start with simple adventures such as Keep on the Boarderlands, Village of Hommlett, Palace of the Silver Princess, maybe the one with the pyramid in the desert (damn, what was that called?)
I don't know. Maybe I'm prejudiced but I've seen kids 10 and under try to play the game and it's just so... ewwwww. So raw and simple. Ever watch an 8 year old play WoW? Kinda like that. Half of me just wants to say "No! Stop! Don't teach him gaming until he's at least 11." Maybe kids today are different and can handle the concepts better. I dunno, I stay away from them. (My friends and I started D&D around age 12 and today I think back and cringe at half the stuff we did.)
Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide.
Village of Homlet baby; that's where it's at! Maybe my favorite low-level, old school adventure.
Quote from: Doughdee222;747009Maybe I'm prejudiced but I've seen kids 10 and under try to play the game and it's just so... ewwwww. So raw and simple. Ever watch an 8 year old play WoW? Kinda like that. Half of me just wants to say "No! Stop! Don't teach him gaming until he's at least 11." Maybe kids today are different and can handle the concepts better.
In my experience, kids under 10 can play RPGs run by older folks just fine - but I'd agree that it can be cringe-worthy when they're running games for each other.
For my son, I kept him mostly on RPG-like games like Talisman when he was younger than 10. He's never tried GMing yet.
I'm a B/X and BECMI/RC guy. I got my start with the 1991 D&D Introductory Set a.k.a. "black box" and graduated to the D&D RC a few months later. So I'm naturally inclined to suggest Labyrinth Lord.
To be honest, though, maybe you should just pick up the prettiest book you find, with non-horrible rules. Hell, maybe the Pathfinder Beginner's Box is the best choice, with its pared-down d20 rules and shiny new school art. Never underestimate the power of shiny.
Thanks all - good advice gratefully received. I think my instinct would be to go with the advice to start with Basic (Moldvay 1981?), and leave the door open to jump off into an Advanced edition.
I did find that digging around to work out what edition to run with just left me a bit bemused, as there are plenty of sites and blogs that enumerate the specific rules difference between them but it's hard to tell if it matters. I gather that maybe 3e/PF look like different games with all sorts of extra stuff and complexity (e.g. feats) I probably wouldn't care for - but is there really any difference between 1e and 2e so far as I'd be concerned? If migrating up from a BECMI to AD&D is it a bigger step to 2e than 1e? I only ask as it's possible 2e books might be cheaper/better condition and easier to get or might serve as an errata'd version of 1e?
I wouldn't choose based on the rules differences, which are subtle (unless you drift off into the games that are more inspired by D&D than actual D&D). The only caveat is that if you think you are likely to move toward an in print game like Pathfinder, it will be easier if you start with something recent, like the Pathfinder boxed set.
I'd just stick with RQ, because you're so comfortable with it... minimize the setting/cultural stuff you don't think they'd get... turn on any options (I'm not up on RQ6 but BRP has various switches) that make combat less deadly.
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;747033I gather that maybe 3e/PF look like different games with all sorts of extra stuff and complexity (e.g. feats) I probably wouldn't care for - but is there really any difference between 1e and 2e so far as I'd be concerned? If migrating up from a BECMI to AD&D is it a bigger step to 2e than 1e? I only ask as it's possible 2e books might be cheaper/better condition and easier to get or might serve as an errata'd version of 1e?
There is basically no difference between the core rules of AD&D 1e and 2e, though 2e has more rules expansion supplements. But again, I think any version of AD&D is too complex for under-10 year olds.
The full games of 3e/PF are more complicated than AD&D, but the Pathfinder Beginner Box is about the same complexity as earlier D&D Basic Sets, and has pretty clear and colorful instructions. I chose the Pathfinder Beginner Box in part for the nice components (full color cardstock figures and maps), and in part because Pathfinder is currently the most popular version of D&D, so by learning it, the kids would have an easier time in the future finding games/players.
I am personally fond of Castles and Crusades for younger players as the most streamlined version of AD&D I know that still retains much of its original vibe.
Quickstart can be found here for free as a PDF: http://www.trolllord.com/cnc/ccqs.html or purchased from Noble Knight Games for $6: http://www.nobleknight.com/ProductDetail.asp_Q_ProductID_E_2147384312_A_InventoryID_E_2147633872_A_ProductLineID_E_2137423876_A_ManufacturerID_E_237_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_GenreID_E_
The Quickstart has enough material for PCs of 4 classes, 3 races, up level 4.
The Players Handbook and Monsters and Treasure (the two core books needed for the full version of the game) are readily available.
Alternatively, B/X D&D is great too. I recommend Basic Fantasy as a slightly streamlined (and combined) form that is readily available in print: http://www.lulu.com/shop/chris-gonnerman/basic-fantasy-rpg-core-rules-2e-perfect-bound/paperback/product-14254311.html
When I've run games for my kids and their friends, they are hardly aware of what system (if any) is being used. I'll just sort of 'teach by doing' when it comes to the mechanics attacks and so forth, and talk to them informally about the sort of character they want, while filling in a character sheet to more or less match what they are saying. I think it starts things off on the right foot to not really even have rule books out on the table, and just let the referee/grown up handle all that jazz. The kids are just dealing with the figures and dice and conversation. With this approach, it really doesn't matter what you pick as a game system, so long as it doesn't require too much mechanical decision making from the players.
Copies of B/X D&D can be found fairly easily. However, some of the better modules, like B10 Night's Dark Terror, may be tougher to find in hard copy.
If you want to wait until August, the next version of D&D (5E) is being targeted at lapsed players looking for something easier to run than the last two editions (3E and 4E). Judging from the playtest, it will be easier to introduce new players to than AD&D. And the release will include an introductory boxed set.
Keep in mind that this forum is pretty hostile to WotC, but there are merits to running an in-print, commercially supported game.
I have found that Tunnels & Trolls is much more engaging for young kids. It's simple, fun and deadly and involves throwing a handful of dice to quickly chop up the enemy. And its "easy math" of adding numbers which enforces grade school skills too.
For ease of play. Moldvay BX D&D. PDFs are officially still for sale for about 5$ each I think so get Basic and Keep on the Borderlands and see of it works, then move to eXpert and proceed. Then you can try more advanced stuff later.
If you think a light PA setting would work then 2nd Ed Gamma World is very easy to get into and does not have the bleak tones of later versions. Harder to come by though.
BX and Gamma World 2nd ed were pretty much THE family games for us for RPGs
Quote from: Spinachcat;747071I have found that Tunnels & Trolls is much more engaging for young kids.
Oh yeah! T&T would be a fun option. As I recall the names of the spells are a lot more whimsical too... the whole thing is less 'serious'.
Is your son a gamer? Or are you wanting to make him a gamer?
Try a different gateway drug: Fighting Fantasy game books, or something like that. THEN go for an RPG.
As for the RPG.... I'm going to buck the trend. Go and get something D&D Next related. Strip out all the guff, roll high, play quick and simples.
Use it for a dungeon crawl pulled from Dragonsfoot.org or a WoTC reprint. That way you can go forward with the "old school crawl" idea and prep the kid for the latest iteration of D&D. From there he can decide to bloat the rules out with feats, minis, and all the rest or keep it low key.
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;746980B/X
BECMI
AD&D 1st; or 2nd?
3E, or Pathfinder?
I'd recommend the Pathfinder Beginner Box to start with, it's the best fantasy intro RPG on the market. Has 5 levels so you have flying, fireballing wizard PCs at the high end. After that, hard to say. Personally, right now I'm into the OSRIC retro-clone of D&D - plenty of class options, clearer presentation than the original books, free pdf and cheap to buy a hardcopy off (currently) rpgnow. Or if you like more complex games, transitioning to Pathfinder could work - I've been running it with my nearly-7-yr-old, but basically handling the rules stuff for him; which I've found is a lot easier than my Pathfinder group where the players handle their own PCs!
Quote from: Larsdangly;747063With this approach, it really doesn't matter what you pick as a game system, so long as it doesn't require too much mechanical decision making from the players.
Agreed - kids can roleplay fine without having to know the mechanics. My son likes playing Wizards and it makes little difference if it's B/X or Pathfinder - he casts Charm Person. In fact I've seen him think outside the box and do cool stuff that a rules-bound player wouldn't have thought of.
Quote from: Benoist;746981Now that said, the answer to your question is "whichever D&D you feel most comfortable with." Generally, the one you started with and/or had the most fun with is the one you should use, because that enjoyment is what you want to communicate to the newbie.
This may be the best answer I have read on this site.
Moldvay B/X. Or if you want a complete game derived from it, Adventurer, Conqueror, King.
I just recently used Dungeon Crawl Classics to introduce my girlfriend to RPGs. Granted, she's not a small child, but as a newbie she instantly understood the simple and intuitive skeleton that DCC lays out. It took her 7 seconds to grok Mighty Deeds of Arms, whereas Feats would have made her eyes glaze over. I think mechanical complexity is what overwhelms many new/young players. Then again, as a kid I was drawn to AD&D1e in part because of Gygax's weird syntax and disorganization. It was a puzzle I wanted to figure out. I guess it really just boils down to the personality of the person (attention span, frustration threshold, etc.)
Quote from: RabidWookie;747202I just recently used Dungeon Crawl Classics to introduce my girlfriend to RPGs. Granted, she's not a small child, but as a newbie she instantly understood the simple and intuitive skeleton that DCC lays out. It took her 7 seconds to grok Mighty Deeds of Arms, whereas Feats would have made her eyes glaze over. I think mechanical complexity is what overwhelms many new/young players. Then again, as a kid I was drawn to AD&D1e in part because of Gygax's weird syntax and disorganization. It was a puzzle I wanted to figure out. I guess it really just boils down to the personality of the person (attention span, frustration threshold, etc.)
Without wanting to derail this thread, I'm curious: did you play the character funnel or just started with Lv1 characters?
Speaking as someone who started with white box and then 1e before moving onto other systems...
I'd recommend Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert. It's been cloned as Labyrinth Lord, which I believe you can download for free and buy in hard copy. There is a supplement (AEC) that's supposed to make it equivalent to AD&D if you wish.
IMO there's enough detail there to support real campaigning, yet the rules are compact and the presentation is very clear without being infantilized.
My second choice would be the equivalent of White Box plus supplements, but not the actual thing. I think Swords & Wizardry Complete.
The thing I like about these statements of the game is they cover everything, without imposing unnecessary detail. I haven't actually read many of the neo-dungeoncrawling games but my impression is they're circumscribed in a way. With white box you had a framework to play from with DM judgment and you could see a way forward to expanding the game or adding detail if you wished. The neo-stuff (not retro-clones, but many of the games that claim a retro "feel" while offering "modern mechanics") seem rather pat.
One other suggestion I'd have is to look at Kevin Crawford's games. For fantasy, that would be Red Tide. I wasn't too crazy about the premise so I haven't bought it yet, but after reading through Other Dust I think he has an excellent handle on mechanics and campaign prep.
If you are going to start with Moldvay Basic, have PCs die at -10 hp, unconscious at 0 hp (as in AD&D), or else start above 1st level. Dying from the first blow of the first goblin just isn't much fun for most children.
Quote from: S'mon;747229If you are going to start with Moldvay Basic, have PCs die at -10 hp, unconscious at 0 hp (as in AD&D), or else start above 1st level. Dying from the first blow of the first goblin just isn't much fun for most children.
I think that killing a kid's character is going to be very traumatic for the kid (depends on the kid, of course), he won't care if his character took one or twenty blows before dying.
I'd personally advice against killing a kid's character, unconsciousness should be the most serious penalty that should happen to it. But again, it depends on the kid (and his age).
Quote from: Maese Mateo;747212Without wanting to derail this thread, I'm curious: did you play the character funnel or just started with Lv1 characters?
Not the queried poster, but I ran a 'funnel' style DCC game for a group of non-gamer newbies, and it was fantastic. They totally grocked the idea that they were a bunch of zero's trying to survive.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;747232I think that killing a kid's character is going to be very traumatic for the kid (depends on the kid, of course), he won't care if his character took one or twenty blows before dying.
I'd personally advice against killing a kid's character, unconsciousness should be the most serious penalty that should happen to it. But again, it depends on the kid (and his age).
One of the kids I play with pretty much flat out challenged me, started doing stuff in-game to see if I'd kill off his PC.
I played fair, let him face the consequences... his PC didn't end up getting killed, but it's in a state that's gonna have him rolling up a new one next game.
He thought it was hilarious, as did his brother.
I really don't think kids are any more likely to freak out than the average adult... in fact, based on experience, if I had to put money on it I'd expect 'adults' to generally handle it worse.
Really, my free neo-clone Dark Passages works pretty good for kids. One of the main reasons I wrote it actually. Well, that and massive bitterness I suppose.
It gives out a hit dice for level zero. This means with maximum hit points at first level, most PCs will start with around 16 hp. Makes that first goblin a bit more digestable.
I've found it cuts down on the first level whining significantly.
Still, if you want to start new players with say, Moldvay or Mentzer I'd suggest starting them at third level. More spells for the magic-user and more hit points for everyone. Then run a first level adventure.
Older versions of D&D are pretty hard core and unforgiving for today's kids. Fun, mind you, if you can accept the need to be creative and accept character death as part of the game.
Although plenty of older versions are just fine, the Pathfinder Beginner Box, as mentioned, would work pretty well. One of the reviews here (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8osv?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Beginner-Box) mentions an 11 year old having a ton of fun with it. You can get a PDF for $10, although the full box ($35) ships with tokens, dice, and a battle mat. If you follow that link you can check out some previews.
Quote from: Simlasa;747297I really don't think kids are any more likely to freak out than the average adult... in fact, based on experience, if I had to put money on it I'd expect 'adults' to generally handle it worse.
I don't think it's age-dependent at all really, depends on the person. My son Bill (about to turn 7) is very good at not dying, but I'll certainly kill his PCs - only managed it once so far; and I was fairly generous allowing a raise dead after the last of his companions still standing killed the monster (it was a ridiculously overpowered fight, a tough CR 4 Faceless Stalker vs 3 1st level PCs, but Bill blows through even-level encounters like a true diehard). I did take all the magic loot as payment for the raise dead. :D
But I do think "you have 3 hp and die at 0" is not a great idea for an introductory RPG.
Quote from: David Johansen;747338Still, if you want to start new players with say, Moldvay or Mentzer I'd suggest starting them at third level. More spells for the magic-user and more hit points for everyone. Then run a first level adventure.
For my BECMI campaign with Bill I ran him as a solo PC and started him as MU 4, which gave him a reasonable array of spells. He asked for a dragonrider campaign, so he also started with a white dragon. :cool: We ran Karameikos stuff, mix of politics & fighting, Bill's PC married into the royal family, and then X1 Isle of Dread (dragon stayed in Karameikos) with him leading a small army of mostly Ftr1 mooks, trying to keep them alive (not easy!).
Quote from: Maese Mateo;747232I think that killing a kid's character is going to be very traumatic for the kid (depends on the kid, of course), he won't care if his character took one or twenty blows before dying.
I'd personally advice against killing a kid's character, unconsciousness should be the most serious penalty that should happen to it. But again, it depends on the kid (and his age).
My first ever game, the GM went out of his way to stick me in a no-win scenario, in the hopes that it would discourage me from getting further involved in the hobby.
Didn't work.
I think it is the GMs duty to NOT kill any PC - unless characters act without any due regard.
I'd say Tunnels & Trolls is a very good starting point for kids.
However, if you want to keep within the limits of D&D (or D&D-like) I think the Basic Fantasy retro clone is a very good choice: http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/basicfantasy (http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/basicfantasy)
You can buy the book and some modules (if you need any) in hardcopy at lulu and the basic fantasy site (//www.basicfantasy.org) has a crapload of optional supplements in pdf if you get a campaign rolling and want to expand in more "advanced" territory.
Quote from: S'mon;747342But I do think "you have 3 hp and die at 0" is not a great idea for an introductory RPG.
I don't think Tomb of Horrors is very good as an introductory scenario either, but I once saw it run as such... some folks came back next session, some didn't.
Quote from: Maese Mateo;747212Without wanting to derail this thread, I'm curious: did you play the character funnel or just started with Lv1 characters?
She's heard me whine about modern RPG's for a while, and recently said she wanted me to show her how it used to be done back in the day. I let her pick out a couple sets of polyhedrals and a set of Zocchi dice, tracked her down an early 80's Crown Royal bag on Ebay, and then ran the Portal to the Stars funnel, followed by the People of the Pit for her characters that survived.
I was nervous that she might get turned off by a funnel as her first game, but she really got into the premise of sending a bunch of peons into a dungeon to separate the wheat from the chaff. Her characters that survived are more special to her now. She carries the Crown Royal bag as a badge of honor and calls my buddies that scoff at DCC's lack of feats "crybaby pussies", it's fantastic. She's been playing for a week and she's already a grognard!
Thanks to everyone who pitched in with advice here.
I picked up a BECMI (without the 'I' or the boxes) pretty cheaply on ebay, and tho that's far more D&D than I need right now...well it was a better price than Basic on its own still in box. All this should also push enough of my nostalgia buttons to see through giving my son - and I suspect one or two of his siblings - a go. If he likes it I will eventually follow the other advice here and pick up Pathfinder or, by that time, D&D 5e so he can run with a live supported product line and dad can settle back into his RuneQuest armchair, occasionally peering over the top of his newspaper to see what the kids are up to.
Quote from: Iron Simulacrum;748002Thanks to everyone who pitched in with advice here.
I picked up a BECMI (without the 'I' or the boxes) pretty cheaply on ebay, and tho that's far more D&D than I need right now...well it was a better price than Basic on its own still in box.
Mentzer worked very well for me when I ran it with my son, but I went for more of an 'Emore cover art' feel, to avoid any feeling of bait & switch. So it was more heroic clean high fantasy, he got to start at 4th level M-U, riding a dragon, saved the kingdom (Grand Duchy of Karameikos), married a princess, etc.
Having now run DCC for a party that included a 9-year old, I can safely say that at that age at least, there are kids who have no problem whatsoever with complexity, and on the contrary, both 'get' and enjoy the complexity more than many of the adults.
Quote from: RPGPundit;748667Having now run DCC for a party that included a 9-year old, I can safely say that at that age at least, there are kids who have no problem whatsoever with complexity, and on the contrary, both 'get' and enjoy the complexity more than many of the adults.
Not long ago, I was looking through some old games and came across my boxed set of Top Secret. The rules were almost incomprehensible to me, yet I found a bunch a character sheets my 12 year old self had made, along with maps and campaign notes. So, apparently, I fully grasped the game back then without issue which makes me ponder if adults simply get mentally lazy as they age.
Quote from: Brad;748945So, apparently, I fully grasped the game back then without issue which makes me ponder if adults simply get mentally lazy as they age.
I know some kids who cannot be bothered with even the most simple boardgame rules... and others that eat that stuff up, memorizing stuff for no real purpose. Same goes for older folks I know.
I myself have moved in and out of being interested in crunchy wargames several times... when I'm not in the mood I lose the will to focus my attention on that stuff and it just looks like gibberish.
Quote from: Brad;748945Not long ago, I was looking through some old games and came across my boxed set of Top Secret. The rules were almost incomprehensible to me, yet I found a bunch a character sheets my 12 year old self had made, along with maps and campaign notes. So, apparently, I fully grasped the game back then without issue which makes me ponder if adults simply get mentally lazy as they age.
I think that what's more likely is that kids are more prone to being attracted to mechanics for their own sake.
Quote from: RabidWookie;747553She carries the Crown Royal bag as a badge of honor and calls my buddies that scoff at DCC's lack of feats "crybaby pussies", it's fantastic. She's been playing for a week and she's already a grognard!
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Quote from: RPGPundit;748985I think that what's more likely is that kids are more prone to being attracted to mechanics for their own sake.
That could be it. Also, I remember how long it took to save up to buy a new game, so I was hellbent on figuring stuff out. I learned how to play Starfleet Battles over a weekend after dropping $60 on it. Considering my after-school job paid about $25/week, this was a considerable sum of money.
I started playing around 11 or 12, and I remember that at the time I certainly thought that the MORE rules something had, and the more complex those rules, the better a game it must be!
It took me about two or three years, and run ins with some games where I realized that the rules actively got in the way of what I wanted and were not as fun as D&D or Palladium (GURPS, Rolemaster, etc), and a couple of truly awful rules-heavy games (Cyborg Commando!) before I learned some valuable lessons about the limits of my initial theory.